Just curious who saw these posts on Google+ the other day. Lets discuss.
Steve Kondik - 22 hours ago
The Death of Root
Android 4.3 introduces some new and much needed security features which not only restrict setuid binaries on the system partition (su), but also limit the capabilities of processes. In the current architecture, even if you could get elevated privileges, you can't do anything out of the ordinary. Root in the shell via ADB is all I use, and it still works just fine.
This isn't a problem for me, since I use CM. When there is a situation that I'd need root, I just modify the system to accomodate what I'm trying to accomplish in a secure way. I can understand the desire to have full root on stock ROMs, since you're severely limited in what you can do and there is no provision for making any sort of real changes or improving the architecture.
+Koushik Dutta and +Chainfire are working hard to permit root in some way on 4.3, but I feel that anything done at this point might severely compromise the security of the system and we should start considering better options. Going forward, I'm interested in building framework extensions and APIs into CM to continue to abolish the root requirement.
A few good use cases for root are:
* Firewalls and network software, potentially requiring raw sockets.
* Managing the DNS resolver
* Tweaking various sysfs nodes to control the kernel
All of these can be done without exposing root, and they can be done in a very secure way.
If you're using CM or another custom ROM, what do you actually use root for?
Brought to you by Sprint and the letters GS and the number 4
Steve Kondik - 21 hours ago
An example to go with my previous post on root..
Let's say that I wanted to write an application that would let me block or rate limit network access for other applications. Seems easy, just run "iptables" as root and add some firewall rules. Calling "su iptables ...." and managing the list is easy. The harder, but much better way would be to extend the framework. This also has the side effect of opening this up for other developers to use.
To do this, you need two things:
1. A way to add the rules (which requires root)
2. An API to add the rules
3. Access control to this API
All Android systems run a daemon, "netd", which runs as root and manages various aspects of the network such as tethering and traffic shaping. The framework has a service, appropriately named "NetworkManagementService" which communicates with netd using a simple protocol over a socket. Applications with the right permissions can get a handle to this service using Binder, and control the network without actually needing root.
So to build a firewall API, it's really easy. You put the pieces that require elevated privileges into netd, then add a few methods to the NMS such as "addRule", "deleteRule", and "listRules". You can create and enforce a new permission, "android.permission.MODIFY_FIREWALL_STATE" that applications would require. You can even pop up a "scary" dialog similar to the newish VPNService when something needs it.
Then of course you upload your patches to the CM Gerrit, we iterate a bit, and ship it. If it turns out to be insanely useful, maybe it will go to Android proper.
Now you can write your app and a whole new class of applications that you couldn't do without using the root sledgehammer before. Yeah, it's harder, and you need to learn the system architecture a bit, but the result is much better and more importantly it's not a gaping security hole.
Of course it's possible to write malware that mirrors all of your packets to a remote site without your knowledge using this API, but Android's VPNService is actually more suited to this and it's already part of the framework
I might be exploiting this as an opportunity to sell the ideas behind CM, but I think it's a powerful concept. If your app needs to do something that normally can't be done, you can easily bend the system to your will and do it right.
If it not more root on 4,3 we keep what we got and add
Sent from my SPH-L720 using xda premium
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2376881
I have a nexus 7 and the 4.3 update has already been rooted
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Did you guys read the article or just the title.
Brought to you by Sprint and the letters GS and the number 4
Why? Are the two not related? Or is the title misleading?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Probably because the title says AFTER 4.3
I'm no dev, but I have very little attachment to root. I am required to have it if I want to be able to flash ROM's or custom recoveries or mods or what-have-you, but if all of those things could be accomplished without root, I would do it. The reason its so exploited in the dev community is that there is no other framework to do the things they want to do.
If however they were to work with major devs (like Kondik mentions CM) on expanding frameworks to make ROM's and whatnot take without needing root, I would have no problem with it. Hell, I'd welcome losing the step on every new phone of having to master a new rooting technique. It would also make me contemplate trying an HTC phone, as rooting the EVO 3D put an inordinately bad taste in my mouth.
mattkane21 said:
would also make me contemplate trying an HTC phone, as rooting the EVO 3D put an inordinately bad taste in my mouth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. That phone was such an unbelievable pain in the a$$. The whole process took forever, with the HTC dev unlock and ridiculous "wire trick" to achieve s-off in order to flash custom kernels. Then, once that crap was all done, always having to think about what hboot you're using with what rom. Especially for someone like me who's constantly switching between stock and AOSP, having to flash another hboot all the time is such a freaking hassle. The ironic part is that there are tons of great roms for that phone.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using xda premium
So jn essence what this is saying is after 4.3 there will be no need for root yet we will still have all the benefits of root?
Am I reading this correctly?
shawn1224 said:
So jn essence what this is saying is after 4.3 there will be no need for root yet we will still have all the benefits of root?
Am I reading this correctly?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes in a way. It is kind of looking at a different integration of what is possible without needing root, or why would we really need root when running something like CM. And with the new security features rooting might make your device unsecured.
Brought to you by Sprint and the letters GS and the number 4
Ok cool but would this also pertain to standalone mods/extension or are you talkin code baked into CM only
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
shawn1224 said:
Ok cool but would this also pertain to standalone mods/extension or are you talkin code baked into CM only
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it would work for pretty much any ROM,or could. He is the founder of CM so he talks about it. Many ROMs use CM as a base and build off it though, almost all AOSP ROMs do.
Brought to you by Sprint and the letters GS and the number 4
Related
Hi all
I am reasonably versed in computers, having read Electronic Engineering at uni, but haven't dabbled with unix (Andriod's base O/S?) since - a decade ago.
This is also my first smartphone, as my aging work BB is no good for personal email etc.
I therefore have a range of questions, that I could not find the answer to in the main thread that gregbradley runs or on the next 5 pages of threads. These questions range from the very basic, so please forgive me!
how do you stop free apps installing their advertising engines, or at least access the same information that you permit the app to access (I remember reading privacy issues related to this)
apart from allowing you to tinker with the phone what is the benefit of rooting (which I assme means gaining admin access df. unix)
what are the additional features on the xperia t of the popular customer ROMS and do they alway require rooting to apply?
If you have to apply an earlier firmware to be able to root the phone, what are you loosing (does Sony publish a changelog?) and sure firmware updates tend to be a good thing, so isn't this a problem?
So firstly, is there some documentation I should be reading:
a) about basic good practice on an andriod phone?
b) about the benefits of custom roms
c) about the benefits of rooting, apart from being about to install custom roms?
d) about what are the most common alternative settings ppl make to a stock Xperia T?
many thanks,
icstm
icstm said:
Hi all
I am reasonably versed in computers, having read Electronic Engineering at uni, but haven't dabbled with unix (Andriod's base O/S?) since - a decade ago.
This is also my first smartphone, as my aging work BB is no good for personal email etc.
I therefore have a range of questions, that I could not find the answer to in the main thread that gregbradley runs or on the next 5 pages of threads. These questions range from the very basic, so please forgive me!
how do you stop free apps installing their advertising engines, or at least access the same information that you permit the app to access (I remember reading privacy issues related to this)
apart from allowing you to tinker with the phone what is the benefit of rooting (which I assme means gaining admin access df. unix)
what are the additional features on the xperia t of the popular customer ROMS and do they alway require rooting to apply?
If you have to apply an earlier firmware to be able to root the phone, what are you loosing (does Sony publish a changelog?) and sure firmware updates tend to be a good thing, so isn't this a problem?
So firstly, is there some documentation I should be reading:
a) about basic good practice on an andriod phone?
b) about the benefits of custom roms
c) about the benefits of rooting, apart from being about to install custom roms?
d) about what are the most common alternative settings ppl make to a stock Xperia T?
many thanks,
icstm
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) You must root the phone and install an add blocker
2) A vast amount of extra access that allows you to uninstall unwanted bloatware and generally customise your phone as you want.
3) Custom roms need at least root privilage and a recovery installed. Some roms require an unlocked bootloader as they need a custom kernel to work.
4) After downgrading to root, you can upgrade and keep root, there are plenty of threads about it
The best place to start reading is the all in one thread, its the very first thread in the Q&A section. Posts 2 and 3 explain all you need to know. If you need any further questions answering please ask in that thread.
Greg
EDIT, Just read that you have already seen my thread. Please feel free to ask in that thread if anything is not clear, however, you can also use the search function in order to find answers. Its nice to see new users and people here will be happy to help, especially as you seem to know to ask questions in the Q&A thread, unlike many others
Mental (and virtual) note: post excessive answer tomorrow after a good nights sleep and clear things up which greg did not fully answer, as I think.
Piece of cake.
@schaggo
looking forward to it! :fingers-crossed:
icstm said:
...unix (Andriod's base O/S?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kernel (and some ported tools) only, but of course the philosophy behind the thing. Yes.
how do you stop free apps installing their advertising engines, or at least access the same information that you permit the app to access (I remember reading privacy issues related to this)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Theres a couple of ad providers which apps use to display in-app ads. If there's no free version as in freely free, that's the distribution model a dev choses. Either pay and give the dev a compensation, or use the free ad-supported version from where the dev gets compensation. If you're not ok with either of the latter two, then most common ad providers can be blocked by using a modified hosts file, redirecting server requests for known ad-providers servers to the local loop. You need root access to your device to do that though. More on that later.
apart from allowing you to tinker with the phone what is the benefit of rooting (which I assme means gaining admin access df. unix)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rooting your device is not strictly comparable in running your desktop box with root. Yes, it's running (certain) stuff with superuser rights, but that's not exactly the point. Rooting basically means - among other things - obtaining write access to the otherwise user-inaccessible system partitions (/system, /data et al.) and mess around with them. This is needed for certain things a user might wants to do, sneaking in a modified hosts file, for example. I don't know what you'd describe as "tinker" but I guess yes, tinker it is.
what are the additional features on the xperia t of the popular customer ROMS and do they alway require rooting to apply?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's usually the same as with every other device: basically theres modified stock ROMs or "real" custom ROMs. The first being for example slimmed down ROMs, with "useless" manufacturer or telco provider added junk-/crap-/adware and -services. Then theres "enhanced" stock based ROMs with added or modified stuff. Instead of 5 notification area toggles you can have up to 14, freely modifiable toggles. Or skin and theme the user interface, or use modified kernels with support for additional services or so. And then there's the "real" custom ROMs which you'll find under "Original Android Development". This is user generated code which you'll find in AOSP or Cyanogenmod ROMs. These kind of ROMs do not base on stock code at all, except for the parts which are highly device specific as closed-source device driver blobs etc, but the system as such is completely open source, comparable to how the Linux/Unix universe works. The benefit of such ROMs is usually that they are quite "barebones" and as such perform much better in terms of interface fluidity etc. But you may miss out on cool manufacturer added stuff specifically tailored for the device at hand, if theres no compatible open source alternative. A great example for this is the Samsung Galaxy Note: the S-Pen is supported in Cyanogenmod, but there's cool S-Pen features CM cant offer, you'll only find them in Samsungs stock ROM. You may find a comparable analogy for the Xperia T, or any other device.
If you have to apply an earlier firmware to be able to root the phone, what are you loosing (does Sony publish a changelog?) and sure firmware updates tend to be a good thing, so isn't this a problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's no detailed changelog for stock firmware updates. This is the case for most if not all manufacturers. Samsung doesn't release a changelog at all, for example. And updates can be a good thing, or a bad thing. A good thing is added functionality, a bad thing is closing an exploit to root the device, for example. You get the idea.
For the device at hand: there's no big differences between .3.195 and 3.223 or even the "old" .1.303 (or so) so in case you want root but not unlock your device, go ahead, you won't lose much especially if you don't know about it
d) about what are the most common alternative settings ppl make to a stock Xperia T?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, modern mobile operating systems offer a ton of settings to play around with, you'll find [number of users]*[number of features]^(numbers of features) of recommendations regarding best settings. Basically it's always the same: the more you do, the more you try to get out of your device, the higher the energy consumption will be, the shorter your battery time will be. Apply some common sense and you'll find your own best settings. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but, well, that's the way it works
Howdy folks! I'd like to ask all of you SGS6 Edge users for your opinions regarding the "worthiness" of retaining root vs updating. For the TLDR please go to the bottom! :good:
I used to be super active on here, making small tweaks/apps for people all starting around the Droid Bionic ... so lets just say I'm not stranger to the world of root/customization.
With that being said, since the peak of my crack-flashing habit during the days of the Galaxy S3 I have slowed down quite a bit. Part of that is my own life (I'm older, have way more responsibility at home)...but I believe a much larger factor has been locked phones and a quieter development scene (at least with Samsung devices).
I've had my Edge rooted since the root became available - and I suppose I mostly use it to access the file system, remove bloat, and run the occasional "root only" app.
In the time that I've been rooted on OE2 (running CleanROM 1.5) there have been a few rather large updates to the phone's software both aimed at fixing issues and adding features. As I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone, root hasn't been attained for these new releases .. and I'm somewhat skeptical that it ever will as this device becomes "older".
SO the TLDR here is:
How many of you who HAD their Edge rooted decided to give up root to update their device? Was it worth it to you? Would you do it again if you had the chance, or would you have just kept root?
I updated and I wouldn't go back. Sure I miss the ad blocking and some other fun stuff, but the phone is so much more stable and usable after the updates. If you don't use root for much (which I didn't considering we never got Xposed anyway) I'd recommend doing the update, personally. I followed basically the same path as you. I flashed a new ROM or kernel basically daily on my S3, and have slowly felt more of a need for a more usable phone than being able to tweak it beyond recognition. If you're anything like I am now, you'll appreciate the stability that upgrading brings.
Sent from my SM-G925V using XDA Free mobile app
32BitWhore said:
I updated and I wouldn't go back. Sure I miss the ad blocking and some other fun stuff, but the phone is so much more stable and usable after the updates. If you don't use root for much (which I didn't considering we never got Xposed anyway) I'd recommend doing the update, personally. I followed basically the same path as you. I flashed a new ROM or kernel basically daily on my S3, and have slowly felt more of a need for a more usable phone than being able to tweak it beyond recognition. If you're anything like I am now, you'll appreciate the stability that upgrading brings.
Sent from my SM-G925V using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm definitely leaning in that direction. I think a big part of it is literally mental/mind over matter ... just knowing my phone is more my phone and less Verizon's certainly makes an impact.
I updated as well, the phone is running better I think. I do miss ad blocking and tb. Being able to disable apps is helpful. Sometimes I wish I wouldn't have but for the most part I'm happy with it. I hate that Verizon is making us make this decision. The struggle is real!
theresin said:
Howdy folks! I'd like to ask all of you SGS6 Edge users for your opinions regarding the "worthiness" of retaining root vs updating. For the TLDR please go to the bottom! :good:
I used to be super active on here, making small tweaks/apps for people all starting around the Droid Bionic ... so lets just say I'm not stranger to the world of root/customization.
With that being said, since the peak of my crack-flashing habit during the days of the Galaxy S3 I have slowed down quite a bit. Part of that is my own life (I'm older, have way more responsibility at home)...but I believe a much larger factor has been locked phones and a quieter development scene (at least with Samsung devices).
I've had my Edge rooted since the root became available - and I suppose I mostly use it to access the file system, remove bloat, and run the occasional "root only" app.
In the time that I've been rooted on OE2 (running CleanROM 1.5) there have been a few rather large updates to the phone's software both aimed at fixing issues and adding features. As I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone, root hasn't been attained for these new releases .. and I'm somewhat skeptical that it ever will as this device becomes "older".
SO the TLDR here is:
How many of you who HAD their Edge rooted decided to give up root to update their device? Was it worth it to you? Would you do it again if you had the chance, or would you have just kept root?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was a hardcore Samsung user until the Note 3/S4 when root became more difficult to obtain and keep (updating). I even bought a Developer S5 so I could crack flash. As of late, the Galaxy line and development (for Verizon at least) is dead. If you want root/development on Verizon ditch the S6E and get a MXP. You can sell your used phone for about what a brand new unlocked Moto X Pure will cost you....unlockable bootloader, development, and a sd card.
I wouldn't buy a computer without administrative rights and I won't buy (and keep) a phone that I can't obtain root on.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Went through the same dilemma. The final straw for me was finding Package Disabler Pro (costs like 2.99) and that allowed me to at least disable the bloatware and remove it to a degree. I was really worried about losing Viper4android, greenify, and adaway. So far using the built in sound equalizer, the ram management improvements, theme store and the adblocker browser have been more then sufficient in maintaining the experience I was used to. Overall 10/10 experience would un-root again.
I was rooted and gave it up to get up to date. Without Xposed there really was not that much important stuff I wanted from root.
Benew0 said:
Went through the same dilemma. The final straw for me was finding Package Disabler Pro (costs like 2.99) and that allowed me to at least disable the bloatware and remove it to a degree. I was really worried about losing Viper4android, greenify, and adaway. So far using the built in sound equalizer, the ram management improvements, theme store and the adblocker browser have been more then sufficient in maintaining the experience I was used to. Overall 10/10 experience would un-root again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. Once I found package disabler I was very happy losing root for the update.
Sent from my SM-G925V using XDA Free mobile app
Please I use package disabler, and I ask it to disable bloat ware but I realised most of useful stuffs were also disabled. Can I kindly get a list of stuffs you safely disabled without affecting phone functionality
---------- Post added at 07:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------
Can you upload your xml file
Here is my XML. I didn't do an extremely thorough debloat but it gets rid of most of my useless icons and speeds things up a bit. No negative effects from it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6jz8Bcr3sVVemw0MzYwa3Z5eTg/view?usp=docslist_api
Sent from my SM-G925V using XDA Free mobile app
If,,,,with the delays from Samsung, my S6 Edge gets MM I have serious doubts that I will update my phone. I will most likely wait until MM has been proven to be something better enough for me to lose root. However, I am still very shocked that this phone does not have any dev support? I know carriers like Verizon make it hard, if not impossible, to root but c'mon now I know there are devs out there that could crack this but they have either stopped or moved on to paid positions helping find exploits for carriers and manufacturers.
Thanks
I am currently running a rooted edge, which I did right after the phone's release. I will be updating to a non-rooted marshmellow as it has the permissions control, which is what I originally wanted root for.
However I will really miss not having the csv editor as I have been able to tweak the phone a lot due to some stupid samsung decisions.
Archangel said:
If,,,,with the delays from Samsung, my S6 Edge gets MM I have serious doubts that I will update my phone. I will most likely wait until MM has been proven to be something better enough for me to lose root. However, I am still very shocked that this phone does not have any dev support? I know carriers like Verizon make it hard, if not impossible, to root but c'mon now I know there are devs out there that could crack this but they have either stopped or moved on to paid positions helping find exploits for carriers and manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did end up giving up root. While there's plenty of things I miss, I have to admit the update has been a very good experience.
I think a lot of devs have moved on to paid positions as network security becomes one of the most lucrative industries out there. I also think carriers put a lot more emphasis on locking down their devices now than they did previously (call me captain obvious on that one..)
If only the bootloader unlock would be leaked like it was for the GS3
How does Tasker work with the unroot MM update? I have so many profiles I do not want to lose in Tasker.
Here are some files I found if there is a specific directory you need to see I'll try to get access to it all you need to do is post the dir here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-k10MX8t9TXN0lsSGpteFRBQnc/view?usp=docslist_api
Best of luck! We T-Mobile S7 owners are crossing our fingers.
Adaway will make this phone perfect.
I've rooted every phone I've had, there's always been a reason I needed it. I got to say though, I can't find an everyday reason to really need it on my edge.
Kris
FatKris said:
I've rooted every phone I've had, there's always been a reason I needed it. I got to say though, I can't find an everyday reason to really need it on my edge.
Kris
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you don't want freedom so you don't want Xposed via flashfire so you don't want Titanium Backup those are just some things I need root for idk about you but even if I didn't need those things I would still do it just because I can.....
Ghost Dragon said:
So you don't want freedom so you don't want Xposed via flashfire so you don't want Titanium Backup those are just some things I need root for idk about you but even if I didn't need those things I would still do it just because I can.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think there's pros and cons to everything...
I love rooting, always have but this is the first time in a long time that I can't root and it's actually not so bad.
Granted I'd love to be able to installing ROMs, remove ads and bloat and have all these tweaks and tricks but it's sort of like... been there, done that.
If you root your phone now, you can NEVER use Samsung Pay... EVER on your device. Even if you restore stock firmware. That's actually a big issue now with mobile payments being a common thing.
I kind of like having my phone much more secure and safe to do important financial transactions and access important accounts (just like I do on my iPhone) without fear of lax security while using rooted/custom software.
I think moving into the future, flagship phones like Samsung's Galaxy line(s) won't risk bad press or the potential for bad press by allowing the modding community to easily gain root access and customize their software.
They have more to lose than gain by doing that, especially with their rivalry with Apple being so neck and neck now.
I think people like us on XDA who love rooting will have to purchase devices from up and coming OEMs if we still want to root, either that or Nexus devices.
HNIC215 said:
I think there's pros and cons to everything...
I love rooting, always have but this is the first time in a long time that I can't root and it's actually not so bad.
Granted I'd love to be able to installing ROMs, remove ads and bloat and have all these tweaks and tricks but it's sort of like... been there, done that.
If you root your phone now, you can NEVER use Samsung Pay... EVER on your device. Even if you restore stock firmware. That's actually a big issue now with mobile payments being a common thing.
I kind of like having my phone much more secure and safe to do important financial transactions and access important accounts (just like I do on my iPhone) without fear of lax security while using rooted/custom software.
I think moving into the future, flagship phones like Samsung's Galaxy line(s) won't risk bad press or the potential for bad press by allowing the modding community to easily gain root access and customize their software.
They have more to lose than gain by doing that, especially with their rivalry with Apple being so neck and neck now.
I think people like us on XDA who love rooting will have to purchase devices from up and coming OEMs if we still want to root, either that or Nexus devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. So you would sacrifice freedom for convenience
2. Geohots court session with Apple made it legal to jailbreak aka root phones so why exactly would they get "bad press"
3. Android is open source so what Samsung is doing is kind of breaking the law of Android destroying the very foundation and purpose of it's creation
Ghost Dragon said:
1. So you would sacrifice freedom for convenience
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I mean that's the thing with security in this day and age. No?
In order to have it, you must sacrifice the freedom (to an extent) to mod and install 3rd party software. While I personally love what XDA stands for, does and has to offer - I mean I love rooting and customizing my phones but I certainly can understand the other perspective in regards to security. XDA might be full of great individuals who are trying to improve the software experience for users, however, there are plenty of other 3rd parties who have ill intent.
It's the same reason why Apple is so strict with system access on iOS.
Samsung is trying to be their equal - in terms of quality, security and everything else.
In order to maintain that level of security in the midst of a global, albeit slow, roll out of Samsung Pay, they have to limit access to their system as well.
Which is why, like I said in my previous comment, if you EVER root a Samsung phone then you can NEVER use Samsung Pay on it.
To a lot of folks, especially those coming from the iPhone, Mobile Payments, Mobile Banking and security in general is a very important feature for them to have.
If not, it furthers the stereotype that Android is less secure than Apple. Which doesn't sit well with the plethora of users who don't care about rooting - we at XDA after all are really a niche group of users when looking at the grand scheme of consumers.
Ghost Dragon said:
2. Geohots court session with Apple made it legal to jailbreak aka root phones so why exactly would they get "bad press"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They would get "bad press" if something were to compromise the security of their devices - anywhere in the world. Especially if that compromise impacted the potential safety and security of their Mobile Payment system.
Which rooting or allowing access to certain parts of the system may or may not do. Which is a big deal to them, their investors and most of their consumers (who aren't aware or concerned about rooting).
Android already has an unfair stereotype/label that it is less secure compared to iPhone.
Ghost Dragon said:
3. Android is open source so what Samsung is doing is kind of breaking the law of Android destroying the very foundation and purpose of it's creation
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Samsung doesn't care about what people like us on XDA think. People like us, who love to root and have the freedom to do whatever it is they want to their phones or to the software on their phones. As much as I hate to say it, we are a niche group.
I would love a developer edition of the S7/S7 Edge, that enables us to do all the wonderful things that the amazing and talented developers at XDA create for us. I would also love to be able to continue to use Samsung Pay and access and carry out important financial transactions through my mobile device.
Alas, that's not the case. So we have to choose between a bootloader locked version of the S7/S7 Edge or no S7/S7 Edge at all.
I think this phone is amazing and after years of nonstop rooting and customizing ROMs I don't mind sacrificing that aspect of customization in order to have a secure phone that I can do all the same things I can do on my iPhone 6s Plus.
Do I miss it sometimes? Sure
However, it's not the end of the world for me and the S7 Edge is still the best Android phone I've ever owned or used (I've owned alot too).
It is the "iPhone" of the Android world in terms of premium look/feel and quality and I think that is exactly the correlation that Samsung wants more consumers to have and think.
I was using Samsung Pay on my S6 Edge, and I decided to root it, unlock the bootloader, and flash a new ROM on it. 2 days later, someone had all of my personal info, all the info for a credit card I had on file and was using on my phone, and ran up $6000. I got a text from the bank to verify a purchase which I didn't make, and I responded that I did not make the transaction, but someone had enough information about me to call the bank, verify all of my information along with the purchase. I'm not saying the unlocking and flashing allowed someone to access this information, but it's a fairly large coincidence. Moving forward, any device that I use for financial transactions and such will remain stock, and if I root a device and flash it, it will be a separate device that doesn't contain any confidential information.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using XDA-Developers mobile app
Rolldog said:
I was using Samsung Pay on my S6 Edge, and I decided to root it, unlock the bootloader, and flash a new ROM on it. 2 days later, someone had all of my personal info, all the info for a credit card I had on file and was using on my phone, and ran up $6000. I got a text from the bank to verify a purchase which I didn't make, and I responded that I did not make the transaction, but someone had enough information about me to call the bank, verify all of my information along with the purchase. I'm not saying the unlocking and flashing allowed someone to access this information, but it's a fairly large coincidence. Moving forward, any device that I use for financial transactions and such will remain stock, and if I root a device and flash it, it will be a separate device that doesn't contain any confidential information.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using XDA-Developers mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly my point...
This is what makes so many consumers out there trust Apple because, whether true or not, they feel safe with Apple.
Samsung - being Apple's equivalent in the Android world - wants that same recognition and consumer trust.
I can't blame them either.
In this day and age, it is simply the world we live in, security is paramount for businesses and consumers alike.
I been rooting all my phones and my wife's phones for about 5-6 years and can say this phone is perfect jus the way it is. Since launch I had the gs7 edge and not once have I got the urge to root this beautiful device. And I'm sure I speak for most of us here that we can't go 2 days with a new phone without gaining root, flashing roms or xpose etc. For me it's more than jus keeping security. Samsung jus made a phone worth keeping stock, finally.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using XDA-Developers mobile app
I've rooted every single android phone I've owned. I was one of the first people to run CyanogenMod on my Droid when some crazy no-named guy named Koush appeared out of nowhere and said SPRecovery that we had ALL had wasn't "real" recovery and created his own recovery in order to flash the real CyanogenMod ROM. Later this recovery would be called Clockwork Mod. I remember flashing .sbf files that replaced everything on the phone just for a silly custom boot logo. I used to kang features and themes from N1 threads on here, back when that was really the only phone on XDA. I used to build ROMs and custom themes and all that craziness. I remember when changing the clock color was unbelievably complicated. Google integrated many features first pioneered by devs into their main product that these phones all run on now. Taking away our ability to do that may very well slow the development of Android. It defeats the purpose of open-source. If you wish to forgo the freedom of root for the security of KNOX, or Samsung Pay, or whatever feature that conflicts with root, you're free to do so, even if rooting is possible. And manufacturers have always warned against rooting because it takes away from the security features they worked hard to include, and none have ever been held accountable for someone rooting a device before. It wouldn't be any different now. I guess, in summary, they really have nothing to lose by allowing root. Even if I have no real reason to root, I still would like the option to do on a device that I shelled out $700+ for. Rooting never was for everybody. But because some developers were nice enough to simplify the process to the point a chimp could do it. Literally. People that probably shouldn't root, did it anyways, but then felt that they shouldn't be responsible for their own actions. But for those of us that don't need our hand held throughout the entire process of owning a device, having the freedom to treat our property as we like doesn't seem like it's asking all that much. Especially for a device that runs on open-source software...
(Good God, I rambled a lot longer than intended. Sorry about the novel)
52brandon said:
I've rooted every single android phone I've owned. I was one of the first people to run CyanogenMod on my Droid when some crazy no-named guy named Koush appeared out of nowhere and said SPRecovery that we had ALL had wasn't "real" recovery and created his own recovery in order to flash the real CyanogenMod ROM. Later this recovery would be called Clockwork Mod. I remember flashing .sbf files that replaced everything on the phone just for a silly custom boot logo. I used to kang features and themes from N1 threads on here, back when that was really the only phone on XDA. I used to build ROMs and custom themes and all that craziness. I remember when changing the clock color was unbelievably complicated. Google integrated many features first pioneered by devs into their main product that these phones all run on now. Taking away our ability to do that may very well slow the development of Android. It defeats the purpose of open-source. If you wish to forgo the freedom of root for the security of KNOX, or Samsung Pay, or whatever feature that conflicts with root, you're free to do so, even if rooting is possible. And manufacturers have always warned against rooting because it takes away from the security features they worked hard to include, and none have ever been held accountable for someone rooting a device before. It wouldn't be any different now. I guess, in summary, they really have nothing to lose by allowing root. Even if I have no real reason to root, I still would like the option to do on a device that I shelled out $700+ for. Rooting never was for everybody. But because some developers were nice enough to simplify the process to the point a chimp could do it. Literally. People that probably shouldn't root, did it anyways, but then felt that they shouldn't be responsible for their own actions. But for those of us that don't need our hand held throughout the entire process of owning a device, having the freedom to treat our property as we like doesn't seem like it's asking all that much. Especially for a device that runs on open-source software...
(Good God, I rambled a lot longer than intended. Sorry about the novel)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Preach on brotha!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Loving this phone so far. Great battery life! Don't really care about root atm.
Hello Fellow XDA Users!
Some of you might remember me from over the years or maybe just from SamPWND root on the S8/S8+. I have had a number of devices since SamPWND with a few being Sammy's. I have been real busy with life and work but of course every spare time I get has been breaking Samsung devices!
I've found some exploits I never released publicly due to the devices being "unpopular" but figured since I am close now as well as what I have found so far most likely works on most Samsung devices (I've only tested on Tab S4 and N9 from Big Red) that I wouldn't keep this one away from everyone.
With that being said, I do not have FULL root yet but am very close. I wanted to create this thread as I don't have let's of free time these days to hopefully bounce ideas around to achieve our end goal a lot faster.
I am going to spare all the specific details to the masses but will let you know what I got so far. I prefer to collaborate over other applications that are more "real time" if there are any developers that read this then PM me and we can share contact info. If you just want to toss ideas in here then that is ok. I just don't want to have someone potentially take my hard work and claim it as their own before I can achieve root. I have been almost non stop since the N9 was released so you can understand hopefully why I want to be the one to bring root to you all!
With that being said, I will begin telling my story and what I have so far.
Some time last year I was working on another Sammy device after SamPWND as I wanted root of course. I spent weeks and weeks trying to find exploits until I finally did! For this time I wanted to see what Sammy would offer for it as it was a tablet, the XDA forum was deserted etc. They did pay out a 2500$ reward so it was ok.
The reason I bring this up is because the exploit plays a factor here as well. The exploit was a mix of SamPWND and SamFAIL as I used the same rooting script as SamPWND but with a custom partition that wasn't checked for integrity when flashing in ODIN.
On this partition there were some init rc scripts. I noticed these scripts could be executed on combo firmware as root user. This means I could mount the partition in Linux, modify the scripts to my liking, sparse it back up and flash in ODIN. Then I could execute them. Believe it or not, they were executed by entering a simple setprop command in ADB. So from start to finish I simply extracted this partition, modified the scripts to install root as well as packaged the root package in with the image, flash it and then execute an adb command and viola! I felt like a loser it took me so long to find yet was so simple to exploit.
This ties in to where I am at now. I spent months looking through various attack vectors with no luck due to enhanced security not just with Sammy but Android also. So one day last week I decided to take a look at combo firmware again. In no time I found something interesting and then I slapped myself for spending months again when I should have looked at init scripts first.
I found it on my Tab s4 initially but wanted to see if the same file was on my N9 on combo and it was!
The first script runs as system user. For some reason the entire folder it is in is world readable/writable which means there is a script I can modify. This one is not an init script but is a script none the less that runs as system user that I can modify and execute with a simple adb command. Of course we want root, not system so I keep looking.
So I started writing all sorts of scripts/commands and executing it as system user since it's better than running as shell user right? One day I decide I am going to try and change permissions on the entire device. To my surprise it actually changed permissions to ALOT of partitions/files including EFS. I start messing with efs but don't want to break my phone so I settled with backing it up, enabling hidden menu, changing my sales code, enabling factory test mode etc. Etc.
One day I decided to see if I could access the same scripts I used previously. The partition was not readable (perms denied) so initially I thought it was a dead end. Then for some reason I tried to go into the sub-directory where I knew the scripts were and guess what!? The parent directory perms were not changed but its sub directories were! Now I am somewhere I have been before and now I have some scripts that I know are executed by init and as root and how to trigger them.
I spent over a week and all my spare time trying to gain full root but progress is slow moving due to new security. I can make a script that backs up every partition on the device, mounts "most" partitions as rw, dd magisk boot images (of course secure check fail due to locked bl but I had to try lol), create folders and push files to roots etc. Etc. Its basically like having full root but you have to run it in a script for everything you do.
Since we have locked bootloaders, we cannot boot modified boot.img. There's also more security causing me to have issues with system root. One of those issues is the fact that system, vendor and odm partitions cause the kernel to panic instantly as soon as they are mounted.
I managed to force some stuff quickly before the crash but they also have something called "secure write protect" which basically backs out anything you might have written before it reboots. I have tried installing chains systemless root and even tried to install magisk without modifying the boot but I am just getting frustrated and tired.
One thing I am currently trying is a safestrap recovery. The end goal is to try and get a GSI on that is pre rooted. Yes, I also tried to dd a gsi and tried with a file manager... it appears to write but it doesn't. I think there is some security going on as it along with odm and vendor are "protected" partitions.
I can modify rootfs and just about every other partition on the device with ease but haven't successfully gained root via su or magisk etc. Some stuff will cause device to boot with good old custom unlock splash screen and even say custom and custom binary in ODIN. That plus it being project treble certified indicates we shouldn't have any issues using GSI's and more soon as we can get ot nailed down!
So in a nutshell, I now have the ability to do almost anything as root user using init scripts on our locked bootloader devices but we only have a little bit left to go in figuring out how to get su binaries onto the device thanks to sammy and googs enhanced security updates.
Hopefully this gets the convo going and I wanted everyone to know that it's not "impossible" and now seems like a guarantee! Let's get some ideas going in here on this last hurdle! If you are a developer please also PM me as I tend to forget to check xda sometimes plus I like a more real time conversation when it comes to this stuff.
We are almost there!
Donation Link: https://forum.xda-developers.com/donatetome.php?u=3812611
Forgot as a reminder that I can confirm the scripts there on tab s4 and n9 combos.. it's very likely they are present on S9/S9+ also and potentially other devices but they will need to be confirmed once we get to that point.
Was just barely reading up on Samsung defex security.. hope that's not the problem since only fix I can find requires hex patching the boot.img
so i noticed you gave quite a lot of info without going too much into details. i understand that you don't want anyone to steal your ideas and take credit.
would be a shame to get root.
and not get the credit where it is due..
now, that being said, isn't making these statements public open up the door for samsung to notice these possible exploits and patch them up for good? thus rendering all your efforts in vain? As even if the details were kept at a minimum from kangers to use them, the samsung devs can probably read through the lines quite easily.
anyways, hope your effort will bare fruit for as long as it is possible.( samfail lasted what 3 or 4 months? before patches made it too difficult to keep up)
Regards
bober10113 said:
so i noticed you gave quite a lot of info without going too much into details. i understand that you don't want anyone to steal your ideas and take credit.
would be a shame to get root.
and not get the credit where it is due..
now, that being said, isn't making these statements public open up the door for samsung to notice these possible exploits and patch them up for good? thus rendering all your efforts in vain? As even if the details were kept at a minimum from kangers to use them, the samsung devs can probably read through the lines quite easily.
anyways, hope your effort will bare fruit for as long as it is possible.( samfail lasted what 3 or 4 months? before patches made it too difficult to keep up)
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see where youre coming from but I dont think they can glean exactly what I have as theres are probably hundreds of scripts throughout the system.
Also, this approach is far from new. People have been using init scripts for rooting purposes for many years.
I also tried it with newer firmware and it actually didnt work. So it already requires an older frmware and I expect Sammy will increment bootloaders soon making it unavailable to those who have updated at that poimt in time. I figured best to put out the word on progress now and those can choose to wait or not.
Exploits never last very long. The only way to ensure longevity is to remain on old firmware. There was SamPWND before there was SamFAIL. This could be the perfect time. Unless I am the only one working on this device there will be other exploits to be found.
With that being said, only you have posted all day and no devs have reached out to join in the fun so at this rate by the time full root is achieved it most likely will already be patched.
Thats just my thoughts though.
elliwigy said:
I can see where youre coming from but I dont think they can glean exactly what I have as theres are probably hundreds of scripts throughout the system.
Also, this approach is far from new. People have been using init scripts for rooting purposes for many years.
I also tried it with newer firmware and it actually didnt work. So it already requires an older frmware and I expect Sammy will increment bootloaders soon making it unavailable to those who have updated at that poimt in time. I figured best to put out the word on progress now and those can choose to wait or not.
Exploits never last very long. The only way to ensure longevity is to remain on old firmware. There was SamPWND before there was SamFAIL. This could be the perfect time. Unless I am the only one working on this device there will be other exploits to be found.
With that being said, only you have posted all day and no devs have reached out to join in the fun so at this rate by the time full root is achieved it most likely will already be patched.
Thats just my thoughts though.
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Click to collapse
the note 9 kinda missed the party bus.
ive had almost all Sammy's devices and i have to unfortuanly say this is by far the most bleek state of development ive ever experienced.
but back in the day, there was far less android competition.
edit:
and i think that if not the competition, the fact that alot of people feel content with what stock samsung is offering. when the device came out, the forums were littered with Shakespearean: 'to root or not to' type of threads.
This is great news. Hopefully some devs contact you. Loved your work with the S8.
Yeeeeeeeesssssss!
Very exciting! If we're updated to Pie, are we out of luck then though, regarding the firmware?
I remember you doing some great stuff but I don't recall the phone... Galaxy S3? Note5? Note7? Note8? HTC M8? EVO 4G LTE? OG EVO? Anyway, I am excited to see you here. ?
Wow, this is very interesting, and I loved reading your detailed post. I am super exited, and can't thank you enough for all your work elliwigy! :good:
Full on beast!
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
PsiPhiDan said:
Yeeeeeeeesssssss!
Very exciting! If we're updated to Pie, are we out of luck then though, regarding the firmware?
I remember you doing some great stuff but I don't recall the phone... Galaxy S3? Note5? Note7? Note8? HTC M8? EVO 4G LTE? OG EVO? Anyway, I am excited to see you here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wanna say s8/+ and the note 8.. both of which root solutions I used.
Word brotha ?? thank you for your diligence. I love that your hobby can help out so many who don't have the time, will, or discipline to learn it.
PsiPhiDan said:
Yeeeeeeeesssssss!
Very exciting! If we're updated to Pie, are we out of luck then though, regarding the firmware?
I remember you doing some great stuff but I don't recall the phone... Galaxy S3? Note5? Note7? Note8? HTC M8? EVO 4G LTE? OG EVO? Anyway, I am excited to see you here. ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you should be fine as long as you remain on rev1 firmware..
PsiPhiDan said:
Yeeeeeeeesssssss!
Very exciting! If we're updated to Pie, are we out of luck then though, regarding the firmware?
I remember you doing some great stuff but I don't recall the phone... Galaxy S3? Note5? Note7? Note8? HTC M8? EVO 4G LTE? OG EVO? Anyway, I am excited to see you here. ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol ive had a lot of devices thats for sure but most my work is on samsung
teknowiz23 said:
I wanna say s8/+ and the note 8.. both of which root solutions I used.
Word brotha ?? thank you for your diligence. I love that your hobby can help out so many who don't have the time, will, or discipline to learn it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeeeeeeeesssssss!
You are always the loveliest "Rev1 firmware baby"
elliwigy said:
you should be fine as long as you remain on rev1 firmware..
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Click to collapse
So.. I had to get a replacement via Asurion, and before setting it up I installed the earliest unlocked firmware. Sm-n960u on Verizon plan. I understand that this should work as long as I don't update, correct?
teknowiz23 said:
So.. I had to get a replacement via Asurion, and before setting it up I installed the earliest unlocked firmware. Sm-n960u on Verizon plan. I understand that this should work as long as I don't update, correct?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, just make sure you stay away from anything that says N960UxxU2 or S2
Jammol said:
Yes, just make sure you stay away from anything that says N960UxxU2 or S2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine says Rev 1.1. Does that mean game over for me?
PsiPhiDan said:
Mine says Rev 1.1. Does that mean game over for me?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No that's for hardware revision. Is normally for when a device has had a hardware fix that changed something from the original design. So if they realized the fingerprint readers on rev1 were crappy and changed it out for future ones, they would show rev1.1 or whatever numbers they want to classify it as.
I'm not sure what they may have changed on the Note 9 though. Could have been camera or even something internal such as memory or radio chip.
What you want to stay away from is any changes to the attached image. Don't update to anything that says U2 or S2 at that section of the firmware.
Thank you for your hard work on this .
need to find out this for purchase
Probably not
Gunnerabsek said:
need to find out this for purchase
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Click to collapse
I don't think so
Because Samsung only provides 2 android updates
Note 8 already got oreo and pie update so forget it.
Maybe in future someone can possibly cook a android q custom rom compatible with our note 8.
Trex888 said:
I don't think so
Because Samsung only provides 2 android updates
Note 8 already got oreo and pie update so forget it.
Maybe in future someone can possibly cook a android q custom rom compatible with our note 8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Was Treble just an 8.1 thing then? Never had one of those devices and haven't had any of the newer samsung's until recently. I imagine we can't use it because of some signature check on the system partition that doesn't allow a generic AP? Because I thought 9.0 was supposed to be even more compatible with treble, or maybe I haven't looked into it in awhile.
I imagine we are really just at the tip of the iceberg still on using Safestrap to customize Stock 9.0 to it's fullest potential. I haven't gotten that far yet as far as Using Safestrap on Stock Pie. I'm trying to up my exploit game somehow. I understand the PoC's and the high level descriptions, and thus how things could maybe be chained together, but I'm not a low enough level coder yet. My Linux game is still a little weak sauce. By the time I'm done with Rev 5 Nougat root I might understand the environment enough to implement my ideas a little bit though.
But if we can use Safestrap to install a Stock 9.0 Build that also includes Safestrap then that does mean we should have quite a bit of leeway to get Q Roms backported, even if they aren't rooted. Didn't we do this for the Galaxy S5? I'm just saying, the security bulletins posted in the last 8-9 months do seem to show a path towards root through something like a User Controlled C&C Platform. It wouldn't be a stereotypical full root everyone thinks of, but it would get the foot in the door like dirtycow did.
To start though, we like to use busybox for a lot of things, but our devices natively use toybox, and toolbox. Samsung hasn't used busybox for anything, so us putting it there and usurping control from toybox is an automatic red flag. The device recognizes and accepts toybox over busybox naturally. I feel like we have a better chance of getting a modified or user controlled version of toybox onto the device than we do busybox or standard supersu. I don't think Pie was planned for in the code before CF left us. Because didn't we have to change over to sbin for a lot of things in Oreo? Maybe we actually just need a new path altogether. System Root seems to have had the best success in recent generations, but what elliwigy did on the Note9 is a good concept to start with I think.
Maybe I'm just crazy a bit, but we've seen that traditional root method keep getting harder and harder to use and new methods are very few and far between anymore. I just keep putting the concepts out in hopes others can put some dots together.