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Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
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It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
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Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
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So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
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Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.
Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.
Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
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Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.
Read it and post your opinions on the matter.
http://piratemw.blogspot.com/
I feel it covers ground and is fair to all sides.
2 spelling mistakes in the first sentence alone makes me think it's the gibbering of an idiot.
Didn't bother reading the rest.
To be honest, I don't think "the best article" on anything "to date" will ever appear on a blogspot site.
Moved as not software release.
elyl said:
2 spelling mistakes in the first sentence alone makes me think it's the gibbering of an idiot.
Didn't bother reading the rest.
To be honest, I don't think "the best article" on anything "to date" will ever appear on a blogspot site.
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it may not be the best but it may worth be reading.everybody is not fluent in english
dummy
elyl said:
2 spelling mistakes in the first sentence alone makes me think it's the gibbering of an idiot.
Didn't bother reading the rest.
To be honest, I don't think "the best article" on anything "to date" will ever appear on a blogspot site.
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What spelling mistakes? You dont even know english and your talking about me. Stupid mofo hahahaha
No need to throw insults about like that
EDIT: Just read it. The ultimate truth? No. I see A LOT of 'good' software that has been pirated, that has come from big developers and the little guy just starting out. They crack for fun/addiction/because they think they are rebels etc, whatever the reason they will do it because THEY CAN, not because there are ethics involved. Seriously, which major company went "Hey guys, our software got pirated on the first day and we didn't make any money from it, let's release something truly innovative so they won't pirate it." Sorry, that is NOT the 'ultimate truth'.
What a pointless article (IMO).
this is bull ****. there are lots of apps cracked that cost only like $10 made by some developer that only has this tiny simple but cool app that most find usefull. So this developer gets 1000 apps sold over 1.000.000 cracked downloads.
Now lets just steel that new Toyota car because it's only a little design change from the last model and some minor changes to the breaks system.
zarpy said:
What spelling mistakes? You dont even know english and your talking about me. Stupid +++ hahahaha
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Please refrain from using bad lenguage and insulting your fellow members
the response
Ok
1) If you read the whole summary of the truth about piracy Iam not saying piracy is good on a whole level. But if there was no piracy , the games made would be old rehashed garbage. Look at Gameloft games for windows mobile. They basically make the same game over and over with different graphics. That to me is theft selling us non-sense with pretty package.
I know people from both sides of this war. Developers from xda-developers,ppc geeks, and pirates like ppcwarez . Iam not going to sit here and say lets take the developers side on all issues. Thats non-sense , Iam a freeware developer myself , with commercial software too. One-sided thinking will just continue the war. I do support the independent developers , for they make truely innovative original software.
As far as the insult...the man called me out 1st...I just responded.
zarpy said:
Ok
1) If you read the whole summary of the truth about piracy Iam not saying piracy is good on a whole level. But if there was no piracy , the games made would be old rehashed garbage. Look at Gameloft games for windows mobile. They basically make the same game over and over with different graphics. That to me is theft selling us non-sense with pretty package.
I know people from both sides of this war. Developers from xda-developers,ppc geeks, and pirates like ppcwarez . Iam not going to sit here and say lets take the developers side on all issues. Thats non-sense , Iam a freeware developer myself , with commercial software too. One-sided thinking will just continue the war. I do support the independent developers , for they make truely innovative original software.
As far as the insult...the man called me out 1st...I just responded.
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Very interesting
Just make donateware
I immediately think that you're trying to get traffic to your own website rather than discuss the matter here. So rather than go there and read it, I'll discuss it here at XDA, where I'd rather keep my attention and loyalty.
Any law that basically says making a mixed tape for someone else is illegal is complete garbage and media companies can take it and shove it up their a**.
Any law that says I cannot "loan" a movie to someone else, even a complete stranger, and that I have to be responsible for the actions of the person I loaned it to is complete garbage and media companies can take it and shove it up their a**.
Any law that says I'm responsible for what happens to something I loaned someone else is complete garbage and media companies can take that law and shove it up their a**.
Any law that tells me what I can or cannot do with my own property is complete garbage and media companies can take it and shove it up their a**.
Stop enforcing 100-year-old copyright law for media medium that doesn't fit into the law.
Donate to the EFF
http://www.eff.org/
Rorymeadows
Ok rorymeadows
1) The link i provided is not to my website but to my blog. All you do is read blogs not join them. My website is www.krenisiswinmobilegamesapps.com and I didnt direct anyone there
2) You blame me saying Iam redirecting people and your loyal to xda-developers? If your so loyal to xda , why are you posting a redirect and telling people to donate to another website? Before you call someone out, check yourself.
Everything else you said , I agree with.
zarpy said:
Ok rorymeadows
1) The link i provided is not to my website but to my blog. All you do is read blogs not join them. My website is www.krenisiswinmobilegamesapps.com and I didnt direct anyone there
2) You blame me saying Iam redirecting people and your loyal to xda-developers? If your so loyal to xda , why are you posting a redirect and telling people to donate to another website? Before you call someone out, check yourself.
Everything else you said , I agree with.
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EFF is a professional organization. Yours is a shameless plug for a teen online journal. Please stay on topic.
OP's blog said:
Its you who forces companies to make better and innovative software hoping if they make great software, then people will buy them.
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Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. By the same reasoning, stealing televisions should force the manufacturers to make better ones. That is simply wrong.
Not to offend, but to be clear, I find your arguments blinkered and naive. Piracy has very little to do with sticking it to big companies. 99% of the time it's about getting something for free.
johncmolyneux said:
Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. By the same reasoning, stealing televisions should force the manufacturers to make better ones. That is simply wrong.
Not to offend, but to be clear, I find your arguments blinkered and naive. Piracy has very little to do with sticking it to big companies. 99% of the time it's about getting something for free.
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I agree. It's not about sticking it to big companies. It should be about revolution with digital media and laws, and electronic freedom.
fairness
So judging by the comments so far , both of you believe hacking and cracking software only hurt companies and developers. Also you believe is there was no more software pirates, that would benefit the consumer. The major companies say the same , cracked software leads to high priced games.
1)False= cracked software does not lead to high priced games. I remember super nintendo was charging $40-$60 a game. So that is false statement.
2)Facted= Cracked and pirated software has been around since early 80's,90's . People were happy around that time period with quality of thier software, so people didnt look for free downloads or cracked software. This isnt just about games Iam including the industry as a whole. This includes movies,music,and video games.
Opinion= I believe once those 3 industries started to make rehashed and low quality products, people started looking toward pirated software. If this isnt true, then this issue would have come up a long time ago.
Now to rorymeadows , no Iam not a teen and I dont sound or act like one.
I have absolutely no idea how you got any of what you said from my post, but you're wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. You're just assuming things.
I wonder what this post will be about!
Incidentally, you should look at the technological and social changes that have taken place over the last 30 years and factor that into your opinions. Piracy is a bigger issue now simply because it's in your face, in your living room, on the internet and on your PC. 30 years ago it was kids copying tapes with games on them, but no mass forums to make it publicly available. Music was copied, but it was time consuming so not done as quickly as it is today - the same goes for movies (tape-to-tape VHS recorders for example). Times have changed, but the essence of piracy hasn't. Lots of people like stuff that costs nothing. That is the only fact you can state.
Well there's another thing going on, too.
I was browsing the Microsoft Mobile Marketplace last night. One of the programs I found up there was Resco Photo Manager. $60. $60!!!!!!! For THAT?!?!?! A program that I'd probably use 10 times a year is $60??!?!?!?!
I used to work at the college dining hall back in undergrad. People used to steal and steal, pocking pop-tarts, walking out with drinks and subs without paying. It drove the price up more. Yes, stealing jumps the overhead and makes things costlier. But did that stop the stealing? No, in fact, it made it much worse.
johncmolyneux and rorytmeadows both are correct.
/end thread.
So, some of you may have received an email requesting you fill out a short survey for a chance to be included in the beta test for the upcoming AT&T Atrix firmware update. I implore you to read this message and at least consider it.
I write this as a request to the members of the XDA community to be respectful to Motorola. Frankly, I was absolutely embarrassed to be a member of this community with how many of you handled the last beta test. Posting confidential information, breaking the NDA, posting restricted tools on the Motorola forum itself? It doesn't matter what "morals" you decide you want to follow, take it somewhere else please. That kind of behavior does nothing but HINDER our cause. If I was Motorola, and I looked at how my end users reacted to something they agreed to uphold, I wouldn't want to give them anything further. Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ, but please:
Don't break NDA.
Don't post restricted files.
Don't yell and scream and swear at Motorola.
You do nothing but make us look like fools when you do these things.
This thread is not meant to open discussion. This thread is not meant to start a flame war. This thread is my personal request to the members of the XDA community as one of the few developers actually working on the platform right now: Please be civil, and please be mature.
Thank you.
-Ririal (aka Fenrir)
I see where you're coming from, but I reserve the right to yell and cuss at whomever I want. ;-)
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
Ririal said:
So, some of you may have received an email requesting you fill out a short survey for a chance to be included in the beta test for the upcoming AT&T Atrix firmware update. I implore you to read this message and at least consider it.
I write this as a request to the members of the XDA community to be respectful to Motorola. Frankly, I was absolutely embarrassed to be a member of this community with how many of you handled the last beta test. Posting confidential information, breaking the NDA, posting restricted tools on the Motorola forum itself? It doesn't matter what "morals" you decide you want to follow, take it somewhere else please. That kind of behavior does nothing but HINDER our cause. If I was Motorola, and I looked at how my end users reacted to something they agreed to uphold, I wouldn't want to give them anything further. Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ, but please:
Don't break NDA.
Don't post restricted files.
Don't yell and scream and swear at Motorola.
You do nothing but make us look like fools when you do these things.
This thread is not meant to open discussion. This thread is not meant to start a flame war. This thread is my personal request to the members of the XDA community as one of the few developers actually working on the platform right now: Please be civil, and please be mature.
Thank you.
-Ririal (aka Fenrir)
(p.s. to moderators, if you feel I'm out of line, you may remove this thread at any point.)
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Thanks so much for posting this... i felt the exact same way
+100 (to Ririal's OP, not the clown who posted right before me)
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
basically, dont bring xda into it.
mafiaboy01 said:
Well I'm not worried about moto doing anything to me, they'll come after me as fast as there getting the bootloader unlocked.
Bite me
Sent from Motorola Atrix on TELUS.
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Its people like you that ruin the hard work others put into this and other issues we may have with companies. He didnt mention anything about them coming after one of us or any of us for that matter he simply asked us to not break NDA (something that is Legally speaking far more dangerous than you take for granted) and also to not make our community (that is to say the developer community) look like complete loser's. who would honestly want to help someone who is constantly screaming and cursing at them? I know i wouldn't and I say that from COMPLETE Experience seeing as thats EXACTLY what I do on a daily basis and I constantly make people do the harder work if they are yelling at me. so why not just get your head out of your butt and act a bit more mature about the OP and maybe be more respectful.
To the moderators,
I apologize as I know this is attacking a specific person and that is not usually something that is allowed. But people like this need to realize just the potential they hold for possibly taking down something as great as these forums. If you feel that you need to remove my post please do so, but I ask that in this case you may let me know so that I realize just how strict on these rules you may be.
caderon said:
Its people like you that ruin the hard work others put into this and other issues we may have with companies. He didnt mention anything about them coming after one of us or any of us for that matter he simply asked us to not break NDA (something that is Legally speaking far more dangerous than you take for granted) and also to not make our community (that is to say the developer community) look like complete loser's. who would honestly want to help someone who is constantly screaming and cursing at them? I know i wouldn't and I say that from COMPLETE Experience seeing as thats EXACTLY what I do on a daily basis and I constantly make people do the harder work if they are yelling at me. so why not just get your head out of your butt and act a bit more mature about the OP and maybe be more respectful.
To the moderators,
I apologize as I know this is attacking a specific person and that is not usually something that is allowed. But people like this need to realize just the potential they hold for possibly taking down something as great as these forums. If you feel that you need to remove my post please do so, but I ask that in this case you may let me know so that I realize just how strict on these rules you may be.
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Happy ?
Sent from Motorola Atrix on TELUS.
+1 fully agree with OP. Posting elements of the update will get poster in trouble and could get XDA in trouble. Also behave like a civilized person yelling and screaming as a child got you nothing and it'll do nothing now... just my 2 cents
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
decoyd said:
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
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You're not understanding what he's saying.
He's telling people who sign up for Moto's beta test, to actually follow the NDA (non-disclosure agreement), and not post the update.zip files that we are supplied as beta testers. It is against the agreement we make with Moto when we sign up and accept the beta test update. That has NOTHING to do with rooting your phone or modifying your files on your phone.
Example: I get the update, immediately pull the .zip off my internal SD card and throw it on Megaupload and post the link for everyone to have.
Doing that basically tells Motorola "F you and your beta testing", and shows that we have no intentions of working with them. All that will do is stop them from trying to work with us (and even if you don't think they are because they're not giving us the golden keys to their phone, they are still trying to work with us as a consumer in the fullest capacity they can as a commercial company).
We can have the situation where we get zero testing to updates until they're released, or even worse ZERO updates because Motorola no longer feels the consumer has any desire to work with them, or we can have a synergistic relationship going to the extent that both parties can get at least some part of their way.
Having them unlock the bootloader for us is honestly IMO never going to happen. NO phone company is doing this, so it's silly to think they will or that we deserve it. Devs are the ones who unlock or bypass bootloaders and all our Android phones; devs will find a way, a 3rd party will find a way, but Motorola has zero interest in doing that for us and to think otherwise is foolish. So what they DO give us, may help other people to figure it out and crack it themselves. But we need things to work both ways, with Moto giving a little room for us to update our software and continue on with Android's progress.
To correct some misunderstandings: You have the right to jailbreak your device, but you do not have the right to posses or share someones intellectual property without permission, or break NDA.
Agree and disagree with op. Agree because we should not be breaking such an agreement. Disagree because such an agreement should not exist in the first place.
Sent from my Atrix using XDA Premium App.
dLo GSR said:
It is against the agreement we make with Moto when we sign up and accept the beta test update. That has NOTHING to do with rooting your phone or modifying your files on your phone.
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(1) You violate (or at least I do) agreements with Motorola all the time. Why is this time different?
(2) This has EVERYTHING to do with root. The whole reason people do this is to keep phones unlocked/rooted.
dLo GSR said:
Doing that basically tells Motorola "F you and your beta testing", and shows that we have no intentions of working with them.
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(3) False. If we were given a way to obtain root or have an unlocked bootloader through official channels, you can make this argument. As the situation is quite the opposite, I don't see how this is a valid conclusion.
dLo GSR said:
All that will do is stop them from trying to work with us
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(4) I'm honestly baffled by this statement.
Saying that these activities is going to push Motorola to provide "ZERO" updates is ludicrous. Could it encourage them to not offer betas before release? Maybe, but I doubt it. They need feedback.
In the end, I just reiterate: Why draw the line at posting files from betas? SBFs are posted all the time. We violate our agreements all the time, so what's so different this time?
knigitz said:
To correct some misunderstandings: You have the right to jailbreak your device, but you do not have the right to posses or share someones intellectual property without permission, or break NDA.
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False. The point is that jailbreaking is legal, and if you read the LoC ruling I posted, you'll see that the related activities of distributing their software (e.g. sbf's) is NOT a violation of their IP. Just like using clips from a copyrighted movie in a documentary without permission is not a violation of copyright. NDAs are no different than the EULAs which are violated left and right. What's the big difference between everyone happily violating their user agreements with Motorola and AT&T but somehow the NDA is now sacrosanct.
Added links: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/2006_statement.html and http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.html
I'd tend to agree with the OP ..
Stuff will leak, and the fact is we're all looking to get the next new thing / enhancement, but we should all demonstrate a little discretion if not for any other reason than to be practical ... The more blatant (some of the stuff on the mot forum bordered on ridiculous) the more likely the vendors will shift even more effort and resources to locking things down.
All imho, which when I last checked we're all entitled to
decoyd said:
(1) You violate (or at least I do) agreements with Motorola all the time. Why is this time different?
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Because this one isn't an implicit I-opened-the-product-box, you signed up as a beta tester, which is not a given privilege as a consumer. This is an OPT-IN test opportunity. Probably 98% of the people with the Atrix do not participate in this beta test. Like you said, we're allowed to root/jailbreak our phones technically because of the LoC ruling. That does not make you immune to breaking an NDA. Don't be ignorant. I have seen people sued and prosecuted for breaking NDAs, especially in my line of work.
I got the beta update, and I tried it, gave my feedback, and went back to 1.2.6. When someone figured out how to do root and they released the update ALL OF FIVE DAYS LATER, I updated. I do not believe that releasing the update to the masses in any way helped to re-gain root access for 4.1.57.
decoyd said:
(2) This has EVERYTHING to do with root. The whole reason people do this is to keep phones unlocked/rooted.
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While that may be true, and rooting in itself is not wrong, the process to get it by releasing a company's IP is. Geohot lost on this one with Sony. If you want the damn beta update so bad, then SIGN UP FOR IT. If you're so committed to finding root and unlocking our bootloader, THEN PARTICIPIATE in the beta. None of that requires you to break the NDA.
decoyd said:
(3) False. If we were given a way to obtain root or have an unlocked bootloader through official channels, you can make this argument. As the situation is quite the opposite, I don't see how this is a valid conclusion.
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You're right. Biting the hand that feeds you is a way better solution to getting what you want.
decoyd said:
(4) I'm honestly baffled by this statement.
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What, you don't understand common logic?
decoyd said:
Saying that these activities is going to push Motorola to provide "ZERO" updates is ludicrous. Could it encourage them to not offer betas before release? Maybe, but I doubt it. They need feedback.
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They don't need feedback from us. They can easily throw together a small focus group or do in-house testing or carrier testing that doesn't include us. Most companies work that way. We were fortunate to have Moto decide to include the general public.
decoyd said:
In the end, I just reiterate: Why draw the line at posting files from betas? SBFs are posted all the time. We violate our agreements all the time, so what's so different this time?
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You're opting in for this test. If you can't handle the rules and regulations, then don't do it and just wait and whine until the actual update is released. I can't remember anyone complaining of signing up for the Beta and not getting in, so if you want the damn file, then sign up and get to work.
And thank you for ignoring about 50% of my post.
decoyd said:
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
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And I have to laugh at how you didn't even read what the post was about.
This is about the beta test, nothing more, nothing less. The entirety of the test is enclosed under an NDA, which regardless of your personal or moral standards, is a legally binding contract and should not be broken. Last time there was a beta test, users willingly and knowingly broke the NDA and posted the confidential information all over the forums. Most of those threads were shut down immediately. When I root my device, I'm not breaking a signed agreement that says I won't root my device. It's not even close to the same thing, you're overgeneralizing the subject. I'm talking about a very specific thing here, not android hacking in general.
Also, an NDA is a legally binding contract, and it IS illegal to break. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement
dLo GSR said:
Having them unlock the bootloader for us is honestly IMO never going to happen. NO phone company is doing this, so it's silly to think they will or that we deserve it. Devs are the ones who unlock or bypass bootloaders and all our Android phones; devs will find a way, a 3rd party will find a way, but Motorola has zero interest in doing that for us and to think otherwise is foolish. So what they DO give us, may help other people to figure it out and crack it themselves. But we need things to work both ways, with Moto giving a little room for us to update our software and continue on with Android's progress.
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Then why is HTC so responsive to 3rd party devs? (Excluding Thunderbolt, wtf is with that) I have Cognition on my Captivate, and CM7 on my Inspire. So forgive me if I decide to disagree with you that it's not silly to want an unlocked bootloader.
Especially on my captivate. The thing is complete crap without Cognition. Yet I was able to easily install ROM manager and Cognition and slap it on there. It's only Motorola right now that are big enough pricks to do this to us. Sony gave their users a way to install ROMs. Now it's only us locked in the cage.
dLo GSR said:
If you can't handle the rules and regulations, then don't do it
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How do you justify rooting your phone? You are violating their rules and regulations. Nobody is forcing you to buy their product.
NDA's are pretty serious business. Just because Motorola doesn't sue you doesn't change this fact. Lifetime friends of mine that work at Microsoft and Google can't tell me what they are working on specifically. I've gotten used to responses like "working on Google Maps" and not bothering them for more details because I respect their NDAs.
Ririal said:
And I have to laugh at how you didn't even read what the post was about.
This is about the beta test, nothing more, nothing less. The entirety of the test is enclosed under an NDA, which regardless of your personal or moral standards, is a legally binding contract and should not be broken. Last time there was a beta test, users willingly and knowingly broke the NDA and posted the confidential information all over the forums. Most of those threads were shut down immediately. When I root my device, I'm not breaking a signed agreement that says I won't root my device. It's not even close to the same thing, you're overgeneralizing the subject. I'm talking about a very specific thing here, not android hacking in general.
Also, an NDA is a legally binding contract, and it IS illegal to break. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement
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OK, I know this is kinda weird, but I live mostly on XDA these days, so thought I'd ask here in OT.
And I see the forum doesn't want me to ask a question in a non Q&A forum, but I see a "Boxers or Briefs ?" question, and this is supposed to be an OT forum, so...
I'm looking for tips or references to websites or lawyers etc.
I check the Social Security Death Index on the net every so often, and just found out my "estranged, biological" father died in November.
No need for consolations as I never knew him. I showed up on his doorstep 11 years ago to meet him for the first time. And he's a jerk for never even bothering to write to me once.
I believe he had some assets, but likely not too, too much in the grand scheme of things. Likely less than a house is worth. Perhaps.
But for all I know, he may have had a will, or there was next to nothing left. I'm sure I can find plenty of local (Canada) lawyers ready to take hundreds of dollars an hour from me, but if anyone has any tips or references to websites or whatever I'm open to suggestions. I'm happy to learn things on my own, but my app and lots of other things need my time too.
For reference, I think he likely died in or near Arizona but most of his assets may have been with a Bank of America branch in the LA, California area. I had some very helpful telephone contact with Bank of America in the past, so I guess I'll call them tomorrow. And he was a veteran of WW II.
And my situation could be complicated by the facts that I was born in the US, and lived there my first year of life, but have been in Canada since then and now have both citizenships.
I hate that the US and the IRS likely still sees me as a potentially taxpaying American. I gave up over a grand worth of with-holding taxes once to avoid getting involved with the IRS. But perhaps this will force my hand...
Any thoughts welcome. No condolences please, other than any mild commiserations offered for the millions of us who were raised in the challenging circumstances of a single parent house-hold.
I would call the SSA or maybe consult a lawyer. (actually, DEFINITELY consult a lawyer) I know you don't wanna do that but estate/inheritance law, is well....extremely complicated.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
i seriously doubt you'll get anything worthwhile
specially when he didn't even give a damn about contacting you
in the even he did make a step bro or sis over there, chances are all whatever little is left has gone to them, If any
remember, you are dealing wit US of A, the IRS are like vultures whenever there's a death, and no will or immediate US of A family member to take care of his business
a chunk of it would probably have gone to taxes and collectors if he had any outstanding debt, the house if any might possibly still be on a mortgage and has landed on default to the bank, heck it might have even been double mortgaged considering how the cost of living is in the US of A
also any medical fees would have probably also come out of it
dude, you have a hard up hill battle to fight to get anything worthwhile back.
good luck on your endeavours
Babydoll25 said:
I would call the SSA or maybe consult a lawyer. (actually, DEFINITELY consult a lawyer) I know you don't wanna do that but estate/inheritance law, is well....extremely complicated.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
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Thanks.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of the Social Security Administration. I'm not sure exactly what they could do for me though.
Today I sent some questions to the Veterans Administration via their web form.
I also had a nice 12 minute chat with somebody in the Bank of America "estate" department, or whatever they call it. They will be sending me some sort of package, perhaps once they figure out what happened with his account.
Yeah, I know the advice is always to get or ask a lawyer. But I'm happy to get the ball rolling myself. I don't need somebody charging me $200+ an hour for making simple phone calls or emails.
As I say, there might have been a will and I'm not a beneficiary, or there may be no assets left to claim, which could easily mean $1,000 spent on a lawyer for nothing, and I can't afford that. But I'll see what I can find out from a lawyer or 2 before I sign any lawyer contract.
AllGamer said:
i seriously doubt you'll get anything worthwhile
...
in the even he did make a step bro or sis over there, chances are all whatever little is left has gone to them, If any
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Thanks, yes, I doubt it too, but I figure it's worth it to spend at least a bit of time trying to find out. In the event of a step-sibling and no will, I presume I should be entitled to a share, but that could require a legal fight, and I don't think I'd start such a fight, unless the assets were worth it and I had a good chance.
I think he didn't own any property, he rented and physical assets were likely a few old cars. But that 68 Camaro he had at one point was worth a few bucks...
Yeah, medical fees, but as a WW II veteran I'd guess he had VA coverage, but I don't know how that works.
AllGamer said:
dude, you have a hard up hill battle to fight to get anything worthwhile back.
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Yeah, I likely won't start any fight, but I'm not going to ignore the possibility that I might have a few hundred grand (at most I'm sure) coming to me. He was a "penny pincher" and many such people can have a surprising amount tucked away.
Hello everyone,
my name is Henri and I want you to gift me five thousand three hundred and eighty-nine dollars.
5437$ or about 4800€. (Rates May 13,2015 GMT)
If you have not clicked away yet, let me explain:
I live in Berlin, Germany and I am 21 years old.
When I was about 16 years old I was moderate to severe depressed. Thought about killing myself, cried myself to sleep et cetera. I don't want to go into detail with this, because you have all heard those heartbreaking stories before.
Anyway, I got over it. I did not go into therapy. Instead I decided to fix the problems which depressed me. Those were mostly that I did not have a social life at all and had a good amount of social anxiety.
I wasn't able to ask an elderly woman for the time on the streets, started sweating when people I didn't know talked to me in school and so on.
And obviously, I didn't have any female contact besides my mother and sister.
In 2011 I had a breakdown and decided that I had to change or I would eventually kill myself in a weaker moment.
I went out to fix my social life and become happy. And I succeeded.
Long story short: I pushed myself into social interactions, pushed myself to talk to girls. On this journey I found awesome friends, two especially which could not be closer to me. One of them had the same goals as I, wanted to overcome all social borders there are.
I also met a lot of great girls, eventually other guys asked me for advice.
I was the happiest person I knew.
This is when I and and the friend mentioned above decided that we could actually teach other guys to get to where we are.
We are currently building a German website where we want to give advice for young guys on talking to girls, fitness, having great sex, fashion, hygiene, motivation, discipline, managing happy relationships and ironically living a happy life.
Ironically, because right now I am depressed as f**k again. This is because I don't have money, my parents don't have enough to support me. I got a job, but I literally started crying there because I felt so miserable. At home I feel miserable because I have no money. I am working in sales without base salary.
My expenses are about 600€ a month. In Germany, parents get some money for their „childs“ as long as they study, so I get close to 200€ a month from them. 400€ left.
My options right now are :
1) „Manning up“ and work and hope that therapy fixes this.
2) Getting student loans and go to university in a field with which I will be able to pay back the roughly 20.000€ in loans, just so that I do not have to work right now and can put my energy into the website.
3) Moving back into my parent's place on the other side of the country and everything on hold. They live in small village, so I won't be able to meet and advice people, talk to girls, network etc.
I would give up everything I built here.
Yesterday I decided to give another idea a shot. The idea you are reading right now.
I figured if I could get 4800 people to give me 1€ each, I could live one year without stress.
12 months times 400€ is 4800€.
I am convinced that my website and other projects will make enough money for me after this year.
If not, and this is a very small if, I will be where I am right now again, hopefully with more valuable lessons learned, happy and therefore able to work a normal job if I have to.
You see, I am basically asking you for time. I realize that 1$/1€ isn't much, but if you gave it to everyone you'd be dead broke. I do not know how I can convince you that I deserve this money more than anyone else, but I know that all I need right now is this money to handle this situation and put all my energy into the website and hopefully helping others.
I am asking you to gift me your next coffee, ice cream cone or burger.
If just 1% of the people reading this decides to help me out with one dollar, I have to show this to 543,700 people.
This is why I actually looked up the biggest online communities and I am posting this to every single one that can somehow relate to my situation or the subjects of our site. Some just seem to have cool people in them.
As you will see, there isn't any content up yet. We already have a lot but want to publish about ten good articles for the start. And yes, this is a working-title
If this post gets removed because it violated any specific rule I understand that and want you to know that it wasn't on purpose. I also tried to post into Off-Topic or similar.
If you have any questions, I will answer them as soon as I can.
Please don't give us advice on the design or that wordpress „is bad“. I appreciate it, but I want to answer questions about the content, our goals and whatnot instead of discussing webdesign. So far we have been working on content only.
The site as it stands is just a vehicle for the donate page, since sites like „fundme“ take 30cents per donation plus fees.
Again, all I am asking for is 1$ to solve all my problems for one year.
Thank you for your time.
Mod edit: Link removed
Perhaps you should be reading the forum rules before posting stuff like this, as you were clearly aware that those exist.
CoolApps said:
Perhaps you should be reading the forum rules before posting stuff like this, as you were clearly aware that those exist.
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While many of us, myself included, sympathize with your issue, this site is not the place for raising funds for yourself. This is against forum rules and is simply not allowed.
Thread closed.