Database Develop

Anyone here in the I.T Field?

Hey guys, I just had some quick questions for anyone here that may be in the I.T field..
Im 23 years old and ive decided to go back to school.. so currently im working on an Associates Degree in I.T and trying to get my certs out of the way (CCENT, CCNA and CompTIA A+) But im not going to stop here... computers are a HUGE interest of mine.. I plan to continue on for a bachelors degree in I.T and possibly even a masters after that..
Basically for anyone in the field, do you like what you do? Do you find it interesting? How is the starting pay rate? I live near a major U.S City (NYC) And dont mind commuting back and fourth into the city for work... I was HOPING to start out making 50+ a year with just my associates and certs.. is this being unreasonable?? Someone told me that I.T professionals only start at like 30 grand a year which seems pretty scary to me
My ultimate goal is to be a Database Administrator and run / manage a companys servers / network, however I dont expect that with an Associates, most likely a bachelors+ would be needed??
Basically if anyone has any info about the field that theyd like to share with me, im open ears becaue im extremely interested in this career and any insight would be appreciated.. thank you

I would love to give you some advice, but I mainly work in the S.H.I.T fields
Scent phrum mie fone!

I have a Bachelor of Engineering in IT. There's such a vast range of areas in IT, that there's always something different or exciting, depending on what you like.
But regarding salaries...doesn't matter what qualifications you have, it's experience that people want, so yes you'll start pretty low if its your first real job in IT, unless you get lucky.

I have done quite a bit of studying for the career because I want to get into it myself. But usually the minimum requirement is a bachelors degree in that field. The starting salary for where I live is 80k which is a lot more than 30k if you ask me haha It's a wide career of choice and you'll always be needed somewhere. Just make sure you keep learning.

the_scotsman said:
(snip)
But regarding salaries...doesn't matter what qualifications you have, it's experience that people want, so yes you'll start pretty low if its your first real job in IT, unless you get lucky.
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+1
In my experience, it is better to know that most sysadmins don't document their fixes because IT support is very often undermanned. That's why my boss was very glad that I have some IT background (for some basic troubleshooting at least) and can take quite a load off my company's IT department (combination of cluelessness, lack of cutting edge knowledge AND turnaround time).
Another thing you might find frustrating is that users=stupid. Unless they are smart, then they try to be too smart and you'd get more interesting cases
Last but not least:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/odds/bofh/

As somebody who has been in IT for 13 years. (Holly Crap~!) I would suggest getting a job now. Doesn't matter where who why what and when you need experience. When I hire people I first look at their resume and look for progression. If they are just starting out that isn't as big of an issue. I then look at the descriptions of their jobs, I and most other Managers or Directors are fairly good at detecting BS at least in my experience. I then look at certifications, and this goes back to progression. If you got an A+, and a bunch of other certs in 2000, that isn't nearly as appealing as somebody who shows progression but doesn't have as many certs. Last I look at what if any degree's they have. In the interview I require people to take a simulated test, if it is a basic tech, then its a basic test. For a Network Admin they better be able to console into a switch and find and fix a vlan problem. I don't know how common this is in the industry but it blows me away how many people appear to have the skills required for a position and then fail to do the most basic of tasks for the job they are applying for. This is where experience is KEY! For the most part I don't value a degree, some do but I find that most of the skills required to be successful come from personality and experience.
Also there are TONS of different categories/specialties in IT, Most DBA's don't actually know much about infrastructure, etc.
And then beyond all that different industries have different demands for IT. For instance I worked in the dot com era eCommerce industry for a while, then in the construction (Architectural), and now in healthcare. If you have experience in a particular industry outside of IT I would suggest trying to get into IT in that industry.
I hope all of this helps.
PS For a specialization I recommend virtualization. I had to take my Resume down from careerbuilder because of all the people contacting me based on my VMware / HyperV Experience. I like my job now and don't plan on moving but there seems to be a high demand for that now.

job experience and certs and probably in that order. Degree's in IT are about as useful as coasters, job experience and core competency is what matters and you get almost none of that from a degree

Software developer here with a BENG in Computer Communications - Degree + experience = the big bucks but still depends what area you go into, currently looking at £30k + (UK) with a 2:1 and 3+ years experience for programming but it's only going up from here.
Love what I do gets stressful at times but you just need to find an area you enjoy and stick with it.

sakai4eva said:
+1
Another thing you might find frustrating is that users=stupid. Unless they are smart, then they try to be too smart and you'd get more interesting cases
]
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I'm a sysadmin. This comment is my bread and butter for advice

I'm a software developer in england. Primarily self taught and no real qualifications to speak of.
Experience trumps qualifications in my experience.

[OT] Learning the ins and outs of java.

I'm a sophomore in high school taking computer science. (please don't judge me because of my age) Our school is making some major budget cuts, so sadly our video game programming and design class (the only other higher level programming class offered) got cut and this will be my last and only programming class at my school (well there's a possibility that it will be brought back in my senior year, but I'd at least like to stay fresh over the summer and next year). I don't know much about java to tell you the truth. I know how to use loops, conditionals, arrays (1 and 2 dimensional) and arraylists and most of the basic variable types (off of the top of my head, integers, doubles, booleans, longs, and strings). I've made some very very simple apps such as whack a mole and craps, but the gui class was provided by my teacher.
My question is this: is there a good, preferably free online program that teaches you the basics of java (especially related to the gui) and possibly some more complex programming?
I appreciate any help. thanks.
P.S. Please forgive me if this is too off-topic, but I really couldn't think of a better place to post this. Hope you guys will be able to help.

gonintendo said:
I'm a sophomore in high school taking computer science. (please don't judge me because of my age) Our school is making some major budget cuts, so sadly our video game programming and design class (the only other higher level programming class offered) got cut and this will be my last and only programming class at my school (well there's a possibility that it will be brought back in my senior year, but I'd at least like to stay fresh over the summer and next year). I don't know much about java to tell you the truth. I know how to use loops, conditionals, arrays (1 and 2 dimensional) and arraylists and most of the basic variable types (off of the top of my head, integers, doubles, booleans, longs, and strings). I've made some very very simple apps such as whack a mole and craps, but the gui class was provided by my teacher.
My question is this: is there a good, preferably free online program that teaches you the basics of java (especially related to the gui) and possibly some more complex programming?
I appreciate any help. thanks.
P.S. Please forgive me if this is too off-topic, but I really couldn't think of a better place to post this. Hope you guys will be able to help.
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Go to Youtube.....search for a guy named "thenewboston"
He has a whole series of java programming lectures that saved me in my Advanced Java course in college....

Mr. Apocalypse said:
Go to Youtube.....search for a guy named "thenewboston"
He has a whole series of java programming lectures that saved me in my Advanced Java course in college....
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Thanks! I'll make sure to check him out!

I was in the same place as you a while back. The best way to learn is by trying to make something you want.
Before jumping into any serious programming you need to learn a few more important concepts. Methods, classes, objects, and more on those. You need to understand how it all works before going further.
If you have any questions feel free to message me or hit me up on gtalk. I'll give you some tips, ideas, and some source code of apps to dig into, if you like.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

the basics:
http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/
http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/
now go to some university's entry level cs website and do some of the programming assignments.
but if you know control flow, some data structures, types, etc. just program. there are a ton of simple things to write. for example, write a calculator that has an add method that just adds the two arguments, then write recursive multiplication, factorial, and exponential methods that only use add (or other methods you wrote). it's simple, but decent recursion practice. i could give you a ton of simple programs to write.
oh and pay attention to what everything actually is. read and understand what static, private, public, classes, objects, etc. actually are and their purpose.

birgertime said:
I was in the same place as you a while back. The best way to learn is by trying to make something you want.
Before jumping into any serious programming you need to learn a few more important concepts. Methods, classes, objects, and more on those. You need to understand how it all works before going further.
If you have any questions feel free to message me or hit me up on gtalk. I'll give you some tips, ideas, and some source code of apps to dig into, if you like.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
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I should have added, I have a basic understanding of methods and classes, and we are just getting into objects now.
Thanks for all the responses guys! really appreciate the help.

also, if you guys have any suggestions for simple apps that a beginner like my self could make, fire away.

I applaud you for beginning a hobby/interest in programming early. Currently I'm a 2nd year student at a university for Computer Science so I have a very direct understanding of Java. You should know that structure of Java (for every day use) is different than that of the Java on Android.
Download the Android SDK: developer.android.com/sdk/index.html
Follow all the steps of installation and DO the Hello, Android (World) app that it gives you. Make sure you UNDERSTAND everything on the screen and in your main class.
Continue reading all the Developer documents for the SDK here:
developer.android.com/guide/index.html

Joy2DaWurld said:
I applaud you for beginning a hobby/interest in programming early. Currently I'm a 2nd year student at a university for Computer Science so I have a very direct understanding of Java. You should know that structure of Java (for every day use) is different than that of the Java on Android.
Download the Android SDK: developer.android.com/sdk/index.html
Follow all the steps of installation and DO the Hello, Android (World) app that it gives you. Make sure you UNDERSTAND everything on the screen and in your main class.
Continue reading all the Developer documents for the SDK here:
developer.android.com/guide/index.html
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Thanks! I had kind of figured that android developement would be a whole different beast.

Who is this "java" girl and why would you like to go in and out and in and out of her?

What can I say? Different strokes.

gonintendo said:
What can I say? Different strokes.
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Perhaps you would like to have a go at Missionary Java or K9 Java.

I can sell you my 'Programming with Alice and Java' textbook...if I find it. It has all the intro stuff. First it uses a program called Alice to teach you how it works, and then it teaches you to do actual code. When I find it I can tell you where it leaves off.

[Q] College

I'm just curious, I'm 18, and will be attending college at the end of the summer UT to be exact, and I'm not sure what I want to do after I finish my basics. I'm going for computer engineer, but I'm not not sure that's what i'm exactly trying to do, I want to build my own phone, and send it to manufacturers, but I'm not sure what class I should be taking for this, or even where to start?
Am I taking the right course? Or am I way off?

Sorry for being so off topic.
YEAHHHHHHHHHHH UT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Computer engineering sounds good.
You need to start looking into internship opportunities right away. Here's a good start:
http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5517&from=fund

If you really want to build your a phone from scratch, then you need to consider about electrical engineering instead. I am not implying CompE is a bad idea, but most school's CompE curriculum do not require the study of electromagnetic, fields/waves, communications, and barely touches on analog. Those courses are very essential to what you want to do. I am about to graduate in EE with a RF/microwave concentration, and these stuffs are no cake at all...

From one Texan to another i welcome you to one of the best states in America.
That said you probably want to either go into hardware engineer, electrical engineering, or do a dual major in Computer engineering and Electrical Engineering.
Good luck bro.

Definitely go with EE and CE dual major, if your gonna be building it yourself you'll need to know both sides, software and hardware. I'm personally going for Game Software development, but in regards to any software the same rules can be applied that you learn in any degree that involves programming. If your wanting to get into working on android you'll need C, C++ (kernel and some other aspects are in these) and Java for the UI. Also gonna need some xml, html, and it never hurts to know some lua and C# =) I here mono & .NET are coming to android too

I would agree, and a double major in C.E. and E.E. would probably be best, but be prepared. Engineering isn't easy. I just finished up a Mechanical Engineering degree, and I can't imagine doing a double major in it. Also, your school will have a lot of clubs/teams you can join that can help you network to find an "in". Our school had an aerial robotics team, robotics team, formula s.a.e., etc. A lot of big companies show up for competitions, and networking there would def help you get your foot in the door. Plus, putting this on your resume looks good as long as it's a related field. Good luck, and prepare to lose a lot of sleep.

props to you man thats pretty cool

Do a business major and hire people to build it for you. Then start your own company go public and do some inside trading
ecotox gave the answer I was going to

@OP: I thought that this would be another lame question about what to do in life, seeking guidance, etc., but I see that you have an ambition and would merely want to know how to get there. Kudos to you, my friend, and I wish you succeed in life.
xriderx66 said:
Sorry for being so off topic.
YEAHHHHHHHHHHH UT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Refer to sig. You can't go off topic. Ever.
bearsfan85 said:
Do a business major and hire people to build it for you. Then start your own company go public and do some inside trading
ecotox gave the answer I was going to
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I would have +1'ed, but looking at some of the greatest people in tech, and the richest, they started out as geeks and nerds. So, no, that doesn't work.

reach for realistic goals

[Q] Best I.T. field?

Hi, I'm coming to this forum to ask my question 1. Because I know there are a lot of tech-savvy people here and 2. Because I'm on these forums a lot.
I guess my general question is: what is the best IT field to get into now? I really like programming, but I read a couple or places that its projected to go down by 4% from now til 2018ish.
But I read elsewhere that computer engineering is growing rapidly.
I'm 19 years old now, about to start college soon and want to pick a good field in. Something that can defenitely pay good as well.
And I know there's a lot of cross knowledge about IT.
But what's the best IT field tp get into?
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Bump
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I am a Network Engineer. I think it is a pretty good field, if you don't mind the late nights, and other things. The Networks are the furthest behind right now, and we need competent Engineers to build and run them.

i agree with above..

I agree, however getting companies to spend money on talent and equipment is hard. Its like years ago before companies spent on backups. They wont spend till it bites them.

troubleshot said:
I agree, however getting companies to spend money on talent and equipment is hard. Its like years ago before companies spent on backups. They wont spend till it bites them.
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Correct. Working for a Vendor, I see this all the time. It is hard to tell a company that they need new switches every 5 years, especially in this economic time.
The big pusher will be IPv6. That is forcing a lot of companies to look at their infrastructure today. They have this feeling they will be left behind if they aren't IPv6 ready by the end of this year. At least on my view of things - that is the only reason Enterprise side businesses are buying new Routers/Switches.

Enraged21 said:
Hi, I'm coming to this forum to ask my question 1. Because I know there are a lot of tech-savvy people here and 2. Because I'm on these forums a lot.
I guess my general question is: what is the best IT field to get into now? I really like programming, but I read a couple or places that its projected to go down by 4% from now til 2018ish.
But I read elsewhere that computer engineering is growing rapidly.
I'm 19 years old now, about to start college soon and want to pick a good field in. Something that can defenitely pay good as well.
And I know there's a lot of cross knowledge about IT.
But what's the best IT field tp get into?
Sent from my PG06100 using XDA App
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The problem with Network Engineering is there is no degree for it. It is a lot of self knowledge and self learning.
Take your Juniper Certifications or Cisco Certifications. Buy books on BGP, OSPF, IS-IS, IPv6, etc.....
Download software to run labs at your house....build a cheap Cisco lab as well.
GNS3 is a good Cisco network simulator.

I know this isn't the advice you're looking for - but I'm going to give you the advice I wish somebody gave me when I was 18.
Screw the market predictions, screw the salary ceilings, screw the skill demand. Find something you really dig and the rest is going to fall into place.
I spent 7 years as a software developer. I got paid far more than I was probably worth, had loads of perks, and life was good. Problem was I didn't get any satisfaction out of writing code anymore (not sure that I ever really did). It took me a long time to figure out, but in the end you're going to spend 40 hours (or often 60 in tech careers) a week doing something for the rest of your working life. Your quality of life is going to improved much, much more by genuinely enjoying those 40-60 hours each week than it will by bringing home 90K/yr. Believe me.
At 29 I took about a $25K/yr pay cut and "started over" as a web/ui designer in a new company. It's one of the best choices I'd ever made - I just wish I'd made it when I was much younger. My life would have been much easier.

Isn't a degree worth more than a certificate?
I'd rather spend more time in school getting a degree rather than doing it quick and getting a certificate.
MickMcGeough said:
I know this isn't the advice you're looking for - but I'm going to give you the advice I wish somebody gave me when I was 18.
Screw the market predictions, screw the salary ceilings, screw the skill demand. Find something you really dig and the rest is going to fall into place.
I spent 7 years as a software developer. I got paid far more than I was probably worth, had loads of perks, and life was good. Problem was I didn't get any satisfaction out of writing code anymore (not sure that I ever really did). It took me a long time to figure out, but in the end you're going to spend 40 hours (or often 60 in tech careers) a week doing something for the rest of your working life. Your quality of life is going to improved much, much more by genuinely enjoying those 40-60 hours each week than it will by bringing home 90K/yr. Believe me.
At 29 I took about a $25K/yr pay cut and "started over" as a web/ui designer in a new company. It's one of the best choices I'd ever made - I just wish I'd made it when I was much younger. My life would have been much easier.
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I know, people are always telling me that. And I'm always open to hearing peoples opinion. I actually would love to do a field in IT... Just don't know what exactly I want. Like I said, I like programming, computer science, etc., but there not gonna need alot of programmers in the near future. My friend is actually a network engineer and makes good money, but I know he'd rather be doing something else.
As for me, I've been doing jack **** for the last two years. I would actually love to spend 40 to 60 hours a week keeping my hands and brains busy.
So I might look into Engineering.. cause that's what it looks like its going into.
I know if it's something with tech involved, I probably won't love it, but I would like it. Better than doing anything else.
2 of the fields I'm looking into:
Computer Engineering Technology (Networking)
Computer Programming and Analysis.
your inputs?

Enraged21 said:
Isn't a degree worth more than a certificate?
I'd rather spend more time in school getting a degree rather than doing it quick and getting a certificate.
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Depends. The way I see it (being in the field) If you want to stay on the Engineering side of things and don't have an interest in being Managerial, then Certs + Time In the Field = More Money than Degree.
If you think Certs are the easy way - then you haven't taken any of the tests. If you want to get into Networking you have to have Certs. Then get a job working in a NOC, or for a smaller ISP. Then you work up.

I'm a field engineer so I go to clients' sites and support their IT/resolve their IT problems.
Being a jack of all trades really helps, and having the right mind is a godsend.
Being able to think on your feet to come up with solutions with very few resources, having high google skills also helps, and a resourceful memory for niggly little problems.
In my experience computer degrees are pointless, industry qualifications actually have value as they bring benefits to companies such as partnership programs.
Whats going to be more appealing to customers? "We have 5 engineers with degrees" or "We're a Microsoft Gold Partner" see what I mean?
The more qualifications you get the more you can ask for in salary.
Contracting is where the real money is, you can get paid stupid amounts of money for doing simple things.
I was getting £200 a day on one contract to just create new users and run reports.

so what you guys are saying is,
it's better to be certified in many fields and work my way up rather than getting a degree in a specific field?

Enraged21 said:
so what you guys are saying is,
it's better to be certified in many fields and work my way up rather than getting a degree in a specific field?
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Yes. And pick a field you enjoy too.

alright. I appreciate your advice.

When I try to pick my major in college, I'm listed 3 choices ( All Computer Engineering )
Cisco Specialization
Microsoft Specialization
Cyber Security and Digital Forensics Specialization
Out of all those three fields? which one would be the best to "specialize" in?
They also have two other fields available which are computer programming and analysis, and computer information technology. Too many people in CPA and they won't need them in the near future. CIT is too broad. And I don't really know about that.

Another approach which might be a bit different is if you can scrape up the money to go to a conference or two, that may give you some insight on the different areas of IT and may help guide you on what you may or may not like. Virtualization is huge now due to the whole "cloud computing" thing. Microsoft/Active Directory/Exchange-type environments are widely used, so any experience there should guarantee you a job and an employee in a company or a solutions architect if you can design that infrastructure... or support for that type of environment which would be a first step in that field. I always believed that if you're the type that's into programming, you'll know it early on. The hard part like others have said is choosing what sub-field you want to specialize in (or that you enjoy).
No matter where you go, things can get pretty deep. I know a few people who chose to be project managers and make a good living not knowing anything technical - just the logistics of it all.

If you are going to get into general IT - to start with stick to CSCO and MSFT.
You can't go wrong with acquiring certs from either. While it doesn't hurt to know both - at some point you will find you either like to design and support the network (CSCO). Or you like to do AD, LDAP, Server type of stuff (MSFT).
If you wanted mine on which to chose of the 3 you have, I would suggest trying to get internships at each one, to see which you like. College is expensive, and you don't want to have to go back multiple times, because the degree you got wasn't something you liked.
Take an Internship at a smaller ISP. This will give you a chance to check out both the Network (CSCO) side of things, and Systems (MSFT/Linux/BSD) side of things. Most larger companies (Fortune 500) will split it up like this anyways, as it is too much to wear both hats. So you will have your team of Network Engineer's and your team of Systems Engineers/Admins who generally all report up to a single director/vp.

Don't really have the money or the time to intern. That's why I came seeking advice.
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Two fields spring immediately to mind. Computer Forensics and Computer Security.
Both growth industries and interesting too i imagine.

I'll try to make this my last rant here.
I know you came here asking for advice - but I hope you understand that all advice is necessarily autobiographical.
A lot will disagree with me here, but degrees and certs are worth little. Good instruction is infinitely valuable, demonstrable skills are infinitely valuable, and you can get those in post-secondary schooling, but the piece of paper itself will only help you get your first job, when you have no experience, and the person hiring you is either too lazy to verify your skills, or is unable to do so.
Probably the best developer I ever hired was entirely self-taught. The worst was one of the most highly-educated individuals I'd ever interviewed.
I don't know where you got your information about the software development market drying up but I think you're making too big a deal out of it. I cannot fathom a future in which a good software developer's skills are obsolete. You'll have to switch languages/environments many times in your career, but if you dig coding, just go be the best coder you can.
I implore you, try out some different stuff in school and stick to whatever it is that gets your motor going. Don't worry about a 4% market downturn or what industries might grow. Nobody can predict more than 5-10 years away, and you're going to be doing whatever it is you choose for 30-40 years.

[Q] Self taught or not?

Just wondering how all you experienced developers on here started out. I know you have probably been asked many times before but I am genuinely interested.
I am by no means any sort of developer. I first came to this site about two years ago when I first learned of rooting. Prior to that I had no knowledge whatsoever of developing or programming.
However I cant keep off here. Is it something that can be self taught. I would really love to delve into this so that I can start to have a little input into what goes on here and even if its just testing at least I could maybe be of help to someone. I have picked up little bits on how things work but my main question is where would be a good place to start self teaching??? It is becoming somewhat of an interest for me.
Any pointers would be hugely appreciated.
Thanks

If it's apps your interested in then AdamOutler has recently done a great video/article combo which would get you started. Check the portal / youtube channel....
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....

I suppose anything really just to get a basic understanding to start with. I would love eventually to be able to create/modify custom roms ect, but yeah thanks for the pointer.

hammoliam said:
I suppose anything really just to get a basic understanding to start with. I would love eventually to be able to create/modify custom roms ect, but yeah thanks for the pointer.
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Well for roms, check if your device is supported by Dsixdas kitchen, if so that's a great place to start tinkering...
If you want to really start making changes to things though your going to need to learn to code to some extent...
Read and search, read and search...
Good luck
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....

If you want a great beginning developer environment, wp7 is the easiest and most user friendly one to dive into.

I taught myself python with old boxed up books from the back rooms of my high school library. Didn't have a computer and did all my work on notebook paper. My first language. So, yeah, you can teach yourself anything.
I'm reading this right now.
http://www.amazon.com/Communications-Electronic-Warfare-Adrian-Graham/dp/0470688718
Has tons of practical applications.
Might get a kick out of what I'm reading right now:
Communications, Radar and Electronic Warfare
Frontiers in Antennas: Next Generation Design and Engineering
Advances in Cryptology 2011
Digital Forensics with Open Source Tools
Philosophy and Simulation: The Emergence of Synthetic Reason

boborone said:
I taught myself python with old boxed up books from the back rooms of my high school library. Didn't have a computer and did all my work on notebook paper. My first language. So, yeah, you can teach yourself anything.
I'm reading this right now.
http://www.amazon.com/Communications-Electronic-Warfare-Adrian-Graham/dp/0470688718
Has tons of practical applications.
Might get a kick out of what I'm reading right now:
Communications, Radar and Electronic Warfare
Frontiers in Antennas: Next Generation Design and Engineering
Advances in Cryptology 2011
Digital Forensics with Open Source Tools
Philosophy and Simulation: The Emergence of Synthetic Reason
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well i'm done with the list and ready to take over local frequencies with my own propaganda. read, play good music on pirated radio
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Nowhere near an experienced developer, but with a couple of apps and a ROM WIP, the only thing that taught me was xda-tv

Learning to me is just when somebody puts a puzzle in front of you with no clues or guidelines. But you are surrounded by 50k people that you may ask questions (xda).
I just keep trying to solve the puzzle and if I really don't get something I just ask xda.
That's just how I learn. Its how I've always learn. Just dive into it and rip it apart. Think as logically as possible and listen to some cool dub step while doing so for extra learning points.
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