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The Bible

Has anyone ever read it fully understood yet not be religious in anyway

jayjay8585 said:
Has anyone ever read it fully understood yet not be religious in anyway
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yep pretty much but it is pretty hard to apply in real life! I would like to know someone that was not on Oprah and had successfully applied those 'teachings' in real life.

The events shown in the bible hasn't even been proven, there are no hard evidents that those "events" even occurred through history.

re
I believe in a lot of things told and taught in the Bible but I also believe that there has been a lot of things added that are not true. Also I wish that It had never been changed so we could actually know the truth from when it was written.... I am not sure why there is always a new version or new testament. Also have you guys seen Zeitgiest? Although I disagree with some points it does raise some good points which are logical.
Also there is an EXCELLENT book called "Christiannity: A journey from fact to fiction" which you can read for free online.

Consider this the only warning for this thread. If it gets even slightly out of hand or inflammatory Bans will be given and the thread will be locked.
Otherwise have a nice discussion.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

The bible is largely a book of stories and moral guidance, it's not intended to be taken literally, and if you try, then you have to face the fact that it doesn't match up to recorded history and the scientific laws of the universe.

u can understand it if u have the traditional version.. cuz its very hard with the king james version.. but i think its about wat happened and wat will happen.. ps i didnt try to be religious

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and had to read the bible front to back many times when I was a teenager (I have read 3 different bibles front to back; KJV, NWT, ASV). I would call myself agnostic and can enjoy some of the NT on a sole spiritual level, I like the whole concept of unconditional love. I however don't agree with some of the epistle such as Timothy because of their very sexist view of women.
Check out John Shelby Spong he is one of my favorite theologians. He has a very interesting concept on Christianity.

JimmyMcGee said:
Consider this the only warning for this thread. If it gets even slightly out of hand or inflammatory Bans will be given and the thread will be locked.
Otherwise have a nice discussion.
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boy, you sure know how to take all the fun out of a religious debate! chairs flying, fists swinging, and mouths running off so bad Vince Vaughn would have to put on earmuffs (Old School), that's the only way I know how.
datacrime said:
I believe in a lot of things told and taught in the Bible but I also believe that there has been a lot of things added that are not true. Also I wish that It had never been changed so we could actually know the truth from when it was written.... I am not sure why there is always a new version or new testament. Also have you guys seen Zeitgiest? Although I disagree with some points it does raise some good points which are logical.
Also there is an EXCELLENT book called "Christiannity: A journey from fact to fiction" which you can read for free online.
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that is the excuse given (band-aid applied) to the increasingly ancient book known as the bible. The more modern civilization gets, the more we realize the bible's author wasn't god. It's quite understandable anyway, if I tried to write a bible of my own now, it would reflect all of the prevailing beliefs and scientific data of today. Fast forward two thousand years, say, about half of the things i wrote would make no sense in light of new discovery, and the other half could potentially be taken literally. Believers in my book, in order to maintain the infallibly of it, would be forced to say that the incorrect/incoherent parts were added on afterwards by mischievous hoodlums. It's similar to Orwell's 1984, where the truth is not based on some objective facts (i.e. history or the bible) but rather it is subjectively decided and controlled by those in power (Party members or priests).
Anyway, I hope I not offended anyone (so I don't get banned), although normally, I am not quite this tame (I place much credence in the first chapter of Dawkins' "The God Delusion," please read).

I think the problem is that Jay asked a bit of a loaded question right out of the gate. The bible is different things to different people. The way I understand isn't the way a atheist understands it, isn't the way a Christian understands it etc..etc.
The better question is do you mean "understand" in a purely scholarly way?

morning burgertime
i meant has anyone read the bible and fully understood it, while no being religious. ie are you athiest and read the bible im just curious as to how many havent read the bible
like the guy two messages ago says the more modern civilisation get you realise the author wasnt god
i think we all knew that as moses and all others wrote it and centurys have edited it, all i wsas asking is have any none religious bible read and understood the bible
im reading kjv and understand it fine
i wasnt wanting a debate as such just a curiosity and a guess at how many non beleivers blast bible ethics and religion but have never read them in person

Oh ok, in that case then yes. I prefer either the ASV or the NIV for ease of reading.

answer to question is: yes.
i am extremely well versed in the bible (straight from the original hebrew text, and also quite knowledgeable is ancient jewish bible commentators), and no, i don't believe a word of it. i do not know much about the new testament however.

I've tried reading the bible... No better way to fall asleep. I felt like I was reading a dictionary, no interest or belief whatsoever. Not meant to offend anyone, but I really could never see myself reading it front to back knowing I would never use any of it.

kingabraham3 said:
answer to question is: yes.
i am extremely well versed in the bible (straight from the original hebrew text, and also quite knowledgeable is ancient jewish bible commentators), and no, i don't believe a word of it. i do not know much about the new testament however.
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Have you ever heard the theories about the story of Jonah being a way for the old testament to seagway into the new testament? That sort of stuff fascinates me, how they had to explain away the difference in the God of the OT and the God of the NT.

Understanding is God Given
This is an interesting debate. I have read the Bible several times and understand more each time I read it. The Bible teaches that understanding comes from God which some might see as a cop out but I truly understand much more now as a Christian than I did before. I pray for understanding before and after I read and no matter how many times I re-read a portion, I almost always see more. As for the Bible being either fictional or unprovable, this is a narrow view put out mostly by those who have done little true investigation. There are many respected scientists and historians who do not doubt the legitimacy of what the Bible says. For examples, Google "Answers in Genesis".
I think the bottom line is that "faith" is a belief in something for which we don't necessarily have complete proof. In the case of Christianity, it's also a belief in the supernatural, a thing that many non-Christians have no problem with (astrology, tarot cards etc.). At the end of the day, if what I believe is wrong, it makes no difference, if it's true......

Honestly, I envy those who can be religious... It seems like it would be a good feeling, that someone's watching over you, that things happen for a reason, and that through the tough times there's more out there. I think it's great that it brings communities together to churches for not only masses, but I've seen many churches act like more of a community center than anything. Unfortunately, I don't know if it's in the way my mind works or the way I was raised, I just can't seem to hold onto 1 religion as being true... I just go my own way, I'm not sure if I believe there's a God out there, but I feel if there is he must be gracious enough to understand my confusion. As stupid as it sounds, I still pray, and I hope someday I can find the religion that really leads to my true beliefs... I just haven't pieced it together yet.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

Understanding and the Bible
Hi all,
I am a committed Christian so I can't fully answer the question. However, my journey to faith did begin with the Bible. At the age of 13 I was made to read the Bible, specifically the sermon on the mount and Jesus' teaching in the Gospels, by a particularly keen "Scripture" teacher. While I didn't really "understand" what I was reading, when I read it something in me just clicked. It was like I had always known it was true. Strange I know. I decided that I believed in it and from there went on to become and call myself a Christian, found a church, etc. I am now 30 and still believe. I recently went to a church in Medford, Oregon where they have been having a healing revival. I saw several pretty undeniable miracles (short arms and legs growing, bones changing shape, etc.) with my own eyes. That doesn't say anything about the Bible I know but I think it demonstrates that there is a fundamental difference between understanding and belief. Many of the significant experiences I have had both reading the Bible and through my practice of the Christian faith fly in the face of my understanding.
On a more down to earth level, I think that much of what is written in the Bible only makes sense if you have a foundational belief anyway. When Jesus talked about the plank in people's eye (Matthew 7:3), he was talking about their sin against God, which is largely invisible here on Earth. If you take God out of the picture, what does the plank represent?

Any atheists in here?

As I stumbled upon the brotherhood of muslims in this thread, I got a little jealous of the unity they and other religious groups sometimes possess.
Since we atheists aren't a homogeneous group that have any words to follow, except maybe science and the neverending falsification-process of it, I would like to greet all those out there that only believe in the world as you sense it, and the physics behind it.
We don't have any books to follow, so here are 10 good old quotes for you:
1. “The civilized man has a moral obligation to be skeptical. . . . Any man who for one moment abandons or suspends the questioning spirit has for that moment betrayed humanity.” –Bergen Evens
2. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike. -Delos B. McKown
3. Faith means not wanting to know what is true. -Friedrich Nietzsche
4. What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. -Christopher Hitchens
5. Piety is implanted in human nature; it is deemed a sure refuge. To the growing child, that which falls from his elders' lips is a lesson that abides with him all his life. Monks in their cloisters and devotees in the mosques accept their creed just as a story is handed down from him who tells it, without distinguishing between a true interpreter and a false. If one of these had found his kin among the Magians, or among the Sabians, he would have declared himself a Magian, or among the Sabians he would have become nearly or quite like them. -Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri 973-1057
6. The doubter is a true man of science; he doubts only himself and his interpretations, but he believes in science. -Claude Bernard
7. I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. -Mark Twain
8. A believer states everything must have a creator but fail to say how he was created. -Anonymous
9. The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles? -John Adams 2nd president of the USA
10. But the great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact - which is so constantly being enacted under the eyes of philosophers... -T.H. Huxley
Peace.

i consider "atheist" to be one who is not a believer in any of the religious movements out there. It's very possible for them to believe in a god, just not necessarily the god that anybody else subscribes to.
I fall into that category. I believe that the sun gives everything on earth life. Which it does, in one way or another.
And therefore i am cool. Yeah......

Agnostic?
I agree with Mike, partially, since in my humble and uninformed opinion the primary need for religion has always been fear of pain and death. I will disgree with Mike on the net benefit of religion, specially in the 21st century...
Here's another quote:
"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman
and another by a well known philosopher:
"Your're asking me who to follow. You're asking me who is right. Don't ask me. I don't know!" O. Osbourne

mikechannon said:
All of us have faith in some form or other. An atheist scientist has faith that science will produce all the answers (though there is no proof of that). In fact many scientists acknowledge that most theories (even once proven) are only true until another theory come along to show the first one wasn't quite right or did not apply in all situations.
Given virtually every civilisation that has ever existed has had some deity or other then scientifically speaking there must be a human need to have "faith". Furthermore, given nature preserves through the generations, only those things that aid survival, then faith must have a net benefit to survival rather as opposed to not having "faith".
Perhaps it is that humans, because they can think ahead, have a need to know that there is some overall purpose/reason for things. In other words that life is not just some purely accidental /random fluke of nature. Even if "faith" is a delusion therefore, it nevertheless prevents the alternative which would be a belief in the utter pointlessness of everything.
Mike
PS. This thread will only last as long as there is no discussion of specific religions. We all realise (or should do!) the sensitivities involved if we get into commenting on or arguing about peoples religious beliefs. For as long as there is respect perhaps there can be an academic chat. It may be that another Mod will close this thread as a religious debate and not appropriate even in off-topic.
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Thank you for a thoughtful response. I quite enjoyed reading it. As a follower of the scientific method, I can assure you that we will never find all the answers. Because we are so limited.
The last part (PS.->) I can somewhat agree with, but for peace sake only.
What religious person can claim rights over the religion they are part of? I find that offensive. (EDIT: in general life)
I grew up with a religion that I feel I have all the right to say and mean anything about. It's part of me, even though I don't believe in it.
I understand that there is a time and place for everything

I am of the view that religion (of any stripe) is a parasite on the humankind, taking advantage of our weaknesses and exploiting our strengths. Science is the antidote.
If there are any advantages they are incidental.
Surur

surur said:
I am of the view that religion (of any stripe) is a parasite on the humankind, taking advantage of our weaknesses and exploiting our strengths. Science is the antidote.
If there are any advantages they are incidental.
Surur
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The development of ethics and moral values that glues the societies together (even though the morals or ethics may be absurd) can have a very positive and stable effect on the way people interact.
Security. False in a bigger sense, true for the individual.
Other than that, with a grain of salt, I agree.
But I believe that humans are a parasite on the earth. And to be a parasite is not just a negative thing. We are what we are. All events has made us this way, and more will make us change or dissappear in time.

rhov23 said:
The development of ethics and moral values that glues the societies together (even though the morals or ethics may be absurd) can have a very positive and stable effect on the way people interact.
Security. False in a bigger sense, true for the individual.
Other than that, with a grain of salt, I agree.
But I also believe that humans are a parasite on the earth (hehe)
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Who says morals and ethics are tied to religion. They seem to arise from simple game theory - do onto others as you would have done to you did not need Jesus to say it.
Surur

surur said:
Who says morals and ethics are tied to religion. They seem to arise from simple game theory - do onto others as you would have done to you did not need Jesus to say it.
Surur
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I didn't say it was only tied to religion. Religion is made by people, and morals/ethics are therefor made by people. Religion is a way to get a social structure, control the masses, make them believe and behave.
Let's have a quote:
Religion is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx. And don't you DARE call me a communist

mikechannon said:
Well at one level I can agree. If by religion we mean that thing that is used as a reason to fight wars, or religion used by governments to control people.
However I don't agree if we mean religion as the thing that is about wanting to know the answers, particularly to the "big" questions. Or religion as the thing that gives comfort in times of stress etc.
That seems to me the biggest problem in talking about such matters. We would have to spend hours defining what bit or slant on religion we are taliking about.
I actually quite like fzzyrn's concept of believing in a God which is not necessarily the same as any other person believes in and not part of any mainstream religion. You see often I think when you hear scientists talking about the big unknowns and then hear religious leaders talking about the meaning of God it is quite easy to detect a lot of similar thinking between the two. Just for example religious people tend to talk about religion giving people generally and as individuals "a purpose". Just the other day I heard a scientist at the Hadron Collider talking about how discovery of fundamental particles would help us to see "the purpose" of life.
The quest it seems to me is the same and even the language can be the same. History actually shows that religions have lead the way in scientific research. It is only in recent times that science and religion have been seen as conflicting rather than opposite sides of the same coin.
Mike
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I agree with you, but not on the last part.
The large religions, change when they must, not when they should. And only when it comes to hard facts, like the earth rotates around the sun etc.
The fact is that religion changes only for selfpreservation, and not by logic. And what monster do we get then?

rhov23 said:
Religion is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx. And don't you DARE call me a communist
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There are legitimate uses of opiates that benefit everyone that is involved... banning them completely, because of specific types of abuses, would be a foolish move.
The same is true of religion.

psionandy said:
There are legitimate uses of opiates that benefit everyone that is involved... banning them completely, because of specific types of abuses, would be a foolish move.
The same is true of religion.
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Druggie!
Just kidding. Good point, but I never said that I was for a ban. I just want to tell those that are smart enough, that everything around us is connected.
You can't run cars on prayer. Or will someone prove me wrong?

can a free thinker leaning on atheism report in? lol

Baronic said:
can a free thinker leaning on atheism report in? lol
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Hi, welcome. You are now ready to be brainwashed. Please follow my directions closely, and send me $100.
No, really. If you don't send money you will die from old age!

Some quotes I've picked up. Sorry I have previously deleted most of the speakers/writers names-
Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.^Voltaire
But that a camel-merchant should stir up insurrection in his village; that in league with some miserable followers he persuades them that he talks with the angel Gabriel; that he boasts of having been carried to heaven, where he received in part this unintelligible book, each page of which makes common sense shudder; that, to pay homage to this book, he delivers his country to iron and flame; that he cuts the throats of fathers and kidnaps daughters; that he gives to the defeated the choice of his religion or death: this is assuredly nothing any man can excuse, at least if he was not born a Turk, or if superstition has not extinguished all natural light in him.
If God has made us in his image, we have returned him the favor
To pray to God is to flatter oneself that with words one can alter nature.
It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
Our wise men have said that man was created in the image of God. Now here is a lovely image of the Divine Maker: a flat and black nose with little or hardly any intelligence.
God created sex. Priests created marriage.
God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.
All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God.
Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
If the ignorance of nature gave birth to Gods, the knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy them.
If we look back at the begining we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them; and that custom, respect and tyranny support them, in order to make the blindness of man serve their own interest.
Opinions have caused more ills than the plague or earthquakes on this little globe of ours.^Voltaire
They condemn what they do not understand.
The devil's greatest trick was convincing the world that God exists.
The best defense against logic is ignorance.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously.
All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
. . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!
Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience
Reason is the antonym of Religion
Reason should be destroyed in all Christians^Martin Luther
Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived^Oscar Wilde
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unitelligible propositions.
God "fashioned hell for the inquisitive"^St Augustine
Ideas must be distinct before reason can be acted upon them.^Thomas Jefferson
The only victimless crime is blasphemy
The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about
If there were no God, there would be no Atheists.

dane cook anyone....
the bible is going to get printed on you!!!!!!!!

hy
u realy donot have books to follow?
so who will u follow my friend?
people like u who may be right or may not?or people who wanted to be worshiped ? if u donot have a book to follow so u can't do anything except follow devils thoughts .. and who worship sun and earth??
who will be the defender of the earth if there is an asteroid come to it?
we should know that there is a creator to all the universe who is ALLAH and i hope i donot bother u friends with that but i know it's hard to be confinced as every one in every religon can't hear to the other and i hope u cud understand me but it's real
see that plz only look to it http://www.quran-miracle.com/
and this also http://www.quranmiracles.com/
and then tell me if islam is a fake religon as people say
thx for reading

MAZAR SCIENTIST said:
u realy donot have books to follow?
so who will u follow my friend?
people like u who may be right or may not?or people who wanted to be worshiped ? if u donot have a book to follow so u can't do anything except follow devils thoughts .. and who worship sun and earth??
who will be the defender of the earth if there is an asteroid come to it?
we should know that there is a creator to all the universe who is ALLAH and i hope i donot bother u friends with that but i know it's hard to be confinced as every one in every religon can't hear to the other and i hope u cud understand me but it's real
see that plz only look to it http://www.quran-miracle.com/
and this also http://www.quranmiracles.com/
and then tell me if islam is a fake religon as people say
thx for reading
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No God = No Devil
No Supernatural Defender = No Supernatural Attacker

MAZAR SCIENTIST said:
u realy donot have books to follow?
so who will u follow my friend?
people like u who may be right or may not?or people who wanted to be worshiped ? if u donot have a book to follow so u can't do anything except follow devils thoughts .. and who worship sun and earth??
who will be the defender of the earth if there is an asteroid come to it?
we should know that there is a creator to all the universe who is ALLAH and i hope i donot bother u friends with that but i know it's hard to be confinced as every one in every religon can't hear to the other and i hope u cud understand me but it's real
see that plz only look to it http://www.quran-miracle.com/
and this also http://www.quranmiracles.com/
and then tell me if islam is a fake religon as people say
thx for reading
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The Prophets, too, among us come to teach,
Are one with those who from the pulpit preach;
They pray, and slay, and pass away, and yet
Our ills are as the pebbles on the beach.
- Al-Ma'arri, أبو العلاء أحمد بن عبد الله بن سليمان التنوخي المعري
I hope you get well soon.

OMG Cops are ridiculious!

8 year old boy confess to murder
This almost makes me sick to my stomach. Watching the videos that are linked are even worse. The police did not read him his rights or even attempt to allow a guardian or parent to be involved. He said from the beginning that he found his Dad and friend dead when he came home from school and then half way through after an interrogation changed his story to admitting he killed them. Now who knows maybe the kid did shoot his Dad and friend but it sounds to me like these cops are willing to do anything and sink to a new low in Criminal justice.

Many morons there, i assume...

First of all...were you there....do you know all of the facts of the case....do you know if they had a magistrate's warning for the child....do you know anything about procedures, laws, case law or are you just spewing from your mouth. What makes me upset....is that people jump to conclusions without knowing all of the facts...as you can tell by my name I am a cop...a detective in fact....so I am familiar with procedures...and I am sure that the detectives that worked this case, were by the book...if they werent guess what the court will let them know....

Man, How do you know they are showing you the WHOLE tape? I don't think even the Newest Cop would interrogate a child with out following the proper procedure. That would be like me flashing an Incorrect Radio to my phone and asking why I don't have Sound. I'm experienced. I know what I need to do.
I think your anger is misplaced. I think you are appalled that an eight year old could be capable of such an act. But however, they are. So don't be mad at the cops. They are just the messenger.

Being from a city that has seen 4 cops murdered within 6 months, I take extreme offense to the accusations being thrown around here.
Since you weren't the person who recorded the video, then how can you assume you are viewing it in it's entirety? Scum comes in all forms/ages, and I for one, believe the kid is a murderer.

there' are good cops and bad cops!
just cus he/she is a cop, that doesnt automatically makes him/her a good person!

blind belief in authority causes great crimes... allways... thats a lesson from history.. and these cops didnt follow procedure according to the article!
i think when looking at the american justice system its EXTREMELY plausible that these cops just told this 8 year old he was the purpitrator....

avathar behemoth said:
blind belief in authority causes great crimes... allways... thats a lesson from history.. and these cops didnt follow procedure according to the article!
i think when looking at the american justice system its EXTREMELY plausible that these cops just told this 8 year old he was the purpitrator....
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Did I say I had blind belief?
No I said, Don't make sweeping accusations without all the information. And honestly, the American Media is not a good source for information. It's "infotainment"

JimmyMcGee said:
Man, How do you know they are showing you the WHOLE tape? I don't think even the Newest Cop would interrogate a child with out following the proper procedure. That would be like me flashing an Incorrect Radio to my phone and asking why I don't have Sound. I'm experienced. I know what I need to do.
I think your anger is misplaced. I think you are appalled that an eight year old could be capable of such an act. But however, they are. So don't be mad at the cops. They are just the messenger.
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if they are not showing the WHOLE tape, are they hiding something?

slawcop` said:
First of all...were you there....do you know all of the facts of the case....do you know if they had a magistrate's warning for the child....do you know anything about procedures, laws, case law or are you just spewing from your mouth. What makes me upset....is that people jump to conclusions without knowing all of the facts...as you can tell by my name I am a cop...a detective in fact....so I am familiar with procedures...and I am sure that the detectives that worked this case, were by the book...if they werent guess what the court will let them know....
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First of all i would like to say thank you (Slawcop) for your post as i am a LEO in Mich. Crazy how people can just start running their mouths without even knowing what exactly is going on. The news/media just want people to see what they want them to see point blank! "We" as Police Officer see everything that goes on, we get ALL the FACTS/INFO! Maybe they should try to get into a Police Academy and see if they have what it take to become a Officer!!!!!

the boy was not read his rights bc he was assumed to be a victom...not accused of anything...then the story changed and so did the situation.

Ridiculous.

slawcop` said:
First of all...were you there....do you know all of the facts of the case....do you know if they had a magistrate's warning for the child....do you know anything about procedures, laws, case law or are you just spewing from your mouth. What makes me upset....is that people jump to conclusions without knowing all of the facts...as you can tell by my name I am a cop...a detective in fact....so I am familiar with procedures...and I am sure that the detectives that worked this case, were by the book...if they werent guess what the court will let them know....
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Firstly, isn't it your job to jump to conclusions without knowing all of the facts? You create a painting with select facts and then when you get a confession the rest is filled in. This is how a lot of crimes are solved...on good hunches. So I think I should be able to make a judgment on something in an open discussion forum.
Hmmm...perhaps I should have said These cops are ridiculous. My question to you is that if a major crime happened and you were under suspicion would you answer any questions asked? My belief would be that you would immediately get a lawyer and refuse to answer anything, this is because as a police officer you know that they try to use your words against you and confuse you into a confession....or talk you into it. This is fine for a capable adult who can make decisions. However using these tactics on a 8 year old is beyond detestable. These cops did not play it by the book. They did not read the Miranda rights, or try to find a gaurdian they simply lead this child into a confession and then charged him with murder. Again it's beside the point whether or not he did it, it's the low these cops sank too to get what they wanted. Not surprising with an adult, but with a child? Puh-lease.
Also just remember that the seal on the side of your car states "to protect and serve" and not "what are you looking at?". We have every right to question police action.
For the record I dated a CSI whose immediately family were all in the police force. So it's not like I "hate" cops or anything.

well said burgertime!
but isnt any and all evidence, including any confession, inadmissible in court?
isnt that why not the whole tape is released?
reminds me about the story about that cop in the oj trial (mark fuhrman wasnt it?) who let a (probably) guilty guy walk because he "contaminated" evidence, oh and because he was a racist who enjoyed beating up people of colour.......cops should behave better than normal citizens, but i think in many american police departments respectable behaviour is discouraged.

whytestme said:
First of all i would like to say thank you (Slawcop) for your post as i am a LEO in Mich. Crazy how people can just start running their mouths without even knowing what exactly is going on. The news/media just want people to see what they want them to see point blank! "We" as Police Officer see everything that goes on, we get ALL the FACTS/INFO! Maybe they should try to get into a Police Academy and see if they have what it take to become a Officer!!!!!
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Wouldnt that be nice is to have all citizens required to pull a stint in the military and or police force....I bet that would change some of these peoples opinions..

burgertime said:
Firstly, isn't it your job to jump to conclusions without knowing all of the facts? You create a painting with select facts and then when you get a confession the rest is filled in. This is how a lot of crimes are solved...on good hunches. So I think I should be able to make a judgment on something in an open discussion forum.
Hmmm...perhaps I should have said These cops are ridiculous. My question to you is that if a major crime happened and you were under suspicion would you answer any questions asked? My belief would be that you would immediately get a lawyer and refuse to answer anything, this is because as a police officer you know that they try to use your words against you and confuse you into a confession....or talk you into it. This is fine for a capable adult who can make decisions. However using these tactics on a 8 year old is beyond detestable. These cops did not play it by the book. They did not read the Miranda rights, or try to find a gaurdian they simply lead this child into a confession and then charged him with murder. Again it's beside the point whether or not he did it, it's the low these cops sank too to get what they wanted. Not surprising with an adult, but with a child? Puh-lease.
Also just remember that the seal on the side of your car states "to protect and serve" and not "what are you looking at?". We have every right to question police action.
For the record I dated a CSI whose immediately family were all in the police force. So it's not like I "hate" cops or anything.
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Ok…are you really that naïve? It is obvious that you are that uninformed about this case and obviously about what it takes to be a police officer. I don’t jump to any conclusions…I take fact and reasonable prudent means when investigating. I don’t “fill” anything in based off of hunch…..Hunches don’t solve crime..nor have they ever….facts and evidence charge a person with a crime……Probable Cause…charges someone, reasonable suspicion to stop someone, proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone…..no where in there is there anything about hunches….I don’t convict anyone…judges and jury do…..I just present them with the facts of the case not hunches or hearsay, which you obviously listen to. If your going to make a judgment at least make an educated, sound judgment and don’t quote CNN.
You don’t know these cops are ridiculous. They might have made mistakes, but you quoting what CNN is saying it pretty uninformed on your part since you aren’t there. For you information and to answer your question..i have been accused and under suspicion for a crime before and yes I have and would answer questions. I wouldn’t get a lawyer because I have nothing to hide….I am not some unethical, untrustworthy, human being….I am a man who can and will admit when he messes up…See what is wrong with this world today is that everyone wants to blame everyone else for their problems instead of taking responsibility. Us as men are the main culprits…I am a MAN….I don’t need a lawyer nor are you offered one until you are charged….This is the way it works for all….What I really love about your statement is this, “this is because as a police officer you know that they try to use your words against you and confuse you into a confession....or talk you into it.” OMG….and I really hate using that…try to use your words against you…and confuse you into a confession or talk you into it…are you kidding me….that has to be a joke right…I am not even going to dignify that with a response. Grow up man, stop watching cop drama movies and listen to the news and educate yourself about the facts of not only the criminal justice system, but life in general.
“Again it's beside the point whether or not he did it, it's the low these cops sank too to get what they wanted. Not surprising with an adult, but with a child? Puh-lease.” I love this one too, it is beside the point….yeah two lives are lost and that is the point…remember that…if the cops screwed up then they screwed up…they “we” are human cut us some slack. If you think you can do it….come on with it.
I am very aware of what the side of a car says. I can even tell you what my oath is…so I don’t need some uninformed person telling me what my job is especially when you don’t know…”
Well I am glad you dated a CSI…that means absolutely nothing….and it completely irrelevant. The entire point in my response is that you don’t know anything about the case, but yet you are quick to call it….know the facts before you put your name as a “MAN” behind what your saying…

JimmyMcGee said:
Man, How do you know they are showing you the WHOLE tape? I don't think even the Newest Cop would interrogate a child with out following the proper procedure. That would be like me flashing an Incorrect Radio to my phone and asking why I don't have Sound. I'm experienced. I know what I need to do.
I think your anger is misplaced. I think you are appalled that an eight year old could be capable of such an act. But however, they are. So don't be mad at the cops. They are just the messenger.
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NotATreoFan said:
Being from a city that has seen 4 cops murdered within 6 months, I take extreme offense to the accusations being thrown around here.
Since you weren't the person who recorded the video, then how can you assume you are viewing it in it's entirety? Scum comes in all forms/ages, and I for one, believe the kid is a murderer.
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Well said both of you....

avathar behemoth said:
well said burgertime!
but isnt any and all evidence, including any confession, inadmissible in court?
isnt that why not the whole tape is released?
reminds me about the story about that cop in the oj trial (mark fuhrman wasnt it?) who let a (probably) guilty guy walk because he "contaminated" evidence, oh and because he was a racist who enjoyed beating up people of colour.......cops should behave better than normal citizens, but i think in many american police departments respectable behaviour is discouraged.
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Wow...you obvioulsy have alot of well known facts about America and its police force....
yes evidence would be inadmissble if it is obtained wrong....and yes that cop made a mistake, but he is human....he can do that...he is no longer a cop because he was a racist...i am sure you have the perfect police force where you are....

slawcop` said:
Ok…are you really that naïve? It is obvious that you are that uninformed about this case and obviously about what it takes to be a police officer. I don’t jump to any conclusions…I take fact and reasonable prudent means when investigating. I don’t “fill” anything in based off of hunch…..Hunches don’t solve crime..nor have they ever….facts and evidence charge a person with a crime……Probable Cause…charges someone, reasonable suspicion to stop someone, proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone…..no where in there is there anything about hunches….I don’t convict anyone…judges and jury do…..I just present them with the facts of the case not hunches or hearsay, which you obviously listen to. If your going to make a judgment at least make an educated, sound judgment and don’t quote CNN.
You don’t know these cops are ridiculous. They might have made mistakes, but you quoting what CNN is saying it pretty uninformed on your part since you aren’t there. For you information and to answer your question..i have been accused and under suspicion for a crime before and yes I have and would answer questions. I wouldn’t get a lawyer because I have nothing to hide….I am not some unethical, untrustworthy, human being….I am a man who can and will admit when he messes up…See what is wrong with this world today is that everyone wants to blame everyone else for their problems instead of taking responsibility. Us as men are the main culprits…I am a MAN….I don’t need a lawyer nor are you offered one until you are charged….This is the way it works for all….What I really love about your statement is this, “this is because as a police officer you know that they try to use your words against you and confuse you into a confession....or talk you into it.” OMG….and I really hate using that…try to use your words against you…and confuse you into a confession or talk you into it…are you kidding me….that has to be a joke right…I am not even going to dignify that with a response. Grow up man, stop watching cop drama movies and listen to the news and educate yourself about the facts of not only the criminal justice system, but life in general.
“Again it's beside the point whether or not he did it, it's the low these cops sank too to get what they wanted. Not surprising with an adult, but with a child? Puh-lease.” I love this one too, it is beside the point….yeah two lives are lost and that is the point…remember that…if the cops screwed up then they screwed up…they “we” are human cut us some slack. If you think you can do it….come on with it.
I am very aware of what the side of a car says. I can even tell you what my oath is…so I don’t need some uninformed person telling me what my job is especially when you don’t know…”
Well I am glad you dated a CSI…that means absolutely nothing….and it completely irrelevant. The entire point in my response is that you don’t know anything about the case, but yet you are quick to call it….know the facts before you put your name as a “MAN” behind what your saying…
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Naive? Hardly. Uninformed on this case? I will concede to that....either way it is my opinion and evidently quite a few lawyers and former prosecutors agree. Just google this case and see.
Now on to your other points. If your a detective and were under suspicion of something as serious as murder and you would answer all questions with out a lawyer then your the one who is naive. I have served on a jury, and have a friend who is a public defender. I've seen first hand how the justice system works. Also my friend has told me plenty about how cops and detectives operate. Lets get one thing straight, I think those tactics are fair when it is two adults. If your stupid enough to admit to something then that is your fault and I applaud the cop who can get his man just using his guile....however this was a child and not an adult.
As an adult it should be easy to see that a detective who is interrogating me is tricking me, and I also know that "anything I say will be used AGAINST ME". It doesn't say in the Miranda rights anything can be used for me it says anything can be used against me. However your average child can't comprehend this. You know that and I know that. Guilty or not guilty has no bearing on this. It's the fact that these cops were willing to curt the legal system to prosecute a child.
Come on, I am not an idiot, your telling me that you have never just suspected someone based on circumstantial evidence? Then got that person to confess only using the circumstantial evidence? If not, your not doing job good enough. Cases are won and lost all the time on circumstantial evidence. This is evidence that is merely suspicion and not based on hard evidence.

I think the problem here is twofold:
First, people who are not Cops seem almost invariably to fall for the media hype that Cops aren't "real people" but some kind of group of brainwashed individuals who only care about getting a tick mark on their record for solving cases. This is simply NOT TRUE. Cops don't get paid extra for solving cases. They don't get rewards, awards, or any "kudos" other than maybe a slap on the back or a "good job" from their supervisors. They are people who hate the thought of a child victim or a child committing a crime as much as any other reasonable person in society. It is expounded upon over and over again in a Cop's career that it is as more important to make sure innocent persons don't go to jail than it is to catch a crook. It is simply unbelievable how many criminals I have seen that were not charged with the crime because there was an enormous amount of circumstantial evidence... But, maybe, not quite enough for a proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Second, the media rarely shows the whole video of any Police involved incident because they want RATINGS and MONEY. I can't recall how many videos I have watched in training in which 48 hrs or a similar show chopped up an in car video and showed only the seemingly negative sections of the video just to create a national uproar about an incident. Then Cops get to watch the video years later (after the court case is over) with the edited parts included. Then you see the cop ask the suspect out of the vehicle six-eight times before the fight is on.
In my experience most Cops care the MOST about children. Children tend to be the most innocent and when they are victimized they are true victims in every sense of the word without any way remove themselves from the situation or defend themselves. Many Detectives REFUSE to work child crimes because they don't think they can personally/mentally handle seeing the abuse that occurs.
Allegations that some Cops would attempt to FRAME and 8 year old child both makes me sick at my stomach and makes me realize just how much people are willing to see another as an ogre rather than look for a reasonable/rational reason for the conduct.

Bringing out the worst in me...

Alrighty then, what brings out the worst in oneself?
For me, it is boredom. When I'm bored, I transform into a malevolent being capable of endless joy and humour.
At others' expense.

People asking ridiculous questions on this forum really grinds my gears.

Lane discipline on islands, bad drivers in general.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App

mercianary said:
Lane discipline on islands, bad drivers in general.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
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+over 9000
I HATE middle-lane drivers and people cutting across roundabout lanes when I'm trying to turn right.

People, in general.
Not the like-minded ones who gravitate to the same hang-out spots that i do, just the 99.9% general public/hoi-poloi/great unwashed masses, who share nothing except their inability to raise their average IQ's above that of a Tapeworm.

DirkGently1 said:
People, in general.
Not the like-minded ones who gravitate to the same hang-out spots that i do, just the 99.9% general public/hoi-poloi/great unwashed masses, who share nothing except their inability to raise their average IQ's above that of a Tampon.
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I corrected that for you

johncmolyneux said:
+over 9000
I HATE middle-aged drivers and people cutting across lanes when I'm trying to turn.
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FTFM. Now that you know how I drive...

Spam from the dead!
-We do what we must because we can; for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead-

Holy Necro-Thread Batman!
I was about to post that it was a good idea for a thread..
..and then realised it was. 3 months ago!
I don't even remember posting in it before. Second bite at the apple... i would still say that people being dumb grinds my gears. It's got nothing to do with education. You can teach a monkey to solve puzzles. I'm not impressed by qualifications. Any idiot can memorise a bunch of stuff, regurgitate it in an exam and get 'qualified'.
I respect people for having original thoughts of their own. For being creative. Isaac Newton realised that contemporary Math wasn't cutting it.. so he invented Trigonometry. INVENTED it. I can barely spell it! Of course, while he was mostly focused on turning Lead into Gold, he somehow found the time to discover Gravity and come up with the Laws of Motion.
The highly qualified people is see at work every day are chemical Engineers and even Doctors. I sometimes wonder how some of them even manage to tie their own shoe-lace some days. Most of them are as clever as a block of cheese.
There's no excuse for being dumb. If you feel that perhaps you are dumb? Pick up some books! You've got one lifetime to find out as much as you can about the universe. Don't you feel the clock ticking...?

I can read minds, doesn't that make sense?
It's uncanny how you can sum up my frustrations into one rant. And somehow you managed to remove the swearing I would have incorporated into it as well!
-We do what we must because we can; for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead-

I_am_Error said:
I can read minds, doesn't that make sense?
It's uncanny how you can sum up my frustrations into one rant. And somehow you managed to remove the swearing I would have incorporated into it as well!
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It took an extra five minutes to edit out the swearies..!
Seriously though, i've been around people of all walks of life. There are two individuals that spring to mind. One was a Tree Surgeon, (arborist), and the other was a common labourer...same as i was. The former was my age, my level of 'education', and even in my line of work.. but man did he make me think. He questioned everything, (same as i did), but the conversations we had would go on forever. "If i kicked out the door-stop...", one conversation went.. "where does the energy go when the door slams shut?", he asked. That one went on for hours!
Bearing in mind that this this was a fit, popular guy with a stunning girlfriend and a career in manual labour. He was a wealth of knowledge about Cetaceans, and most anything about the animal kingdom. He taught me that i still had a lot to learn myself! It wasn't the fact that this stuff even crossed his mind that surprised me.. it was that he questioned everything. It was that curiosity that made him awesome. You could see that behind his eyes were cogs that were always turning. Someone else with a thirst for knowledge!
The other example was a kid i knew who was trying to earn a bit of cash-in-hand, doing the hard labour on a day-rate. We'd chat while we worked and we'd get into the deeper discussions of Evolutionary Psychology, for example. Told well, maybe some students will listen... of those, some might even understand the subject matter. Of those who understand, you might find a few who could go one step further and add something novel to the conversation.. come up with an original suggestion or two of their own. So here's a 17 year old kid who having never even thought about it before is suddenly discussing the subject with me like a pro! Not only discussing it, but taking it places even i hadn't thought of. He's making me re-think my own beliefs!
That is insight! That is the same flexibility of mind that led the great thinkers of our time to advance science, not only in small steps, but in giant leaps! Few have that ability..and when it comes, it's often from the most unexpected places! Einstein was a Patent Clerk, for instance. Ok, he was a Math prodigy too, but i bet he didn't waste his free time watching reality TV shows!
If only a fraction of the people in the world were allowed to reach their potential, we'd be in the midst of a second Renaissance right now. Instead, we're held back as a race by short-sightedness, inertia, dogma..and an unforgivable amount of ignorance!
*And that, Ladies and germs, will have to be my rant for the night! I'm sure it could have been a better read, but i'm not one of those who will advance human knowledge in any significant way. One of you you could be though...if you could just get off of your fat, lazy arses first!

DirkGently said:
Holy Necro-Thread Batman!
I was about to post that it was a good idea for a thread..
..and then realised it was. 3 months ago!
I don't even remember posting in it before. Second bite at the apple... i would still say that people being dumb grinds my gears. It's got nothing to do with education. You can teach a monkey to solve puzzles. I'm not impressed by qualifications. Any idiot can memorise a bunch of stuff, regurgitate it in an exam and get 'qualified'.
I respect people for having original thoughts of their own. For being creative. Isaac Newton realised that contemporary Math wasn't cutting it.. so he invented Trigonometry. INVENTED it. I can barely spell it! Of course, while he was mostly focused on turning Lead into Gold, he somehow found the time to discover Gravity and come up with the Laws of Motion.
The highly qualified people is see at work every day are chemical Engineers and even Doctors. I sometimes wonder how some of them even manage to tie their own shoe-lace some days. Most of them are as clever as a block of cheese.
There's no excuse for being dumb. If you feel that perhaps you are dumb? Pick up some books! You've got one lifetime to find out as much as you can about the universe. Don't you feel the clock ticking...?
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Man, thats's all WAAAAAY to serious for the OT forum

the_scotsman said:
Man, thats's all WAAAAAY to serious for the OT forum
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What blasphemy is this? Most people in ot that I converse with tend to be far more serious than most people out of OT OT iz sruz bidness. Don't belittle us lol jk
-We do what we must because we can; for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead-

Lulz, how did my drunken rambles end up in here
Anyway, that's a few million more of my own brain cells successfully killed off. Or at least that's how it feels this morning!

If you think the entire world turns around you, you are crazy. It turns around me and my very huge modesty. ROTFLMAO

Well, let us begin.....if you may pass around, the virgin's blood, the black candles and the tongue of a dead man whom killed himself.....Woopsy doopsy! Another forum...sorry, my bad.
;-)
I don't like to talk much about myself, least of all in an internet forum.
But fair is fair, and I am asked to introduce myself.
So I'll make an effort, without guaranteeing any results.
I'm in my middle forties.
I'm sitting on my bed while I write this.
Be right back: nature calls, and she's a batch.
Back, and I seem to weigh a little less now.
I feel light as Trump's head.
So, coming back to me, myself and I: I always loved computers, although I never quite understood them very much. Some claim that I know a lot about computers.....but this opinion is only shared by those who know absolutely nothing about them, and see them as entities which could eat them alive if they pressed the "wrong button". I know better: I have a limited knowledge regarding computers, but I do possess an endless curiosity, and I always seem to find somebody whom is kind enough as to give me her/his time to teach me, or help me out of deep shi-t when I, very rarely!, take a path that I know nothing about and "boldly go seeking where no one has sought before"......
As you already know by now, I love Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Thrillers and Terror; this in all medias: movies, series, graphic novels, comics, mangas, animations, books.....
I love to row, ski, practice volleyball and rugby, ride a bike and a horse, run, go rollerskating and ice skating, swimming and climbing.
I also write a lot, but nothing's been published so far. I happen to read way more than I write though.
I spent seven years in a wheelchair/using crutches, and now I am riding bikes again....it feels like the first time I rode one, when I was a child.
Let us simply say I come a long way to where, and when, I stand today.
I may not be of a lot of help to you, because my knowledge is really limited. Now. But, with your kind help, it will come a day when I will be able to give my helping hand to others in these matters as well as some others.
Looking forward to keep in touch with you all.
Live long and prosper, from Geneva, Switzerland.
(To your questions: YES, I love chocolate; YES, I love cheese; YES, I love watches and have half a dozen of them, several of which I repaired myself (and one I broke on my own too, for being an arrogant moron); YES, I love mountains: so, if you leave aside that I don't love banks, the swiss stereotype is fully fulfilled--well, I could love a bank if I owned one, but that not being the case.......)
PS: "Aexis" is not a typo error nor a choice because other names (Alexis, for instance) were already taken: it is my real name. And Tenax is my last name, after I chose to change the one I was sadly born with: for those of you whom don't know Latin, "Tenax" means "Tenacious" (as in "Tenacious D", the movies and the music). Modesty is not one of my defects, neither is arrogance.
Ah, my sense of humour is not shared by many: I am absolutely crazy about Monty Python, Chaplin, Buster Keaton, the Three Stooges, the animated original series of the Pink Panther (and I bought the entire DVD collection), Mr Bean, Not the Nine o'Clock News, Fry and Laurie, Red Dwarf and sooooooooooooooo many others. I even have a t-shirt that says: "I speak fluent sarcasm", to make things clearier for those with an impaired or atrophied sense of humour.
If you read until here, thanks for your time, and hope to "see" you soon!

Hi Tenacious Alexis!
Ahh, madness: the best way to make friends. Allow me to shamelessly pull this out of context:
aexistenax said:
I am absolutely crazy
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It's been a pleasure to read your introduction. I have a T-shirt that has "I have six words for you" on it, what a blissful moment when they ask me what they are. Yes, T-shirts truly mark our sense of humour. Honest feedback: "it will come a day" may be the reason you haven't been published yet Great to read about your recovery, must've been quite the rocky road. Let's try not to circumvent the swear filters, it's a nice place here Oh and let's not make things political because there's no end to that and this place is all about our universal love for tech. Hey, I also have a Swiss watch, a MyKronoz ZeTime. Its quality is indeed quite remarkable! Anyway, I'll keep it short. Pleased to meet you.

Timmmmaaahh! said:
Hi Tenacious Alexis!
Ahh, madness: the best way to make friends. Allow me to shamelessly pull this out of context:
It's been a pleasure to read your introduction. I have a T-shirt that has "I have six words for you" on it, what a blissful moment when they ask me what they are. Yes, T-shirts truly mark our sense of humour. Honest feedback: "it will come a day" may be the reason you haven't been published yet Great to read about your recovery, must've been quite the rocky road. Let's try not to circumvent the swear filters, it's a nice place here Oh and let's not make things political because there's no end to that and this place is all about our universal love for tech. Hey, I also have a Swiss watch, a MyKronoz ZeTime. Its quality is indeed quite remarkable! Anyway, I'll keep it short. Pleased to meet you.
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Thanks for the warm welcome, and my apologies for "breaking the rules" regarding politics and"swearing". I was, as you realized, kind of testing the limits.....but I'll fall inline from now on.
Well, most of the time at least.
Ok, many times.
Alright, make it a few times.
Or two.
Or one.
;-)
Ok. I'll try my best (not) to misbehave.
You can quote me on that last line out of context as well......
Silly though, I'd have loved to know what your answer is to those asking naively "which are the six words you have for me?". I bet my soul that the censorship for the swearing would not let you write that answer here.....Nope, scratch that: I already sold my soul, so I can't bet on it anymore.....
;-)

aexistenax said:
I'll misbehave.
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Gotcha! Oh don't worry about it, you were merely bending them a bit. We appreciate some passion in the conversatios around here.
As for how I respond to that question: I just stare at them in silence for a bit, they usually figure it out. If they really don't get there I start tapping the words one by one.