Database Develop

Why are people on this forum so damn temperamental?

I have been reading through alot of posts here over the last couple weeks.
There seems to be a lot of bickering, pointless debate, insults and flaming going on here. (I know am probably starting more with this post, but that is why I chose the off-topic forum) I know you get it on all internet forums, but this one seems to be worse than most.
I actually had someone pm me on something recently, I believe, because he was too afraid to make a post asking for help. I dont blame him. If someone here asks a question that may or may not have been asked months ago (therefore buried by 10 pages of more current posts) he gets flamed. I also notice he asks another newbie like me, instead of someone with a lot of posts, because they seem to be the most touchy.
And I know, that is why there is a search. But you know, search tools on forums like this are a joke. You are going to get a return of 1000's of posts, 99% of which have nothing to do with what you are looking for. And for me at least, half the time when I search, and I am rewarded with a blank page (in both mozilla and IE).
Just wanted report on what I see here. Maybe others see it differently.

Jimmy - not to validate your argument, but I disagree with you!
Seriously, I respond to so many posts, probably even unnecessarily so sometimes, just because I like the community. The vast majority of us are here because we enjoy the community and are like-minded gadget freaks.
You do get some flaming, some *****ing, some idiots, some spam, some divas. But the vast majority, in my experience, are very nice, helpful and supportive of newbies. We were all one once, and I hope that I'd rather say nothing then something unhelpful.
Anyone can PM or email me any time. I can't respond immediately, but I will try to respond.
The usual "use the search, Luke", response is normally only fired out when you've got a very new member blurting out things like "How do I switch the phone off?". My reasoning there is, teach a man to fish, he'll help himself a lot more then just filling his gullet with answers. But, for valid, non knee jerk questions, most people will try to help.
I think it's better no one answers if they don't know, and if they don't, feel free to bump. But don't bump twice in 5 mins - "COME ON, DOESN'T ANYBODY
KNOW HOW TO SORT MY CONTACTS BY FIRST NAME??!?!?!??!" is not a way to make friends with me.
Anyway, I could rant all day, but I think the board generally speaks for itself. Most are helpful, most are nice, most are here because we want to be here.
You get some bad posts, but seriously, in my year on the board, I've only had two encounters that caused me to contemplate leaving...
V
PS this was an interesting thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?p=329718#329718

I know it is not everyone, my subject should not have been why are people so temperamental, it should have been why are SOME people so temperamental.
I agree with you, if it is a repetive question, just dont answer. I just think it is bad when people are pm'ing rather than posting because they are afraid.

vijay555 said:
You get some bad posts, but seriously, in my year on the board, I've only had two encounters that caused me to contemplate leaving...
V
PS this was an interesting thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?p=329718#329718
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I gotta' agree with you on that thread, vijay. Those pics (the original ones) NEVER should have been posted. They provoked a LOT of ire from users and flaming, too. There's no room for politics on this forum. It's not here for that purpose and I felt like that was where that thread was heading. Even the world news networks don't show images THAT graphic!! Thanks for deleting them and putting that thread back "on course".

whos temperamental, you [email protected]@rd!
STFU! you think your so [email protected] smart, coming here and reading entries and you probably dont know your @ss froma hole in the ground when it comes to pdas....
whos says people here are temperamental?

dont know your @ss froma hole in the ground
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gosh, in countries where you actually poo straight into a hole in the ground, this might cause some rather embarrassing situations!
V

maybe i hang out in the wrong forums or my level of what is hostile is wayy different from yours
but this is one of the most friendly forums i come in
or have ever come in (and thats a great deal)
i dont see telling people to use search and the likes to be hostile
personal attacks is hostile

Dont know what the problem is, sure once in a while people get pointed to search, wiki or spend some time reading. And yes once in awhile there are no flowers in that reply.
Sure even I have had the balls to move a post out of news and tell the guy to post in the correct, forum, read wiki and use search. It pisses of our other users who think news is news and not news being somebody asking how do I upgrade my device.
I have seen a lot of threads, a few things I did not like to see, a few I have killed. I have seen nice, not so nice and far form nice askers and also answerres.
In general you get a lot more help here than on other places (yes I have had to look other places).
But hell its a free word, if anybody thinks this site is not good to or for them, well its a click of the mouse to solve that problem.
Mean while will I point a user to the answer of his question which in fact is the same question in 4 different sections. Hum let me think about that one.

Personally I find most people on the forum very friendly. You always get a few who are a bit temperamental but that is life. But on the whole this would have to be the most helpful and friendly forum around.

I will have to agree and disagree with this.. i havent been a member that long and i did take the smart route, i actually read this board over and from top to bottom for months before making a single post, what stopped me from making a post right away was most senior people's complaints about newbs not searching, etc.. so i did just that searched and read... and here i am 3 months later of my first post and have made well over 500 now.. (i have point to all of this somewhere here ) This site can be a little confusing to newbs, but most of the confusion comes from other newbs making the same posts over and over again, you might search for one thing and come up with 50 posts of the same problem, however 49 of them are flames telling them to search to find the answer... and this is where it also gets frustrating for the senior people, people who have already answered this once before causing the temperamental flames.. Now i do try to answer what i can, we were all newbs once and i still consider myself one and i answer many pm's of people who are afraid to be flamed (which if they would have searched they would have found the answer) but im also not their personal wiki... ok, im done, oh yeah, vote for me for president

I agree with jimmy hauser
I came here from treocentral, which was much more supportive on average. Sure, there are some good-spirited and helpful people here, but it is overall much more antagonistic than treocentral.
As a practical matter, the search engine isn't very good and the recent upgrade of the forum didn't make it easier. It took me a few weeks to think of googling with the site:xda-developers.com, identifying the appropriate thread and then searching for that specific threads. Otherwise, one gets too much. Yes, we all find it annoying when someone starts a new thread that has already been answered fifty times, but on the other hand, there are pretty many 20+ page threads. It might be helpful to suggest to someone what they should have searched for, and try the search to see if it works. Just today I was trying to find the registry tweak that would eliminate the roaming indicator, but I couldn't remember what the thing did, so it took forever to find the registry tweak, and this for something I knew I had read on the board at some point in the past.
Here is what I think is actually better than most sites: the wiki. The wikis are uniformly high quality and some people have written fabulous how-tos.
My pet theory is that it is windows at fault. Things like activesync being so hilariously dysfunctional and the X meaning minimize on the PPC cause tempers to rise just a little too easily. Palm users are happier.
On the other hand, without XDA-developers, my MDA would have been approximately useless. The list of problems that were answered, either directly or indirectly, here is huge. Everything from ROM upgrades to TodayAgenda to 2.47 radio rom to wifi settings to wm5newmenu, I got them here. It is a wonderful resource.

I came here from esato, former sony ericsson user ditched it with the p990
if you really want to get flamed say I didn't like the p990 on esato or god forbid the tytn is better than it (I had both got rid of the p990) basically compare anything or say anything is better than a S.E. phone and you'll get your diehard fanboys by the dozens.
anyways some people get flamed here beacuse they are total noobs who don't bother to read anything, I agree they shouldn't get flamed that bad but they should do a little reading, there is a wealth of information in these forums,
as for asking I try to reply to anyone who asks something I know and if anybody needs anything please feel free to pm me I will answer when I can, although posting a forum gives more views as well as future reference for future noobs

I think this site provides so much useful information and it has kept many devices going when they would have gone in the bin. It has allowed a lot of older devices to still have the current operating system. I think half the time people have got home from work and are on a short fuse any way and any little thing pushes them over the edge and that is what causes the bickering. Just my thoughts on the matter.

darky said:
anyways some people get flamed here beacuse they are total noobs who don't bother to read anything, I agree they shouldn't get flamed that bad but they should do a little reading, there is a wealth of information in these forums,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure if I'm the "temperamental" one here, but yes, that is a very annoying thing. They act as if the members here are google, and they just type in a search sentence "Nood here, please give me a clear, step-by-step, easy to flash my ROM", click a button, and you get the answer. Not to mentioned the lack of information they provide, which can be potentially harmful to them consider they don't even know which ROM to get. And when things go wrong, they will post a new thread with the title "Pleeeeaazzz help".
The another annoying thing is the lack of information. Some members will post problems with so little information that they delay the solution to their very own questions, and annoying for the helpers. Eg. "I downloaded the flash software and ROM, but now the phone won't start, please help". Then, you try to be helpful and suggest "Why don't you try program X?". Later, you will get the answer "Oh, I've already tried that, won't work. Any other suggestion?" .. I will be like.. why don't you said so in your first post? ggrrrr..
Anyway, now I've developed an habbit of ignoring such posts. Those (a) Step by step guide for total nood (b) Thread with Pleeazzz help title (c) Post with lack of information. This will make me.. less "temperamental", I guess.
Anyway, as for the Wiki, I still thinks there are not enough information in the Wiki, such that it makes members difficult to point noobs to simple/common tasks. And, it also makes the non-noobs (the oldies ) going around the search function to answer something that they've forgot. So, for those who are happy to help others, please contribute yourself to the Wiki. Personally, I think it is much more influential to get one thing onto the Wiki than answering 10 PMs. And you get to point them to the Wiki if the same problem surfaced.
I'm temperamental beware

Well I remember when I got my MDAIII back over a year ago and came across this site thanks to google. So like a noob that I was and in many areas still our I posted one of those "how do I upgrade my german MDAIII to English.
Well I can tell you what has changed over the last year. Back then I got NO ANSWER, no falming, no use search, no use wiki.
So over time this site has changed and now at least you can get a reply even if this is thought by many as beeing flamed at.
Over time I learnt 2 things, one to read and one to use search. The reading I have kept the Search well that is a Pain in the ass. In the blue angel section (upgrade) do a search for "new rom" and you get Zero, its a bug we are working on it but it still sucks. Now in the same BA Upgrade section do a search for Threads by "MDAIIIUser". Here you get "New Rom" "new rom:" "New rom!" and the like.
Myself I have stoped the use search as I cant use it myself in the form that I want. Sad but true.
So what is the solutiom, for me it was then wiki, sure I had to post on how to edit it but with time I could even work it out. So from there I found out how to upgrade and posted it on wiki, found roms and posted them, found an unlocker, cabs and a bunch of stuff that I thought was cool of intrest and useful. So I posted it in wiki, edited it when new roms came out, ect bla bal.
Well Time moved on and I got bored after the 3 WM5 rom and well nothing else happens in the BA section the device is dead only sold by a few and thus.... I left it.
Now there is lots of grest info here, lots of great people that have found out lots of cool tricks. Its what makes this site, not the how do I upgrade or should I perform a restore after a rom upgrade. However noobs, newbies what ever we might like to discredit them as have a right to be here, I riight to the information and a right to some constructive help.
What we should all do is keep wiki upto date which is a lot easiser for a new member as he is driven by the quest of knowlege than an old member that does nto realy care in which direction his rom goes to as there is nothing new.
So I am not going to search the wiki pages for who finds this sites attitude bad but himslef has failed to update wiki, nor try to work out which users are helpful or flame.
All I am trying to say and now we get to the short version, is be nice, remember that you to were lost on this site and Please update wiki.
Oh yes, you will find a posts from me that just read "moved to XX (BA, Universal, hermes) but you will also see my signature which should point some people in the correct direction. Could I have answered all of there questions, yes sometims, sometimes not. So why don't I? well that due to the fact that some of us try to keep the site clean.

personally i feel the same way as the orginal poster...but i do see where some of yall are coming from with n00bs askin the same ? thats been answered before. i currently run a forum and have that problem sometimes. im no complete n00b just a novice with all this hackin/developin and i noticed i postd some ?s months ago with no responses at all and yes i searched for the answer and vj u had even posted in that thread but i never got a response. i didnt get mad....i pmd someone who helped me out the best he could since he was as new as me. i have found pm to be the best method of recieving help on this board....even tho at times "anal retentive" members dont even respond to say anything....no "f off" no "yea sure do this..." no "try looking here" just no response at all leaving n00bs to think i better not post if i dont know fully what im talking about.....i personally think the community would be better if everyone treated everyone as they would like to have been treated wheb they were n00bs. we all were at one point and time......shezzzzz......dont u guys remember? well all this is imho.
~mike

this does not apply to newbie's only.
i have asked about five times for help in here, responses 2
so i have been forced to read ,sometimes i find the answer some times
not.
pm several user for help. reply; 1
i receive several pms asking for help every week, i try to help ,but some people never give up. suddenly u become their personal google.
i got a guy now asking to write a a full tutorial in how to cook a rom. yea right!!
like an don’t have anything to do.
so I email him and said I was very busy at the moment, I would try to help when I had time.
following day got word from him. have you got time yet? !!!! now I get an email from him everyday. he says hi is in a hurry!!!!

faria
Love your newbie read this!

faria said:
I email him and said I was very busy at the moment, I would try to help when I had time.
following day got word from him. have you got time yet? !!!! now I get an email from him everyday. he says hi is in a hurry!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rofl

here is a good example of why people get temperamental
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=1038017&posted=1#post1038017

State of the Forum/Newbies

Okay, this post is really intended as a comment and I am not going to pretend I have THE answer but I do have some suggestions to spark discussion.
Based on a lot of the recent comments and back and forth about newbies/tech support I think that the forum is trending the same way I have seen MANY other forums go. What happens is simple; a group of first adopters, who are by default, technically capable, get together on a forum and start to fill in the gaps in tech support, especially when it comes to 'modded' soft or hardwre. They spend a while helping each other out and a comfort level develops. Members know where to go, and when to ask questions.
Then what happens is that the hardware becomes much more popular. All of a sudden your average Joe can walk out a Cingular store with a 8125 for a couple hundred bucks. These folks are NOT early adopters. They are not necessarily tech savvy. They are the people that are most prone to 'keyboard to chair interface errors'. Since the early members did such a good job raising the profile of the forum it starts to come up every time someone does a Google search. and they all end up over their heads.
So then the folks that have been around for a while start to get frustrated. Why should they provide tech support? Why can't these newbies read? Why should they even try to help if they get barraged by stupid questions?
Well I think that takes us to where we are now, so the question is what do we do now? In my experience the only solution that I have seen is to have people equally dedicated to wiki and sticky writing as they are to writing ROMs and programs. The truth is that if you release something you WILL become tech support and a large part of tech support is writing documentation and then explaining it to others.
I have intended this post as something helpful and to spark discussion, not as a criticism of anyone in particular or any particular group. Hopefully it will be taken as such

I agree. I get the feeling that since the relaunch, for one reason or another, there appears to be a lot more"Why don't my apps close when I press X?" and "How dat I swtich this thing 0ff!!!!!!!" type posts.
I think that it's beholden on more experienced users to try to share their experience as they see fit, but it's absolutely essential that newbs and less experienced users use the search button and wiki.
I've been sponsoring a post in the moderators' forum regarding having a specific section for Tutorials etc, eg for the excellent posts that Menneisyys puts together. The wiki may not be the best place for them (due to the risk of negative edits), although it's certainly better then people never looking at them at all...
But as you say, it's pretty much predicted by psychohistory that all fora of dedicated people will eventually turn into a tech support. I don't mind, but less experienced must use the resources already online - quid pro quo.
V

As a new user on this forum i have noticed inconsitant information about G3 vs G4 devices and ROM upgrading. I've seen questions asked by people about G4 devices that go unanswered.
I think the problem with searching on this forum and many others. They do not allow you to search for 3 or fewer letter acronyms such as IPL, SPL, CID. There is no way to search for answers about these things. If there is a setting on the forum that can be changed to allow searching for these terms, then please fix it.
I think when people start posting info about how they did something they need to specify what hardware they are using G3/G4. Thankfully i havent done anything as far as modding my device, but i had seen posts where someone most likely with a G3 device says they figured out how to do this or that, Then someone with a G4 comes along and tried it, not knowing it was done on a G3 and ended up screwing up their device. We need to clearly specify what hardware we are doing mods on.
I still have no clear answer about CID unlocking a G4. I know there is no free utility to do it. Ive seen posts that say the imei-check site can CID unlock. Then i saw a post this morning that imei-check is only a SIM unlock. Can people please provide clear info?

d0ug said:
As a new user on this forum i have noticed inconsitant information about G3 vs G4 devices and ROM upgrading. I've seen questions asked by people about G4 devices that go unanswered.
I think the problem with searching on this forum and many others. They do not allow you to search for 3 or fewer letter acronyms such as IPL, SPL, CID. There is no way to search for answers about these things. If there is a setting on the forum that can be changed to allow searching for these terms, then please fix it.
I think when people start posting info about how they did something they need to specify what hardware they are using G3/G4. Thankfully i havent done anything as far as modding my device, but i had seen posts where someone most likely with a G3 device says they figured out how to do this or that, Then someone with a G4 comes along and tried it, not knowing it was done on a G3 and ended up screwing up their device. We need to clearly specify what hardware we are doing mods on.
I still have no clear answer about CID unlocking a G4. I know there is no free utility to do it. Ive seen posts that say the imei-check site can CID unlock. Then i saw a post this morning that imei-check is only a SIM unlock. Can people please provide clear info?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you d0ug! It is rather confusing to navigate and find your way. Especially when you are a n00b, such as myself. I have been trying to mod my phone for 3 days now. I have tried many ways of unlocking my G3, but none of them have worked. I have listened to 3 different people tell me their "way" of unlocking the phone, and all 3 attempts failed in the end. I get flamed for not reading posts or searching, when i did, just nothing relevant popped up! This is not a whine fest, just saying that some people dont have phones that were built on a Wednesday, like mine that was probably built on a Monday and has issues!
Either way, i called Cingular and they are shipping me a brand new 8125 to test things out on!
Canon

Haven't been a wizard user that long although I've been in the ppc scene in about 5 years and quite active in several forums. The most successful solution that I've seen to this problem (witch enevitably always comes up) is to not let new users post for at least 7 days and/or forcing them to read various informational topics before getting access to the actual forum.
This will of course not get everyone but has in my experience improved the situation considerably.
Ah well, that's just my two cents

vijay555 said:
I agree. I get the feeling that since the relaunch, for one reason or another, there appears to be a lot more"Why don't my apps close when I press X?" and "How dat I swtich this thing 0ff!!!!!!!" type posts.
I think that it's beholden on more experienced users to try to share their experience as they see fit, but it's absolutely essential that newbs and less experienced users use the search button and wiki.
I've been sponsoring a post in the moderators' forum regarding having a specific section for Tutorials etc, eg for the excellent posts that Menneisyys puts together. The wiki may not be the best place for them (due to the risk of negative edits), although it's certainly better then people never looking at them at all...
But as you say, it's pretty much predicted by psychohistory that all fora of dedicated people will eventually turn into a tech support. I don't mind, but less experienced must use the resources already online - quid pro quo.
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Vijay, very happy to see that the mods are looking at this. I agree that Wiki's have their limitations especially given the validity of some of the comments about conflicting advice.
The search function definitely does have its limits as well, and people are less likely to go through searches that produce a 100 threads with 5 pages each.
I for one would feel a lot better about telling someone harshly to stop answering questions if I knew that I could also direct them to a single place for answers.

I really love this forum and it has helped me so much. I don't post much except to say "thank you" from time to time to the people who have made some program that has been helpful to me. And although I have been coming to this board every day for over a year I still don't know half as much as the majority of people here.
Some solutions to this problem are:
1) get frustrated and write a mean message to the noob
2) take a minute and just give the link to the page where the answer is
3) make it easier on this forum to find things

_Nomad_ said:
Haven't been a wizard user that long although I've been in the ppc scene in about 5 years and quite active in several forums. The most successful solution that I've seen to this problem (witch enevitably always comes up) is to not let new users post for at least 7 days and/or forcing them to read various informational topics before getting access to the actual forum.
This will of course not get everyone but has in my experience improved the situation considerably.
Ah well, that's just my two cents
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That could be nice... part of the things that had contributed to the bad search results are the tons of new threads asking the very same questions over and over and over again... is there anyway to disable these threads from showing up in the search results? Maybe it's time for us to out up another sticky thread specifically talking abóut G4 devices =)

vseehua said:
That could be nice... part of the things that had contributed to the bad search results are the tons of new threads asking the very same questions over and over and over again... is there anyway to disable these threads from showing up in the search results? Maybe it's time for us to out up another sticky thread specifically talking abóut G4 devices =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would like to see a thread dedicated to G4 devices, with verified correct information in it.
It isnt just people asking the same questions over and over making the search junk. Its the inability to even search for simple short 3 letter acronyms like CID, IPL, SPL, AKU. These are all things I have tried to search for and get 0 results. If I were able to search for these terms I could probably turn up a wealth of information on my own.

_Nomad_ said:
Haven't been a wizard user that long although I've been in the ppc scene in about 5 years and quite active in several forums. The most successful solution that I've seen to this problem (witch enevitably always comes up) is to not let new users post for at least 7 days and/or forcing them to read various informational topics before getting access to the actual forum.
This will of course not get everyone but has in my experience improved the situation considerably.
Ah well, that's just my two cents
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would work me thinks!!!!!

Hi all,
I've been reading this forum for weeks now and still have not found enough answers to be secure enough and cid-unlock my G3 2.21 vario.
I HAVE indeed read most relevant threads, although navigating them can be somewhat confusing. However When I posted some -in my n00b opinion - valid questions I either got 1) no reply whatsoever 2) replies to read "the" threads....which wasn't really helpfull or I wouldn't have asked 3) contradicting advice .... like a 2.21 G3 Can be unlocked, or it Cannot be unlocked, you have to downgrade twice, you have to upgrade twice, you Can or Cannot flash a G4 rom to a G3 device so you won't have to downgrade and CID unlock your phone first, etc.
I believe that I am somewhat beyond the real n00b level right now but still I'd like information to be more consistent and easier to find, I've already tried to suggest making a stickied n00b FAQ or wiki for us where to find the basic answers in a easy and consistent manner so the sdame questions aren't asked over and over and ROM threads hijacked for support questions.
but that is just my cup of tea.
thanks for a good forum with vlauable info.
stefan.

Regular search
Personally, I find using google or yahoo, with site:xda-developers.com, works much better than the forum search. My personal pet peeve is the inability to use quotes to search for phrases. Quotes don't work.
A major problem with "read the threads" is the 800+ entry length of some of them. It would be nice to try to harness the power of those of us newly figuring things out and ask them to submit a wiki for something they just learned. If we had a submission point for the wiki, perhaps those of us who recently learned new things would do a how-to write-up and submit it to the wiki.
Finally, there are a lot of repeat threads, many with false or useless information. These threads stand in the way of a searcher. I would be happier if the moderators deleted more bad threads. Alternatively, we could use democracy -- add a "vote to delete" button to every thread not posted by a moderator and if a high enough percentage vote to delete, the thread is gone. I'd suggest 20% as a threshold -- more than that and the thread goes away.

Have been reading all your comments and completely agree with you guys... I see you have specific problems on G3/G4 on Wizards, as someone suggested a separate subforum for G4 devices would be ideal for you, and also for Prophet I guess.
About the search functions I'm also using google to search as a fallback when I can't find specific things using vBulletin's integrated search function, there's a thread on the mod forum where we discussed how to improve it, but seems is not very active now... will try to push Flar to do something about that.
Regarding the wiki, I think everyone should be less afraid to edit, if you look at the "recent changes" you see always the same people is editing. Have a look at the Hermes or BlueAngel wiki pages, these are good examples on how info has to be organized on the wiki, it's easy to find everything on the front page and information is well divided. Formating may seem a bit complicated at the beginning, but you don't have to care too much if you just want to add content, sure someone more experienced with wiki syntax will edit and correct any bad formating mistakes.

I do 100% agree with you that the wiki itself doesn't cover half of what it should. Yet if you take the time to read through it, and the links, you should be quite familiar with your device...
And oh yeah, sure, you can't search for keywords less than four characters, but that's not really an excuse... look at the thread containing the latest Faria ROM. Half... Half of what the thread contains is the same question over and over again... those ppl didn't even read the initial post of the thread... they found the download link, tried to install the ROM, got problem and went right to work, posting their (stupid) question all over again and again... The problem was never the limited search capabilities... It's always the ppl...
A board without limitations always get bloated with crap, whether it's unwanted commercial och just plain stupid posts...
So, unfortunatly this is going to continue unless you put constraints on the board... I'm sorry, but that's what's gonna happen.

Seems to me that since this was posted the situation has sorta escalated... Faria, Molski, risidoro and just now Dr P has announced their leave.
In this rate all that'll be left will be the newbies soon. Sad to witness

_Nomad_ said:
And oh yeah, sure, you can't search for keywords less than four characters, but that's not really an excuse... look at the thread containing the latest Faria ROM. Half... Half of what the thread contains is the same question over and over again... those ppl didn't even read the initial post of the thread... they found the download link, tried to install the ROM, got problem and went right to work, posting their (stupid) question all over again and again... The problem was never the limited search capabilities... It's always the ppl...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's also very human.
_Nomad_ said:
A board without limitations always get bloated with crap, whether it's unwanted commercial och just plain stupid posts...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There just should be enough moderators. Now what happens when you write something stupid is you also get useless answers like "don't do that" which just makes everything even worse. There should be a "FAQ"-section, there should be a "how-to"-section etc...but there isn't. The forum structure is FAR TOO SIMPLE to handle the amount of messages.
Two main things to handle this (just my opinion):
Re-designed forum structure
Moderators
(well, the structure should be designed in the first place so that it would be easy to extend it later...not an easy job)

prestonmcafee said:
...A major problem with "read the threads" is the 800+ entry length of some of them. It would be nice to try to harness the power of those of us newly figuring things out...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I usually suggest to those asking questions to post the solution to their question in the first post. But I'm over at the Mio forums, and since we only have 4500 peps, the mods aren't overwhelmed. I can lock a thread, post the correct thread to post in, and a few days later, delete the thread. I spend 1/2 my time using the search function to consolidate questions into single threads. But like I said, that's not feasible here. I suggest a PM sent to everyone the registers, that is kind of a quick start guide. I understand why the 3 letter limit, because people type words like "the" and "and". I'm not sure how powerful the forum software is, but it would be nice to remove the size limit, and omit such words as mentioned above, from the search.
Regards,
Jason

mlehtola said:
There should be a "FAQ"-section, there should be a "how-to"-section etc...but there isn't. The forum structure is FAR TOO SIMPLE to handle the amount of messages.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummm, have you ever taken the time to look at the Wiki?
This forum is being provided to us basically for free. (Except for voluntary donations.) I personally can't afford to donate $$$ to the community, or for that matter to individual developers, so I dedicate some time to post in the forums to share what I've learned. I have also donated time to updating the Wiki.
If the Wiki doesn't contain all you would like it to, just add it yourself! One brief tutorial could make a world of difference to a newbie, or even a more experienced user. It also helps to point out gaps in the general knowledge we have here in these forums.
If, for example, there isn't a sub-forum for the device you use, you don't have to wait for the moderators, etc. to create it. Just create a Wiki page, and get the ball rolling on your own!
Take the initiative! That's what these forums were founded on!
Just my opinion.
Now go have fun!

JKR said:
I suggest a PM sent to everyone the registers, that is kind of a quick start guide. I understand why the 3 letter limit, because people type words like "the" and "and". I'm not sure how powerful the forum software is, but it would be nice to remove the size limit, and omit such words as mentioned above, from the search.
Regards,
Jason
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, you get much better, and more detailed search results by using a search-engine like Google. Their advanced search features do a fantastic job, and can be fine tuned to search only through a specific site. (i.e. http://forum.xdadevelopers.com )
Secondly, as opposed to a PM, possibly an email with a confirmation link after the introductory information.
Hope this helps....
Now go have fun!

I think it is more synonymous of the world today, do you read the manual when you buy a new stereo or mobile phone, or do you dig in saying 'nah i know how it works it'll be ok'. People just dont take the time to understand first, they think they know it all and then the proverbial hits the fan! As an experienced R&D firmware developer it doesn't matter how easy I make the interface you will always get those that stuff it up!
So not such an easy one to fix, you have given the masses a place to ask the ridiculous and the tools to stuff up easily, How do you fix that?
Riptos

What to do with Newbies..?

I'm saddened by the high increase of irrelevant posts, and even more about the sometimes aggressive responses given to newbies.
As I see it, there is no way to completely get rid of newbies' questions or posts. So, the poll' question is: what should be the best attitude toward irrelevant posts/questions?
I hope this poll might contribute some how in having a better conduct and efficiency here in XDA.
Cheers everyone
FYI, check also XDA official' RULES: Please read this before posting

You need another voting option: post a link to the appropriate page/site (Wiki, MrVanx's Guide etc) and advise them to read as much as possible and understand what they are doing before they create a very expensive brick, without wasting time insulting and looking like an arrogant ****.
Short polite and to the point.
Unless you have a hangover of course........

I second that option

That didn't even work in this case.
That one's not even smart enough to click on the hyperlink to get the information he was "spoon fed".

newbie2 said:
That didn't even work in this case.
That one's not even smart enough to click on the hyperlink to get the information he was "spoon fed".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tragic....i cant beleive people like this do anything else on their phone other than pressing numbers and hitting send/end.

chrisjasper said:
You need another voting option: post a link to the appropriate page/site (Wiki, MrVanx's Guide etc) and advise them to read as much as possible and understand what they are doing before they create a very expensive brick, without wasting time insulting and looking like an arrogant ****.
Short polite and to the point.
Unless you have a hangover of course........
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the 3rd option is the one that comes nearest in this situation.

Here´s a proposal
Prerna said:
I'm saddened by the high increase of irrelevant posts, and even more about the sometimes aggressive responses given to newbies.
As I see it, there is no way to completely get rid of newbies' questions or posts. So, the poll' question is: what should be the best attitude toward irrelevant posts/questions?
I hope this poll might contribute some how in having a better conduct and efficiency here in XDA.
Cheers everyone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I´m a member of another forum (not related to phones nor PPCs !) Whenever a question comes on an issue of those already answered a ton of times the moderator "sends the member posting the question TO READ", this means that this member has no right to post anything during a week. I don´t know if this forum has such capability and I don´t know neither if the mods would be willing to take this "extra" job.

Sounds quite drastic, although maybe a base to think of other possibilities how to handle the issue.
Surely, XDA deserves better than what I've seen in the past few weeks in the Hermes' forum.

Answer the question or STFU
But above all, don't reply to the post with an RTFM Noob post only. Maybe answer the question then do an RTFM in the same post.
RTFM posts add no value whatsoever, aside from making the poster feel smart.
-Humbert

Prerna said:
I'm saddened by the high increase of irrelevant posts, and even more about the sometimes aggressive responses given to newbies.
As I see it, there is no way to completely get rid of newbies' questions or posts. So, the poll' question is: what should be the best attitude toward irrelevant posts/questions?
I hope this poll might contribute some how in having a better conduct and efficiency here in XDA.
Cheers everyone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am new to this forum. But, I have to agree we need aggressive measure to deal with people don't do the work of search.
Personally, I don't have many posts because I can find answers to almost all of my questions just by searching and spend time reading. So, not all newbies are bad, but you need to deal with the bad ones with a hard hand.

You senior members are getting about as bad on this issue as the newbies asking the same questions over and over. If you would have used the search button, you would have found that there have been 3950 threads about what to do with newbies and 423,654 flame posts to a newbie. Okay, so that was a joke but, for the love of all things holy, can we move on?
Sincerely,
Newbie who uses search button, has read the wiki (in part so far) and who doesn't ask questions that could in any way be misconstrued as not having done the aforementioned.
Scratch that. I am now a junior member. Woohoo for me!

help them,
some people are not pda svay and new to it all,they may have had a cell prior and dont work in a tech/IT role so may not be to sharp on a lot of the tech side
Everyone starts somewere,if you can take the time to reply with an insult or try google ,then you can find the time to point em in the right direction
Imagine if you took your car to be looked at and got the same response,ok the info is free and you can use search,but a little help goes a long way
its the net ,use it to gain info and spread it,not sit being smug or post insults
if we all use the net to its full potential we can achive so many things

i am sure we all have been newbies before. how would you have like to be treated/replied?
i suggest if the noob question is polite, then answer it politely and give some advise on how to use the search function and the wiki.
if the noob question is somehow impolite, aggressive, etc., perhaps a little apprehension/reminder is required.

jaceuk said:
help them,
some people are not pda svay and new to it all,they may have had a cell prior and dont work in a tech/IT role so may not be to sharp on a lot of the tech side
Everyone starts somewere,if you can take the time to reply with an insult or try google ,then you can find the time to point em in the right direction
Imagine if you took your car to be looked at and got the same response,ok the info is free and you can use search,but a little help goes a long way
its the net ,use it to gain info and spread it,not sit being smug or post insults
if we all use the net to its full potential we can achive so many things
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've taken your car to be looked at and NOT got the same response?
Wow, you have nicer car mechanics in your area.....

There are various levels of noob, which need to be distinguished between.
There are those who have tried to search and read but not fund the answer, although it may be there. (maybe wrong search terms)
There are those who have not looked hard enough and are just being lazy. (perhaps they were put off by the huge number of posts etc)
There are those who demand answers without looking.
There are those who demand answers to questions which demonstrate that they really have not even tried to get any kind of an idea of what they are doing.
Favourite recent examples are :
CAN I LOAD WINDOWS MOBILE 6.0 ON SONYERICSSON M600i (UIQ 3)
i have downloaded black v3 but want to check if it will install to my Dell Axim aswell as my spv????
Where can I get Windows Mobile 6?

Tis funny, another post on what to do with us...
Hi, as a noob myself, new to the hermes, nothing else... I lurked here for a while before actually registering... I was really disheartened by the posts of RTFM and the like... I tried searching for my answers with the limited capabilities of this forum (don't get me wrong, I like the forum, but the search sux), but rarely could find what I was looking for... It wasn't until someone actually included a link to another noob with the various ways to successfully search the forum, that I decided to register...
If we could use the google search link as a sticky, it may help... I believe that the google advanced search link is included in the FAQs, if not, it should be... but I have simply added it to my sig... My suggestion would be for those of us who tire from 'ignorant' posts to do likewise...
(turn back on crowd and leave soapbox for next speaker)

Google search sticky
debonairone said:
If we could use the google search link as a sticky, it may help... I believe that the google advanced search link is included in the FAQs, if not, it should be...
(turn back on crowd and leave soapbox for next speaker)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It´s been there for a while
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=304582
By the way, check it, it´s been updated recently with good info for the WM6 adicts....

Read this!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=304959

Whatever. You know the seniors' stance is questionable when the entire purpose of setting up another private forum is to "get away from n00bs", and when you hit 100 posts you aren't even allowed to ask a simple, obscure question because it appeared in a topic like more than 6 months ago, and you're supposed to be "experienced" enough to know.

Everyone here has valid points, but it still doesn't solve the problem... It will not be an easy one to solve, as long as the search function is not blatantly put in front of noobs... As I said before, I lurked for a while before even registering because of the flaming posts for "stupid" questions... Need everyone be reminded that English is not the first language for everyone on this board...? That makes it a little harder for someone to properly search for the correct items and locate them... Then they are tasked with understanding what is written... And since it has become okay to use acronyms while typing, translators cannot keep up... Hell, it took me a couple of hours to figure out what RTFM meant...
Anyway, making things a bit easier for those with less knowledge cannot possibly be a wrong turn...

HTC Diamond ROM

Hi Guys
i need your help i just bought an HTC Diamond yesterday and i am dissapointed, the device has a number of issues 1 is that the touch flo is not smooth and there is about 3 to 5 secs lag time, second is that the battery life is crap. anyways i read on the net that an updated ROM can fix these issues, the current ROM VERSION i am using is 1.35.456.3 WWE, please let me know if there are newer ROM versions and where i can download them,p.s. will ROM upgrade actually fix the battery life issues as well as memory leak. I really hope that the touch pro doesn't have all these issues.

This isn't the correct forum. If you had actually read the rules you agreed to when you signed up, you might have noticed that one said SEARCH BEFORE YOU POST! So if you had done this, you would have found what you're looking for.
Normally, under these circumstances, I would direct you there, but seeing as it's called Diamond ROM Development, I'll let you find it yourself

you can find all your answers in my signature link

to answer your question without the entire search first part:
1. yes there is a newer one
2. look in the diamond development rom section

rorydaredkign said:
This isn't the correct forum. If you had actually read the rules you agreed to when you signed up, you might have noticed that one said SEARCH BEFORE YOU POST! So if you had done this, you would have found what you're looking for.
Normally, under these circumstances, I would direct you there, but seeing as it's called Diamond ROM Development, I'll let you find it yourself
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Has it ever occured to you that one might be in a hurry to solve a big issue, if you can't help a new comer and direct them corrctly then u should keep your comments to your self. I mean we are humans and we all make mistakes but that doesn't mean you come out and bite people's heads off. Thats the problem with the world today instead of stopping and helping u choose to be agressive and blame them, anyways i am happy to say that other more thoughtful members of this forum helped me. Thanks..

Well, I don't really want to flame your posts but Rorydaredkign is right maybe not the right way to say it
The information you seek are just 2 clicks away from the button "new topic" and a little search might help find anything you need but obviously you did not take a bit of your time to browse the forum...
As a new comer, do not take anything for granted!

@original poster
If you can get 1.37 to load up and apply some of the settings in the Diamond Tweaks sticky you will find things a lot better.
I would stay away from tweak number two in that thread though as most people have found it renders their handset inoperable and have to hard reset. However, as you will have to hard-reset to upgrade anyway you might want to give it a go.
I agree with you about the aggression. I understand the power of search but when you're new, a string of posts telling you to use the search, when it would have been quicker to answer the question, is unnecessary - and not really community spirited.

Sorry to flame, but in about 3 weeks, this forum has degenerated from a place of discussion to a place where noobs just ask and don't search. And thats slightly annoying.
But, I'll say no more.
Rory

noob
rorydaredkign said:
Sorry to flame, but in about 3 weeks, this forum has degenerated from a place of discussion to a place where noobs just ask and don't search. And thats slightly annoying.
But, I'll say no more.
Rory
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And what makes you not a noob are countless posts like the one above which have elevated you to "Senior Member". Congratulations on your achievement.

arisg said:
And what makes you not a noob are countless posts like the one above which have elevated you to "Senior Member". Congratulations on your achievement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well for one, I know how to search
And the thing is, like I said, normally I would search myself, then post a link, but when there's an actual forum called Diamond ROM Development, I couldn't be ****ed.
And you say its posts like this which have made me senior, but you're wrong.
Granted, I tell people to search, and I should probably just say nothing, but before, people have told me off for describing in detail something which can be found by a 2 word search or in the wiki.
So don't just think I go round telling people they're noobs, I don't usually, But here I have.
Rory

Peace, people! This forum isn't the right place for this kind of discussions

ok guys since i started this i will make an attempt to end it,
"rorydaredkign"- i understand ur frustration and i am sure your senior member due to more positive reasons than knowing how to search, but it is wrong to bite people's heads of just because they do not know something even though it is two clicks or one click away, i mean take an example ur in a new place u have never been and when u ask for directions people bit ur head off and tell u why not get a map. You should put ur self in my shoes, i just purchased the diamond its expensive and its not working propoerly so i was freaking out and was trying to get help as quickly as possible, if i had time on my hand i would sit and search and go through the whole forum. There is no need to go around calling people names we are all mature here and name calling is something we all left back in junior school, by you going around the forum and calling people noobs just displays u as an unprofessional character, This forum is set up so that people everywhere can assist each other and share the knowledge, so please lets burry this hatchet and try our level best to maintain strong good community. Let us leave this issue behind us and move on with what is really important. Not that there is a need to applogise but i feel i should applogise for asking a question when i could have searched and found what i was looking for. Having said that i still enjoy this forum i think its fantastic and there is alot to learn from everyone here, thanks to everyone for their contribution.

why people!?!?!

i dont know why people have to be so f**** rude in here. "use the damn search and etc" all we asking for is for f**** help, i know we have to use the "SEARCH" but damn f***! if you don't feel like helping someone, just shut the f*** up and dont say anything or be rude about it.

This has been discussed already. Please use the Search link up at the top right.

lol, and this is supposed to be a polite post? Come on, lighten up, if the same questions get asked for a thousand times, then i can imagine people sometimes like to point out the search feature of the site

trichau81 said:
i dont know why people have to be so f**** rude in here. "use the damn search and etc" all we asking for is for f**** help, i know we have to use the "SEARCH" but damn f***! if you don't feel like helping someone, just shut the f*** up and dont say anything or be rude about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No my friend, what is rude is to ask other people to waste their time because you are too lazy to do a little bit of research for yourself.

If you can help someone then help them, if you can't then don't. If you just don't want to help then you are just a user. The most repeated thing I have read in these forums is "use the search" if that is the only comment you can make then get lost! It is true in here that some who think they know something are just abrupt and rude to people who they think know less than themselves. Wisdom expresses itself in many ways, the least of which is "use the search".

Please use the search function.
Its there for your service!

We are all here for each others service.

uniqueboy said:
If you can help someone then help them, if you can't then don't. If you just don't want to help then you are just a user. The most repeated thing I have read in these forums is "use the search" if that is the only comment you can make then get lost! It is true in here that some who think they know something are just abrupt and rude to people who they think know less than themselves. Wisdom expresses itself in many ways, the least of which is "use the search".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said! I must say, as a new user (but a seasoned veteran of similar dev sites), I have been dismayed at how simple questions here from noobs like me, are frequently greeted with thinly veiled contempt and disgust.
I just made a prototype app for the Diamond that uses the G sensor, and would like to get some feedback from folks, but I'm reluctant to start a new thread on the topic in case I unintentionally incur the wrath of the the veterans here!

snigfargle said:
I just made a prototype app for the Diamond that uses the G sensor, and would like to get some feedback from folks, but I'm reluctant to start a new thread on the topic in case I unintentionally incur the wrath of the the veterans here!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure you won't. Your thread will be most welcome.
However, I strongly feel that anybody should try and do some simple research before asking for help. I don't believe it's very polite (nor educational, for that matter) to simply write a post that essentially says: my time is too important to waste on trivial things like trying to find information, but since your time has no value to me, why don't you do that?
I often tried to find things when answering to others if the issue was not described in the forum. If, on the contrary, it has been discussed (and in many cases more than once), I believe that the Search button should be used.
It would be rude not to...

Actually I think it is pretty sad that most people have nothing better to do than to flame people in forums. If you see a question that is addressed somewhere else then either point the person in that direction or just don't answer. I have to agree that sometimes it is not that the person is using the search link but perhaps they are not searching correctly. This is a professional forum and we do not need unprofessional people in it so please play nice everyone.

A lot of the questions on here remind me of the 300ZX forum I used to go on... "I want to do a Twin Turbo swap, what do I need?" How many times do you think that question was answered? How many stickies do you think there were about that same question? Here's what the veterans are trying to make you do... Come into the forum, search for your answer first, then after you don't find it, ask. It prevents the forum from being cluttered and lets the people who really DO have unanswered questions to get answers more quickly. I'm not going to be mean or disrespectful about it, but please, if for nothing else, for the efficiency of helping each other, try to find the answer on your own before you ask a question.

It wouldn't be so bad if the Diamond forums were old with 100s of threads and the question being asked was last answered weeks ago. But the Diamond forums are relatively new and most of the questions being asked have already been asked on the current page or the page 2. You don't even need to use search to find the answer.
I've only been flashing for less than 2 weeks and so far have managed to find all the tools and guides I need by reading the posts on pages 1 and 2. I didn't need to go any deeper or use search.
So if anyone asks a question which has already been answered dozens of times then you should expect a few people to get annoyed. Afterall it takes less effort to read then for someone to type out an explanation again an again.
Also, a lot of questions are too vague, e.g. I can't flash the hardspl. Maybe if you spent a bit more effort saying what you have tried and exactly where the problem is then you might get more help.

uniqueboy said:
If you can help someone then help them, if you can't then don't. If you just don't want to help then you are just a user. The most repeated thing I have read in these forums is "use the search" if that is the only comment you can make then get lost! It is true in here that some who think they know something are just abrupt and rude to people who they think know less than themselves. Wisdom expresses itself in many ways, the least of which is "use the search".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree 100%. Yeah I get a bit miffed reading the same basic questions, but then when you do use the search engine, it brings back 100's of threads at times, which a new comer to the ppc world might not fully understand.
I had my first ppc phone back with the Blue Angel, and so many guys have helped me along the way since then. It's only the minority who say "Use the search!!!". But having said that, I think this is the least friendly/most abusive ppc forum. I get the general feeling that a few guys in here are above their stations...
Just my 2 pence worth. Not "cents" as I'm British. If you don't know where Britain is, or its monetary system, then use the f**king sear......

snigfargle said:
Well said! I must say, as a new user (but a seasoned veteran of similar dev sites), I have been dismayed at how simple questions here from noobs like me, are frequently greeted with thinly veiled contempt and disgust.
I just made a prototype app for the Diamond that uses the G sensor, and would like to get some feedback from folks, but I'm reluctant to start a new thread on the topic in case I unintentionally incur the wrath of the the veterans here!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bro:
If you offer us any kind of app with those characteristics you will never incur in the wrath of the the veterans here!

1. new posts that contains or starts with:crappy, wtf (this is real special to me), what to buy, battery life, gps, what programs, who is better, iPhone, how to? (the answer in the manual), polls-bring the killer instinct in me.
2, new posts that contains or starts with:i can not, help, my diamond.., how to ?, where to find, i searched but...., confused-bring the mother Theresa buried deep in me.
3. new posts that contains or starts with:i developed, solved, news, new program, new game, how to (without question mark)-bring up the happy me together with "lets donate", let's be encouraging answer post.
this is not a graffiti wall. this is a place with rules (when you registered you accepted the rules) and don't start useless threads/posts is one of them.
respect the rules and by doing so you respect the place and it's inhabitants.
giving respect will bring you back respect.
interesting threads are pushed back in 2-nd and 3-thrd page by threads started just to chat. the forum is full with such posts started usually by a noobie that is soon joined but 5-8 other noobies that are happily chating about something that's only by far related with diamond. each posts, each answer is bumping the thread up.
since my diamond is today how i wished to be and i don't have to search (ooops, sorry for using dirty words) for answers or tweaks i found great pleasure in helping ppl that need help but only ppl that at least tried to solve, to search and help themselves first.
i dont know why people have to be so rude in here. "use the damn search and etc" all we asking for is help, i know we have to use the "SEARCH" if you don't feel like helping someone, just shut up and dont say anything or be rude about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first, watch yr language please!
second, i took the liberty to edit yr post. looks better and the message remain the same.
third, sending you to search is help because it means that the solution of yr problem is here somewhere buried between all the posts (too many useless, but who is to blame?). when looking for it you'll usually read posts that you''l remember later when trying to solve other problems. search is good for you and yr diamond.
keep the forum clean ppl!

KukurikU said:
... sending you to search is help because it means that the solution of yr problem is here somewhere buried between useless posts. when looking for it you'll usually read posts that you''l remember later when trying to solve other problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very good points there KukurikU.
If the Diamond forum wasn't so full of posts which should be in the General forum then it would be easier to find Diamond specific answers.
And, like you said, while searching for an answer to a problem I've read other posts along the way which taught me things I never knew.

trichau81 said:
i dont know why people have to be so f**** rude in here. "use the damn search and etc" all we asking for is for f**** help, i know we have to use the "SEARCH" but damn f***! if you don't feel like helping someone, just shut the f*** up and dont say anything or be rude about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is one thing i don't understand. This is you're first post so no one has send you to the search function. Maybe you have read a question from a poster with a certain history? Otherwise i don't get i why you register yourself to a forum and start a bad topic.

marco899 said:
There is one thing i don't understand. This is you're first post so no one has send you to the search function. Maybe you have read a question from a poster with a certain history? Otherwise i don't get i why you register yourself to a forum and start a bad topic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hahahaha that's something I didn't notice... He's looking at other users being told to use search and sticking up for them? Lame.

Why did this discussion get started in the Diamond Forum in the first place. This is a general discussion and not related to the Diamond specifically and is yet itself another example of how specific forums get cluttered and why it can get difficult to find what you are looking for in a specific forum.

pedmond said:
No my friend, what is rude is to ask other people to waste their time because you are too lazy to do a little bit of research for yourself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont answer the Q then and your time wont be wasted! Sometimes its hard to find the answer with the search function and even if you find the thread it could be 50-something pages long...