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Has anyone ever read it fully understood yet not be religious in anyway
jayjay8585 said:
Has anyone ever read it fully understood yet not be religious in anyway
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yep pretty much but it is pretty hard to apply in real life! I would like to know someone that was not on Oprah and had successfully applied those 'teachings' in real life.
The events shown in the bible hasn't even been proven, there are no hard evidents that those "events" even occurred through history.
re
I believe in a lot of things told and taught in the Bible but I also believe that there has been a lot of things added that are not true. Also I wish that It had never been changed so we could actually know the truth from when it was written.... I am not sure why there is always a new version or new testament. Also have you guys seen Zeitgiest? Although I disagree with some points it does raise some good points which are logical.
Also there is an EXCELLENT book called "Christiannity: A journey from fact to fiction" which you can read for free online.
Consider this the only warning for this thread. If it gets even slightly out of hand or inflammatory Bans will be given and the thread will be locked.
Otherwise have a nice discussion.
www.zeitgeistmovie.com
The bible is largely a book of stories and moral guidance, it's not intended to be taken literally, and if you try, then you have to face the fact that it doesn't match up to recorded history and the scientific laws of the universe.
u can understand it if u have the traditional version.. cuz its very hard with the king james version.. but i think its about wat happened and wat will happen.. ps i didnt try to be religious
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and had to read the bible front to back many times when I was a teenager (I have read 3 different bibles front to back; KJV, NWT, ASV). I would call myself agnostic and can enjoy some of the NT on a sole spiritual level, I like the whole concept of unconditional love. I however don't agree with some of the epistle such as Timothy because of their very sexist view of women.
Check out John Shelby Spong he is one of my favorite theologians. He has a very interesting concept on Christianity.
JimmyMcGee said:
Consider this the only warning for this thread. If it gets even slightly out of hand or inflammatory Bans will be given and the thread will be locked.
Otherwise have a nice discussion.
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boy, you sure know how to take all the fun out of a religious debate! chairs flying, fists swinging, and mouths running off so bad Vince Vaughn would have to put on earmuffs (Old School), that's the only way I know how.
datacrime said:
I believe in a lot of things told and taught in the Bible but I also believe that there has been a lot of things added that are not true. Also I wish that It had never been changed so we could actually know the truth from when it was written.... I am not sure why there is always a new version or new testament. Also have you guys seen Zeitgiest? Although I disagree with some points it does raise some good points which are logical.
Also there is an EXCELLENT book called "Christiannity: A journey from fact to fiction" which you can read for free online.
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that is the excuse given (band-aid applied) to the increasingly ancient book known as the bible. The more modern civilization gets, the more we realize the bible's author wasn't god. It's quite understandable anyway, if I tried to write a bible of my own now, it would reflect all of the prevailing beliefs and scientific data of today. Fast forward two thousand years, say, about half of the things i wrote would make no sense in light of new discovery, and the other half could potentially be taken literally. Believers in my book, in order to maintain the infallibly of it, would be forced to say that the incorrect/incoherent parts were added on afterwards by mischievous hoodlums. It's similar to Orwell's 1984, where the truth is not based on some objective facts (i.e. history or the bible) but rather it is subjectively decided and controlled by those in power (Party members or priests).
Anyway, I hope I not offended anyone (so I don't get banned), although normally, I am not quite this tame (I place much credence in the first chapter of Dawkins' "The God Delusion," please read).
I think the problem is that Jay asked a bit of a loaded question right out of the gate. The bible is different things to different people. The way I understand isn't the way a atheist understands it, isn't the way a Christian understands it etc..etc.
The better question is do you mean "understand" in a purely scholarly way?
morning burgertime
i meant has anyone read the bible and fully understood it, while no being religious. ie are you athiest and read the bible im just curious as to how many havent read the bible
like the guy two messages ago says the more modern civilisation get you realise the author wasnt god
i think we all knew that as moses and all others wrote it and centurys have edited it, all i wsas asking is have any none religious bible read and understood the bible
im reading kjv and understand it fine
i wasnt wanting a debate as such just a curiosity and a guess at how many non beleivers blast bible ethics and religion but have never read them in person
Oh ok, in that case then yes. I prefer either the ASV or the NIV for ease of reading.
answer to question is: yes.
i am extremely well versed in the bible (straight from the original hebrew text, and also quite knowledgeable is ancient jewish bible commentators), and no, i don't believe a word of it. i do not know much about the new testament however.
I've tried reading the bible... No better way to fall asleep. I felt like I was reading a dictionary, no interest or belief whatsoever. Not meant to offend anyone, but I really could never see myself reading it front to back knowing I would never use any of it.
kingabraham3 said:
answer to question is: yes.
i am extremely well versed in the bible (straight from the original hebrew text, and also quite knowledgeable is ancient jewish bible commentators), and no, i don't believe a word of it. i do not know much about the new testament however.
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Have you ever heard the theories about the story of Jonah being a way for the old testament to seagway into the new testament? That sort of stuff fascinates me, how they had to explain away the difference in the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
Understanding is God Given
This is an interesting debate. I have read the Bible several times and understand more each time I read it. The Bible teaches that understanding comes from God which some might see as a cop out but I truly understand much more now as a Christian than I did before. I pray for understanding before and after I read and no matter how many times I re-read a portion, I almost always see more. As for the Bible being either fictional or unprovable, this is a narrow view put out mostly by those who have done little true investigation. There are many respected scientists and historians who do not doubt the legitimacy of what the Bible says. For examples, Google "Answers in Genesis".
I think the bottom line is that "faith" is a belief in something for which we don't necessarily have complete proof. In the case of Christianity, it's also a belief in the supernatural, a thing that many non-Christians have no problem with (astrology, tarot cards etc.). At the end of the day, if what I believe is wrong, it makes no difference, if it's true......
Honestly, I envy those who can be religious... It seems like it would be a good feeling, that someone's watching over you, that things happen for a reason, and that through the tough times there's more out there. I think it's great that it brings communities together to churches for not only masses, but I've seen many churches act like more of a community center than anything. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's in the way my mind works or the way I was raised, I just can't seem to hold onto 1 religion as being true... I just go my own way, I'm not sure if I believe there's a God out there, but I feel if there is he must be gracious enough to understand my confusion. As stupid as it sounds, I still pray, and I hope someday I can find the religion that really leads to my true beliefs... I just haven't pieced it together yet.
www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Understanding and the Bible
Hi all,
I am a committed Christian so I can't fully answer the question. However, my journey to faith did begin with the Bible. At the age of 13 I was made to read the Bible, specifically the sermon on the mount and Jesus' teaching in the Gospels, by a particularly keen "Scripture" teacher. While I didn't really "understand" what I was reading, when I read it something in me just clicked. It was like I had always known it was true. Strange I know. I decided that I believed in it and from there went on to become and call myself a Christian, found a church, etc. I am now 30 and still believe. I recently went to a church in Medford, Oregon where they have been having a healing revival. I saw several pretty undeniable miracles (short arms and legs growing, bones changing shape, etc.) with my own eyes. That doesn't say anything about the Bible I know but I think it demonstrates that there is a fundamental difference between understanding and belief. Many of the significant experiences I have had both reading the Bible and through my practice of the Christian faith fly in the face of my understanding.
On a more down to earth level, I think that much of what is written in the Bible only makes sense if you have a foundational belief anyway. When Jesus talked about the plank in people's eye (Matthew 7:3), he was talking about their sin against God, which is largely invisible here on Earth. If you take God out of the picture, what does the plank represent?
Alrighty then, what brings out the worst in oneself?
For me, it is boredom. When I'm bored, I transform into a malevolent being capable of endless joy and humour.
At others' expense.
People asking ridiculous questions on this forum really grinds my gears.
Lane discipline on islands, bad drivers in general.
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mercianary said:
Lane discipline on islands, bad drivers in general.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
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+over 9000
I HATE middle-lane drivers and people cutting across roundabout lanes when I'm trying to turn right.
People, in general.
Not the like-minded ones who gravitate to the same hang-out spots that i do, just the 99.9% general public/hoi-poloi/great unwashed masses, who share nothing except their inability to raise their average IQ's above that of a Tapeworm.
DirkGently1 said:
People, in general.
Not the like-minded ones who gravitate to the same hang-out spots that i do, just the 99.9% general public/hoi-poloi/great unwashed masses, who share nothing except their inability to raise their average IQ's above that of a Tampon.
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I corrected that for you
johncmolyneux said:
+over 9000
I HATE middle-aged drivers and people cutting across lanes when I'm trying to turn.
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FTFM. Now that you know how I drive...
Spam from the dead!
-We do what we must because we can; for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead-
Holy Necro-Thread Batman!
I was about to post that it was a good idea for a thread..
..and then realised it was. 3 months ago!
I don't even remember posting in it before. Second bite at the apple... i would still say that people being dumb grinds my gears. It's got nothing to do with education. You can teach a monkey to solve puzzles. I'm not impressed by qualifications. Any idiot can memorise a bunch of stuff, regurgitate it in an exam and get 'qualified'.
I respect people for having original thoughts of their own. For being creative. Isaac Newton realised that contemporary Math wasn't cutting it.. so he invented Trigonometry. INVENTED it. I can barely spell it! Of course, while he was mostly focused on turning Lead into Gold, he somehow found the time to discover Gravity and come up with the Laws of Motion.
The highly qualified people is see at work every day are chemical Engineers and even Doctors. I sometimes wonder how some of them even manage to tie their own shoe-lace some days. Most of them are as clever as a block of cheese.
There's no excuse for being dumb. If you feel that perhaps you are dumb? Pick up some books! You've got one lifetime to find out as much as you can about the universe. Don't you feel the clock ticking...?
I can read minds, doesn't that make sense?
It's uncanny how you can sum up my frustrations into one rant. And somehow you managed to remove the swearing I would have incorporated into it as well!
-We do what we must because we can; for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead-
I_am_Error said:
I can read minds, doesn't that make sense?
It's uncanny how you can sum up my frustrations into one rant. And somehow you managed to remove the swearing I would have incorporated into it as well!
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It took an extra five minutes to edit out the swearies..!
Seriously though, i've been around people of all walks of life. There are two individuals that spring to mind. One was a Tree Surgeon, (arborist), and the other was a common labourer...same as i was. The former was my age, my level of 'education', and even in my line of work.. but man did he make me think. He questioned everything, (same as i did), but the conversations we had would go on forever. "If i kicked out the door-stop...", one conversation went.. "where does the energy go when the door slams shut?", he asked. That one went on for hours!
Bearing in mind that this this was a fit, popular guy with a stunning girlfriend and a career in manual labour. He was a wealth of knowledge about Cetaceans, and most anything about the animal kingdom. He taught me that i still had a lot to learn myself! It wasn't the fact that this stuff even crossed his mind that surprised me.. it was that he questioned everything. It was that curiosity that made him awesome. You could see that behind his eyes were cogs that were always turning. Someone else with a thirst for knowledge!
The other example was a kid i knew who was trying to earn a bit of cash-in-hand, doing the hard labour on a day-rate. We'd chat while we worked and we'd get into the deeper discussions of Evolutionary Psychology, for example. Told well, maybe some students will listen... of those, some might even understand the subject matter. Of those who understand, you might find a few who could go one step further and add something novel to the conversation.. come up with an original suggestion or two of their own. So here's a 17 year old kid who having never even thought about it before is suddenly discussing the subject with me like a pro! Not only discussing it, but taking it places even i hadn't thought of. He's making me re-think my own beliefs!
That is insight! That is the same flexibility of mind that led the great thinkers of our time to advance science, not only in small steps, but in giant leaps! Few have that ability..and when it comes, it's often from the most unexpected places! Einstein was a Patent Clerk, for instance. Ok, he was a Math prodigy too, but i bet he didn't waste his free time watching reality TV shows!
If only a fraction of the people in the world were allowed to reach their potential, we'd be in the midst of a second Renaissance right now. Instead, we're held back as a race by short-sightedness, inertia, dogma..and an unforgivable amount of ignorance!
*And that, Ladies and germs, will have to be my rant for the night! I'm sure it could have been a better read, but i'm not one of those who will advance human knowledge in any significant way. One of you you could be though...if you could just get off of your fat, lazy arses first!
DirkGently said:
Holy Necro-Thread Batman!
I was about to post that it was a good idea for a thread..
..and then realised it was. 3 months ago!
I don't even remember posting in it before. Second bite at the apple... i would still say that people being dumb grinds my gears. It's got nothing to do with education. You can teach a monkey to solve puzzles. I'm not impressed by qualifications. Any idiot can memorise a bunch of stuff, regurgitate it in an exam and get 'qualified'.
I respect people for having original thoughts of their own. For being creative. Isaac Newton realised that contemporary Math wasn't cutting it.. so he invented Trigonometry. INVENTED it. I can barely spell it! Of course, while he was mostly focused on turning Lead into Gold, he somehow found the time to discover Gravity and come up with the Laws of Motion.
The highly qualified people is see at work every day are chemical Engineers and even Doctors. I sometimes wonder how some of them even manage to tie their own shoe-lace some days. Most of them are as clever as a block of cheese.
There's no excuse for being dumb. If you feel that perhaps you are dumb? Pick up some books! You've got one lifetime to find out as much as you can about the universe. Don't you feel the clock ticking...?
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Man, thats's all WAAAAAY to serious for the OT forum
the_scotsman said:
Man, thats's all WAAAAAY to serious for the OT forum
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What blasphemy is this? Most people in ot that I converse with tend to be far more serious than most people out of OT OT iz sruz bidness. Don't belittle us lol jk
-We do what we must because we can; for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead-
Lulz, how did my drunken rambles end up in here
Anyway, that's a few million more of my own brain cells successfully killed off. Or at least that's how it feels this morning!
*Warning!* Contains content that you may not agree with!
I was going through my hard drive and found this cached from Gizmodo, about a year ago. Mature responses only, please! And remember, you can talk to people about your worries, you really can.
Bill Zeller * 2011
I have the urge to declare my sanity and justify my actions, but I assume I'll never be able to convince anyone that this was the right decision. Maybe it's true that anyone who does this is insane by definition, but I can at least explain my reasoning. I considered not writing any of this because of how personal it is, but I like tying up loose ends and don't want people to wonder why I did this. Since I've never spoken to anyone about what happened to me, people would likely draw the wrong conclusions.
My first memories as a child are of being raped, repeatedly. This has affected every aspect of my life. This darkness, which is the only way I can describe it, has followed me like a fog, but at times intensified and overwhelmed me, usually triggered by a distinct situation. In kindergarten I couldn't use the bathroom and would stand petrified whenever I needed to, which started a trend of awkward and unexplained social behavior. The damage that was done to my body still prevents me from using the bathroom normally, but now it's less of a physical impediment than a daily reminder of what was done to me.
This darkness followed me as I grew up. I remember spending hours playing with legos, having my world consist of me and a box of cold, plastic blocks. Just waiting for everything to end. It's the same thing I do now, but instead of legos it's surfing the web or reading or listening to a baseball game. Most of my life has been spent feeling dead inside, waiting for my body to catch up.
At times growing up I would feel inconsolable rage, but I never connected this to what happened until puberty. I was able to keep the darkness at bay for a few hours at a time by doing things that required intense concentration, but it would always come back. Programming appealed to me for this reason. I was never particularly fond of computers or mathematically inclined, but the temporary peace it would provide was like a drug. But the darkness always returned and built up something like a tolerance, because programming has become less and less of a refuge.
The darkness is with me nearly every time I wake up. I feel like a grime is covering me. I feel like I'm trapped in a contimated body that no amount of washing will clean. Whenever I think about what happened I feel manic and itchy and can't concentrate on anything else. It manifests itself in hours of eating or staying up for days at a time or sleeping for sixteen hours straight or week long programming binges or constantly going to the gym. I'm exhausted from feeling like this every hour of every day.
Three to four nights a week I have nightmares about what happened. It makes me avoid sleep and constantly tired, because sleeping with what feels like hours of nightmares is not restful. I wake up sweaty and furious. I'm reminded every morning of what was done to me and the control it has over my life.
I've never been able to stop thinking about what happened to me and this hampered my social interactions. I would be angry and lost in thought and then be interrupted by someone saying "Hi" or making small talk, unable to understand why I seemed cold and distant. I walked around, viewing the outside world from a distant portal behind my eyes, unable to perform normal human niceties. I wondered what it would be like to take to other people without what happened constantly on my mind, and I wondered if other people had similar experiences that they were better able to mask.
Alcohol was also something that let me escape the darkness. It would always find me later, though, and it was always angry that I managed to escape and it made me pay. Many of the irresponsible things I did were the result of the darkness. Obviously I'm responsible for every decision and action, including this one, but there are reasons why things happen the way they do.
Alcohol and other drugs provided a way to ignore the realities of my situation. It was easy to spend the night drinking and forget that I had no future to look forward to. I never liked what alcohol did to me, but it was better than facing my existence honestly. I haven't touched alcohol or any other drug in over seven months (and no drugs or alcohol will be involved when I do this) and this has forced me to evaluate my life in an honest and clear way. There's no future here. The darkness will always be with me.
I used to think if I solved some problem or achieved some goal, maybe he would leave. It was comforting to identify tangible issues as the source of my problems instead of something that I'll never be able to change. I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would feel some peace and not be constantly haunted and unhappy. But nothing I did made a dent in how depressed I was on a daily basis and nothing was in any way fulfilling. I'm not sure why I ever thought that would change anything.
I didn't realize how deep a hold he had on me and my life until my first relationship. I stupidly assumed that no matter how the darkness affected me personally, my romantic relationships would somehow be separated and protected. Growing up I viewed my future relationships as a possible escape from this thing that haunts me every day, but I began to realize how entangled it was with every aspect of my life and how it is never going to release me. Instead of being an escape, relationships and romantic contact with other people only intensified everything about him that I couldn't stand. I will never be able to have a relationship in which he is not the focus, affecting every aspect of my romantic interactions.
Relationships always started out fine and I'd be able to ignore him for a few weeks. But as we got closer emotionally the darkness would return and every night it'd be me, her and the darkness in a black and gruesome threesome. He would surround me and penetrate me and the more we did the more intense it became. It made me hate being touched, because as long as we were separated I could view her like an outsider viewing something good and kind and untainted. Once we touched, the darkness would envelope her too and take her over and the evil inside me would surround her. I always felt like I was infecting anyone I was with.
Relationships didn't work. No one I dated was the right match, and I thought that maybe if I found the right person it would overwhelm him. Part of me knew that finding the right person wouldn't help, so I became interested in girls who obviously had no interest in me. For a while I thought I was gay. I convinced myself that it wasn't the darkness at all, but rather my orientation, because this would give me control over why things didn't feel "right". The fact that the darkness affected sexual matters most intensely made this idea make some sense and I convinced myself of this for a number of years, starting in college after my first relationship ended. I told people I was gay (at Trinity, not at Princeton), even though I wasn't attracted to men and kept finding myself interested in girls. Because if being gay wasn't the answer, then what was? People thought I was avoiding my orientation, but I was actually avoiding the truth, which is that while I'm straight, I will never be content with anyone. I know now that the darkness will never leave.
Last spring I met someone who was unlike anyone else I'd ever met. Someone who showed me just how well two people could get along and how much I could care about another human being. Someone I know I could be with and love for the rest of my life, if I weren't so ****ed up. Amazingly, she liked me. She liked the shell of the man the darkness had left behind. But it didn't matter because I couldn't be alone with her. It was never just the two of us, it was always the three of us: her, me and the darkness. The closer we got, the more intensely I'd feel the darkness, like some evil mirror of my emotions. All the closeness we had and I loved was complemented by agony that I couldn't stand, from him. I realized that I would never be able to give her, or anyone, all of me or only me. She could never have me without the darkness and evil inside me. I could never have just her, without the darkness being a part of all of our interactions. I will never be able to be at peace or content or in a healthy relationship. I realized the futility of the romantic part of my life. If I had never met her, I would have realized this as soon as I met someone else who I meshed similarly well with. It's likely that things wouldn't have worked out with her and we would have broken up (with our relationship ending, like the majority of relationships do) even if I didn't have this problem, since we only dated for a short time. But I will face exactly the same problems with the darkness with anyone else. Despite my hopes, love and compatability is not enough. Nothing is enough. There's no way I can fix this or even push the darkness down far enough to make a relationship or any type of intimacy feasible.
So I watched as things fell apart between us. I had put an explicit time limit on our relationship, since I knew it couldn't last because of the darkness and didn't want to hold her back, and this caused a variety of problems. She was put in an unnatural situation that she never should have been a part of. It must have been very hard for her, not knowing what was actually going on with me, but this is not something I've ever been able to talk about with anyone. Losing her was very hard for me as well. Not because of her (I got over our relationship relatively quickly), but because of the realization that I would never have another relationship and because it signified the last true, exclusive personal connection I could ever have. This wasn't apparent to other people, because I could never talk about the real reasons for my sadness. I was very sad in the summer and fall, but it was not because of her, it was because I will never escape the darkness with anyone. She was so loving and kind to me and gave me everything I could have asked for under the circumstances. I'll never forget how much happiness she brought me in those briefs moments when I could ignore the darkness. I had originally planned to kill myself last winter but never got around to it. (Parts of this letter were written over a year ago, other parts days before doing this.) It was wrong of me to involve myself in her life if this were a possibility and I should have just left her alone, even though we only dated for a few months and things ended a long time ago. She's just one more person in a long list of people I've hurt.
I could spend pages talking about the other relationships I've had that were ruined because of my problems and my confusion related to the darkness. I've hurt so many great people because of who I am and my inability to experience what needs to be experienced. All I can say is that I tried to be honest with people about what I thought was true.
I've spent my life hurting people. Today will be the last time.
I've told different people a lot of things, but I've never told anyone about what happened to me, ever, for obvious reasons. It took me a while to realize that no matter how close you are to someone or how much they claim to love you, people simply cannot keep secrets. I learned this a few years ago when I thought I was gay and told people. The more harmful the secret, the juicier the gossip and the more likely you are to be betrayed. People don't care about their word or what they've promised, they just do whatever the **** they want and justify it later. It feels incredibly lonely to realize you can never share something with someone and have it be between just the two of you. I don't blame anyone in particular, I guess it's just how people are. Even if I felt like this is something I could have shared, I have no interest in being part of a friendship or relationship where the other person views me as the damaged and contaminated person that I am. So even if I were able to trust someone, I probably would not have told them about what happened to me. At this point I simply don't care who knows.
I feel an evil inside me. An evil that makes me want to end life. I need to stop this. I need to make sure I don't kill someone, which is not something that can be easily undone. I don't know if this is related to what happened to me or something different. I recognize the irony of killing myself to prevent myself from killing someone else, but this decision should indicate what I'm capable of.
So I've realized I will never escape the darkness or misery associated with it and I have a responsibility to stop myself from physically harming others.
I'm just a broken, miserable shell of a human being. Being molested has defined me as a person and shaped me as a human being and it has made me the monster I am and there's nothing I can do to escape it. I don't know any other existence. I don't know what life feels like where I'm apart from any of this. I actively despise the person I am. I just feel fundamentally broken, almost non-human. I feel like an animal that woke up one day in a human body, trying to make sense of a foreign world, living among creatures it doesn't understand and can't connect with.
I have accepted that the darkness will never allow me to be in a relationship. I will never go to sleep with someone in my arms, feeling the comfort of their hands around me. I will never know what uncontimated intimacy is like. I will never have an exclusive bond with someone, someone who can be the recipient of all the love I have to give. I will never have children, and I wanted to be a father so badly. I think I would have made a good dad. And even if I had fought through the darkness and married and had children all while being unable to feel intimacy, I could have never done that if suicide were a possibility. I did try to minimize pain, although I know that this decision will hurt many of you. If this hurts you, I hope that you can at least forget about me quickly.
There's no point in identifying who molested me, so I'm just going to leave it at that. I doubt the word of a dead guy with no evidence about something that happened over twenty years ago would have much sway.
You may wonder why I didn't just talk to a professional about this. I've seen a number of doctors since I was a teenager to talk about other issues and I'm positive that another doctor would not have helped. I was never given one piece of actionable advice, ever. More than a few spent a large part of the session reading their notes to remember who I was. And I have no interest in talking about being raped as a child, both because I know it wouldn't help and because I have no confidence it would remain secret. I know the legal and practical limits of doctor/patient confidentiality, growing up in a house where we'd hear stories about the various mental illnesses of famous people, stories that were passed down through generations. All it takes is one doctor who thinks my story is interesting enough to share or a doctor who thinks it's her right or responsibility to contact the authorities and have me identify the molestor (justifying her decision by telling herself that someone else might be in danger). All it takes is a single doctor who violates my trust, just like the "friends" who I told I was gay did, and everything would be made public and I'd be forced to live in a world where people would know how ****ed up I am. And yes, I realize this indicates that I have severe trust issues, but they're based on a large number of experiences with people who have shown a profound disrepect for their word and the privacy of others.
People say suicide is selfish. I think it's selfish to ask people to continue living painful and miserable lives, just so you possibly won't feel sad for a week or two. Suicide may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem, but it's also a permanent solution to a ~23 year-old problem that grows more intense and overwhelming every day.
Some people are just dealt bad hands in this life. I know many people have it worse than I do, and maybe I'm just not a strong person, but I really did try to deal with this. I've tried to deal with this every day for the last 23 years and I just can't ****ing take it anymore.
I often wonder what life must be like for other people. People who can feel the love from others and give it back unadulterated, people who can experience sex as an intimate and joyous experience, people who can experience the colors and happenings of this world without constant misery. I wonder who I'd be if things had been different or if I were a stronger person. It sounds pretty great.
I'm prepared for death. I'm prepared for the pain and I am ready to no longer exist. Thanks to the strictness of New Jersey gun laws this will probably be much more painful than it needs to be, but what can you do. My only fear at this point is messing something up and surviving.
—-
I'd also like to address my family, if you can call them that. I despise everything they stand for and I truly hate them, in a non-emotional, dispassionate and what I believe is a healthy way. The world will be a better place when they're dead—one with less hatred and intolerance.
If you're unfamiliar with the situation, my parents are fundamentalist Christians who kicked me out of their house and cut me off financially when I was 19 because I refused to attend seven hours of church a week.
They live in a black and white reality they've constructed for themselves. They partition the world into good and evil and survive by hating everything they fear or misunderstand and calling it love. They don't understand that good and decent people exist all around us, "saved" or not, and that evil and cruel people occupy a large percentage of their church. They take advantage of people looking for hope by teaching them to practice the same hatred they practice.
A random example:
"I am personally convinced that if a Muslim truly believes and obeys the Koran, he will be a terrorist." - George Zeller, August 24, 2010.
If you choose to follow a religion where, for example, devout Catholics who are trying to be good people are all going to Hell but child molestors go to Heaven (as long as they were "saved" at some point), that's your choice, but it's ****ed up. Maybe a God who operates by those rules does exist. If so, **** Him.
Their church was always more important than the members of their family and they happily sacrificed whatever necessary in order to satisfy their contrived beliefs about who they should be.
I grew up in a house where love was proxied through a God I could never believe in. A house where the love of music with any sort of a beat was literally beaten out of me. A house full of hatred and intolerance, run by two people who were experts at appearing kind and warm when others were around. Parents who tell an eight year old that his grandmother is going to Hell because she's Catholic. Parents who claim not to be racist but then talk about the horrors of miscegenation. I could list hundreds of other examples, but it's tiring.
Since being kicked out, I've interacted with them in relatively normal ways. I talk to them on the phone like nothing happened. I'm not sure why. Maybe because I like pretending I have a family. Maybe I like having people I can talk to about what's been going on in my life. Whatever the reason, it's not real and it feels like a sham. I should have never allowed this reconnection to happen.
I wrote the above a while ago, and I do feel like that much of the time. At other times, though, I feel less hateful. I know my parents honestly believe the crap they believe in. I know that my mom, at least, loved me very much and tried her best. One reason I put this off for so long is because I know how much pain it will cause her. She has been sad since she found out I wasn't "saved", since she believes I'm going to Hell, which is not a sadness for which I am responsible. That was never going to change, and presumably she believes the state of my physical body is much less important than the state of my soul. Still, I cannot intellectually justify this decision, knowing how much it will hurt her. Maybe my ability to take my own life, knowing how much pain it will cause, shows that I am a monster who doesn't deserve to live. All I know is that I can't deal with this pain any longer and I'm am truly sorry I couldn't wait until my family and everyone I knew died so this could be done without hurting anyone. For years I've wished that I'd be hit by a bus or die while saving a baby from drowning so my death might be more acceptable, but I was never so lucky.
—-
To those of you who have shown me love, thank you for putting up with all my ****tiness and moodiness and arbitrariness. I was never the person I wanted to be. Maybe without the darkness I would have been a better person, maybe not. I did try to be a good person, but I realize I never got very far.
I'm sorry for the pain this causes. I really do wish I had another option. I hope this letter explains why I needed to do this. If you can't understand this decision, I hope you can at least forgive me.
Bill Zeller
—-
Please save this letter and repost it if gets deleted. I don't want people to wonder why I did this. I disseminated it more widely than I might have otherwise because I'm worried that my family might try to restrict access to it. I don't mind if this letter is made public. In fact, I'd prefer it be made public to people being unable to read it and drawing their own conclusions.
Feel free to republish this letter, but only if it is reproduced in its entirety.
that's depressing, but it puts things in perspective. I read it all.
thanks.
--sent from my glacier.
Horrible that he got so constantly downed by his family and those around him that he never felt he could trust anyone enough to open up and tell what happened to him. I don 't know that he could have been helped because what he went through had to have been scarring beyond belief, but at least he may have had a chance.
At least the work he did left a positive impact on the world for a lot of people.
Is there a TL;DR version?
jaszek said:
Is there a TL;DR version?
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Skim it. Only version available, sorry.
Sent from my HTC Intruder
Bump. Definitely something worth reading.
This man needed Jesus so badly. It's heartbreaking to hear of things like this.
Hey everyone! I have an assignment about the topic of the ethics of dissecting animals in high school science class. I have a survey that asks about one's opinion on this topic. I thought it would be interesting to see what XDA members think about dissection in high schools so I would greatly appreciate it if you guys took a few minutes to fill out my survey on Google Forms. It would also be quite cool to hear about your experiences with dissection while you were in high school so feel free to start a conversation about that in this thread. Thanks everyone!
Here's the link to the survey: http://goo.gl/forms/xU2gjBTaQi
Over here animals used in labs for the purpose of education and study are never killed for that purpose. They're all roadkill, natural causes, diseased, etc. (This is in Western Europe, the law does not allow the killing of animals for laboratory pruposes.)
By dissecting an animal, people learn that animals are living creatures made of the same parts as themselves. That is a very important lesson, because the idea of humans being 'more' than animals, either special or better or 'god's favourite', is what leads to animal cruelty.
I always found it highly educational. Except the one time with the tarantula. I bloody hate spiders, dead or alive.
It also gives kids a stomach for blood, a great little reality check, a slap in the face about mortality, and it never fails to leave a lasting impression. Given the attitude of high school kids, that's a knock off their high horse they sorely need. If they cry and vomit, all the better. Life isn't pretty, welcome to the real world.
(A good friend of mine is a medical examiner, I sometimes help out as her assistant when they're short on staff, since I have had basic medical training. It's one of the reason why I do not care for someone's skin colour; I've seen up close that all humans look exactly the same inside their skin and when they're dead.)
I think dissection is fine, and is helpful if the dissector can handle the gore.
I grew up on a farm where we grew angus cattle, and lived off the meat we got from them. I was around during all the process, from the cow being shot, to the final cuts of meat being done. We also sometimes got a pet pig with the full intention of growing it out to eat.
When we started doing dissection I had no problem doing it, though I had a close friend who would stand in the corner, due to him not being able to stomach the gore. I always found dissection interesting, and it helped enforce the knowledge I had learned beforehand, however it was no use at all to the people who couldn't handle the gore.
ShadowLea said:
It also gives kids a stomach for blood, a great little reality check, a slap in the face about mortality, and it never fails to leave a lasting impression. Given the attitude of high school kids, that's a knock off their high horse they sorely need. If they cry and vomit, all the better. Life isn't pretty, welcome to the real world.
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I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER MYSELF. However I believe more needs to be done at younger ages to ease them into things like this, if you only get shown the gore etc in one full hit when your older, your more likely to be completely against it.
Overall people should be less sensitive, and dissection is good for learning
Well, let us begin.....if you may pass around, the virgin's blood, the black candles and the tongue of a dead man whom killed himself.....Woopsy doopsy! Another forum...sorry, my bad.
;-)
I don't like to talk much about myself, least of all in an internet forum.
But fair is fair, and I am asked to introduce myself.
So I'll make an effort, without guaranteeing any results.
I'm in my middle forties.
I'm sitting on my bed while I write this.
Be right back: nature calls, and she's a batch.
Back, and I seem to weigh a little less now.
I feel light as Trump's head.
So, coming back to me, myself and I: I always loved computers, although I never quite understood them very much. Some claim that I know a lot about computers.....but this opinion is only shared by those who know absolutely nothing about them, and see them as entities which could eat them alive if they pressed the "wrong button". I know better: I have a limited knowledge regarding computers, but I do possess an endless curiosity, and I always seem to find somebody whom is kind enough as to give me her/his time to teach me, or help me out of deep shi-t when I, very rarely!, take a path that I know nothing about and "boldly go seeking where no one has sought before"......
As you already know by now, I love Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Thrillers and Terror; this in all medias: movies, series, graphic novels, comics, mangas, animations, books.....
I love to row, ski, practice volleyball and rugby, ride a bike and a horse, run, go rollerskating and ice skating, swimming and climbing.
I also write a lot, but nothing's been published so far. I happen to read way more than I write though.
I spent seven years in a wheelchair/using crutches, and now I am riding bikes again....it feels like the first time I rode one, when I was a child.
Let us simply say I come a long way to where, and when, I stand today.
I may not be of a lot of help to you, because my knowledge is really limited. Now. But, with your kind help, it will come a day when I will be able to give my helping hand to others in these matters as well as some others.
Looking forward to keep in touch with you all.
Live long and prosper, from Geneva, Switzerland.
(To your questions: YES, I love chocolate; YES, I love cheese; YES, I love watches and have half a dozen of them, several of which I repaired myself (and one I broke on my own too, for being an arrogant moron); YES, I love mountains: so, if you leave aside that I don't love banks, the swiss stereotype is fully fulfilled--well, I could love a bank if I owned one, but that not being the case.......)
PS: "Aexis" is not a typo error nor a choice because other names (Alexis, for instance) were already taken: it is my real name. And Tenax is my last name, after I chose to change the one I was sadly born with: for those of you whom don't know Latin, "Tenax" means "Tenacious" (as in "Tenacious D", the movies and the music). Modesty is not one of my defects, neither is arrogance.
Ah, my sense of humour is not shared by many: I am absolutely crazy about Monty Python, Chaplin, Buster Keaton, the Three Stooges, the animated original series of the Pink Panther (and I bought the entire DVD collection), Mr Bean, Not the Nine o'Clock News, Fry and Laurie, Red Dwarf and sooooooooooooooo many others. I even have a t-shirt that says: "I speak fluent sarcasm", to make things clearier for those with an impaired or atrophied sense of humour.
If you read until here, thanks for your time, and hope to "see" you soon!
Hi Tenacious Alexis!
Ahh, madness: the best way to make friends. Allow me to shamelessly pull this out of context:
aexistenax said:
I am absolutely crazy
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It's been a pleasure to read your introduction. I have a T-shirt that has "I have six words for you" on it, what a blissful moment when they ask me what they are. Yes, T-shirts truly mark our sense of humour. Honest feedback: "it will come a day" may be the reason you haven't been published yet Great to read about your recovery, must've been quite the rocky road. Let's try not to circumvent the swear filters, it's a nice place here Oh and let's not make things political because there's no end to that and this place is all about our universal love for tech. Hey, I also have a Swiss watch, a MyKronoz ZeTime. Its quality is indeed quite remarkable! Anyway, I'll keep it short. Pleased to meet you.
Timmmmaaahh! said:
Hi Tenacious Alexis!
Ahh, madness: the best way to make friends. Allow me to shamelessly pull this out of context:
It's been a pleasure to read your introduction. I have a T-shirt that has "I have six words for you" on it, what a blissful moment when they ask me what they are. Yes, T-shirts truly mark our sense of humour. Honest feedback: "it will come a day" may be the reason you haven't been published yet Great to read about your recovery, must've been quite the rocky road. Let's try not to circumvent the swear filters, it's a nice place here Oh and let's not make things political because there's no end to that and this place is all about our universal love for tech. Hey, I also have a Swiss watch, a MyKronoz ZeTime. Its quality is indeed quite remarkable! Anyway, I'll keep it short. Pleased to meet you.
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Thanks for the warm welcome, and my apologies for "breaking the rules" regarding politics and"swearing". I was, as you realized, kind of testing the limits.....but I'll fall inline from now on.
Well, most of the time at least.
Ok, many times.
Alright, make it a few times.
Or two.
Or one.
;-)
Ok. I'll try my best (not) to misbehave.
You can quote me on that last line out of context as well......
Silly though, I'd have loved to know what your answer is to those asking naively "which are the six words you have for me?". I bet my soul that the censorship for the swearing would not let you write that answer here.....Nope, scratch that: I already sold my soul, so I can't bet on it anymore.....
;-)
aexistenax said:
I'll misbehave.
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Gotcha! Oh don't worry about it, you were merely bending them a bit. We appreciate some passion in the conversatios around here.
As for how I respond to that question: I just stare at them in silence for a bit, they usually figure it out. If they really don't get there I start tapping the words one by one.