Related
edit: Just found out it is is ALREADY DONE! Well, that was sort of a lie, but it is already possible, and will hopefully evolve into the easiest way of testing ROMs ever. ROM-whores, enjoy! Changed the topic title to spread the happy news. Go give him useful feedback and coding help!
While I am not as big a ROM-slut as many other, I do like to check things out. The Eclair-ROM by manup456 is high on my list now, for example, and while I'm swapping ROMS, I would like to test whats happening with the Hero ones.
And one thing strikes me: It would be extremely convenient to be able to launch the ROM right from the sd card. unpacking the ROM-zip to a partition on the sd card, and then launch it directly from there, would be much easier than having to flash it to the phones flash. And also, people would avoid to wear the poor nand flash out. Being able to boot from SD would also allow us to have more than one ROM installed, and switching at reboot.
Have anyone got any idea of how much work this would take? Would the ROM need to be customized for this? (I hope not.) An more importantly: Does anyone with any coding skills like the idea, and care to give it a shot? I know the OpenMokmo-projects used U-boot, and some Debian derivative projects uses Qi. I have no idea, however, if there is a small, moderate or huge amount of work to make those work on the Dream/with Android, or if customizing tthe existing is easier (if at all possible).
While this can be setup, it would require alot of work, and all devs would have to change the format of the boot.img they are using. So... probably not going to happen
naguz said:
While I am not as big a ROM-slut as many other, I do like to check things out. The Eclair-ROM by manup456 is high on my list now, for example, and while I'm swapping ROMS, I would like to test whats happening with the Hero ones.
And one thing strikes me: It would be extremely convenient to be able to launch the ROM right from the sd card. unpacking the ROM-zip to a partition on the sd card, and then launch it directly from there, would be much easier than having to flash it to the phones flash. And also, people would avoid to wear the poor nand flash out. Being able to boot from SD would also allow us to have more than one ROM installed, and switching at reboot.
Have anyone got any idea of how much work this would take? Would the ROM need to be customized for this? (I hope not.) An more importantly: Does anyone with any coding skills like the idea, and care to give it a shot? I know the OpenMokmo-projects used U-boot, and some Debian derivative projects uses Qi. I have no idea, however, if there is a small, moderate or huge amount of work to make those work on the Dream/with Android, or if customizing tthe existing is easier (if at all possible).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I want to start off by saying that I've rooted my N1 and tried several cooked roms including CM's and the Modaco version. I keep searching for a reason to use a custom rom. Every time I do, I end up reverting back to stock. I just don't get the purpose. I understand cooking Windows Mobile roms to get newer OS versions that included new features and stuff, and cooking in new updated apps... I've searched and searched looking for some solid reason to stay on a custom rom, but I can't find one.
The Nexus One is just awesome and pretty clean as it is out of the box. It seems like when I use a cooked rom, it's more bloated then stock and I "try" to make it work as my stock rom did, with same apps and homescreen setup (I like Launcher Pro/Dialer One). I know some of the roms include "newer kernels" which I'm guessing is like a newer build but I don't see anything really that "pops" out. I understand rooting the device to gain full access to the system. But you can root a stock rom.
I also understand porting different systems like Desire/Hero/whatever. But aside from cosmetics, rooting, overclocking, and undervolting... why use a custom roms?
And mods, I've searched and searched, and read and read, I've seen the stickies. I'm looking for specifics.
player911 said:
aside from cosmetics, rooting, overclocking, and undervolting... why use a custom roms?.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you summed it up pretty well. cosmetics, rooting, overclocking, and undervolting.
For me, custom roms is worth it JUST for trackball wake up, and unlock, on the nexus. I hated having to use the power button way at the top.
For some, its so you can use an entirely open source phone, free from proprietary google apps.
The great chefs put a ton of thought into all the additions they use, create, and implement. Things that save battery life, improve user experience, or fix bugs / quirks.
There isn't a huge demand for ROM's for the N1 because we're at the forefront of Android right now. We're the one's with 2.2. We have flash. Everyone else is getting ports of what we get stock. This will continue for the foreseeable future, until Google selects another handset to be its in-house testing model, or launches Nexus Two/Dev Phone 4 (counting N1 as 3). Once we're obsolete, then, and only then, will you see the modding community pick up and you'll see big reasons to go with custom ROM's.
CM has the latest android code that is publically availalble. (He just synced code today). The little features that are missing are enough for me. Things like invisible lock screen, to the newly added gestures in the music app(great for driving).
If you're not a tweaker by nature then stock OS code will suffice. Me? I can't get enough of the new little things that add up to an overall great package.
/cm nutriding
Because it's fun.
720p recording.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=698287
Titanium Backup and N1 Torch
ATnTdude said:
There isn't a huge demand for ROM's for the N1 because we're at the forefront of Android right now. We're the one's with 2.2. We have flash. Everyone else is getting ports of what we get stock. This will continue for the foreseeable future, until Google selects another handset to be its in-house testing model, or launches Nexus Two/Dev Phone 4 (counting N1 as 3). Once we're obsolete, then, and only then, will you see the modding community pick up and you'll see big reasons to go with custom ROM's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea that makes sense.
I just feel that custom roms are more bloated then stock. I've been looking into trying one of the "Super Clean OC/UV Rooted" roms. But then again I think the stock OS is just the Bee's Knee's.
What is "bloated"?
There are zillions of reasons for custom ROMs, visual and functional:
Apps2SD
USB and WiFi tethering
Locales
OpenVPN
Dropbear, Bash, etc (better Linux experience)
Trackball colors, notifications
Torch (using flash LED as flashlight)
Deep system options made visible / changeable, lots of customization options
Most of Froyo features were implemented in custom ROMs way before Froyo test build.
My setup is VERY far from stock. And I use everything mentioned above. I can't even move to Froyo, because I need Apps2SD to work - overloaded with big apps.
I think that's a great reason..
player911 said:
Yea that makes sense.
I just feel that custom roms are more bloated then stock. I've been looking into trying one of the "Super Clean OC/UV Rooted" roms. But then again I think the stock OS is just the Bee's Knee's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No reason why you can't use Cyanogen's Quick Root + Pershoot's OC/UV Kernel on FroYo to benefit from rcxquake's wonderful modded Flash .apk and watch Hulu. It's obviously not quite as complete as CM 5.0.x (desperately missing trackball wake), and despite having root for some reason I still can't rm -f and pm uninstall com.amazon.mp3.apk from adb shell, but it gets almost everything done for me. The main thing that made FroYo live-able for me was the addition of ogdobber's Black Bar, which I had gotten very used to on CM5. That said, I can't wait for a CM flavor of FroYo...
willverduzco said:
No reason why you can't use Cyanogen's Quick Root + Pershoot's OC/UV Kernel on FroYo to benefit from rcxquake's wonderful modded Flash .apk and watch Hulu. It's obviously not quite as complete as CM 5.0.x (desperately missing trackball wake), and despite having root for some reason I still can't rm -f and pm uninstall com.amazon.mp3.apk from adb shell, but it gets almost everything done for me. The main thing that made FroYo live-able for me was the addition of ogdobber's Black Bar, which I had gotten very used to on CM5. That said, I can't wait for a CM flavor of FroYo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried "adb remount" to remount the System partition in read/write mode first?
Forgive me for the intrusion, but I have a question for you all. Looking at the various threads and screen shots, it appears that most are using a rooted nook rather than honeycomb or froyo; is this accurate?
My story:
I was in Best-buy the other day shopping tablets (Xoom, Galaxy, iPad, etc) and someone was walking by and said "Hey, save money, get a NC." Of course I was like, what? I'm no stranger to Linux, servers, and basic programming but tablets and android is uncharted territory for me. So, after this guy did some basic explaining I was like "half price, and near limitless customization? Yeah thats for me!"
So here I am, been browsing this website for a few days trying to decide how I should go about 'unlocking' my NC. Do I use some sort of root kit to just unlock the 'stock' system? Do I use 'Froyo' on a SD card? What about this honeycomb thing, should I use that?
Like I said, it appears from screenshots most people are still using the basic NC system, that has maybe just been rooted to run apps and such from the market? I'm sorry for sounding dumb, I'm really not, just not sure what route is best for me, or the best choice. I am a fast learner, I just don't want to spend weeks learning something only to realize I was learning the wrong thing for what I need.
What I've gathered so far:
Stock rooted NC - will do fine for most users. Launcher Pro, Pandora, YouTube, browsing, games, gmail, etc. What about GPS? Google Maps?
Froyo - Same as above, some cosmetic differences, bells and whistles only advantage?
Honeycomb - Culmination of the previous two lists?
Insight welcome please?
Signed,
Work in progress.
It may be a little over half the price... But the Nook color is half the speed of the Motorola Xoom. So if you really have the money, I would return the nook color and just get a xoom, you'll be happier with it. If you're looking for just something to surf the net, and play a few games or programs, then the NC is a decent choice.
I use CM7 nightlys. CM7 is in my opinion the best rom, it allows bluetooth support and flash. It can be overclocked to 1190mhz. And has a lot of options for customizations.
HC is limited to a preview sdk build until google decides to let others have the final source, which could be a while... (Motorola Xoom comes with it installed)
Froyo is limited in a lot of regards, and CM7 is far better and offers a lot more support for programs and hardware. That said... Some people feel Froyo is better than CM7, but they're essentially the same underlining OS.
Individuals requirements vary, but since you asked I will give my two cents:
CyanogenMod 7
While it is currently not released as "stable" but only nightly builds, the nightlies are extremely good. Phiremod is based on the nightlies and adds some nice stuff, but is also slightly behind since the nightly has to be released before it can be customized.
The latest is CM7 nightly 32 right now (http://download.cyanogenmod.com/?type=nightly&device=encore) but it changes almost every day.
A Video Test build was just released that has YouTube working in all its glory (? Did I really type that?) so the video issues should be a thing of the past in a few days. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=960537
The same dev has an overclock kernel which gets the cpu up to 1100mhz and adds the interactive governor- http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=925451
And another guy took a great idea and ran with it: adding Tablet Tweaks to CM
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1002000
I generally run the latest nightly with an oc kernel but now that the Tablet Tweaks has made so much progress, my routine is like this:
Flash latest nightly
Flash Tablet Tweaks
Flash OC kernel
Don't let the "nightly" status of CM7 put you off too much- the CyanogenMod team are perfectionists and won't call a rom Stable until it is PERFECT.
Right now the nightlies are better than any fresh install of Windows I have ever seen, for example....
I wouldn't go to honeycomb as a permanent solution now - it is reasonably good but still experimental with problems running full tablet applications.
I'm using Froyo but will switch over to CM7 shortly. At one point, froyo was more stable (two weeks back - things change fast) with working video and flash. CM7 has come along quickly and its time to move on. Having said that - both of these require some fiddling to get working properly. This is not a no-frustration experience - if you are comfortable with sorting out linux-like issues it won't be too bad. Fun if you like tinkering with gadgets.
Rooted stock is stable, adds the open android market to the the stock B&N experience which includes a very nice reader. If you upgrade beyond stock you will lose the reader which has some desireable features like "borrowing a book" in the store, magazines and newspapers. Not working on froyo, cm7, or hc.
I'd agree that cm7 is probably the best compromise at this point - at least for me. You will still be flashing gapps and wondering where certain apps or wallpapers are in the market.
Xoom or galaxy tab actually work (largely) without customization today. Closer to an ipad experience in that it works out of the box. Nook color can largely replicate those functions but you'll do a little work setting it up.
Peter
I would not trade the NC for the Xoom just because the Xoom is so ridiculously overpriced IMO. Personally, I would go with stock rooted. If you find that you are wanting to do something with it that you cannot do on stock rooted, then look for something else like Nookie Froyo or Honeycomb (which is still a little half baked on the NC IMO).
Wonderful advice and well said. Thank you much for everyone's time, I above anyone else know how precious every second is.
'Sorting out linux and tinkering' is exactly on point, I've been doing that very thing for about 12 years now. I like to consider myself an avid enthusiast rather than full throttle geek. Anyway, I think I'll study the route of stock rooted and further my knowledge on full flash before taking that plunge.
That being said, one more question and I'll let you all get back to more important things. I should be right in assuming just follow the steps in this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=872490 or the v3.* thread to fully root the stock NC and have google apps, market, etc up and running? From what I've read, this auto-nooter has pretty much all of it built in already; Gmail, Market, root-kit etc.
PS: Wonderful site, very informative.
Signed,
Work in Progress.
LarcenQ said:
Stock rooted NC - will do fine for most users. Launcher Pro, Pandora, YouTube, browsing, games, gmail, etc. What about GPS? Google Maps?
Froyo - Same as above, some cosmetic differences, bells and whistles only advantage?
Honeycomb - Culmination of the previous two lists?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm in your same boat (I recently started with Nookie Froyo on SD so I can leave the Nook alone, but am just learning what else needs to be done to fix some buggy behavior.)
One thing to understand is that there are multiple versions of Android. The Nook Color still ships with Android 2.1 (Eclair). They are supposed to be pushing out 2.2 (Froyo) in a few days. The Cyanogenmod (CM7) people are using 2.3 (Gingerbread). And the NookieFroyo folks are of course using 2.2. I have no idea what Phiremod is. As expected, the later versions of Android tend to have more features/work better.
The 3.0 version of Android, Honeycomb, is still the most experimental and apparently doesn't work that well with the Nook Color yet. Worse, Google has decided to hold back the latest source code of this "open source" project for now, meaning that only the Xoom can run the thing. But it's the only Android version with true tablet support.
As to GPS,the Nook Color does NOT have a GPS chip, so regardless of Android version you can get GPS coordinates only by rough calculation based on a WiFi database or by tethering to a GPS device or GPS-equipped cell phone.
xdabr said:
I have no idea what Phiremod is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Phiremod is based on CM7 nightlies with some very nice customizations.
Yup -- Xoom overpriced. Unless you've a burning desire to be on the cutting edge, I'd go with the Nook Color and wait out the pricing on Android tablets. They are bound to come down.
Also, a couple of key points:
Barnes & Noble is theoretically going to push an upgrade sometime in April that will include Flash capability and some sort of Market. No details on the market. However if they're smart there will be a host of apps available that we all know will run on the Nook (because we've rooted and downloaded them). This new stock configuration may be all that a lot of people want or need.
If you are determined, however, remember that this forum is like a big toy store and can be confusing. You can run stock internally and dual boot into a fast SD card to run virtually any other configuration. Or, you can flash the internal rom and run most of these variation on the OS internally.
Here's the relevant point: When booting, the Nook Color looks first at the SD drive. That's very cool, because it allows us to do a whole bunch of fun stuff.
I'm currently running rooted stock internally and CM7 (the version with working Bluetooth) off a SD card. Truth be told I typically boot into CM7 because it works so well -- even for reading B&N Nook books. I use a little variation that allows hard key dual booting. There is a brandy new release of CM7 that resolves some video issues and I'll update to that.
However, the CM7 releases do not include the Google stuff, including the Market, so you have to load those via ADB (Android Development Bridge) which means setting up your computer with an Android development environment -- something very doable and free, but it takes some time to get it all working right.
The holy grail is probably Honeycomb, the Android version specifically designed with tablets in mind. There is a development version of Honeycomb that actually works pretty well, but it's not fully fleshed out just yet. I've got it running on a separate SD and it's very cool, but lacks some functionality. Once it's fully developed that will be my daily OS for sure.
One of my wants and needs is to be able to use an external folding keyboard. The only version floating around right now that supports the Nook's built-in Bluetooth (unused by B&N) is a release of CM7 -- and it works. I can use the nifty Freedom Pro keyboard and it's really pretty good -- no excessive lag.
Hopefully that's enough to get you going. I'd say -- given the overwhelming wealth of information on this forum -- keep your Nook stock until after B&N pushes the update. In the meantime, get a good fast SD card and use that to mess with your pick of Android versions offered here. Pick just one and than tunnel down into the forum to work with it at first.
Happy Nooking!
robedney said:
I'm currently running rooted stock internally and CM7 (the version with working Bluetooth) off a SD card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you! I wanted to try this CM7 tonight when I got home, however, I do not want to wipe/tamper with my onboard nook, and everything I've read about CM7 you have to install on internal memory. Is there a link to the instructions on booting CM7 from the sd card?
Thanks in advance!
Signed,
Getting somewhere.
Yup -- I'll track it down. Stay tuned.
Here's a thread that sets up a SD card to run CM7 with working Bluetooth. Read the whole thread before you start (some good simple instructions are in there):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=989637
Be aware that Google stuff and the Market are not included -- you'll have to install those via ADB (and there are full instructions on how to set up and do that on this forum.
Or -- a newer option that looks pretty cool (and avoids having to use ADB to get the Market):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1000957
I think I'll try this on a spare SD card and see how it all works out.
There are hardware differences to consider too.
NC is 7 inch screen, vs 10 inch for XOOM and some other tablet.
Then size and weight.
Also NC doesn't have cameras, the others may have one or two...
And NC doesn't have mic, although bluetooth headset may work.
I am happy with my NC for its price and what I need.
robedney said:
Here's a thread that sets up a SD card to run CM7 with working Bluetooth. Read the whole thread before you start (some good simple instructions are in there):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=989637
Be aware that Google stuff and the Market are not included -- you'll have to install those via ADB (and there are full instructions on how to set up and do that on this forum.
Or -- a newer option that looks pretty cool (and avoids having to use ADB to get the Market):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show....php?t=1000957
I think I'll try this on a spare SD card and see how it all works out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Much obliged! I'll give this a try tonight once I get home from work. God I love mature people instead of 'scr3w yu n00b!'.
Signed,
Getting there.
Just make your of which Stock ROM you have (1.0.0, 1.0.1, 1.1.0). Each Nooter is made specifically for each ROM.
Also, as far as Gapps is concerned, there is no need to use ADB. All of it can be installed easily via ClockworkRecovery. ADB stuff is fun, but not needed to get full blown CM7 w/gapps and everything else.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/archive/index.php/t-1000957.html
just used this for a SD bootable CM7. I'm running rooted 2.1 for daily use and testing out the different options via SD bootable builds. fyi, this also allows the install of google apps without ADB.
HI,
One question for you:
What do you want to use the Nook for mainly?
Toy/Playing/learning/Android Apps/Web/eBooks... CM7 (Nightlies)
eBook reader mainly... Perhaps stock rooted.
Lots of video/Flash? Not sure which, perhaps Froyo. CM7 soon.
Require bluetooth? CM7
One immediate advantage for rooting is access to other eBook reader
applications, such as Kindle.
Don't forget to look at/select a soft button approach that you like,
Android is expecting more than the one button at the bottom. I like
Button Savior from the market, but there are a variety of other solutions.
It is handy to have a bunch of SDcards on hand too, I never seem to have
enough of them. Don't forget that when you move to an internal memory
version of, say, Cyanogenmod7, that you need a SD card for data too.
Good luck, the NC is a fun toy!
Peter
envygreen said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/archive/index.php/t-1000957.html
just used this for a SD bootable CM7. I'm running rooted 2.1 for daily use and testing out the different options via SD bootable builds. fyi, this also allows the install of google apps without ADB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We're in dire need of a single (maintained) collection of all these pre-built SD card images -- is there such a posting?
Hunting through the forum is not as much fun as it seems.
EDIT: Looks like there's a list of ROMs at http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=872003
DOH!
Read post carefully BEFORE replying!
lol
hey guys
so far im loving not being restricted by s-off anymore
i installed mike1986's rom and its great, but theres still too much sense in there for me, i want to try the phone with NO sense whatsoever, is this possible?? (i used no-sense 1.5 to remove as much sense as possible)
basically i want a google nexus s rom, which i will tweak with apps such as go sms etc.
the thing that annoys me is having options that i dont need (eg all the facebook integration in contacts which i wont use, same for gallery) - and so id rather have too few options than too many.
is this something that already exists or is possible? i couldnt find anything over in android development.
thanks
Why not get bloat freezer and freeze out all the crap, if you end up freezing something that causes instability at least you can unfreeze it again (well unless you freeze out something really critical, in which case you will need to revert to a backup).
ill do that, but as well as that i also want the stock gingerbread gallery and contacts apps, for example - as they don't have sense integration.
can anyone advise if theres an obvious reason this hasnt been done?
or if it has can someone point me in the direction of it?
thanks
go port an aosp for it and your done.
reason why it aint done, no tree for the incs has been created which is perfect atm
we are busy with it (heavily testing, attn1 and kali coding like mofo's etc.etc.) for cyanogenmod just wait...
Hello all very long time lurker but am here now for some help. So a few questions and description of what i wish to achieve.
I have a POS iPod touch 4th gen that I have had 2 and half years or something and really want to replace. Also have an Xperia X10 and shortly will have an LG Optimus 2X. The X10 will function for phone duties until the Xperia TX become available in Australia.
Back the the O2X though. Now turning an android phone into a Portable Media Player (PMP) is something I have been wanting to do for a while now. Naturally though this brings up a few things that will not be needed.
For the music front end I will be using Player Pro and Pics and videos will primarily be held and viewed in QuickPic.
The phone will still need to retain wifi and bluetooth capabilities, however I want to fully disable all other forms of connectivity as I will have no need of it and will not be using a sim in the phone as this will be dedicated to music, movies and pics. So does anyone know the best way gor me to go about that?
I will also have a hell of a lot of unused and unwanted apps. I would love to be able to really strip the phone back and free up as much space as possible. Now in the past I have been able to uninstall pre-installed apps from my X10. I am just unsure how to go about it on the O2X. Does anyone know how I would go about completely removing the phone, contacts, calander, stock music, stock gallery and other assorted apps?
I would also need to be using a kernel with the voodoo sound mods for the wolfson DAC. Now I was wondering if there was any recommendations there?
Finally I would also like a recommendation of the most stable ICS based ROM to go with the voodoo kernel. I would like the ROM to also include a modifiable set of notification bar widgets so I can easily turn on and of things like wifi, bluetooth, gps, airaplane mode and adjust brightness. Anyone know of anything that would fit the bill?
Must also come with a working camera app (does not need to has video recording working or panorama just basic camera duties please). Any other suggestions that you may think of feel free to post them.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and hope some of you can help me out here on my project to make an Android PMP out of a great little Android Phone.
Stoner
Note to mods: hope I am posting in the right section, feel free to move it if I am not.
Since connectivity is already built in into the android OS, you can't disable it, but I think keeping your phone in airplane mode all the time should do the trick. Anyway, taking out the sim card already disables all connectivity that involves telecommunications.
If you want to remove system apps, you have to root your phone first. The forum already has so many guides on rooting. Then all you have to do is use any root file manager, go into system/app and delete the apps there. Not everything can be deleted though, some are crucial for the functioning of the phone.
The other way is to download a rom, open the zip and delete everything you don't need that's under system/app and install it. No guarantees that your phone will boot up though, if you happen to hit an app that is crucial for the rom to work. Then you can flash the rom and it's done.
There are many kernels that use voodoo, just find one that fits any rom of your choice.
Finally: ICS roms still have some bugs, seeing that you are going to use it as a PMP, I recommend not upgrading to ICS or later until roms made from LG's sources start popping out. I hear that CM10 (that runs on jellybean) will be released shortly after LG releases their ICS update.
Almost all roms have a camera app, no worries there!
TL;DR Install any rom you'd like that seems to fit the bill. Root your phone, open the particular rom's zip file and remove apps you don't need that are in system/app, flash it to your phone (with recovery mode of course). Flash kernel to your liking.
Looks like LG is no better than Sony when it comes to OS Updates haha
shall look at stock based Rome for now then. Try and find a JB skinned one if possible.
Then play trial and error with what apps I can remove before flashing and which I have to leave and possibly just freeze. New it was something simple but its been a while. I hope I can remove all the basic apps that make it function like a phone otherwise I guess I will make do with freezing and hiding them. Love removing all clutter possible.
Will be waiting to see if CM10 can come along much less buggy than all the CM9 and ICS ROMs that I have looked at. Silly LG hampering the development of ROMs because there isn't an official ICS update to work off and its late 2012 already. Hoping for some good news though with what I have read about SK and them getting ICS.