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Hello,
I bought my Kaiser a month ago. I'm interested in 3D graphic development for the graphic chip (Qualcomm MSM7200). For the last two days I've been looking around for something (SDKs, drivers, ...) for it. What I've found so far is that Qualcomm claims the chip to be rather powerful:
http://www.cdmatech.com/products/q3dimension.jsp
and based on OpenGL ES.
The other PDF ( http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf ) says, that the MSM7200 is built on ATI Imageon architecture and should support hardware accelerated OpenGL ES 1.0 Common as well as Direct3D Mobile. Yet, I am unable to find any MSM7200 and/or Imageon SDKs.
I've written a small app. to test Direct3D on this device but all I could get was a software renderer :-( I'm not familiar with OpenGL (ES) enough to test it.
So my question is: Which way should I go? I suspect I need some windows mobile drivers for hardware-accelerated Direct3D Mobile but was unable to find any.
For OpenGL ES this seems to be even more difficult, while I don't know which SDK to use (I couldn't find any supporting MSM7200).
ANY responses are very welcome.
I don't know how you can program for OpenGL ES, but for Direct3D Mobile you have an SDK for Visual Studio (i think you already know this...)
I'm complaining about HTC's implementation too:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339173
I just hope more people start complaining so HTC has to do something.
OK, at least I see I'm not alone.
So, as I pointed out in my previous post, MSM7200 should use enhanced Imageon architecture (I guess they refer to it as to Imageon+). Anyone feels like give it a shot with Imageon drivers/SDK/API? I would but I was unable to find something Imageon-development related on the web. Perhaps if you could point me somewhere.
is that any help ?
http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/80-V8905-1_A_Programming_OpenGLES_in_BREW.pdf
Unfortunately no. I took a look at the BREW already but I think it's not supported on Windows Mobile.
I'd like to say I've got some good news but I don't. I looked closer to my Kaiser's D3D configuration and I found that it only has one D3D driver. It's htc_d3dm.dll and it's locally hooked (means it is not accessing hardware) and it's basically just Microsoft D3D Reference Driver (software renderer). So it looks like HTC didn't put much effort into enabling D3D on Kaiser.
I will look futher into this matter and keep you informed.
wow. Hard to think that neither HTC nor Qualcomm would have compiled a d3dm hadware driver by launchtime, yet alone by now. Qualcomm seems much more interested in promoting their closed BREW platform than enabling "rival" technologies...
Aren't there any other msm7200 based wm6 machines out there ? maybe something like Polaris would have a correct d3dm implementation...
This is the list of MSM7200 based devices:
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdamaster&posted=1&cpu=a7200
But I think that drivers from any other MSM7xxx based or even MSM6xxx based device could work. I doubt they have different 3D graphics architecture. If you can get any Qualcomm's Windows Mobile driver, let me know for sure. I would try it.
BTW: If you want to check your (or any other) device for D3D drivers see registry values:
HKLM/System/D3DM/Drivers/LocalHook
and
HKLM/System/D3DM/Drivers/RemoteHook
LocalHook should list locally hooked drivers (software renderers but they might be optimised for certain CPU).
RemoteHook should list remotely hooked drivers (drivers that use hardware in some special way - e.g. hardware accelerated graphics).
I've just found that new i-mate ultimate 9502 will be Qualcomm MSM7200 based as well. We'll see what will i-mate come with when it comes to D3D drivers.
maybe a stupid idea, but why not trying to add htc_d3dm.dll in the remote hook registry key ?
I got that same stupid idea myself and tried it. It didn't work.
well, at least it doesn't harm either
i felt the kaiser maybe a bit snappier after the reg edit and a soft reset, but that must be placebo effect ^.^
edit : not placebo, in fact with the remote hooked dll, cleartype is bugged/disabled so the redraw really is a bit faster.
I don't know about cleartype but D3D app. failed to initialize at all.
I use attached application to test D3D and to get some info out of it. It is altered example for MSDN.
You can try it if you want to and see what it does with default driver set to RemoteHook
there's also a HtcDXRender.dll down in \windows, so this mess sounds more of a work in progress than a total overlook...
That's probably just some DirectX support and not Direct3D.
I've written a small app. that detects and lists ALL D3D drivers available. Just to be sure we don't overlook something.
I pretty sure omikrOn is correct about the reference drivers "all software". Well that goes for the rom that came with my p4550. I know it took a few rom updates for hardware support to showup on my p3600, which turned out to be so picky on what modes you use the initialize d3d. Hope this isnt the case for the p4550!
Anyway I looking forward to hardware support. this thing just might be a good gaming plateform...
Unable to solve anything I contacted HTC support with this issue today. I will keep you informed about their reaction.
correct me if I'm wrong, but dont the Hermes have the Imageon in them? (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=305940), could we not rip that driver out?
Also bumped into these on my travels.....
No ati chip
Correct me if i am wrong but the tytn2 doesn't have the ati imageon chip, so no use to search for those drivers.
Had my Tytn a few weeks now and just noticed that my TouchFlo program only allows me to scroll up n down lists etc n in the settings i only have one option which is 'enable sound' is the program not a full version my m8s windpws phone has TouchFlo which can rotate things n zoom in on pics etc can i purchase or upgrade mine to be the same ?
tytn does not come with the Cube (rotate things). U can however install the software for the cube
Yes your touchflo is gimped. If you own a kiaser or tytnII or Tilt, you touchflo is gimped by the use of generic WM6 graphics drivers. However there are improvements to the interface that will make it less "gimpy".
I am running a Kaiser, Windows Mobile 6.0 Professional. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on an implementation of OpenGL ES for this device? (I need the dll as well as the SDK; i.e. headers and libs).
Also, can someone confirm that such an implementation would be running on top of the software-rendered DirectDraw implementation that's native to this device?
Thanks,
Brian
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745
Hi, Gonzo. I'm aware of that thread and have gone through most of its 104 (!) pages, but I didn't find the answer to my question.
Note I'm not asking for hardware accelerated OpenGL, and that thread is mostly about the issues with HTC and/or Qualcomm not supporting H/W acceleration.
Hello Bkramer,
To be honest your question is a little to technical for me. I knew of the previous thread and thought it might help you but it seems your asking about something a little different. I do not think i can help anymore on this issue because it is out of my realm. Sorry.
Hello all. I don't see a forum for the newly announced Touch Diamond 2 yet, so I'll ask my question in here!
Does anyone know what the enhancements to the Touchflo3D interface will be (if any)? I don't bother with it on my Diamond, as the Calendar is virtually useless and there's no tasks at all. If these are being addressed then I might be convinced to upgrade (although I'm not sure about removing the wheel interface either).
Does anyone have any info on this?
Lee
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=486471
See Here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=416474
the story of how i came here is i was looking for a phone with direct3D support and the msm7225 processor as the native support on the touch 3g sucked.
i looked at the datasheet page here http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=...alcomm_msm7225
Clicked the browse all devices that use the MSM7225 looked through the list until i come across one that had windows mobile as the os, first one i come across was the omnaPro, checked if it supported direct3d knowing the gpu would be the same as its embedded in the msm7225 and google lead me here.
i thought what the hell , its not a omniaPro, but theres always hard resetting lol (done it once tonight lol)
tried the direct3d examples first, without driver , sucked , less than 1fps would be my guess, installed the drivers expecting a crash and nothing , it booted , run the examples an BANG PERFECT!!! AWESOME!! WELL HAPPY!!!
off to post in the touch 3g forum am a happy bunny, hope it will solve the 2d issues as looking at the cab its local hooked and not remote hooked so it must be the only gpu driver running.
AWESOME!
does it run on jade!! does this means that we can run tf3d on jade!!
oooh wow, thnx for the find !
Maybe some of the cooks will create a rom with this one and Touch Flow 3D
this was my first thought too lol . not gonna happen tho, because tf3d uses opengl ES, and thats totally diffrent to direct3d.
not imposible because there is a opengl ES compatibility layer for the omnia 2 i8000 (dont bother iv tried it already for fun and what i expected happend nothing at all lol).
tf3d would be nice tho, so if iv missed somthing and we can run tf3d on just pere direct3d someone let me know how please would be nice to have a mini hd mini lol
hehe yeah our own htc hd mini
so wait, what exactly is this useful for then ? gaming ?
I confirm that D3D driver from Omnia works perfectly.
Now we just need to get a working Opengl ES driver ("lib_GLES_cm.dll" I believe).
there is just one game that stil wont run after this driver instal ( xtrakt ). other games like cod can now run on full speed on max settings. and without the driver it was stil playabel at lowest settings but stil laggy a bit. sow there is a big diffrends whit this driver !
i confirm too that the 3d tests run very well , but didn't try any game. Exept some 3d games does it play a role for some other 2d games or apps , or even the menus slide ?
soms apps are faster whit this even scrolling feels difrend and smoother like my navigon ( gps navigator) is running faster and loading faster but on manila i dont see that much difrend
ritchietos said:
there is just one game that stil wont run after this driver instal ( xtrakt ). other games like cod can now run on full speed on max settings. and without the driver it was stil playabel at lowest settings but stil laggy a bit. sow there is a big diffrends whit this driver !
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that game requires OpenglES thats why it doesnt run. il say it again , its DIRECT3d not opengles , hence tf3d will not run yet.
it does seem to help manilia , the bottom scroll is smoother. and yeah it prob will help games no end judging by the jumpp on the 3d tests.
again , no tf3d yet but well worth it
thatguy1982 said:
that game requires OpenglES thats why it doesnt run. il say it again , its DIRECT3d not opengles , hence tf3d will not run yet.
it does seem to help manilia , the bottom scroll is smoother. and yeah it prob will help games no end judging by the jumpp on the 3d tests.
again , no tf3d yet but well worth it
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Click to collapse
iam using a opengl software driver from vincent works well for touchflo 3d
if u use throttle launcher runs on opengl if u set it so. i now its still emulate on the cpu but its faster than the normal settings
ritchietos said:
iam using a opengl software driver from vincent works well for touchflo 3d
if u use throttle launcher runs on opengl if u set it so. i now its still emulate on the cpu but its faster than the normal settings
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Click to collapse
Can you please give us some more explanation and eventually some link for the files?
Thanks
P.S. This thread and Android thread I am following and reading with interest.
dreamdreamt said:
Can you please give us some more explanation and eventually some link for the files?
Thanks
P.S. This thread and Android thread I am following and reading with interest.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
here is the page for the opengl.
http://www.vincent3d.com/
and here is the tool its like manila whit skins. and there is a android skin phone 7 skin an touchflo 3 the hero skin the sense skin.... (soms skins need difrend thorttle bulds so read it good )
http://www.throttlelauncher.com/portal/
u need the opengl from vincent to make the animation work.
and net framework 3.5.
hope this helps .
ritchietos said:
here is the page for the opengl.
http://www.vincent3d.com/
and here is the tool its like manila whit skins. and there is a android skin phone 7 skin an touchflo 3 the hero skin the sense skin.... (soms skins need difrend thorttle bulds so read it good )
http://www.throttlelauncher.com/portal/
u need the opengl from vincent to make the animation work.
and net framework 3.5.
hope this helps .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot
Hi ritchietos,
I downloaded Vincent ES 1.x but don't know how to install it??
ok so u se a folder whit the name ogles-bin-1.0.0 .then open bin .than open arm and then u se 2 maps debug and release open the release map and copy al te files in the windows directory on u phone. dont forget to turn on opengl on the throttleconfig.
and u ready to go
awesome now we have software emulated ogles too !!
i cant get it working with tf3d. i used the tf3d_qvga.cab from htcclassaction.com and the same thing happened.
what cab are you using that works ?
if i can get it working il make a cab for the jade when i get some spare time
thatguy1982 said:
awesome now we have software emulated ogles too !!
i cant get it working with tf3d. i used the tf3d_qvga.cab from htcclassaction.com and the same thing happened.
what cab are you using that works ?
if i can get it working il make a cab for the jade when i get some spare time
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Click to collapse
the real touchflo3d works but there are som white textures because its for a ati chipsets. there are som ports for this to get it work but didnt have the thime jet to search for it . the throttlelauncher touchflo 3d or android skin works whit opengl
throttlelauncher seems about the same speed with and without acceleration, but that cud b because im tired lol.
i never knew the textures were not displayed because of the lack of the ati chip are you sure about this as the vincent dll emulates it all in software id think it was because this dll lacks certain fetures.
anyone ever hear of the old glide wrappers that converted 3dfx calls to directx ? sounds similar to early glide wrappers to me lol
EDIT: Its slower with 3d acceleration enabled because of the wrapper i think, am just going to verify everythings installed right
EDIT2: yes its all installed right the d3d samples still fly too, shame throttlelauncher does not support direct3d acceleration. with the hero theme it averages 4fps just sitting there on the homescreen with acceleration on, and about 19-20fps without acceleration.
thatguy1982 said:
throttlelauncher seems about the same speed with and without acceleration, but that cud b because im tired lol.
i never knew the textures were not displayed because of the lack of the ati chip are you sure about this as the vincent dll emulates it all in software id think it was because this dll lacks certain fetures.
anyone ever hear of the old glide wrappers that converted 3dfx calls to directx ? sounds similar to early glide wrappers to me lol
EDIT: Its slower with 3d acceleration enabled because of the wrapper i think, am just going to verify everythings installed right
EDIT2: yes its all installed right the d3d samples still fly too, shame throttlelauncher does not support direct3d acceleration. with the hero theme it averages 4fps just sitting there on the homescreen with acceleration on, and about 19-20fps without acceleration.
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Click to collapse
White squares: Images appearing as white squares is due to non support of ATC textures - this can be caused by a non ATI graphics driver - either an nvidia one (intel used ati i beleive) or software based ones. This is an IP issue more than anything else, and not something that we as developers can easily fix. (from xda)
they are som devices whit this fix so iam looking for it to ghet it working.