Database Develop

Blackstone Android Kernel Project

I would like to kick this project back off following the withdrawal of tuxhero.
After putting the feelers out and speaking with the developer responsible for the vogue android Kernel build & port I would like to Try and bring those guys onboard and am looking at a way to source them with a device. Further conversations need to take place and definitive project scope and tasks defined with much more transparent approach to the code development.
I have registered androidkernel.com and am asking for feedback from you all on how you think you would like things to pan out. My role is with Project Management and have a wealth of experience in that area, so I would be looking to appoint a team of people to work on the project and either set bounties for milestones or listen to other options and feedback on reaching our project goals.
Hopefully something of value can be achieved and I would be grateful to hear from the previous developers for any assistance available. We can create a website or use github or google code, opinions wanted and lets not rule anything out.
Sangreal

I would be glad to help out with this project. But since I dont have much time (I work 8-10hours/day as a developer) I would be glad if this would be an open development for all to contribute to.
Also it would be nice if the technical documents that Tuxhero has was posted to the developers so that they could be able to make progress faster.
Lets hope we can get android for our device.

I'm in agreement totally - open source, more transparency would be the aim.

very nice ...
but we should ask tuxhero, to share his researched information and diffs.

tuxhero actually didn't get anything done at all. He was making fake posts but in reality he wasn't doing anything.

Lets try not to get into any of that, but I agree there was very little transparency or visibility of code development.
I have asked Tuxhero if he could handover documentation and anything else to kickstart things so whether that is provided we shall see.
Sangreal

sangreal said:
I would like to kick this project back off following the withdrawal of tuxhero.
After putting the feelers out and speaking with the developer responsible for the vogue android Kernel build & port I would like to Try and bring those guys onboard and am looking at a way to source them with a device. Further conversations need to take place and definitive project scope and tasks defined with much more transparent approach to the code development.
I have registered androidkernel.com and am asking for feedback from you all on how you think you would like things to pan out. My role is with Project Management and have a wealth of experience in that area, so I would be looking to appoint a team of people to work on the project and either set bounties for milestones or listen to other options and feedback on reaching our project goals.
Hopefully something of value can be achieved and I would be grateful to hear from the previous developers for any assistance available. We can create a website or use github or google code, opinions wanted and lets not rule anything out.
Sangreal
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should get in contact with TuxHero at least to ask about his technical documentation on the Blackstone and also if he is able to share any code. There is no harm in two teams working on this brilliant project!
So are the Vogue team really willing to try and crack the Blackstone? Do they need an actual handset?
Edit: If you actually managed to WORK WITH Tux that would be awesome

Transparacy is the clue.. there are a lot of smart heads here that may decide to contribute if the project is open for all..
good luck guys..

Good luck with the management Sangreal, its looking good!
Hope you can gather a good team.

nizzon said:
Good luck with the management Sangreal, its looking good!
Hope you can gather a good team.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Allthough I do not use the Touch HD for the moment, I wish You all the best. I'm sure You will make it!
If TuxHero does not provide You with the documents he got, I say his intension was only to get 5 minutes of fame.

im happy this project has started, but what plan do you have in mind to get the vogue developers a blackstone? What i mean to say is that even though the blackstone is starting to get a tad dated, its still a very expensive device.

maybe you could get the donation pot from the other thread. that just about added up to the cost of a blackst... oh.

This sounds great.
let us keep this thread clean of the thing other people have done in the past.
and support the topic starter with every bit of information we could give.
i hope he could build a android kernel for the blackstone.

Just a suggestion..
Perhaps the following thing to do would be to list things what needs to be done, what is high priority and is related to what. Also if the task/s could be categorized by difficulty (read: time expected to complete).
Then after we have a list, we can start addressing task/s to people or smaller teams.
I also suggest that there would be some kind of progress bar per task (how much is completed of the task and what is the estimated time for the task to be 100% complete, what is working and what is not). Then there would be no need for people to ask questions like "when is this ready?".
The last thing I would suggest is that we make a list of people that are willing to contribute and with what (read: I would like to contribute and I have skills in ______________)
I would like to contribute with code but I have no experience of hardware coding so I guess it is better I stand aside. However, if You need a forum setup (live chat etc etc), just let me know. I do not want to step on any toes but if you need someone to help with trying to manage the project, I'm absolutely willing to give a hand.

My developing skills are close to none existent,
however any designs (web design, graphic designs and stuff like that) i can do well (or atleast other people think so)
I can also do any testing, if any of this may be useful, let me know.
- Dan

Thanks for all the suggestions so far and I will get in touch with those who have offered skills in other areas to assist where possible, I appreciate a lot of people are waiting for some value in this port and at least a fully implemented kernel.
It will take a couple of days for me to touch base with some of the developers on here and I will need to discuss things in more detail with them whilst at the same time getting the base requirements fulfilled on which to start the project off properly, after which there will be a kick off in some form.
My intention regarding getting a device for them if needed was to contribute myself as well as set up donations however bearing in mind the debacle of people donating before and nothing really progressing I am somewhat conscious of doing this properly and not in the business of obtaining something for nothing so definitely need some good suggestions on that aspect.

make a bounty

no donation, get that f**king thing out of your mind... as soon as the project is done, then open it. Not that I don't value WIP, but otherwise it will only lead to the same disasters we had in the last two attempts... (and I'm not talking about the other devices or other development attempts)
"oh yeah, why is the thing not out yet"
or
"we gave you money, where's the progress"
will be questions we always will see, even if that person didn't donate.
Let money out of the game, it spoils everything.

I personally would still love to wait for tuxhero. Not because I have donated, but simiply believe that good people is all around. BTW, it is always good to have more and more developer to join. Thanks everyone.

Apparently cash is going to be the pilot light and life cycle motivator of such a massive project. Qualified developers a project manager and loads of volunteers. The consensus is $50 (US) per person. That seems far too inexpensive if such a project is to reach a satisfactory conclusion. I agree, giving up our hard earned cash to persons unknown, for unknown effort is not a productive way to go.
What is needed is an escrow: Donations held until specific milestones area reach, as predetermined. Personally, I don't want to give, for example, $250 and some one else $50, with the expectation we each receive the same result. Then again, if specific donations are mandated then this becomes a private project. Oh boy! Back to square one.
No, here's the deal: Each person donate what they want with the donation kept secrete. Either a service or a reputable member hold the donations, perhaps in a paypal account until a bounty release is authorized.
I'm a little less than optimistic, but I am quite agreeable (and already have) to donating to this worthy effort.

[A THOUGHT] Copying in an Open Community

Android is open. That's why I have my Samsung Galaxy S, my Nexus One and my Sapphire.
I have these phones because the open community can do better than the professionals, and I am proud to be a member of a community that has recently hacked Froyo onto the G1, Android2HD2 (and other Winmo devices), created great skins and themes, rooted almost every droid to date, hacked google navigation to work in other countries etc etc etc.
There is amazing work being done is this community.
Kingklick was able to put out a lot of ROMs which satisfied a lot of people. Contributors to Cyanogenmod (disclaimer. notably not Cyanogen himself) and others (fans and friends - disclaimer. note lack of word fanboys - of cyanogenmod, disclaimer. plus some others too) have flamed and flamed away about Kangklick (notably via twitter - I have stopped following any of those jerks that clogged up my feeds with what could've - screw that - should've been settled MUCH more privately..I followed you guys for dev news or the occasional interesting insight into your real life, not your petty bickering, but you have every right to post what you like...hence why I stopped following you all, I didn't flame you...note 'bigger man').
Rule 12 of XDArules clearly states that using the work of others must be done with permission, independent of whether it is open source or not. If this is not upheld then the post will be bought down, it does not say the user will be banned. I would understand the formality of taking the post down and requesting Kingklick reposts the ROM with due credit, but I believe - note believe...implies opinion - that moderators may have been influenced by pressure from other (high ranking, public eye) members and thus did not adhere to normal or just (I do not know if not giving creds is normally treated in this way, but you will discover I believe it shouldn't be) protacol. Kingklick broke the rules of XDA, but then again I see his banning as the least contentious issue here.
I believe that members of the XDA community in the public eye (ie with large Twitter follower base) due to their work via XDA (no matter what you say, cyanogenmod may be based at its own domain, but it still posts at XDA to maintain its public profile and feed of the massive XDA userbase, and is hence in part bound by this) have a responsibility to follow the rules of XDA on XDA rules and disputes. I do not think this is something which can be policed ('I'm banning you Wes for Trolling Kingklick...on Twitter'... not gonna work) but I think it is a moral obligation (anyone that thinks the internet is not bound by morality should take a reality check...the reason why we have open source is essentially ethics).
Do we give credit to Linus Torvalds every time we distribute linux kernels or work to do with linux? Do we give credit to those that helped him create this base? Do we give credit to Google for creating Android? HTC? Our carriers? Martin Cooper for inventing the mobile phone and cell networks? Time Berners-Lee for inventing the internet, giving rise to this forum, Google and thus the Phones/Devices we love and use? The fact is we don't give credit where due (although you may say its obscure to thank these people, they DO deserve our thanks). None of the ROM chefs/coders give all credit where due, but a lot do in part, with those directly involved. But who still thanks the original rooters?
Kingklick has been declared a copier by the jury...I haven't delved through the evidence to confirm this...but shouldn't we be much more relaxed about copying in general? All users should be open about their work with Android, but they are not. If kingklick based a build off Cyanongenmod, and gave due credit for that, he would be called unoriginal, despite his attempts to make improvements. I also believe that there should be transparency, a log of all complaints of interest and the community told in a statement from the mods why someone was banned...at least in part (keeping gory details to themselves thank you very much).
Donations are generally given by 'end-users'...noobs who can flash and maybe do some work on the builds but their contributions are limited. End users generally want user experience, and reward devs with commendation and donations. If kingklick does work on a build which satisfies more users and he hence gets donations, is that stealing donations? No. The original dev works on an open source project knowing that their work is open, but the end user can reward as he/she likes. Perhaps kingklick developed his following due to his branding...he did always use words like FAST and STABLE and SMOOTH, but Apple do the same and they're not banned from trading despite the hyperbole.
I do not doubt that a lot of devs thanks fellow devs with donations. Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick, however a lot of donations come from end users, and if kingklick replaces a few files using winrar (something which I generally contest, I believe kingklick does a lot of great work) and that satisfies more end users by being fast and stable and smooth (or perceived as being so thanks to branding) then he can get donations for that, they are a gesture of satisfaction and goodwill.
Kingklick was immoral by not giving true credit, however I believe that he could have been warned and asked to give credit once he got back from his night out (whether that excuse, or what ever his actual excuse was, was true).
I also laugh at the accusation that kingklick does not fill a niche within the 'open'/'free' community. This should not result in grudges and flame wars, whether it is true or not. Kingklick did fill a niche in my opinion: reviewers (and consumers) see vanilla android as being sterile. Hell it is sterile, and it's never going to be as successful as others if it doesn't sort this out. Cyanogenmod and other big names are based off this sterile form of Android, but they don't delve into Sense UI and other alternative skins, mainly due to preferences or copyright problems etc, not that that stops them with other things. Kingklick did work with these and he filled his niche by delivering great, fast, usable roms of these whilst others sneered at them for being inefficient coding or whatever...geeky snobbery.
Kingklick also delivered various fixes and things which other groups did not. I won't list all of these and I am sure representatives of Cyanogenmob et al will say 'we were gonna fix these issues anyways' or 'that's redundant' or 'that was patchy code', but kingklick has contributed. Obviously we have to hold ethics above output, we can not say that 'his holiness' (inteneded to mock those who believe cyanogen alone is a god, not cyanogen himself) Cyanogen's contributions to android exempt him from following conduct, but we do a great job of driving away good developers with flaming and telling tales. Perhaps you'll say kingklick was not a good developer, Drizzy, even Haykuro etc etc, but I only flashed Cyanogenmod on my Nexus once and I didn't like it for various reasons (personal preference yada yada) but I kept going back for more kingklick...whether that's perceived speed and branding etc or just satisfaction.
King's desire roms are great, but we never mobbed, trolled and banned the poor guy for not giving creds to HTC. Surely the morality of our community using software like Rosie on the Nexus is more ethically questionable than a fellow member of XDA's work, since HTC is a firm which employs people. I bought a Nexus over the Desire because I knew I could still have Sense and a bigger dev community, however the cost included in the Desire which goes to the developers of Sense is hence forgone (perhaps indeirectly, I don;t know HTC internal funding); therefore I have - and anyone who has ever flashed a Sense ROM or devved with Sense - indirectly caused loss of welfare for people who rely of developing as their source of income, tehir families, communities and economies. Surely that is less ethical than not saying thank you, but XDA has no problem with that. Perhaps it is too small to notice, but it will have an indirect impact nonetheless.
Yes kingklick should've said his please and thank you, but I think it's community hyped double standards, pretensical courtesy (not that I wouldn't give creds, it's just that pleases and thank yous are nice, but not actually useful). A wise man once said 'there is no threshold for immorality', just because kingklick did a larger 'crime' than the rest of the community in not giving his thanks out, that does not exempt the other rule breakers (ie everyone), it just means their punishment should be less severe...we choose to ignore it because it's less direct or forgotten about.
In conclusion, I think we should start a 'contributors to Android' part of XDA, added to by mods or specifically appointed members of the community (like the portal). This could be informative and could mean that forgotten about contributors could not be forgotten, but their contributions immortalised in the open community of Android. Even if the contributions become redundant, they are the foundations for the next chapter in the Android story.
Finally. www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a very good read..and think about what AOSP stands for (I'll give you a clue...Android Open Source Project!). Can you steal what is open? What right have others to dictate what can and cannot be distributed in the open aspects of Android code (ie the underlying OS and vanilla UI...I'm not confused with Apps). Perhaps kingklick was guilty of plagiarism? But so is anyone that claims they worked really hard in that kernel without crediting Linus and leaving a donation link to his family or favourite charitable causes. Anyone that says I've reworked the UI without giving credits to The Astonishing Tribe for the original Android concepts which all UIs are based off...
Android is closed, that's why I question this 'community'.
I am not proud to be a member of this 'community'...right now.
Ps. Cyanogenmob was originally a typo (using words like mobbed in my piece...Freudian slip on the keyboard rather than fat finger syndrome)...but I kept it in as I thought it was funny...the Cyogenmob should replace team douche IMHO!

Wow, didn't realise how long it was...out of interest has anyone actually read the whole thing !?

Yeah, I read it and agree to some extent.
While what he did was wrong, he shouldn't be banned for it. I do not know all the circumstances around it but from what I read it appears he made sense UI for the Nexus one?
I believe that cyanogen is becoming more and more powerful as a body and it is starting to strong arm others when they believe they are in the wrong. I don't understand why people should shunned as he was simply because he didn't give due credit. From seeing all these devs get the boot from websites because they didn't give all the sources for their work. This is a major hinderance from some people wanting to develop new ROMs. I mean it seems that some people want to get credit for what they did and want to have the fame of what they developed, and not just because they wanted to further the development of phones and custom ROMS.
Some people may not agree with my stance, but I just think you give people another chance for slip ups like that one and not just a boot with no questions asked.

The problem is NOT just using other people work with/without permission...
The problem is cheating the users to get more donations:
Example:
-DevA: Oh, i've been 3 nights compiling the code for you all!!!!
-Users: Ohhh, thankyou, gonna donate for your hard work!!!
-DevA: Ok, here you have the link (and the download is from DevB work with a little text-editor touch-up).
That's not the way of doing things (imho)

sorry but no. the proper way is
devA: "i took all of jubeh's work and 'optimized a text file' and uploaded it, pretty awesome right?"
you: "cool story bro"
devA: "i need a new phone"
you: "im poor but wth if you keep not making your own work and ask for donations"
devA: "ya rly"
you: "maybe i should've donated to the guy that made this all and not the one that file pushed the wifi files over... =("

wow lets have some proof of this please and i quote "Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick" we know cyan does but prove king does if not take the statement out

If King put in the same amount of effort HazzBazz put in to creating this thread/writing that ever so long first post, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But really, did we need another thread on this topic ? I lost track but theres been atleast 10+ threads discussing this and all resulting in a lock/user under investigation.

See guys no one from cm contributors told anyone bout banning kk but yes every one was angry that he never gave credit to anyone. We told him a hundred time already to give credit. I don't know if bbannin does justice here but still he violated a lot of rules. He never released his kernel source. Never gave credits for others hard work. Bout drizzy he got banned for scamming a user. It's not winrar but winzip Get ur facts right. We r talking bout crediting the work of the community. If u do something spending day n night on expecting nothing but some respect or credit for ur work u get angry in ur language doing 1 month job n not getting paid. I would recommend u all try contributing before writing such justifications n flames n more. So kingklick was wrong n given many warnings before being banned. He was not a bad dev or something but as I told u reward for a contributor is credits. Bout donating I guess from tomorrow I'll start packaging cm froyo nightlys change the name of the Rom post it n start asking for donations. I'll even put some unicorns n ponies in it for u guys so it ismagical. N if u thing stuff can be fixed without the source u r wrong. For fixing 99% percent of stuff u need to know how to work with source n compile. Rest 1% are silver by pushing files. And again no one from cm asked any mod to ban him. It was their internal decision. There was no influence whatsoever

And one more thing. U all remember Eugene whom u all made run away from magic n dream. He even caught kingklick using his work by adding a coded name oc the Rom that clearly said Eugene n this made king cry. He started accepting he used Eugene work then more proofs came in of he just changing build.prop n posting as his

Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here

enatefox said:
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I lawl'd.
I don't have enough money for my family, but you can have some. Where's your donate link you hard worker?
tl;dr

enatefox said:
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn man, that site is stupid fast
Im poor and living on the streets but i cant imagine how much work it must've been. Im donating to u

AnderWeb said:
The problem is NOT just using other people work with/without permission...
The problem is cheating the users to get more donations:
Example:
-DevA: Oh, i've been 3 nights compiling the code for you all!!!!
-Users: Ohhh, thankyou, gonna donate for your hard work!!!
-DevA: Ok, here you have the link (and the download is from DevB work with a little text-editor touch-up).
That's not the way of doing things (imho)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kingklick developed a fanbase. If they donated is that a crime? He didn't hold for ransom, he just released work without due credit, perhaps mostly someone else's work (havent seen evidence) and hey I put a paper out last term without my complete bibliography done because I was so excited to get it out and I was going away for a week...I finished it off over the break and put it out when I was back, funny that didn't start a war on the internet.
enatefox said:
sorry but no. the proper way is
devA: "i took all of jubeh's work and 'optimized a text file' and uploaded it, pretty awesome right?"
you: "cool story bro"
devA: "i need a new phone"
you: "im poor but wth if you keep not making your own work and ask for donations"
devA: "ya rly"
you: "maybe i should've donated to the guy that made this all and not the one that file pushed the wifi files over... =("
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like how you're not using any form of personal attack in discussing this issue...give me an example of when kingklick asked asked for donations...theyre just appreciated. And hell did Jubreh give credit to ALL the people who helped him...Linus Torvalds etc? No, so we are all in part imperfect for not giving 'full credit'...call me anal or not.
Daneshm90 said:
If King put in the same amount of effort HazzBazz put in to creating this thread/writing that ever so long first post, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But really, did we need another thread on this topic ? I lost track but theres been atleast 10+ threads discussing this and all resulting in a lock/user under investigation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of them were philosophical...Ive just finished my second year on joint honours in Philosophy so I find it interesting...and it's not exactly an effort to pile out this when I did it all through term time anyway.
charnsingh_online said:
It's not winrar but winzip Get ur facts right.
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LOL I guess that makes me an invalid...nice
charnsingh_online said:
We r talking bout crediting the work of the community. If u do something spending day n night on expecting nothing but some respect or credit for ur work u get angry in ur language doing 1 month job n not getting paid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well uhhhh no its not because you expect to be paid for your job, and in fact you have legal rights ...open source developing is COMPLETELY different
charnsingh_online said:
I would recommend u all try contributing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True yeah we should all try it...I'm hoping to do computer science post-grad if I get a first...but we dont all have the time or the expertise. I do some file pushing for myself, but I dont release it because if I did (despite getting my roms running fast and to my liking) I'd get slated by some snooty coders and fanboys.
charnsingh_online said:
before writing such justifications n flames n more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nb. see lack of flaming...
charnsingh_online said:
It was their internal decision. There was no influence whatsoever
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Click to collapse
Try twitter.com and look at a lot of members of Cyanogenmob's (still sticking by that, will use that in non-derogatory circumstances, still revelling in the typo!) tweets.
And hey if kingklick can deliver to the end users then there's no use slagging him off...youre equally insulting anyone that thought his roms were good. His slide rom has so much positive feedback for instance.

JAguirre1231 said:
I lawl'd.
I don't have enough money for my family, but you can have some. Where's your donate link you hard worker?
tl;dr
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Daneshm90 said:
Damn man, that site is stupid fast
Im poor and living on the streets but i cant imagine how much work it must've been. Im donating to u
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yay mock donators now too.

HazzBazz, since you're gonna be like this here goes:
We all know the kangers. They're everywhere from your local grocer to the bus driver. Yes, kangers live peacefully among us. What you didn't know is that the real issue, for me at least, is that when I had my old Windows phone w/Android ported on it, we would bust our asses off (look at the Vogue thread) and people would micro-manage or "release" our work as theirs. Basically we would bust our asses off for free (never have I ever asked for a donation nor have I received a single penny for my time) and these people would zip it up and host it on their own site and build a fan base.
Ok so what right? well the people that post in those threads then have bugs to report. who do they report them too? the guy that said he made the ROM-- not us. he says "lolz i don't know guys" then we fix it then he gets thanked. then, he gets the donation. it pisses me off and I never got paid. imagine the unemployed devs out there.
You can at least see my point, right?

F'sure. Hence why I dont release anything. But to you guys kangers are pests. I do not doubt that kangers should be policed. However the credit issue is something which is neglected at a small level by everyone, so no one is perfect...and the great thing about a big site like xda is that most kangers on other websites have tiny fanbases.
I respect your work because of its own credence, and plagiarism will sure as hell piss anyone off who puts time into things, but we must remember that these are donations, given freely. I think we should do more to inform the 'end users' than ban and drive away devs who deliver what some users want...albeit with some undue credit (inform..allow the end users to make informed decisions).

HazzBazz said:
Kingklick developed a fanbase. If they donated is that a crime? He didn't hold for ransom, he just released work without due credit, perhaps mostly someone else's work (havent seen evidence)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will stop you there as the rest of what you say is boring.
Oh and use the search button or cache on google to find(as you call it) evidence
Have a Nice Day

If you like my work, buy bill gates a stuffed penguin.

Love it yeah. Your logical, fair and anticipatory argument leaves me speechless.
'Rest of what you say is boring'...darn I'm upset and speechless...that hurts. It's like Primary school bullies here, only fails.
With regard to 'haven't seen evidence'...I wasn't saying kingklick did or did not do that or this...Im simply saying I (personally) havent seen the evidence (not because it doesn't exist or does exist), but ultimately Kingklick was found guilty of using someone else's work without saying please and thankyou, and was hence driven away from us.

I will be hated on, but I don't care. Bring the King back. I love his Desire Sense UI ROM's.

[REQUIRED BY ALL] YOU ALL BETTER READ...NOW!!!

This is gonna be a book post, so grab a drink, sit down & READ THE WHOLE THING!
Okay, I was a happily retired moderator with little time for babysitting & hand holding, but after nearly two decades of being involved with mobile development from Palm to the device & OS that really started this (Blue Angel PPC2002/PPC2003/PPC2003SE) I will be damned if I am going to let ANYONE ruin the major development repository for what is arguably the best device HTC has made to date. Yes, it was also the worst marketed & whomever handled the marketing plan for the Holiday Series should be selling used cars (Not that there's anything wrong with that, they were just obviously out of their league with the Vivid), however I digress.
I cook roms, I tweak things & talk & have help fix issues for more chef's than I can count. I don't do public releases & I stopped doing custom builds for Senior Members a long time ago. I am here purely for the advancement of mobile development, to learn & to help those that truly take the time to learn.
First things first, this is a development thread. If you are not a developer (I'm not, not really) you must realize that we are working with Alpha's, Beta's & sometime code & data from completely different device manufacturers. This means that there is a certain amount of inherent risk envolved, ALWAYS. This is evidenced & acknowledged by every single person that DECIDED to ignore the warnings issued by HTC as well as the developers here & agreed to the terms when they unlocked their device. "Unlocking your device is DANGEROUS & may VOID your warranty."
I own several devices, as do the former Dev's of this sub-forum. The reason we all are, or were, here is because we all agreed that despite HTC's fumble with the device, it is a fresh design from the rubberized slabs & plastic toys we've seen lately & the device is truly a powerhouse when configured correctly. None of us have to develop, not for the public, and for those that do, I can tell you it's not for the money nor the fame. If it was for fame the folks that left wouldn't be working from blog space & small sites. Sure, there are always glory hounds, but the Developers in Vivid are about the pursuit of perfection, nothing more. Roms are not made by a single person, many have a hand in adding or modifying portions of a rom. This means that when you slam or disrespect a chef or rom, you are telling six or more people that you do not appreciate their work. There will always be difference of opinion, but when that occurs, I expect you to handle it like a man (or woman) & use the Personal Message system this site offers. Even in those cases, I demand no less than respect & civility when communicating & you all agreed to that when you registered here at XDA. Failure to do so CAN & WILL BE GROUNDS FOR A BAN OF APPROPRIATE LENGTH.
Now, I am not a new Mod & XDA has seen fit to call me back to active duty as a Global Moderator, not a forum moderator, & that alone should tell you how frelled the vivid section has become. I am not here to power trip, don't want to ban anyone & hate cleaning useless posts from threads. But I have agreed to do just that until we can all become a happy family
I am working on getting all the dev's back here that left as well as getting some support from some of the more populated forum threads. This will be more & more important as fragmentation goes away & Android becomes more unified. ICS is a step in that direction, Android 5.0 will almost be there completely.
You may not know it yet, but HTC knows they built a great device in the Holiday line & we have already seen ICS release roms for the US AT&T variant. They went & integrated beats & discussion is taking place about a possible Sense 4.0 version for the Holiday. Not a kanged version, but a true to goodness OEM complete with source code & all. While most other devices are still working with leaked versions & test betas, we have an honest to goodness Release version of ICS with some already even getting OTA updates as well. The Vivid is one of a handful of devices that can more than adequately run the same software versions as the newly unveiled One Series, only the Vivid doesn't look like a Sensation mated with a Flyer. I know most of the developers that left, some more than others & I am working on bringing them back to the XDA table. You see, when a developer leaves we get fragmentation. We also usually lose a lot of work from other rom team members, themers, coders, tweakers, hackers, kernel builders, etc...
It would be rather simple for a good Sensation developer to get us a great recovery, provide us with pointers on things they have found with getting ICS to run smoothly as they have been working with api 15 for longer than most Vivid dev's. Unfortunately, they see the Vivid forum as the red headed bastard stepchild of XDA & right now we are. Winter is over & never before have I seen so many developers fky away like a flock heading back north. They all left or are on the fence about leaving. That says something. It's not one high maintenance chef whining & leaving. It is a whole group of Dev's & the supporting members from all over the world leaving. That tells me something is broken, seriously broken & that you as Vivid forum participants have failed the developers & the community. We are broken & need to fix ourselves & learn to police ourselves to become whole again. Do you like stock roms? are you 100% satisfied with whomevers rom you are using? I hope the answer is yes, because unless we pull together & make changes you are gonna be stuck with what you have. Sure, more cooks will emerge. But every rom team member is exceptional at certain things & without them future roms will be lacking in certain areas.
At any rate I digress. Many of you know me. I am honest & fair. I am here, & XDA agreed, as a Hail Mary, to properly support the forum & to try a save the Vivid section from failing. The number one rule here from now on is: Be courteous, respectful & honorable; and if you can't do that....I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance & furious anger those who would attempt to poison our developers & destroy my forum.
THIS IS YOUR WARNING: I am an American, so Baseball is my countries pastime, right? Just like baseball I am immediately instituting a three strikes policy. Each strike will incur penalty on a progressive scale ending with me petitioning to permanently ban you if needed. And be advise that if you post useless or negative to development threads, expect them to be deleted. Just be smart & always take a minute to think things thru before posting & doing irreparable damage. Words are like currency, you can always save them & they'll be there later if needed, but let them burn a hole in your pocket & spend them to soon...You're broke & there's no getting them back.
Now I am stickying this thread & will be leaving it open for a short while. I am doing this to give you a chance to kindly ask the dev's that left to come back & where appropriate make amends or apologize for any personal attacks that were made publicly. If you wrote it where everyone could read it, you should have the fortitude to make it right publicly. If not, then I again refer you to the Personal Message utility provided to you by XDA.

Nicely written.
+1 on bringing back the Devs

Please come back This forum wouldn't be anywhere near as inventive and informative if we didn't have our devs.
Excellent post as well

Im glad to see you stepping in and trying to help the other mods get a handle on things.
I love our phone just like most of the other users here, and have been dissapointed with the state of our forum for the last few weeks. I know the dev who left are still interested in our device as they took their roms elsewhere. Maybe with these current event they will consider coming back. We can only hope, XDA has been a great repository of roms and the help we might need with them. Lets not fragment our resources anymore then it already is.

All I can say is WOW that was greatly written!!
You know what really sucks I have been a member for what i consider to be a long time, I have flashed 1000s of rom's on I don't how many phones and read probably millions of posts! This site is my addiction I read it every day. And over the last couple of months it has just gotten horrible, ridiculous and childish on both sides the noobs and the Dev's! Now DONT GET ME WRONG!! I love and admire everyone who develops, cooks and contributes to the forum. I admit I could never deal with all crap that some noobs and some not so noobs! It is not only this forum it seems to be wide spread even down to the scamming going on at the market place!!! It has honestly made me not want to come to XDA which really sucks.I have all ways looked at XDA as one of the best community's/families i have ever worked with. Just think about how many country's, languages,class,s of life white collar,blue collar and every where in between!!! Just like any family/community you have problems and you find way's to work through the hard times and it makes you stronger so I just plead to all the Developers to try to work whit us. Even if you just post your work and then just have a question and answer sec. and let the community answer the questions. Im just saying there has to be a solution!!
Okay I'm done Rambling!! Thank You to the Mods to for trying to hold it all together!! OK now i'm done!

Wow, it's good to hear something positive around here. You might this sections savoir.

WOW! Great post, thank you very much!
I think we ALL want to run the latest and greatest Android version on the best possible ROM ever on our beloved Holiday. Most are anxious about it and, at the same time, do not want to brick their expensive phones. This being said, this shouldn't be a motivation for ANYONE to bash on the developers.
Like a lot of people, I bought my HTC Raider knowing that, at that time, the development wasn't too far. I was glad to see dev's coming in the Raider/Vivid/Holiday/Velocity family. I was friggin' happy when I saw the first ROM available for my phone! I also flashed at my own risk, knowing I was maybe scarifying my $600 CAD phone.
I, as a relatively new comer, learned from it: do not ask questions that you can easily find answers for by searching the forum. While this is not the (only) reason why so many devs have left, I would like to apologize for my few n00b questions that I may have asked previously. I learned from it and will now properly search before asking.
PLEASE, let's put these few problems aside and let's be a big nice community once again!
I hope we'll see devs back here once again!

This is my first HTC since buying my HTC Dream back in the infancy of android and I was saddened to see how things have turned on this board.
For every Samsung and LG device I have owned there has always been a thriving community of people who have an understanding and work together. However none have ever had the same feeling when I owned an HTC and was part of the community that made the Dream(G1) what it is, an icon. I so wish to be apart of something like that again with this, arguably the best HTC device, as GSLEON3 put it and would love to make it the next big thing.
I understand if the Devs don't come back but I certainly hope they do. There is a lot of work for us to get done and we really need all the amazing talented individuals we can get.

I agree and its getting old visting 20 sites
Xda should be a place where devs can release there work and the community can help each other out not bark at the devs and chase them out, a place where everyone can contribute in one way or another

come at me bro said:
I agree and its getting old visting 20 sites
Xda should be a place where devs can release there work and the community can help each other out not bark at the devs and chase them out, a place where everyone can contribute in one way or another
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think That that should become our mission statement "a place where everyone can AND SHOULD contribute in one way or another"

This is nice,
well said GSLEON3, i'm happy to see this.
i've been around xda for a while and had my share of phones and not a single one wasn't modified in a way shape or form from xda so when i picked up a vivid 2 weeks ago, it was my first choice but i'm stuck with at&t for now and besides the inspire 4g it's the only other decent phone that fits my needs and wants and regardless of how heavy it is, it's worth it. I was so disappointed and sad, mainly so sad when i saw what was happening, and by tuesday night i was like this isn't gona work for me, i'm gona be stuck with the stock gb rom or stock ics which i can't stand, i just wanted a fully functioning runnymed port but i was disappointed that the bootloader can only be unlocked through htcdev which then voids my warranty while i didn't have that issue with all the previous phones so i never hesitated to root, flash recovery and the roms of my choice. titanium and nandroid backups were like my best non human friends lol. when all this started happening and pretty much everyone was gone, i was like this isn't gona work, saw a report in the portal for a sense port to the nexus s one for ics and one for gb that had almost everything working, so i figured let me see how much i can buy a nexus s for and found a really good deal so i bought it the next day and put my vivid up for sale, i havent sold it yet, and i've been coming around to see if anything has changed, and now that it has i might reconsider and keep it, sell the nexus s and hopefully things get rolling again and we can all have the vivid the way we want. so sorry for making this even longer than i anticipated but hopefully the devs will see this and do come back, and that we do get help from other devs and new ones, i mean having phones like the hd2, mytouch 4g inspire 4g, sensation, the forums on those are filled, even the nexus s i can't keep or find a rom that i like, there r just so many options left and right so i hope that the vivid will become like that soon and yeah i dunno call me crazy or something but like i said earlier, i would be very happy if bootloader can be unlocked without htcdev that is relockable with no trace and to have a fully working gb rom with sense 3.5 like the runnymed, i couldn't be happier with the phone like that. I know there is the holiraider and it looks pretty good but i just don't know if i'm ready to take the plunge for just 1 potential rom, so hope all goes well and things develop but this has so much potential so i think i'm gona hold on to the vivid for now and see this thing come back to normal and flourish

Thank you for the breath of fresh air of logic that has come back to this forum. Sadly, I have been hesitant to visit this forum because of all the drama that has occurred as of late about the development of a better rom for our devices.
As you said, there is a reason we all purchased this device over others and it's well clear that there needs to be more work done for it by those who have the skills to do so.

Well said, although this may have been posted a little to late.
I hope that the dev here does continue, but it is looking bleak!
thanks

Very nice write up / read, I'm new to XDA and android altogether. I think this a great device and the few ROMS I've flashed had little or no issues. The work the DEV's have put into these is incredible to say the least. I would love to see all this mess cleared and bring the Vivid development back on track to unleash the full potential that it really possesses.

..

Thank you for this post. I've been more of a xda lurker for the longest time (on other phone forums) and I was happy to be getting in on the sort of ground floor of development for the vivid.. I walked away for a month to take care of some life items and I came back hoping to see some big improvements, instead there is just a load of closed dev threads. It's sad to see that few people not acting civil put things where we are today.
I really hope you can help bring some sanity back to this sector and with that sanity maybe some of the devs will be back too.

superb article. thanks for the great post. something needed to be said!i would imagine that with 4,000,000+ users were gonna have trolls, so i hope the trolls migrate to your post

Thank You!
There is yet hope, Also as stated by the OP, We all did agree to treating people with respect. This is a huge community with all levels of users from Devs and folks that build awesome things to others just starting out with their 1st smartphone (Simple rule, think before you post). This device line could become great. Please let's all do what we can to help this along.
Cheers
BR

Excellent post, I appreciate the time you took to write it, I wish reading it were a requirement of joining the XDA site. I've been flashing roms since I had an HTC Touch Diamond. I confess to being a flashaholic and my worst fear is to lose access to XDA and it's excellent developers because of the rude and immature members that I see regularly. So many don't bother to read and feel they are entitled to the work that the devs do for free.

All I can say is this is awesome, nice to see someone taking the time to help the vivid dev section.
I so miss the help and work by Pirateghost and Wild Child, and whom ever else was contributing.
While i left for only 2 weeks to setup another phone to use, i still have my raider ready and free to help debug and test as needed. Please don't allow a few bad apples to ruin it for the rest of us.
And if I may, maybe we as xda members can share in the task of keeping the forum in check.
EX: see an inappropriate post, flag it for a moderator to address it.
As for GSLEON3, thanks for taking the time to address the forum. hats off to you.

Users and the OSI Layer 8 / help the people who're helping you

Hello xda,
I want to talk about all the fine users out there. They are the people who make our software alive by installing and using it. They are also the essence of every market out there by giving feedback and rating apps to make it easier for everyone to see good apps in a top list, but some of them are (yes, not all, there are also a lot of fine guys and girls out so, thank you!): the people who make me wonder if they should have a smartphone already!
I mean, I'm a developer for several years now, I'm into android developing for straight a year now and for the time I've seen so much c**p some users posted on apps which just aren't right. One time I've had a chat with a guy who had a problem with my app. Of course I helped him by looking into the source. After a couple of minutes I couldn't find any bugs so I've asked him which rom version he used. It turned out, that he was using his own crappy compiled version of gingerbread.
So instead of voting an app with one or two stars, leaving a no-brain-comment or behave like a teenage mutant monkey, you all should give the developer constructive feedback, like which rom do you use or which android version (especially in the root-tools category), so both sides of the ecosystem can take profit of it. At least use a working rom!
It seems like the audience should take a "how do I give proper feedback"-tutorial instead of a "how do I use this app?" - Introduction (but I guess that’s the problem with b2c software relationships. If you just make a little, single mistake, you'll get the bill multiple times for it).
This has to be said. I don't want to offend somebody but there are some people who aren't nice to developers as like the developers are to them.
So, respect the devs out there which are working in the spare time for you to develop nice applications and help 'em
Cheers!

I have to agree!

Thank you sir

PSX Team's departure from XDA and what it means

I for one, am extremely disappointed in regard to the fact that the devs behind PSX (Pure Speed eXperiment ROM) have left XDA and are going private. If you wish to see exactly why, head over to the now closed thread in OAD, but basically they've resorted to deserting their presence in the Nexus 5 forums due to disrespect put forth by us, the users.
This is a significant wake up call for our community. Now obviously not all of us have been disrespectful, at least the mature majority of us. But, there are many people who have, will continue to be to not only these developers but to all of them.
I'd like to remind those select people of why you are WRONG in every sense of the word by being disrespectful in any matter towards these wonderful developers here at XDA and beyond.
They share *FREE* software that they have spent HOURS upon HOURS on developing not only for themselves but for everyone at absolutely no cost.
Obviously some may provide opportunities to donate monetarily but 99% of the time this is optional.
(Although I do encourage donating and buying their paid apps)
To be ungrateful and simply acting like a whiny brat towards them is unacceptable!
If you experience any bugs, quirks, or anything you don't like in their software; go about reporting these things in a respectful, mature manner in their respective threads, or by PM.
If you can't do that, then simply do not use their software and revert back to stock! It's that simple.
So to end off, thank you Team Speed for your wonderful ROM and kernel that you have provided and will continue to provide to your core user base privately. You all will be missed dearly here on good ol' XDA. And to every other developer, do know that many of us appreciate your hard work, do not be discouraged and please continue to provide your awesome ROMs, kernels, themes, mods, apps and so on.
-Anthony
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Actually for a thread that encouraged off topic discussion their thread was pretty good, people mostly talking about whatever and it seemed pretty happy. I would see people ask about features, but they weren't demanding anything there. The last few pages were of people not wanting the ROM to go, and people donating money...which looks a little suspect since they made an announcement of leaving and left the thread open for a while.
If you really can't live without that ROM try using Purity and you'll be fine.

Smatter, u getty no invitey?

Personally, I think the whole deal says more about the people who left, not the people here.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

^this! For now Purity works for me... plenty of awesome N5 roms!

lol devs do this all the time until they figure out people aren't downloading there shiz then they "surprise" everyone with a return and use it as a threat... basic psychology
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

They'll be back sooner or later... else their stuff will become extinct
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Hehe. No idea what happened but Op is right. You guys are self entitled jerks.
You guys act like devs are magical fairies who seize to exist if no one believes in them...or in this case, downloads their roms.
Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

Could someone link the offending posts from that thread. I can't really find any.

nyyankees1237 said:
They share *FREE* software that they have spent HOURS upon HOURS on developing not only for themselves but for everyone at absolutely no cost.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not going to pretend every dev here works altruistically, that their work isn't documented and categorized into a work portfolio for future employment opportunities. I can write up a very persuasive essay showing how the devs should be grateful that they're gaining access to free tools and a free test bed to sharpen their skills: whereas in other industries, would cost a lot to even put it through trials. But that's not the point there. The point is that these people(devs) are opportunity-seekers that happen to have a goal that benefits us, the end-users where money doesn't have to exchange hands. Ask Steve Kondik what opportunities he was afforded as a result of his community-work.
These people definitely work hard and that alone deserve acknowledgement, but let's not pretend this was not a mutual business relationship. Do what one has to do in order to sooth the ethical side of this, but end of the day gains and losses all around. Where one team closes up shop, another one opens up to make a name for themselves. (Purity over PSX)
For the lost: the major discussion started here

Not to justify ignorance and rudeness, but the devs need the xda community as much as the xda community needs them. You really think that sharing a rom between friends will get the rom to a stable state anytime soon? Hell most of the roms shared on xda have thousands of users and they are still bugged...
If the dev wants his rom in a anywhere near useful state, then he needs the large pool or tests and bug reports that the whole xda community can provide, simple as that.

tylerdurden83 said:
Not to justify ignorance and rudeness, but the devs need the xda community as much as the xda community needs them. You really think that sharing a rom between friends will get the rom to a stable state anytime soon? Hell most of the roms shared on xda have thousands of users and they are still bugged...
If the dev wants his rom in a anywhere near useful state, then he needs the large pool or tests and bug reports that the whole xda community can provide, simple as that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol.

finalhit said:
lol.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Laugh all you want, but altho I haven't had the urge to develop a rom yet, I can tell you that this is exactly like it went when I was the lead developer of one of the most used world of warcraft addons. You get (at times) stupid questions by lazy people, rude comments, etc, but without the reach of the wide community that debugs stuff it'd have not gotten anywhere. Hell even Google, Apple etc release software full of bugs that us the more experienced users find out and report back to them for fixing, you really think that a handful of developers can do better?

tylerdurden83 said:
Laugh all you want, but altho I haven't had the urge to develop a rom yet, I can tell you that this is exactly like it went when I was the lead developer of one of the most used world of warcraft addons. You get (at times) stupid questions by lazy people, rude comments, etc, but without the reach of the wide community that debugs stuff it'd have not gotten anywhere. Hell even Google, Apple etc release software full of bugs that us the more experienced users find out and report back to them for fixing, you really think that a handful of developers can do better?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am also a software developer. And I get what you're saying. You need your tester base to represent your entire user base to account for. use cases you might not see because you don't use the software that way.
This is also true for Roms. And that's where your analogy breaks. The only reason a Dev would need the community to test his ROM is to ensure that the rom works for the use cases of the community.
If all a Dev wanted was to make the ROM work for himself only, then he can test the feature himself. You should probably know, an average user is not skilled enough to be a constructive tester. A Dev would have an easier time testing for bugs himself for features he does use rather than chasing false flags by unskilled users.
To sum up, the involvement of the community in the rom building process is a predicated on the devs desire to make the ROM work for everyone. It is not a service everyone provides to the Dev.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

finalhit said:
This is also true for Roms. And that's where your analogy breaks. The only reason a Dev would need the community to test his ROM is to ensure that the rom works for the use cases of the community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you look at rom like Purity (on gnex I've been using it since forever), 99% of the changelog bug fixes were reported by users, not the author himself. Whether those were bugs on features that the author wasn't using at the time, or didnt have enough time to debug himself, cause afterall this is a "night job", etc, etc is irrelevant really. In the end the author himself will benefit from a more stable, less battery draining, filled with more features that his users came up with, whatever, rom.

tylerdurden83 said:
If you look at rom like Purity (on gnex I've been using it since forever), 99% of the changelog bug fixes were reported by users, not the author himself. Whether those were bugs on features that the author wasn't using at the time, or didnt have enough time to debug himself, cause afterall this is a "night job", etc, etc is irrelevant really. In the end the author himself will benefit from a more stable, less battery draining, whatever rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not irrelevant. It is exactly my point.
A weed is any plant that you don't want in your garden. If 99 percent of fixes in that ROM is user reported, it means the Dev was nice enough to go to those users' gardens and pull out their weed for them.
If a Dev doesn't have that plant in his garden, then classifying it as a weed or not is moot to the Dev. (This is a very apt methaphor but I can sense I'm explaining it poorly)
Any bugs the Dev didn't know about, its because its not pertinent to their use case. So they're doing the community a favor by fixing bugs that doesn't really matter to them, not the other way around.
If all a Dev wanted to do was to create a garden with only the plants he likes, then that's something he can do all on his own. The fact that a Dev would invite others to his garden, and take suggestions on which plants he should have is again a service he is providing to the community, not the other way around.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

finalhit said:
Any bugs the Dev didn't know about, its because its not pertinent to their use case. So they're doing the community a favor by fixing bugs that doesn't really matter to them, not the other way around.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some, but not all. If after release x.y the rom randomly exits out of loudspeaker it might mean that the author doesnt use loudspeaker ever, or simply that he didnt use it yet before another user did. It doesnt change the fact that maybe sooner or later he'll need to use it, and he'll be surely happier to be able to use it when that circumstance presents itself, rather than having an unknown bug preventing him.
Also sometimes bugs arent easy to reproduce so user input and data like logcats can speed up the resolution process a lot.
A ton of users are reporting and trying to pinpoint the battery drains in 4.4 xposed framework, I'm sure that the author will love his own phone's battery lasting longer.

tylerdurden83 said:
Some, but not all. If after release x.y the rom randomly exits out of loudspeaker it might mean that the author doesnt use loudspeaker ever, or simply that he didnt use it yet before another user did. It doesnt change the fact that maybe sooner or later he'll need to use it, and he'll be surely happier to be able to use it when that circumstance presents itself, rather than having an unknown bug preventing him.
Also sometimes bugs arent easy to reproduce so user input and data like logcats can speed up the resolution process a lot.
A ton of users are reporting and trying to pinpoint the battery drains in 4.4 xposed framework, I'm sure that the author will love his own phone's battery lasting longer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If the developer of that mod, Is having the same problems, I guarantee you he is the most able to diagnose that problem.
The most likely scenario of course it's that he's trying to pull weed out of someone else's garden.
Running logcats is not testing. At the end of the day. The devs logs cats are equally useful, and ultimately, the dev has to sift through those logs.
Would you ever hire an unskilled person to be your qa? That would be horrible. You're gonna basically tell the guy everything he needs to do to the point that you're better off ding it yourself.
The only reason a dev would need others logs is to help then pull out weeds from other people's gardens.
Time for me to sleep but for anyone to claim that devs equally need users for a free product that they are providing is a laughable statement.
Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

If you claim that the xda devs require users to give them feedback and bug reports, how many of them are actually useful and does not sound something like "i flashed the ROM and it is very slow", "I get blablabla wakelocks" without any other details?
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

This is why there are mods. Devs don't have to deal with the sh1t throwing. They'll live.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app