Do it on your own Risk. it worked for me.. it may not work for you.
***Both Devices Must be rooted (Gtab and Other) Most of the Custom Roms are rooted.***
If you can see on you Android phone/Android device you can get that app onto Gtab with this few simple steps.
Let assume the device is your phone where you can see almost all the apps.
1. Have Titanium Backup (Free Or Paid) on both the device. (Phone/Gtab)
2. Download the the app you want onto your first device (Phone)
3. Backup with Titanium backup.
4. Connect phone to computer and copy files from Titanium Backup folder to desktop. (**** EACH APP WILL HAVE 3 FILES in TB mostly with something in front of the name and back of the name (app name).
For E.g (Names of the files in TB)
File 1. com.jhankis.animalsounds-5ac99359265f229c03bb8cb19c0afc71.apk
File 2. com.jhankis.animalsounds-20110401-041026.properties
File 3. com.jhankis.animalsounds-20110401-041026.tar
5. Now Connect your GTAB to computer and Copy the Files from Step 4. to GTAB Titanium Backup folder.
6. Reboot GTAB (Power Off and Power On).
7. Open Titanium Backup app
8. Click Menu (on GTAB)
9. Click on Batch
10.[Run] Restore all app's with Data.
11. Select the app u copied and Restore.** APPS ONLY NOT DATA**.
you will have those apps on you GTAB.
Hope this helps ... I did it and it worked for me with no issues. (did for my 2yr old son's fav apps)
Any questions PM me.. If this helped u. please press that thanks button.
I hope Moderator will make it sticky... If no one else posted. Cos i did not find this trick any where.
You can sync Ti Backup with Dropbox as well.
doctorisin said:
You can sync Ti Backup with Dropbox as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personally I never used bropbox.. So not sure. These steps worked for me, I'm happy.
You can use Astro App Backup and backup the apks, then plug your phone directly into your G Tab's USB and set your phone to mass storage mode. Then navigate to the phone in the file manager and install the apks you want located under the directory Astro saves backups.
Not all apps can be backed up. I've tried both Astro and Titanium to backup Need for Speed Shift and neither works.
drewden123 said:
You can use Astro App Backup and backup the apks, then plug your phone directly into your G Tab's USB and set your phone to mass storage mode. Then navigate to the phone in the file manager and install the apks you want located under the directory Astro saves backups.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was going to suggest this method, as your phone doesn't need to be rooted then.
All these ways work. I use astro to back up then put in on dropbox. Just be careful about restoring the data to your apps if you use tb. Some roms won't like that very much.
drewden123 said:
You can use Astro App Backup and backup the apks, then plug your phone directly into your G Tab's USB and set your phone to mass storage mode. Then navigate to the phone in the file manager and install the apks you want located under the directory Astro saves backups.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you mind, if i copy paste this in the Main as second option? let me know.
Thanks in advance.
Thank You, thank you. Worked like a charm to get MLB at Bat from my Nexus One to my GTab.
Deleted duplicate post.
drewden123 said:
You can use Astro App Backup and backup the apks, then plug your phone directly into your G Tab's USB and set your phone to mass storage mode. Then navigate to the phone in the file manager and install the apks you want located under the directory Astro saves backups.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tried plugging Nexus One into usb on GTab and nothing happened on either end; saw no usb connected message on N1 and nothing on Tab. Do I need special drivers on Gtab or something?
Thanks
Estrongs file manager
... is a file manager with LAN capabilities. When I'm on the couch and need to swap files between my android devices. I just upload to m PC then download to my other device. I think its relatively quick and simpler than toggling Bluetooth between devices.
And I could b wrong but I was unaware that there was anybody that has plugged there phone into their tab for a direct wired android to android communication. thought the code for this hasn't been implemented.
wheelrandolph said:
Tried plugging Nexus One into usb on GTab and nothing happened on either end; saw no usb connected message on N1 and nothing on Tab. Do I need special drivers on Gtab or something?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its better to do how I mentioned.. Phone > Computer > Gtab it wont take much time.
say thanks
Googler_1976 said:
Its better to do how I mentioned.. Phone > Computer > Gtab it wont take much time.
say thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or?
You can simply use Bluetooth File Transfer and bypass all the extra steps listed on here..
This is a device to device app, pc not necessary.
Related
I have an AT&T SGT. I've been using the beta version of VPlayer from the market. VPlayer is a great app but when I purchased it for $.99 through paypal for the unlocker, the download failed. I emailed Vplayer and they sent me an .apk file for the unlocker but I can't install it.
I've "googled" and got this.
"Download apps for Samsung Galaxy Tab from outside the Android Market
Android apps come in the form of APK files. You can use Google to find free APK files for your Galaxy Tab, then install them using the steps below.
Note: This method should probably only be used by techies or people who really know what they are doing. Installing APK files from some sites can compromise the security of your device.
1. Open Settings.
2. Select Applications.
3. Check Unknown sources to enable app installs from outside of the Android Market.
4. Open Android Market and download and install Astro File Manager.
5. If you used your computer to download the APK file, mount the Galaxy Tab to your computer and copy the APK file to the device. If you used the Browser on the Galaxy Tab, the file should be saved to the device.
6. Open Astro File Manager.
7. Navigate to the APK file location. Tap it and select Open App Manager.
8. Tap Install.
9. Tap Install again"
But my problem is that I cannot comply with step 3. It doesn't give me that option.
I've copied the apk file to my sdcard and installed Easy Installer App from the market to help install it. The Easy Installer App sees the apk file but when I click to install it, it shows:
" FOR SECURITY, YOUR PHONE IS SET TO BLOCK INSTALLATION OF APPLICATIONS NOT OBTAINED FROM ANDROID MARKET."
It give me the option to click the setting button but I can't find the menu to allow installation of non-market apk files.
Thanks for the help.
I don't have the link handy but search SuperOneClickv1.5.5-ShortFuse either in here or Google. Once you've downloaded the file and extract it, click the SuperOneClick.exe file and finally click allow non market apps. I highly suggest rooting your phone first to make it work. I'm sure there's an easier way but since no one has replied to you yet, I'm hoping this could get you started.
--
The above was written as part of an attempt to waste time using a Galaxy Tab,
Rush exMachina
I've installed superoneclick on my windows 7 laptop. THe program runs but when I click allow non-market apps it freezes when it's "waiting for device".
My galaxy tab is already rooted via z4root. I've also unrooted it and trying to root it through superoneclick but it still has the same freezing problem and I have to force to close.
make sure your usb connection is set to debugging then run it again. see if that works.
--
The above was written as part of an attempt to waste time using a Galaxy Tab,
Rush exMachina
Thanks for the quick reply rush_exmachina. I've tried the debugging mode already. I also tried: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=803682
"If you're having issues with "wait for device" or if RATC is looping, try this
Unplug your USB Cable
Go to Settings > Applications > Development
Uncheck USB Debugging
Plug in your USB Cable
Unplug your USB Cable
Check USB Debugging
Plug in your USB Cable"
Still no success. I've searched the forums a bit, some SGT owners were successfull with superoneclick and some were not.
no prob. I'm fairly new to the android world myself. I've exhausted everything I know on top of my head but I'll search the forums with you and post whatever I could find here.
Sounds like you may not have the correct USB drivers installed. To test this open a command prompt on your windows computer. Navigate to the same directory you have SuperOneclick installed. In that directory you will see an executable named adb.exe In the command prompt, type adb devices. It should return with a serial number. If not, it can not communicate with your tab. In this case you will need to install the correct Samsung drivers for it to work. Also, as already mentioned, make sure USB Debugging is turned on.
First my english no too good, sorry if don't understand me,i well try,i had this same problem really I could not even root using z4 root since it's not on market no more, well I rooted using superonclick,i did successfully, still my problem about installing apps out of the market....well I did click the install non market apps, and have ther same errors like you then I realized I need give superuser permission so my advice is make sure you give SU permission(this is on your tab, I'm assuming us rooted with su installed) I hope you understood (i said for my english) if not I'm sure somebody here can explain better
Sent from my SGH-I987 using XDA App
Thanks for the reply guys. I will try the command promp method when I get home from work. See if I can get somewhere with that.
As far as permissions I have my SGT rooted via z4root. I went to the superuser app to give permissions...but I don't know enough to do anything with it. I tried adding apps to set permissions but I could not choose anything.
I installed ASTRO app... It looked promising but at the and my SGT still says it's setup to blocking non-market apps. To me that means there should be a setup menu to unblock it.
Thanks again for the help.
Sent from my SGH-I987 using XDA App
GiggleGut said:
To me that means there should be a setup menu to unblock it.
Thanks again for the help.
Sent from my SGH-I987 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not on the AT&T version as they specifically block that out. The only method to add it is either via SuperOneClick or modifying the settings file directly. SuperOneClick is the easiest method though as editing the file requires Root Explorer and potential for messing something else up in the file.
FINALLY SUCCESSFULL!! I downloaded and installed my SGT drivers from here.http://samsung-phones-apps.com/samsung-galaxy-tab-usb-driver.html
I also found http://www.androidcentral.com/sideload-android-apps-all-you-want-sideload-wonder-machine
I downloaded from both links and followed the directions and it worked like a champ.
Also make sure your SGT is rooted and USB Debugging is enabled like the guys above are saying.
Thanks Rush_exMachina, cbb77 and denpad2010 for your help.
so is this the only way to accomplish this? i'm trying to install non market apps on my att tab. this way works but it is such a hassle
Setting - Security
1. Open Settings.
2. Select Applications. Select Security instead of Application
3. Check Unknown sources to enable app installs from outside of the Android Market.
I've given up trying to get full access to the Market. But I was able to find some of the apks on my Droid and was able to bring some of them over using a usb thumb drive. However, not all the apps I had downloaded to my Droid was visible. My question is do some apps delete their apks when done installing? I did have some that gave me a parse error when trying to install them on my tablet. Is there a hidden directory where I can find all the apks of the apps I've downloaded? e.g xplane, rush hour to name a few? Thanks. Or... is there a way to download the apk from Market to my PC directly? I'd be so happy if I could just get full access to google market!
Reggie777 said:
I've given up trying to get full access to the Market. But I was able to find some of the apks on my Droid and was able to bring some of them over using a usb thumb drive. However, not all the apps I had downloaded to my Droid was visible. My question is do some apps delete their apks when done installing? I did have some that gave me a parse error when trying to install them on my tablet. Is there a hidden directory where I can find all the apks of the apps I've downloaded? e.g xplane, rush hour to name a few? Thanks. Or... is there a way to download the apk from Market to my PC directly? I'd be so happy if I could just get full access to google market!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The apks are usually in your data/apps or data/apps-private. You should be able to get to these directories using RootExplorer on your phone if its rooted. Then get yourself a free Dropbox account which allows you to transfer files to any device you installed Dropbox on.
Look in these two locations. In the second one (/mnt/asec) you'll see the folder name of the app and inside that folder is the pkg.apk so you'll probably want to rename after you move it.
/data/app
and
/mnt/asec/(name of app)
Have you tried these methods yet?
Reggie777 said:
I've given up trying to get full access to the Market. But I was able to find some of the apks on my Droid and was able to bring some of them over using a usb thumb drive. However, not all the apps I had downloaded to my Droid was visible. My question is do some apps delete their apks when done installing? I did have some that gave me a parse error when trying to install them on my tablet. Is there a hidden directory where I can find all the apks of the apps I've downloaded? e.g xplane, rush hour to name a few? Thanks. Or... is there a way to download the apk from Market to my PC directly? I'd be so happy if I could just get full access to google market!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bluetooth File Transfer might help.
I put this link up a few days ago because I had the same problem.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=930036
Also, This video really worked for me with getting full market (roughly 98.9% really)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l-nySibzeA&feature=related
Reggie 777, thanks for asking this question. I've been trying to figure out the same thing and asked about it in another thread but didn't get a clear answer.
So, to the experts: do you have to be rooted to do this? I've looked in both of the locations that tcrews mentioned and don't see much, if anything. I'm using Astro FileManager, if that helps.
Thanks
wordweaver27 said:
Reggie 777, thanks for asking this question. I've been trying to figure out the same thing and asked about it in another thread but didn't get a clear answer.
So, to the experts: do you have to be rooted to do this? I've looked in both of the locations that tcrews mentioned and don't see much, if anything. I'm using Astro FileManager, if that helps.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Astro doesn't show the files in /data and you'll need to be rooted and use something like Root Explorer. I just tried Astro and once I go in to /data I see nothing (and my phone is rooted). Using Root Explorer I see all the folders under /data and go into the folder app. I see my apps installed internally there and in /mnt/asec I see my apps installed to SDcard there.
wordweaver27 said:
Reggie 777, thanks for asking this question. I've been trying to figure out the same thing and asked about it in another thread but didn't get a clear answer.
So, to the experts: do you have to be rooted to do this? I've looked in both of the locations that tcrews mentioned and don't see much, if anything. I'm using Astro FileManager, if that helps.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No root neccessary to use Bluetooth File Transfer method.
I can only guess you need root for the method on the video because you do need to have an OS with GAPPS and Android market installed.
Root is needed to use Root explorer methed.
The Z4root1.2.2 app is a good tool to root without unlocking the bootloader and you can still keep your stock OS. However I'm assuming GAPPS may not work correctly with the stock TAPNTAP OS so getting full Google Android market with that OS is prolly not going to happen.
Thanks to everyone for the help. I am processing and digesting the info and playing around with the suggestions.
Thanks to sjmoreno for telling me where the apps are. And also tcrews. I would never have thought of looking in /mnt/sec. I was actually able to find the apks I was looking for... xplane. et al. Now I'm fiddling with the bluetooth transfer. Got the phone and tablet paired... connection is not working yet. But I'm still trying.
Thanks too to tekrhino for the bluetooth suggestion. Got the transfer program for my Droid. I'm learning how to use it. Seems easy to set up, but won't actually send anything... Still exploring it.
The video on the Market fix doesn't work for me because no matter what I do, Market does not show up in the running apps section of settings. It doesn't even show up in system apps. It only shows up in the downloaded section.
As they said in Galaxy Quest... "Never Give Up. Never Surrender." Thanks everyone.
I use TitaniumBackup syncing with dropbox, but really the market fix isnt hard... Running tntlite larest.
+1 for dropbox. You can also use astro to backup the apk's. They are stored in a folder named backup on the root of your SD card.
I use the program AndroZIP from the Market on my phone.
Do an application backup (part of the app) to my SDCard (it creates a app_backup folder on your SDcard)
Then, you can do bluetooth transfer, or plug phone and gTablet into PC with USB cables, wait for the drives to show up, and move the APK files over. Works well. No root required.
Since my phone is not rooted, I am not sure if this is grabing every application, but it seems to be. I was able to transfer whatever I wanted over from my phone to the tablet this way.
+1 titanium backup and dropbox.
Dropbox is handy but not necessary. Titanium is a must have purchase if you enjoy flashing new roms and don't feel like manually restoring all your apps and settings every time.
If you can download titanium to your Gtab your done. Dl titanium on your phone and backup your apps. Grab the file off your phones SD And move it to your Gtab. Open titanium on your Gtab and select the apps you want to install. You can even save app data this way and continue saved games from your phone ;-)
Reggie777 said:
Thanks to everyone for the help. I am processing and digesting the info and playing around with the suggestions.
Thanks to sjmoreno for telling me where the apps are. And also tcrews. I would never have thought of looking in /mnt/sec. I was actually able to find the apks I was looking for... xplane. et al. Now I'm fiddling with the bluetooth transfer. Got the phone and tablet paired... connection is not working yet. But I'm still trying.
Thanks too to tekrhino for the bluetooth suggestion. Got the transfer program for my Droid. I'm learning how to use it. Seems easy to set up, but won't actually send anything... Still exploring it.
The video on the Market fix doesn't work for me because no matter what I do, Market does not show up in the running apps section of settings. It doesn't even show up in system apps. It only shows up in the downloaded section.
As they said in Galaxy Quest... "Never Give Up. Never Surrender." Thanks everyone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make sure both devices have BTFT installed, that way you won't have any any problems with FTP OBEX protocals.
The app works great and reduces the extra steps you need to take with TB and DB with having to move apk's between the source device to your pc then from your pc to the target device. BTFT is a good source device to target device app.
Hello
I'm waiting for my new Incredible S to arrive shortly and in the meantime I'm reading the user manual, I'm new to Android coming from Windows Mobile world.
Question: if I have backupped my applications to the memory card, in case of an hard reset, is there a way to reinstall them without passing through AppMarket? I have not found any File Explorer or Application Manager included in the ROM... are you obliged to connect to internet and download them?
Thanks
You can use Titanium Backup to back up and restore your apps.
They are not passed through the Android Market.
I do recall the app requires root, but that will be possible soon and is easy to do.
stefanospizzica said:
Hello
I'm waiting for my new Incredible S to arrive shortly and in the meantime I'm reading the user manual, I'm new to Android coming from Windows Mobile world.
Question: if I have backupped my applications to the memory card, in case of an hard reset, is there a way to reinstall them without passing through AppMarket? I have not found any File Explorer or Application Manager included in the ROM... are you obliged to connect to internet and download them?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi there, I hope you will enjoy android!
There is indeed no file explorer installed on the Incredible S.
And yes, you will have to register your google account to access the market to download a file explorer (Astro File Manager for example)
TimMun said:
Hi there, I hope you will enjoy android!
There is indeed no file explorer installed on the Incredible S.
And yes, you will have to register your google account to access the market to download a file explorer (Astro File Manager for example)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi!
Thanks for your prompt answer! I suspected that after reading many threads on this matter. It seems a sort of limitation, I mean, having an SD card with your backup data and needs to connect to internet to download a file manager to install them..
But ok, this is the way it works
please use the ES File Manager .GO Android Market search "ES"
If you really wan't to avoid android market, you could usb adb (android debug bridge) to install titanium backup and then restore your apps. Or you could use adb to install certain apk's (apps are always .apk) you stored on your pc.
simple commands like
adb install C:\bla\bla\*.apk work like a charm
so if you download a filemanager, say "filemanager.apk".
you can give the command
adb install C:\bla\downloads\filemanager.apk
and it will install it on you phone after which you can acces all your files directly on your device.
You will need the SDK and some more info
If you want to use the adb, cd to \platform-tools\
But all this will be clear after a few hours of reading, trial and error
Welcome to Android.
DaanJordaan said:
If you really wan't to avoid android market, you could usb adb (android debug bridge) to install titanium backup and then restore your apps. Or you could use adb to install certain apk's (apps are always .apk) you stored on your pc.
simple commands like
adb install C:\bla\bla\*.apk work like a charm
so if you download a filemanager, say "filemanager.apk".
you can give the command
adb install C:\bla\downloads\filemanager.apk
and it will install it on you phone after which you can acces all your files directly on your device.
You will need the SDK and some more info
If you want to use the adb, cd to \platform-tools\
But all this will be clear after a few hours of reading, trial and error
Welcome to Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello!
thanks for your info. I was actually playing with adb and see it is very powerful. But you need the pc connected to your phone of course and again it seems not a so comfortable solution. I find a little bit curious not having an application installer or file explorer embedded in the system.
About the backup, I know that Tytanium need root privileges, correct? As far as I know no root procedure are still available on Incredible S. But, will tytanium allow to select what you want to restore? Maybe root is not necessary is you want to restore your application and not system files
Thanks
stefanospizzica said:
Hello!
thanks for your info. I was actually playing with adb and see it is very powerful. But you need the pc connected to your phone of course and again it seems not a so comfortable solution. I find a little bit curious not having an application installer or file explorer embedded in the system.
About the backup, I know that Tytanium need root privileges, correct? As far as I know no root procedure are still available on Incredible S. But, will tytanium allow to select what you want to restore? Maybe root is not necessary is you want to restore your application and not system files
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, with titanium backup it is possible to select only certain apps that you wan't to restore.
It is indeed strange that HTC doesn't ship their android devices with a file manager, I recall my Hero didn't have one too. My Galaxy S does, although it's extremely basic.
I think after a few weeks when the first custom roms come out they will probably have a file manager installed in them. Until then I would recommend Linda Filemanager or OI Filemanager from the market, they are both free and quite powerful.
Cheers,
DaanJordaan
Regarding Titanium Root requirements. It does allow you to select between applications to restore, but the root check at start-up means you can't even access the backup/restore screen if your device isn't rooted.
It would be interested to see if a temproot is sufficient to restore certain apps. Something for me to try when i get home
As for the file manager... i think it was a concious decision to keep the device consumer focused. HTC has changed much in the last 2 years and definitely closed a lot of doors/windows they had open to devs and geeky consumers.
Bantu85 said:
Regarding Titanium Root requirements. It does allow you to select between applications to restore, but the root check at start-up means you can't even access the backup/restore screen if your device isn't rooted.
It would be interested to see if a temproot is sufficient to restore certain apps. Something for me to try when i get home
As for the file manager... i think it was a concious decision to keep the device consumer focused. HTC has changed much in the last 2 years and definitely closed a lot of doors/windows they had open to devs and geeky consumers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello
what does temproot means? How do you log on as temproot?
Let me know about your trial...
Thanks
Is there anyway to download and install games/apps from the computer? Can I go into CWM - Mount USB - and then create a folder in my Gtablet and put all my apk files in that folder and then somehow install them once booted into my tablet?
I have never used android before so please forgive my ignorance... I just just flashed Clock Work Mod via NVFlash so I am still learning. I would like to install PSX4Droid and Final Fantasy 7 among other games.
Thank you for your time.
twistid1 said:
Is there anyway to download and install games/apps from the computer? Can I go into CWM - Mount USB - and then create a folder in my Gtablet and put all my apk files in that folder and then somehow install them once booted into my tablet?
I have never used android before so please forgive my ignorance... I just just flashed Clock Work Mod via NVFlash so I am still learning. I would like to install PSX4Droid and Final Fantasy 7 among other games.
Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if they are android files (which, by apk, I assume they are), then yes. Just put them in a folder, use a file explorer to browse to them and open them, and they should install. Of course, installing is no guarantee that they will work on the gTab.
Also note that if you load an app that does not appear in your market, you will not be able to get updates to the app via the market.
You should have a folder called download in the root, use that for consistency.
However, I have found the easiest way is to email them to yourself at the gmail address you use on the tab.
The regular gmail reader provides for installing the APK from inside the message (just click Install!).
Works every time.
(Plus this gives you a backup copy of the app to install from anywhere you have web.)
The easiest way is to place them on a usb flash drive & use a file explorer (i.e root explorer) to install them.
I also want to mention that the new web-based Market will install the programs onto the tab for you when you click to install them from the PC.
No muss, no fuss. I was pretty surprised when I discovered it accidentally.
I just got the Prime R1 HD 16gb today and did TWRP and root. The only issue I've had is for some reason if I move a file onto the phone from my PC with a USB cable, it wont show up. E.G. If I move a file to my downloads folder, it wont be there, but if I download the same file through the phone from the internet it works. I can still see the files I've moved onto the phone from the PC if I use a file explorer, but it wont let me do anything with them. I tried going into the TWRP menu and switched the system off of read only thinking that may help, but it seems to have not done a thing. Complete beginner when it comes to this kind of thing if it isn't obvious. Any ideas?
Egocentred said:
I just got the Prime R1 HD 16gb today and did TWRP and root. The only issue I've had is for some reason if I move a file onto the phone from my PC with a USB cable, it wont show up. E.G. If I move a file to my downloads folder, it wont be there, but if I download the same file through the phone from the internet it works. I can still see the files I've moved onto the phone from the PC if I use a file explorer, but it wont let me do anything with them. I tried going into the TWRP menu and switched the system off of read only thinking that may help, but it seems to have not done a thing. Complete beginner when it comes to this kind of thing if it isn't obvious. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That sounds familiar to the mtp "bug" Android has had for years.
The media storage database does not update when files are added from mtp.
Some work around that are listed are to use USB transfer instead. (Not used that one before)
Disconnect usb cable clear the data if the media storage app and force close it, then reconnect usb is should rescan the media and rebuild database.
Or just a reboot(I have done this and it usually works)