i have a question about my "H". I do know that the H stands for HSPA which means im supposed to get faster speeds than 3G? or will i continue to get same speeds till my towers in my area are upgraded? im a little confused about all this! thanks in advance!
When there's a data load it will switch from umts 3g to hsdpa. For some reason it wont stay on hsdpa permanently. I wonder it there's a build.prop mod that can keep u on hsdpa instead of having the phone juggle hsdpa and umts.
Btw I'm new to android and could be wrong. Hopefully others chime in.
Having HSDPA constantly on will drain the hell out of your battery. I don't think you'd want that.
To the OP - H will show on custom ROMs only. Any time you're getting speeds above 400kbps - it's HSDPA kicking in. Search will answer the rest of your questions or new ones that you might have.
Jack_R1 said:
Having HSDPA constantly on will drain the hell out of your battery. I don't think you'd want that.
To the OP - H will show on custom ROMs only. Any time you're getting speeds above 400kbps - it's HSDPA kicking in. Search will answer the rest of your questions or new ones that you might have.
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Nonsense, no matter what data type it requires active data transferring to be using the battery. A completely idle connection uses the same power on E, 3G, or H.
khaytsus said:
Nonsense, no matter what data type it requires active data transferring to be using the battery. A completely idle connection uses the same power on E, 3G, or H.
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Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I would guess that the answer is no. People should keep their mouth shut when they have no idea.
Maybe you don't know that there is no "idle" for radio connection? There's always data transfer once in X time, several times a second at least, and the power required by that transfer is directly proportional to the required transmitter power (higher than the transmitter power). HSDPA creates another active channel using the UMTS band, with different modulation and encoding, and its receiver needs to work constantly to keep this channel alive (and the same goes for HSUPA):
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-hsdpa.htm
And yes, keeping active data connection draws power. Both on GSM, when data connectivity is present in a form of GPRS or EDGE (again, additional tx/rx and additional power used), and on UMTS (but since UMTS - WCDMA - includes data, this happens only when HSDPA receiver / HSUPA transmitters are activated).
Ah, and a subset of what I wrote above is "probably" the reason behind much higher standby times on EDGE. It just doesn't use the same amount of power when connected with GSM+EDGE as UMTS alone.
Here, back in 2005:
"New HSDPA handsets, according to Lucent's Leonard, will need to manage higher power consumption and heat dissipation requirements in addition to integrating new algorithms in their chipsets."
http://features.techworld.com/mobile-wireless/1212/hsdpa-will-make-3g-start-to-deliver/
That's true. Battery drain will be a problem..... I wonder if there's a way to force hsdpa to switch from umts quicker
Jack_R1 said:
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I would guess that the answer is no. People should keep their mouth shut when they have no idea.
Maybe you don't know that there is no "idle" for radio connection? There's always data transfer once in X time, several times a second at least, and the power required by that transfer is directly proportional to the required transmitter power (higher than the transmitter power). HSDPA creates another active channel using the UMTS band, with different modulation and encoding, and its receiver needs to work constantly to keep this channel alive (and the same goes for HSUPA):
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-hsdpa.htm
And yes, keeping active data connection draws power. Both on GSM, when data connectivity is present in a form of GPRS or EDGE (again, additional tx/rx and additional power used), and on UMTS (but since UMTS - WCDMA - includes data, this happens only when HSDPA receiver / HSUPA transmitters are activated).
Ah, and a subset of what I wrote above is "probably" the reason behind much higher standby times on EDGE. It just doesn't use the same amount of power when connected with GSM+EDGE as UMTS alone.
Here, back in 2005:
"New HSDPA handsets, according to Lucent's Leonard, will need to manage higher power consumption and heat dissipation requirements in addition to integrating new algorithms in their chipsets."
http://features.techworld.com/mobile-wireless/1212/hsdpa-will-make-3g-start-to-deliver/
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I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't checked it myself. But sure, feel free to do it yourself too. Disable all stuff using network, set it on Edge, leave the phone alone for a few hours and monitor the battery usage. Repeat for 3G, HSPA.
I haven't done it on my Nexus One but I did it on my Tilt 2 and my Tilt and in both cases the battery usage for Edge vs HSPA was the same idle. Only when actively transferring was the power usage different. And idle in this context = not actively using the data connection. What the radio itself is doing to maintain state I don't care about.
Note I was not measuring in mAh resolution, only observation of battery charge and average consumption. I didn't have a power supply and monitoring the exact power used, etc. Only observation. IE: Maybe it's 10-15mAh higher on H vs EDGE, that would be well into the margin of error in my observations.
First, you couldn't measure it for HSxPA, because you can't connect it and leave it connected, unless you're pinging once a couple of seconds - and that would affect the results too much to neglect. The only things that can be measured are idle consumption of GSM/EDGE and UMTS - but again, they're measured and given as the spec of the phone, why would you think that phone manufacturers would write them differently if they were equal?
The difference between GSM and UMTS is around 20% tops, and mostly less, around 10%. You can't measure this difference accurately through short amounts of time, you need statistics. And again, you can't compare either to HSxPA because for this you'd need SW to make HSxPA stay constantly on for practical measurement, or figures from manufacturers citing HSxPA transmitter and receiver power consumption in working mode. If I understand the protocol correctly - HSxPA doesn't allow idle, it's just not built for it, about the same way as PCIe doesn't allow idle - to maintain the link, data needs to be streamed constantly, even if there is no data - "idle data" is streamed, when it shuts down - there is no link anymore.
Jack_R1 said:
Having HSDPA constantly on will drain the hell out of your battery. I don't think you'd want that.
To the OP - H will show on custom ROMs only. Any time you're getting speeds above 400kbps - it's HSDPA kicking in. Search will answer the rest of your questions or new ones that you might have.
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Jack_R1 said:
First, you couldn't measure it for HSxPA, because you can't connect it and leave it connected, unless you're pinging once a couple of seconds - and that would affect the results too much to neglect. The only things that can be measured are idle consumption of GSM/EDGE and UMTS - but again, they're measured and given as the spec of the phone, why would you think that phone manufacturers would write them differently if they were equal?
The difference between GSM and UMTS is around 20% tops, and mostly less, around 10%. You can't measure this difference accurately through short amounts of time, you need statistics. And again, you can't compare either to HSxPA because for this you'd need SW to make HSxPA stay constantly on for practical measurement, or figures from manufacturers citing HSxPA transmitter and receiver power consumption in working mode. If I understand the protocol correctly - HSxPA doesn't allow idle, it's just not built for it, about the same way as PCIe doesn't allow idle - to maintain the link, data needs to be streamed constantly, even if there is no data - "idle data" is streamed, when it shuts down - there is no link anymore.
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Therefore, your original argument is self-invalidated. Thanks for tidying that up.
khaytsus said:
Therefore, your original argument is self-invalidated. Thanks for tidying that up.
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My original argument is that keeping HSDPA constantly on will drain the hell out of the battery. I don't see, how by comparing UMTS and GSM standby times you understand anything about HSDPA that DOESN'T HAVE STANDBY. And I guess you don't know enough about high speed protocols to understand anything I wrote after that, so I'll just leave it at that. If you don't want to understand - I can't make you.
Related
Hi
HTC quote the following standby times for the Kaiser:
Up to 350 hours for UMTS
Up to 365 hours for GSM
What seems a common complaint (not just for Kaiser) is that no one ever seems to get near these sorts of standby times.
I was thinking that the majority of us will have band selection as 'Auto' so the phone will use both 2G or 3G depending on the reception, and automatically drops back from one to the other as you move about or network conditions vary. This must mean the phone is always listening/nattering to both 2G and 3G towers in order to decide what band is the better to use.
Is this using more power as it's keeping two radio parts powered up? Worse case scenario I guess if 'yes' this could reduce standby time by around half the quoted figures.
Just wondered if anyone knew the impact of Auto band selection on battery usage.
Regards
Phil
I was wondering why someone would want to be connected to 3G all the time for talking. I could only guess that it is somewhat better quality. In my case I don't see it that much. I do however know that it waistes about double the battery using 3G all the time. If I am not using data is there any real advantages of it? and what if I am talking to someone who does not have a 3G phone.
Thank you,
Hmm, of course I could be wrong (but I doubt it), Data and voice are 2 different things. 3G is data, voice is voice.
Thats what I was thinking, but I dont understand why it would be connected via 3G all the time if im not even using the data. and 3G and EDGE connections seems to have different signal strengths. If it's only for data I guess I will leave 3G off all the time.
3G signal is emitted on a different frequency than GSM/Edge signal - it does drain the battery faster and is pretty useless if you are in a well covered GSM area and only using voice (phone) function. The quality gain isn't significant enough overall to make it worth battery drainage on a device like the Kaiser/Tilt.
The advantage of 3G is its data stream but it's also good with voice for hard to reach areas only reached by 3G signals - those are rare nowadays, especially in the US, but in some cities with landscape blocked coverage (like in some skyscrapers in Manhattan for example) you might not pick any GSM network at your work desk but might pick up 3G - in such places, using "bandswitch" regularly makes sense.
Lastly, 3G signal is slowly replacing GSM/CDMA (2G) as the broadcasting standard so I wouldn't be surprised that in the next 5 years, more and more GSM phone operators will stop mantaining there GSM frequency towers in favor of 3G.
Thanks jonas that's the answer I was looking for. I will use edge untill my signal gets low.
Jonasteddybear said:
Lastly, 3G signal is slowly replacing GSM/CDMA (2G) as the broadcasting standard so I wouldn't be surprised that in the next 5 years, more and more GSM phone operators will stop mantaining there GSM frequency towers in favor of 3G.
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Interesting, since that means AT&T has a lot of work ahead of them and better get their butts in gear rolling out 3G. I live in the whatever-it-is, 90%, of the network area that does NOT have 3G.
Or I suppose I could be an optimist about what you say, and think that maybe it means AT&T really will be accelerating the rollout of 3G. That would be nice given the snail's pace of 3G expansion in the past couple of years.
Over in the UK 3G is the standard 2G is still available but the telecommunications offcom have required all UK operators to offer a minimum of 90% 3G coverage by 2010
I've always heard that Voice on 3G uses less power on standby and when talking, but I might be remembering it wrong.
Data on 3G uses significantly more juice than EDGE does (over double in my experience!) but I don't think you'll see a significant difference without data usage on 3G vs GSM but I could certainly be wrong.
I always have FlexMail and IM+ running, I haven't compared battery usage without them yet.
One big advantage that 3G has over EDGE is you can do voice and data at the same time. I've heard varying stories about some phones can do it on EDGE and some can't, but I know on my Tilt my connections die when I'm on a voice call and reconnect after but does not on 3G.
The biggest advantage of 3g besides the penetration is that you can talk and maintain a data connection. Edge gives you one or the other at a time--data or talk.
Is there a way to force HSDPA? I have it enabled (using advance config) & rarely does it connect to it, uses Edge majority of the time.
if the place you are present have poor hsdpa support it
roam to other network types
would you rather have it loose connection ?
+1 on what Rudegar sad, also its BTS who decide for you when HSDPA should kick in. If you are in area you will recieve.
So theres no way to force the connection?
I had three bars earlier when connection & worked awsome, now Im on edge & fights to get 10kbps down. Ive noticed this in the cities Im in often like Roanoke,VA, Atlanta, Montgomery,AL, Virginia Beach, Detroit.
cptnslow said:
So theres no way to force the connection?
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It's just like if you have a 56 kbps modem - remember those antiques from only 10 years ago - there's no way to force a higher connection speed without unreliability and connection drops coming into the equation. Maybe it's time to trial another network (perhaps with a pay as you go sim) and see how their offerings compare.
Where in Va Beach? I live in Va Beach and get HSDPA pretty much everywhere i go.
ProudPop83 said:
Where in Va Beach? I live in Va Beach and get HSDPA pretty much everywhere i go.
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Like I stated above its the base station who opens up for you when you download or stream. You are not in HSDPA constantly as it does not enable until you do the above.
raiisak said:
Like I stated above its the base station who opens up for you when you download or stream. You are not in HSDPA constantly as it does not enable until you do the above.
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]I think that'll be very network provider dependent because where I live its always HSDPA irrespective of whether a data connection is present. Depending where I travel to, I have had cases where the connection drops to 3G but then as soon as I initiate a data connection it jumps up to H and I've had further cases where it's E or G and a data connection makes no difference.
Flying Kiwi said:
]I think that'll be very network provider dependent because where I live its always HSDPA irrespective of whether a data connection is present. Depending where I travel to, I have had cases where the connection drops to 3G but then as soon as I initiate a data connection it jumps up to H and I've had further cases where it's E or G and a data connection makes no difference.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSDPA
Fast packet scheduling
The HS-DSCH downlink channel is shared between users using channel-dependent scheduling to make the best use of available radio conditions. Each user device periodically transmits an indication of the downlink signal quality, as often as 500 times per second. Using this information from all devices, the base station decides which users will be sent data on the next 2 ms frame and how much data should be sent for each user. More data can be sent to users which report high downlink signal quality.
The amount of the channelisation code tree, and thus network bandwidth, allocated to HSDPA users is determined by the network. The allocation is "semi-static" in that it can be modified while the network is operating, but not on a frame-by-frame basis. This allocation represents a trade-off between bandwidth allocated for HSDPA users, versus that for voice and non-HSDPA data users. The allocation is in units of channelisation codes for Spreading Factor 16, of which 16 exist and up to 15 can be allocated to HSDPA. When the base station decides which users will receive data on the next frame, it also decides which channelisation codes will be used for each user. This information is sent to the user devices over one or more HSDPA "scheduling channels"; these channels are not part of the HSDPA allocation previously mentioned, but are allocated separately. Thus, for a given 2 ms frame, data may be sent to a number of users simultaneously, using different channelisation codes. The maximum number of users to receive data on a given 2 ms frame is determined by the number of allocated channelisation codes. By contrast, in CDMA2000 1xEV-DO, data is sent to only one user at a time.
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raiisak said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSDPA
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I was actually looking at that page a few days ago with regards to speeds but it doesn't change the fact that in some locations my phone shows the H icon when there isn't even a hint of a data connection present and no voice call taking place at the time either. Under such circumstances, it could have quite easily dropped back to a 3G icon until HSDPA is needed but it nearly always doesn't. The only place I've found it does work like this, interestingly enough, is when I'm going past the O2 UK HQ beside Slough train station where it will drop back to 3 G unless a data connection is in place.
When I was using Vodafone UK, this did not happen in the same loacation (never tested for this near their HQ out at Newbury) but again I experienced many cases where the H icon was shown on the phone but not needed. Thats why I've mentioned it's network dependant. I take your point that the specs dictate it should work otherwise but in my case thats not played out to be how it's gone.
If you want I can make your icon show a Q or Z for that matter, 3G as ONE a connection is a misleading term as it describes many technologies. Normal HSDPA suppose to show H when used and 3G idling. Remember the 6.1 ROM`s who displayed H all the time HSDPA or not? If you read up on wiki you will understand what I sad about HSDPA in earlier post. You cant draw conclusions based on what icon your phone is showing as the HSDPA technology will work as it always has.
So as long you do not stream/call of use for HSDPA you will not stay in it. So if you going to force it to stay in HSDPA you need to constant stream, an idle HSDPA connection swich over to 3g and back once called upon. So correct me if I am wrong here ... And I preferred documented. The only thing that is provider dependent here are if they support it and the coverage of it. The technology which I was talking about has nothing to do whit just that.
Flying Kiwi said:
I was actually looking at that page a few days ago with regards to speeds but it doesn't change the fact that in some locations my phone shows the H icon when there isn't even a hint of a data connection present and no voice call taking place at the time either. Under such circumstances, it could have quite easily dropped back to a 3G icon until HSDPA is needed but it nearly always doesn't. The only place I've found it does work like this, interestingly enough, is when I'm going past the O2 UK HQ beside Slough train station where it will drop back to 3 G unless a data connection is in place.
When I was using Vodafone UK, this did not happen in the same loacation (never tested for this near their HQ out at Newbury) but again I experienced many cases where the H icon was shown on the phone but not needed. Thats why I've mentioned it's network dependant. I take your point that the specs dictate it should work otherwise but in my case thats not played out to be how it's gone.
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raiisak said:
You cant draw conclusions based on what icon your phone is showing as the HSDPA technology will work as it always has.
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Why would my phone lie to me like that given (in the same locations) it reliably and correctly detects that it is in 3G and then when a data connection is initiated bumps up to H. There is no doubt to me that it is reliably detecting the connection type as it does this every time I travel through Slough on the train if I initiate a data connection. Similarly it seems as if the H, 3G, G and even E, do correctly display under the right circumstances. Again, I've no dobt about the HSDPA specs and how it should work, I'm just saying in reality with my HTC Official ROM'd phone (both using my current setup and previously WM 6.1), it's behaved that way in practice.
I think the OP wants the same sort of performance and indications from his phone that I'm getting from mine and I know no way to 'force' an HSDPA connection and get appropriate speeds if the network infrastructure and signal strenth aren't up to the task. On the other hand there maybe another network that operates much better in a given area which will provide whats required and there's little cost in doing some 'trialling' of competing networks in the areas involved.
Raiisak said:
You cant draw conclusions based on what icon your phone is showing as the HSDPA technology will work as it always has.
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Flying Kiwi said:
Why would my phone lie to me like that given.........
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Listen mate, I dont know why you want to argue or what you want to argue about???? Twisting and turning my answers are not going to do the trick here, OP asked about forcing he`s device in HSDPA, I answered that it would not work cause HSDPA does not work like that. Then you come in and start talking about something completely else and nagging on my answer?? I do not care what your phone shows and how it work in local area`s nearby you as it has nothing whit my answer or on topic IMO to do.
Raiisak said:
Like I stated above its the base station who opens up for you when you download or stream. You are not in HSDPA constantly as it does not enable until you do the above.
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Flying Kiwi said:
]I think that'll be very network provider dependent because where I live its always HSDPA irrespective of whether a data connection is present. Depending where I travel to, I have had cases where the connection drops to 3G but then as soon as I initiate a data connection it jumps up to H and I've had further cases where it's E or G and a data connection makes no difference.
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This comment triggered it all, if I had knew that you would not be interested in my answers on your comment I would not have taken the time to explain about HSDPA.
Flying Kiwi said:
I know no way to 'force' an HSDPA connection
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Then what do you argue about here? I am not going to comment this further as what ever I say does not get to you and there is nothing to more discuss.
Nothing personal
raiisak said:
Listen mate, I dont know why you want to argue or what you want to argue about???? Twisting and turning my answers are not going to do the trick here, OP asked about forcing he`s device in HSDPA, I answered that it would not work cause HSDPA does not work like that.
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There's no need to bring out the 'listen mate' with multiple questionmarks on the end. I do listen where I think something is clear and correct. If I think there's more to an issue, I chime in. In response to your link to that wikipedia page which outlines how it should work (in an ideal world), I'm telling you that some networks do not appear to implement things according to the official specs so it won't necessarily behave that way. My examples based from usage/observations in many different locations around the UK prove that point and as I mentioned that was also the case when I was with Vodafone here so that's all, no more, no less and no intention to offend.
Then you come in and start talking about something completely else and nagging on my answer?? I do not care what your phone shows and how it work in local area`s nearby you as it has nothing whit my answer or on topic IMO to do.
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There's those multiple questionmarks again, calm down, I'm not having a go at you. I think it's best for the OP to make that determination whether my comments are relevant as we both replied in order to try and help that person out. You with some might say the 'official' line and me with the 'in practice' line. In the end we agree the answer as to what can be done to force HSDPA is the same ie nothing. I added the possibility that if better performance is saught, a network change may provide this.
This comment triggered it all, if I had knew that you would not be interested in my answers on your comment I would not have taken the time to explain about HSDPA.
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I was interested all right, I felt your original answer and the subsequent wikipedia link didn't paint the whole picture so that's why I came in. I trust that you will eventually understand and accept that. Remember, I'm not having a go at you
Ive read several things on battery consumption and one the things is being in a bad service area. I am currently not in a bad service area (atleast I don't think) but my phone keeps swtiching from 3g to H and then H to 3g. Is this a problem if so what can I do to fix?
If I look at phone info whilst on 3G, I notice its switching between UMTS and HSPDA. Is the same thing? I also believe that battery life isn't as good as others report. Could this be why?
Your phone's connection idles at 3G and when you make a request, it switches to HSDPA and then retrieves information. It is normal to constantly see it switch between the two if you're using your data.
This is how I always understood it and am pretty confident this is what you are seeing.
cpm said:
If I look at phone info whilst on 3G, I notice its switching between UMTS and HSPDA. Is the same thing? I also believe that battery life isn't as good as others report. Could this be why?
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I think the phone idles on 3g but when ya use data say in browser it'll kick up to H...
I think idling down to 3g saves power. But I don't like the 1 or 2 seconds at first when ya do data it has to switch to h taking the couple seconds. Now if ya instantly go to another page Its faster cause its on h. But if I wait lime 5 seconds it'll drop back to 3g so next page I go to it'll need to bump to h again...
Annoying but whatever
well I use juice defendor so when it snaps on when I take it out of sleep it snaps to 3g and then to H. So I'll pay closer attention to see when the phone takes it to 3g vs when it accesses the H.
My carrier had some little problems during the past weeks, aparently they were working on something. I sometimes, for short periods, did not have data connection or no servic at all. Now the problems are gone and a speedtest today showed that at my home, the download speed went from an average 1 Mbit to over 5 Mbit!
However, the H symbol won't go away anymore! It used to switch to 3g when not data was transferred. I assume that this will influence battery life.
Is there anything I should be worried?
From what I recall, H is faster than 3g, as long as your in a good signal area, the H will always be visable, it will only drop down to 3g if the area your in has no H signal... and if there is no 3g it will drop to a 2g signal... simples, having the H does not meen that data is being transfered!
I am aware of the different speed levels, what I experience now is that the H symbol stays all the time, whereas it used to change to 3g when idling even in areas with very good reception...
GMH24 said:
I am aware of the different speed levels, what I experience now is that the H symbol stays all the time, whereas it used to change to 3g when idling even in areas with very good reception...
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Wait, I don't get what you're saying. Let me clear it up:
Very good reception = H
Not so good reception = 3G
You want to see H (means HSDPA which is a a type of 3G data, but it's faster).
MrSimtang said:
Let me clear it up
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Okay, I'll try that too!
I live in an area with very good reception and therefore the phone used to switch from 3g to H whenever data was transfered and back . Now, however, it stays on H all the time and does not switch back to 3g when no traffic occurs.
It is just a change in the pattern my phone behaves so I wanted to get some info on that...
Hi, it's your phone doing what it should by seeking the best signal.
H refers to HSDPA which is based on UMTS (3G). Consider it a 'turbo' version of 3G. It's sometimes also referred to as 3G+ because it's faster then 3G but not really 4G technology. The tower in your area most likely got upgraded to HSDPA that's why you don't see the 3G icon anymore.
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Not correct, he mentioned that his phone was using H on demand before, so the capability was there already.
The problem is that H mode uses more battery than 3G, which is why it normally only switches to H during data transfers instead of continously being on.
Possibly your provider made a change which forces your phone to stay in H mode. On hardcores homepage (see speedmod kernel thread) he describes a method to manually deactivate H mode if you want to play with it.
Hope that helps.
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seems to be the explanation... Suddenly I have ~6 Mbit, so almost unsurprisingly there had to be a catch
as for disabling H, it would be permanently so not quite an option. I guess, I'll have to live with it but nevertheless I'll call customer support..
Hspa and 3g are actually different technologies, but can be used on the same site and freq. If you have noticed that your phone is nowdays all the time showing H ( hspa ) and not in 3g like before it means that your carrier has expanded their hspa features and capacity of the network on that area. Main difference between these two tech is of course the speed and how network resources are shared between the users. In 3g you have dedicated ones, but speed limited and in hspa you are sharing the resources between other ones under that cell area. hspa is good if you are near by the cell and there is not too many users from battery consumption point of aswell from througput point of view, 3g is better if you are on the cell edge due to dedicated resources reserved only for you. Main point is, battery consumption of your phone depends mainly how you use your phone ,what kind of applications you have and how often those are connecting/contacted by the network.
Browsing in 3g sucks!
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