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http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9711/driversnotincludedwu3.png
To whom it may concern:
We are a part of an online organization that talks and communicates daily about several HTC Devices including the AT&T Tilt.
We are unhappy right now with HTC cause several devices are in need of driver updates to fix poor quality pictures, video play back, and playing 3D Games.
By quoting Fred Liu, Chief Operating Officer of HTC, "HTC believes that providing superior after-sales support is important to our continuing success, which is why we place such a high degree of importance on HTC Care. In the future, a number of HTC Care centers will be launched in Taiwan and overseas, allowing our customers to enjoy their mobile lifestyles without missing a call."
WELL in an e-mail received from HTC Customer Support dealing with the needed drivers counter acts the statement above made by Fred Liu, Chief Operating Officer of HTC with the following statement below:
"HTC believes the overall value of its devices based on their combination of functionality and connectivity exceeds their ability to play or render high-resolution video. These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most Smartphone and enable a variety of audio and video file formats," reads the official response, in part. Furthermore, the company has officially confirmed that Imageon drivers are not in use on the affected devices, but that it "plans to include video acceleration hardware in future video-centric devices that will enable high-resolution video support."
Are we as the consumer understand the statement made by HTC Customer Support over rules Fred Liu, Chief Operating Officer of HTC Statement.
The reply made by HTC Customer Support effects the following HTC Devices and their owners (which includes AT&T Tilt):
HTC TyTN II (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC Kaiser
T-Mobile MDA Vario III
AT&T Tilt
Vodafone v1615
HTC Touch Dual (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC Nike
HTC Touch Cruise (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC Polaris
HTC Wings (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC S730
HTC Titan (MSM7500), also known as:
Sprint Mogul PPC-6800
Verizon XV6800
HTC Vogue (MSM7500), also known as:
HTC Touch P3050 (this is not the normal HTC Touch)
Sprint Touch
Verizon Touch XV6900
HTC Libra (MSM7500), also known as:
HTC S720
HTC Iris (MSM7500), also known as:
HTC S640
For this the update we ask for will not be given to current devices but will be applied to future devices instead. All these devices listed above are the ones that has this problem with poor direct draw drivers(video play back, poor camera quality, and 3d games like call of duty 2).
Further more they insult us by saying they will update future devices with the update that is needed with current devices. That means we paid high dollar for a device that is to beat all devices and they will not support their device that beats all devices. According to their website and I quote (from TyTn II Overview found here http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_tytn_II.htm):
"More powerful than any mobile communications device you've seen before, the HTC TyTN II takes global connectivity to the next level.
Staying connected means staying ahead. The TyTN II supports the full spectrum of network standards, guaranteeing that you will stay in touch ANYWHERE in the world. With an internet connection via 3.5G HSDPA that is nine times faster than 3G, using the TyTN II to download files and surf the Web is a breeze.
Communicating on the go is easier than ever with an innovative, ergonomic LCD design that positions the touch screen perfectly for reading and creating e-mails, using applications, or even just playing games.
Important information is just a glance away with HTC Home™, which displays a big clock and provides live weather updates, access to a quick application launcher and one touch ring settings, easy photo dialing, and more.
With a complete suite of Microsoft® Office Mobile applications, including Outlook® Mobile, Word Mobile, Excel® Mobile, and PowerPoint® Mobile, being out of the office doesn't have to mean you're out of the loop. Always ready for business - and pleasure - the HTC TyTN II makes sure you are too."
(Quoted from the HTC POLARIS found on this page http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_htctouch_cruise.htm)
The HTC Touch Cruise™ is sleek, stylish, and compact, but big on features and with an LCD screen size that gives you an excellent multimedia experience in a mobile device. Featuring HTC’s innovative TouchFLO™ interface, the Touch Cruise is extremely easy to use. Using ordinary finger gestures, you can quickly browse through e-mails, web pages, messages, music, and images, making navigation a breeze.
Live HTC Home™ vibrantly displays important information, such as real-time weather updates and a large easy-to-view clock. A quick application launcher provides easy access to favorite programs. HTC Home™ also gives you quick access to ring tone settings making it easy to adjust device sounds and alerts on the fly. The dynamic 3D Touch Cube interface enables you to quickly call contacts, open applications, listen to music, and browse media files.
Built-in GPS functionality and the included software enable you to find the fastest route to your direction, locate restaurants and services on the way, and never get lost. Avoid traffic and delays, and take detours to visit points of interest and local attractions.
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(Quoted from HTC TOUCH DUAL found here http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_htctouch_dual.htm):
Delivering a revolutionary touch experience that will change the way you use your phone, the HTC Touch Dual™ combines an intuitive touch screen and slide-out keypad within a stunning design.
Everything you need is at your fingertips. With the push of your thumb, the front panel of the device slides up to reveal a handy smart-sized keyboard. If you prefer using touch, then the revolutionary TouchFLO™ interface lets you quickly browse through e-mails, messages, music and images by using finger gestures, making navigation a breeze.
With the Live HTC Home™ screen, information such as time, new messages, weather updates, and missed calls is just a touch away. Connect using 3.5G, which is 9 times faster than 3G -- wherever you are.
PLEASE PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE BOLD, HIGHLIGHTED, AND UNDERLINED section above.
This is an example of what HTC claims these devices do but in fact they don't. This is why need help to fix these problems.
From people upset with poor drivers says the following by testing their devices and the results show differently than what HTC claims from their website. The following explains just the opposite from HTC WEBSITE's CLAIM:
(THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS QUOTED FROM THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE: http://www.htcclassaction.org)
Display driver background
Here is some information on how display drivers are generally built up in Windows Mobile devices, as this will be referenced several times later on in this page.
Generally speaking, a complete set of display drivers (which indeed includes multiple drivers) are built up out of one main 'core' driver that does most of the actual talking to the hardware, and several other drivers that provide specific functionality (like GDI, DirectDraw, Direct3D, GAPI, etc) which use that 'core' driver. This is done because some part of the drivers must be responsible of keeping track of all the surfaces, make sure they all don't interfere with each other, etc. Obviously, the easiest way to do that is with such a 'core' display driver. Not having such a driver and having every functionality specific driver just do what it wants could result in weird behavior, and having them all communicate without such a core driver would be a likely source for heavy overhead.
An example of this is the LG KS20 (a device by LG also based in the MSM7200 chipset from Qualcomm). The 'core' driver here is called ahi2dati.dll, which is in turn used by the GDI / DDI, OpenGL ES, and Direct3D drivers. The latter doesn't use it directly, but that is because it's calls are mapped to OpenGL ES calls.
If you look into the complete software system deliverd on the affected phones we have personally tested, this complete system is absent. This is already a good clue that nothing uses the acceleration provided by the MSM7200/MSM7500 platform.
You will notice that on this page it is said several times that the performance from certain drivers is so low it is hardly possible the driver in question is hardware accelerated. This ofcourse compared to the specifications of the MSM7200/MSM7500. It may still be that a very small part of these drivers actually is hardware accelerated, but if that were the case, they did a downright shameful job of it.
Touchscreen
This issue is a bit tricky to get to show at first, but we have found a way to demonstrate it fairly easily. To replicate this, you will need Dynamix 3D Benchmark 1.0b and optionally My Mobiler.
Install Dynamix 3D Benchmark on the device. Note: though this is called a 3D benchmark, it does not use Direct3D or OpenGL ES. This is a benchmark using GAPI that tests Dynamix' own software rendered 3D engine. Furthermore, the benchmark itself uses a very simple 3D object. Do not try to make any assumptions whatsoever what this benchmark means to either software or hardware rendered 3D scenes on these devices, as all those assumptions would mean nothing.
You can find the application itself in Start --> Applications --> Games --> Dynamix 3D Benchmark. First, simply run it and let the benchmark do it's thing - this takes 100 seconds. At the end you will see a screen with the benchmark results. These were our results:
Average: 78 fps
Min: 19 fps
Max: 86 fps
Ofcourse, the important number here is the average FPS counter. Min and max are too easily influenced. Now, run the benchmark again, but when it starts, put your stylus to the touchscreen and start making circles with it, continue making the circles until the benchmark ends. When doing this, you will immediately see the FPS counter at the topleft of the screen drop. Again, these are our results:
Average: 32 fps
Min: 12 fps
Max: 76 fps
As you can see, the performance influence is enormous. Performance is halved due to use of the touchscreen. Next, we confirm that this is indeed a touchscreen issue. We do this by using My Mobiler. Install My Mobiler on your PC, and make sure your device is connected through USB (not Bluetooth) and ActiveSync. Use My Mobiler to connect to your device (it will install itself on the device through ActiveSync) and you can get your device's display on your PC screen. Start the benchmark again (through the screen on your PC) and let it run. Our results:
Average: 65 fps
Min: 51 fps
Max: 84 fps
Due to My Mobiler and the resources it takes capturing the screen and transmitting it to your PC, the FPS count is a bit lower, this is to be expected. Now we do the stylus-circling trick, but through My Mobiler. Start the benchmark and on the computer press down the left mouse button in your mobile device's screen and keep circling your mouse in that area, for as long as the benchmark runs. Our results:
Average: 62 fps
Min: 38 fps
Max: 80 fps
These results were a bit lower than the previous one, which can be explained through the inaccuracy (no two benchmarks are ever completely the same) and the added processing due to the mouse input. Now the trick with this is, that My Mobiler works by simulating the stylus input, by directly sending the relevant window messages to the foreground application. This means it completely bypasses the touchscreen hardware as well as software (the driver). As the issue is not apparent now, we have proven that the issue is indeed due to the touchscreen, and not due to any other subsystem.
A next step would be proving without a doubt that it is a software (driver) issue and not a hardware issue. This will require some ROM cooking and hacking to do, and we are still looking into it. It is however very unlikely that this a hardware issue.
Camera
The camera is a complicated item, as it depends on the camera hardware, the radio ROM, software drivers, and normal software. Most users will be able to easily verify that the camera application is very slow. Some devices' software seems to perform better than others, and quality and speed also seems to differ with different radio ROMs. The point remains that the camera is almost unusable, even with the fastest combination of HTC software and radio ROMs, and especially with the stock software from the HTC TyTN II. Ofcourse, having slow display drivers will negatively affect this issue, as the software will update a full screen image constantly. When this is slowed down due to the display drivers, the camera application is also slower. It's still doubtful, however, that this is an issue having to do with only the display drivers, there's likely a lot more involved.
GDI / DDI
It is very hard to verify wether this driver is hardware accelerated or not with absolute certainty, as it does talk to hardware in any case. However, seeing the system mentioned above is absent and the performance of this driver is abysmal, it is highly doubtful it is. Some dissembling and debugging can confirm this is not the case, but that is beyond the scope of this page.
DirectDraw
The DirectDraw driver provided on the devices we have tested is the default DirectDraw driver provided my Microsoft. One way to verify this is by dissecting the ROM from one of the devices. You will notice that ddraw.dll is system driver, not an OEM one. Note though that it is not necessary for the DirectDraw driver to use hardware acceleration directly to take advantage of a device's hardware acceleration. As of DirectX 8, which is the base for Mobile DirectX, DirectDraw has been integrated with Direct3D. DirectDraw's hardware acceleration is thus dependant on other drivers having hardware acceleration.
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Direct3D
There are several things that can clue you in on these drivers not being hardware accelerated.
First, on some devices Mobile Direct3D doesn't work at all (they are missing), which also means they are not hardware accelerated.
Second, the system noted in the Display driver background section above is absent.
Another good one is looking at the registry entries for the D3DM drivers, which can be found at HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\D3DM\Drivers. Here you will find two values, LocalHook and RemoteHook. On most devices, the LocalHook is set to htc_d3dm.dll and RemoteHook is left empty. LocalHook is used for drivers that load in the so-called user-space, and is generally only used for software rendering. This is because drivers loaded into user-space do not have direct hardware access. According to Microsoft, any driver set up this way may be assumed to be a software-only renderer. Note that it is not completely impossible for a hardware accelerated driver to be loaded this way, though it is certainly not advisable and we have never heard of such a case. RemoteHook is used for drivers that load in the kernel-space, and do have direct access to hardware, which is pretty much necessary for hardware acceleration. Also see this page on MSDN for more information.
Last but certainly not least, the D3DM driver found on the devices we have checked out, identified themselves as the "Microsoft D3DM Reference Driver". This is a software-only/skeleton D3DM driver provided by Microsoft to system builders, for debugging and development purposes. As far as we know, you aren't even allowed to spread this driver though, which makes this extra interesting.
OpenGL ES
There are two different interfaces available to make use of OpenGL ES, known as the Open GL ES Lite Profile and Common Profile. As the names suggest, one is the light version and the other is the normal version. These interfaces are provided by these two dynamic link libraries:
libgless_cl.dll - Lite Profile
libgless_cm.dll - Common Profile
On all devices we have tested, neither of these was available, meaning OpenGL ES is completely unsupported (and thus not hardware accelerated). Also see this page on Khronos for more information.
GAPI
We are not yet completely sure if this driver is hardware accelerated or not, however, as the complete driver system mentioned earlier is not present and none of the other drivers seem to have hardware acceleration, it would be fairly safe to assume that it isn't. The performance of this driver is also subpar, another good indicator that it's not using hardware accelerated functionality. A good indicator is tearing and flickering, this usually doesn't happen with a hardware accelerated driver (as seen with for example GAPI Benchmark 2.0). Looking at the driver itself, it does not seem to make use of any direct hardware calls.
Video playback
Video playback is dependant on several things. Slow display drivers will ofcourse limit the frame rate you get, and provide a far worse experience than fast display drivers. The decoding process also has something to do with it. The compression used in videos these days (almost always MPEG-4 or similar) is fairly complicated and does require a decent amount of processing power to decompress. The MSM7200/MSM7500 platform however also provides hardware acceleration for exactly this. Though a driver is present on these devices to assist in this (QTV), it does not seem to be used by any software. But even when this additional driver would not be present, movie playback should still be much faster than it currently is.
This has upset the owners of several of these type of devices. For this, a lot of people and I quote, "will never buy HTC products again cause this company doesn't support their devices". That means the TILT, on AT&T, sales will suffer cause HTC will not support current devices, but they want us to buy future devices with the update needed now for current devices. Why pay more money on future devices when HTC don't and will not support current devices now.
If there is anything, as in AT&T, can help push HTC to update the driver needed would be appreciated.
I have included some examples of issues posted on www.youtube.com that shows some examples:
The first video shows some 3d games with poor game play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8uq4FtduY
The second video shows extreme poor frames per second while taking pictures with the camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjS9zz2bww
The last video shows explorer mode on 2 devices. On the left is the AT&T Tilt (Qualcomm 7200 400 Mhz Processor) and on the right is HTC Voyager made back in 2003 (Ti-Omap 132 Mhz Processor). As this video shows the lower processor out performs the bigger processor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qbaDLzOU_Y
IMO everyone should contact everyone.. I've already written HTC, AT&T.. I dont really like microsoft >.> but might bite the bullet and talk to them...
in some cases it's not what you say, or how you say it, but the amount of money we cost EVERYONE with numerous and volumes of e-mails that say nothing more then "Fix my tytn ii/kaiser/tilt" that can get the job done...
eventually (the carriers) and HTC will get tired of the amount of 'Fix my drivers' spam they get and try to resolve it.. why? not because it's the right thing to do, but because it costs them lots of money in labor hours to filter through the E-mails.
HTC US: [email protected]
HTC PR Dept: [email protected]
If you're overseas, instead of just e-mailing them directly, tie up both avenues.. Call HTC's local call center and ask them what the E-mail address is to write about the issue.
When I need something from my local carrier I hit them by E-mail, phone, and writing.. Why? The more money and time you cost them the faster they try to get you off their backs
It would be best if you would type it all into a nice word document, and then upload that document. It makes things easier.
DELETED this page see post one thru three
i put the whole e-mail up cause i had prob posting a doc file on here sorry
Probably would help us if we got Qualcomm to release the SDK for this instead. That's what's really stopping us from possibly rolling our own drivers.
Qualcomm has stated that they do not release the OEM drivers to any of their processors to the general public.
--James
Thanks.
I might contact AT&T again with the same email you posted.
Maybe we can get your email up on Digg and have thousands of people email it to HTC and AT&T?
I already have been emailing AT&T (no response at all) and HTC:
My latest response:
Thank you for emailing me a generic response.
Please note that I complained about the performance of Windows Mobile and NON-VIDEO applications.
This is not just about video playback!
My problem is the device is very sluggish, especially compared to much older devices. This includes the drawing of normal applications, like the Today screen and TomTom, taking pictures (almost undoable), responding to user input, answering a call, opening the start menu, as well as playing games and video playback. This is certainly not up to par with the device's specifications.
The devices' specifications state that they use the MSM7200 and MSM7500 chipsets. The MSM7200 and MSM7500's specifications state they have (impressive) hardware accelerated video capabilities on-board. As neither HTC nor AT&T have never stated these hardware accelerated video capabilities would not be available, I have (correctly) assumed they should be.
Even your own press releases (http://www.america.htc.com/products/tilt/default.html and http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-070905.htm) try to impress by stating these capabilities.
THAT IS MISLEADING ADVERTISING!
As to your response: provide drivers for the Qualcomm MSM7xxx based units to use the ATI Imageon video acceleration hardware!
I will make this really simple to you:
FIX THE PROBLEM OR I WILL RETURN THE DEVICE!!!
From: Max [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:22 AM
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: RE: AT&T Tilt Video Inquiries
Hello ,
Thank you for your inquiry about the AT&T Tilt.
We know it is important for you to have all the information about your device. We regret to inform you that any software updates for your device must come through AT&T. HTC does not sell units to customers directly, the devices are re-branded, reprogrammed, and remodeled at the discretion of the cell phone carrier or service provider.
Regarding the video performance. In reference to the official press release in response to the driver inquiry issue, HTC does not offer exclusive or dedicated multimedia devices. The Qualcomm MSM7xxx based units do not use the ATI Imageon video acceleration hardware. Please verify that you have few if any programs running in the background, and do not have any conflicting third party software that may affect the use of the Windows Mobile 6 operating system.
If your issues persist, you may consider master resetting your device through the clear storage option under settings and system. Note this operation will remove your personal settings and return your device to the original OEM settings. All information on your SIM and Storage card will remain safe. You may also consider providing feedback to AT&T for requests regarding any support software or ROM updates where we may then host them on our web page for download.
Thank you for your patience and for contacting HTC. Please contact us again if you have any other inquiries.
HTC Technical Support
http://www.america.htc.com
http://www.htcwiki.com
http://www.cingular.com/support/
--- Original Message ---
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Received: 2/9/08 7:41:52 PM EST
To: "'Pratheepan'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: issue with video playback
I appreciate the response and hope that a solution can be found quickly.
I would hate to have to return the device in exchange for a non HTC device.
• Your full name: xxxxx
• Mobile number: xxxxx
• IMEI: xxxxx
• P/N: xxxxx
• S/N: xxxxx
• ROM Version: 1.57.502.2 (stock AT&T ROM)
• Details of issue: Horribly slow graphics performance in Windows Mobile and many applications. My main issue is with the horribly slow performance of Windows Mobile on the device. The buildup if program screens is really slow. You click on opening the application and it takes 5-10 seconds where the current screen is frozen before the application window is slowly being built up. Opening menus takes FOREVER. These things all work LIGHTNING FAST in comparison on older devices running the same version of Windows Mobile. Scrolling any list, is slow and you can see new items being slowly drawn. Opening the phone “program” takes approx. 5 seconds. After dialing a phone number the whole device seems to freeze when the dial button is clicked before the “call window” is displayed. TomTom Navigator GPS Software runs jerky compared to how it performs on my old hw6515 which is almost 4 years old. In Internet explorer it takes forever for websites to be displayed and scrolling performance is HORRIBLE! Video and multimedia performance is also horribly slow compared to older devices.
Please provide a detailed account of the issue that you have experienced, which includes:
• Program used Windows Mobile / TomTom / Microsoft Reader / …
• Any other details that you believe to be relevant: My hw6515 as well as a friends HTC TyTN I (the model before the TyTN II) have NONE of these issues and perform much better/quicker"
For Video:
• Program used: Windows Media Player
• File size 350MB
• File format/encoding WMV
• Resolution 640x480
• Video scaling (50%, 100%, full screen, etc.): full screen.
I would also suggest posting something on AT&T's customer service forums!
Before I just posted something there were 0 (yes ZERO) posts about this issue there.
http://forums.wireless.att.com/cng/board?board.id=cingular
I also recommend posting negative reviews about this issue wherever you can.
I always use Amazon so I posted a negative review there.
(What makes me really angry are some of the reviews on there which IMO sound fishy as if they were written by HTC employees to counter some of the negative reviews.)
http://www.amazon.com/AT-T-Tilt-Sma...sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=wireless&qid=1202780428&sr=8-1
Just send emails to HTC's CEO and fill up his inbox, that'll piss him off.
[email protected]
I've emailed him twice and actually gotten responses. Let him know!
Tony
Most advanced GPS calculations app for windows phone just got even more advanced!
GPS Calculator is an advanced app that allows you to do almost anything with GPS coordinates. Convert between 4 different formats (including UTM grid), calculate distances, area, and project points. It also does geo and inverse geo-coding (via bing services), maps true geodesic lines, works both offline and online, and allows you to manage waypoints. GPS Calculator major update to version 5.0 brings new features, including sharing of location in any supported format via sms, email or social, time zone, local time and sunrise-sunset calculations for any location, and the most advanced altimeter available on any mobile platform. With the new Altimeter function you can not only view elevation profile graphs and get current GPS elevation, but also compare it using five different elevation data models! In this update we support SRTM3 (shuttle radar topography mission), ASTER (Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer - a high resolution imaging instrument that is flying on the Terra satellite), GTOPO30 (global digital elevation model from topo maps), USGS elevation data, and finally Google’s elevation data web service.
GPS Calculator is not a tool for everyone. It will not take you from A to B, it does not record tracks or replaces your car GPS. There are plenty other apps that do that. But if you feel a little geeky about GPS technology, or just want to learn about it – you should give GPS Calculator a try. Hey, it is completely free and has no ads too, so there is nothing to lose.
GPS Calculator does speak your language (if it happens to be English, Russian, Italian, Spanish, French, Dutch or Swedish). Kevyn82, BigwaveMx @XDA, NebZonNe, Willem van Vugt, Johan Spanberg and others helped me translate. When Tango ships even more languages will come – including Ukranian, Arabic and Turkish already in the works.
This message would not be very useful without the marketplace link at the end. So here it is:
http://windowsphone.com/s?appid=4e06928a-de12-e011-9264-00237de2db9e
Nobody saying much here, so I'll say thank you for this useful and interesting app!
Peace
just installed, not bad! thanks
Thank you fellow WP7 users. I appreciate your comments here and even more at the marketplace. It is quite hard for a little non-commercial app like mine get noticed.
And just to let you know - new update with even more useful functions is already in the works.
hi kitya,
will be happy to update the translation if you introduce me to that NebZonNe...
little request : would be nice if we could find the app amongst other "G" named apps...thought the "space" was here for easy testing purpose...
Thank you. I will let you know as soon as I make some progress. Takes some time, sorry
Great Application
I will say this is a terrific app - works like a charm. Very ingenious! I would like to make a request though. If it were possible to save area calculations and email them, that would definitely be a big PLUS!
Thanks - great job! Greg
Stonebird said:
I will say this is a terrific app - works like a charm. Very ingenious! I would like to make a request though. If it were possible to save area calculations and email them, that would definitely be a big PLUS!
Thanks - great job! Greg
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you! But what exactly do you mean about area calculations saved. Just the result number? It should already be possible even now to select it and copy-paste into an email, if needed.