I'm using Moto XT1060 and on 4.4.4. I want to flash custom ROM, is there any ways to do this? Because i saw that must be on 4.2.2 to use safestrap recovery, and downgrade would be brick ? So anyway for me to go on ?
Once you are on 4.4.4 downgrading will result in a brick! The bootloader can NOT be downgraded.
Travisdroidx2 said:
Once you are on 4.4.4 downgrading will result in a brick! The bootloader can NOT be downgraded.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bad news !
Yup, anything after and including 4.4.2 will brick if downgraded. This even goes for my Dev edition
Have you looked into the China middleman? He seems to be becoming somewhat less reliable but you may be able to get an unlock code which would allow you to flash unlocked versions of ROMs rather than being limited to safestrap versions. Either that or wait to see if sunshine gets updated to work on 4.4.4.
To answer your question directly. Do NOT downgrade. While there is SOME conflicting info here, the overwhelming consensus is that downgrading will result in a brick either now or during a future upgrade.
cntryby429 said:
Have you looked into the China middleman? He seems to be becoming somewhat less reliable but you may be able to get an unlock code which would allow you to flash unlocked versions of ROMs rather than being limited to safestrap versions. Either that or wait to see if sunshine gets updated to work on 4.4.4.
To answer your question directly. Do NOT downgrade. While there is SOME conflicting info here, the overwhelming consensus is that downgrading will result in a brick either now or during a future upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Curious what the conflicting information is?
cntryby429 said:
To answer your question directly. Do NOT downgrade. While there is SOME conflicting info here, the overwhelming consensus is that downgrading will result in a brick either now or during a future upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Travisdroidx2 said:
Curious what the conflicting information is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The conflicting information is due to a few things...
1. It usually revolve around not explaining that due to security and other issues, GPT.BIN and MOTOBOOT.IMG can't be downgraded properly. And this causes a wide variety of issues.
2. We've had some who downgrades, doesn't brick then declares it "SAFE" for all... without taking into consideration what happens when future OTA gets installed (which is brick).
3. We've seen some try to be "fancy" and use mfastboot to downgrade everything but GPT.BIN and MOTOBOOT.IMG, the phone reboots and may generally work, so its declared "safe"... but doesn't explain there have been issues (like when on 4.4.2 and flashing down to 4.4 this way, go to Settings -> Security kicks you out)... and also doesn't take into consideration what happens when parts of the phone are miss-matched when a future OTA is taken and gets installed (bricks or on occasion user gets lucky and it just fails to install instead)... and this also poses a challange returning to a 100% consistent state.
4. We've seen those who don't explain that trying to downgrade with RSDLite will likely fail or will immediately brick your phone (which has happened). Or at least convey some kind of warning.
and more..
In most/all of these cases, the person who "tested it" and says "Its safe" fails to explain the risks and fails to state there are MANY threads and Posts of users who HAVE BRICKED while trying to downgrading, or at some point after downgrading, etc.
So, rather than seeing a ton of caveats, conditions, etc you'll just see most of give the "DO NOT DOWNGRADE!!" warnings.
I have read all of those "safe" way to downgrade that eventually leads to a brick. That is why I tell people do not downgrade even though I know it is the gpt.bin and bootloader security that can not be downgraded. I was just curious if that was the conflicting information or if it was me telling him that you will brick if downgrading was the conflicting information.
Travisdroidx2 said:
I have read all of those "safe" way to downgrade that eventually leads to a brick. That is why I tell people do not downgrade even though I know it is the gpt.bin and bootloader security that can not be downgraded. I was just curious if that was the conflicting information or if it was me telling him that you will brick if downgrading was the conflicting information.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry if that wasn't clear. By "here" I meant that conflicting info can be found here in the Moto X xda forum, not in your post. Now that these people have recklessly posted stuff trying to say that you can downgrade, I think it's worth acknowledging that the misinformation exists rather than just saying "you can't, period." That way the casual reader doesn't see one of those posts and think he's about to get away with something that other (read, capable & most knowledgeable) folks have said "just can't be done." That's all. No confrontation intended unless you count those yahoos trying to say it's safe.
cntryby429 said:
Sorry if that wasn't clear. By "here" I meant that conflicting info can be found here in the Moto X xda forum, not in your post. Now that these people have recklessly posted stuff trying to say that you can downgrade, I think it's worth acknowledging that the misinformation exists rather than just saying "you can't, period." That way the casual reader doesn't see one of those posts and think he's about to get away with something that other (read, capable & most knowledgeable) folks have said "just can't be done." Today's all. No confrontation intended unless you count those yahoos trying to say it's safe.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the response! I see your point. It is a good one to point out because we still see people ending up with a brick because they followed what someone told them was safe. Or they just don't read the warnings first.
I'll try to sum this up...
No, you can't downgrade. Unless you have money sitting in your pocket for a new device... Which more times than not is what you'll need to do.
2 new downgrade brick threads today.
Still wanna try? ?
Related
I was just Google searching hoping for some good news... And came across this posted yesterday...
http://www.youmobile.org/blogs/entry/Root-Moto-X-KitKat
... Any truth to that? And is it for any carrier, i.e att?
Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk
Links to a thread on here.
Yea I saw that, but they are not the same...
Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk
They want you to dl this http://www.cydiaimpactor.com/
Anyone know what it is?
Maybe it works for root....but write protection will be enabled. So all root changes will be lost on reboot or power down.
Sent from my N5, N7, Moto X, G Tab 3 or S2.....
kj2112 said:
Maybe it works for root....but write protection will be enabled. So all root changes will be lost on reboot or power down.
Sent from my N5, N7, Moto X, G Tab 3 or S2.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So here's my "dumb" question? Would apps like Greenify and Ti backup still possibly work since they just need root permissions, where as Xposed and other apps that need a reboot would be basically worthless?
jbaumert said:
So here's my "dumb" question? Would apps like Greenify and Ti backup still possibly work since they just need root permissions, where as Xposed and other apps that need a reboot would be basically worthless?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's other threads where this stuff gets talked about, but im pretty sure for things like that it would probably work. But any actual changes to anything would get reversed.
I've always been unlocked....so I don't have firsthand experience though.
Sent from my N5, N7, Moto X, G Tab 3 or S2.....
I'm not too sure about that root method.
Step 11 tells you to downgrade the Bootloader (MOTOBOOT.IMG) and GPT.BIN which is part of the security stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those the main components involved with bricking when trying to downgrade from 4.4.2 to 4.4 and lower?
But again, with a locked bootloader, as @kj2112 said, Write Protection will still be enabled.
KidJoe said:
I'm not too sure about that root method.
Step 11 tells you to downgrade the Bootloader (MOTOBOOT.IMG) and GPT.BIN which is part of the security stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those the main components involved with bricking when trying to downgrade from 4.4.2 to 4.4 and lower?
But again, with a locked bootloader, as @kj2112 said, Write Protection will still be enabled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been a bit confused by allusions to rooting without write protection. Everyone says similar stuff to what you guys have said--well, without write protection disabled you'll lose root on reboot. I'd be okay with that, just avoid rebooting my phone and using stuff that requires a reboot to take effect. The only thing I really want root for is to see my partial wakelocks to be able to properly troubleshoot battery issues. I really like the stock Moto X ux. If I could, I'd probably use some Xposed modules too, but all I really really want is to get better insight into my wakelock situation. Elsewhere, though, I read that root is totally impossible on 4.4.2, unless you have an unlocked bootloader (which I obviously don't). So, is it possible to get root, even if it doesn't survive a soft reset?
Jumnhy said:
I've been a bit confused by allusions to rooting without write protection. Everyone says similar stuff to what you guys have said--well, without write protection disabled you'll lose root on reboot. I'd be okay with that, just avoid rebooting my phone and using stuff that requires a reboot to take effect. The only thing I really want root for is to see my partial wakelocks to be able to properly troubleshoot battery issues. I really like the stock Moto X ux. If I could, I'd probably use some Xposed modules too, but all I really really want is to get better insight into my wakelock situation. Elsewhere, though, I read that root is totally impossible on 4.4.2, unless you have an unlocked bootloader (which I obviously don't). So, is it possible to get root, even if it doesn't survive a soft reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please see my response to you in the 4.2.2 to 4.4.2 thread.
kj2112 said:
Please see my response to you in the 4.2.2 to 4.4.2 thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, didn't realize until afterward it was the same voice in both threads.
Jumnhy said:
I've been a bit confused by allusions to rooting without write protection. Everyone says similar stuff to what you guys have said--well, without write protection disabled you'll lose root on reboot. I'd be okay with that, just avoid rebooting my phone and using stuff that requires a reboot to take effect. The only thing I really want root for is to see my partial wakelocks to be able to properly troubleshoot battery issues. I really like the stock Moto X ux. If I could, I'd probably use some Xposed modules too, but all I really really want is to get better insight into my wakelock situation. Elsewhere, though, I read that root is totally impossible on 4.4.2, unless you have an unlocked bootloader (which I obviously don't). So, is it possible to get root, even if it doesn't survive a soft reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
take a read of -> http://mark.cdmaforums.com/MotoX-LockedRoot.html
Root itself is not lost on reboot, only changes done to the /system folder and other protected places.
But yes, if you already have 4.4.2 on your phone, and can't unlock your bootloader, you won't be able to root.
Jumnhy said:
Thanks, didn't realize until afterward it was the same voice in both threads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where you found another same threads ?
DANIEL AMBRUSO said:
Where you found another same threads ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was just kj2112 explaining a similar issue to me. Check it out, but essentially my understanding is that there's no root for 4.4.2 if the phone never had root previously (ie, if you naively took the OTA like me without thnking about implications for root.
---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------
KidJoe said:
take a read of -> http://mark.cdmaforums.com/MotoX-LockedRoot.html
Root itself is not lost on reboot, only changes done to the /system folder and other protected places.
But yes, if you already have 4.4.2 on your phone, and can't unlock your bootloader, you won't be able to root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Solid, thanks for the concise summary. I'd read jcase's posts a while back about a potential exploit--something about using it in a teaching session at BlackHat? He even says though, that the exploit he has will probably never be useful for the average user insofar as it would be too hard to implement and n00bz like myself would end up bricking our phones. So I'm not holding my breath on that one. Ugh. Sad I missed the window for the Chinese connection. Should have jumped on it.
The Tallest said:
Links to a thread on here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Works with 4.4 and post-camera 4.2.2, but if you take the OTA to 4.-4-.2 it upgrades your bootloader and you lose the ability to turn write protection off ; root is pretty much useless at that point.
I have the Republic Wireless XT1049 and did the upgrade shown here and have 4.4.2 with write protect off.
Do not attempt this if you are already running 4.4.2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your bootloader is already changed and you run a big risk of bricking if you try to downgrade to the 4.2.2 bootloader!!!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/mot...ireless-moto-x-kitkat-4-t2738233/post52348028
As usual, read the instructions carefully.
Then read through the posts! Different rooters had different issues!
AFAIK no one bricked though.
glarepate said:
Works with 4.4 and post-camera 4.2.2, but if you take the OTA to 4.-4-.2 it upgrades your bootloader and you lose the ability to turn write protection off ; root is pretty much useless at that point.
I have the Republic Wireless XT1049 and did the upgrade shown here and have 4.4.2 with write protect off.
Do not attempt this if you are already running 4.4.2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your bootloader is already changed and you run a big risk of bricking if you try to downgrade to the 4.2.2 bootloader!!!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/mot...ireless-moto-x-kitkat-4-t2738233/post52348028
As usual, read the instructions carefully.
Then read through the posts! Different rooters had different issues!
AFAIK no one bricked though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The steps in the thread you link to are how to use use 4.4.2 via Safestrap, which does add a layer of complexity. It is the only option to take 4.4.2 IF you have a locked bootloader and are rooted and write protection disabled. And many do have good luck with it, so it is an option IF your phone is still on 4.4.
If I understand correctly, each safestrap rom is unique for the carrier.. in other words, you can't use the Republic Wireless SS rom if you are on Verizon. You can't use the Verizon SS rom if you are on ATT, etc. (for example, they were waiting on the ATT 4.4.2 SBF to create a SS Rom for the ATT X).
KidJoe said:
The steps in the thread you link to are how to use use 4.4.2 via Safestrap, which does add a layer of complexity. It is the only option to take 4.4.2 IF you have a locked bootloader and are rooted and write protection disabled. And many do have good luck with it, so it is an option IF your phone is still on 4.4.
If I understand correctly, each safestrap rom is unique for the carrier.. in other words, you can't use the Republic Wireless SS rom if you are on Verizon. You can't use the Verizon SS rom if you are on ATT, etc. (for example, they were waiting on the ATT 4.4.2 SBF to create a SS Rom for the ATT X).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, if you have already gone to 4.4.2 you are out of luck.
I'm using the T-Mobile SafeStrap Recovery with my RW Moto X. This was done by a Franken-ROM process that uses the 4.4.2 ROM without using the 4.4.2 bootloader and using the SS recovery to flash a zip file with some components of the 4.4.2 ROM and then flashing SuperSU. Whether or not it should be working, it is. Nothing I can, or want to, do about that.
But I am sure you are right that this resultant ROM would not work on phones from other carriers. Versions for other carriers are being developed though. It may simply be a matter of time and interest by motivated individuals until this is available for just about everyone.
Every time a new version update comes out there is always lots of threads on how to get it, how to root it, when it will come...etc. Unfortunately, there is rarely any mention of exactly what changes the new version brings and whether or not it is worth updating. Seems like so many in here are more interested in just having the latest version of Android and not with what actual improvements might come with it. Being that upgrade paths for the i537 aren't exactly simple (compared to previous phones I had that did not have locked bootloaders) could someone perhaps give us a rundown of what's new and improved in 4.4.2 to make it worth the trouble of upgrading? I am on rooted stock 4.2 with a ton of frozen system apps and before I go through the trouble to get the OTA I would like to assess if it is worth it. Also, will I first have to get the OTA of 4.3 before I will get the 4.4.2 update and if I do should I just wait to root until I have the latest version? Thank you!
Miami_Son said:
Every time a new version update comes out there is always lots of threads on how to get it, how to root it, when it will come...etc. Unfortunately, there is rarely any mention of exactly what changes the new version brings and whether or not it is worth updating. Seems like so many in here are more interested in just having the latest version of Android and not with what actual improvements might come with it. Being that upgrade paths for the i537 aren't exactly simple (compared to previous phones I had that did not have locked bootloaders) could someone perhaps give us a rundown of what's new and improved in 4.4.2 to make it worth the trouble of upgrading? I am on rooted stock 4.2 with a ton of frozen system apps and before I go through the trouble to get the OTA I would like to assess if it is worth it. Also, will I first have to get the OTA of 4.3 before I will get the 4.4.2 update and if I do should I just wait to root until I have the latest version? Thank you!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You will have to flash the ML2 Odin package to be able to get the OTA for NC9 to install. Personally I would wait a couple weeks since it seems like they're getting very close to unlocking the bootloader.
To answer your question about the 4.4.2 update, I've posted the changelogs from both AT&T and Samsung in this thread. If you really want a rundown of what the 4.4.2 update will look like, just look at the regular S4. There are slight UI changes between the S4 and S4A, but you'll get the overall impression.
Thank you, Devo.:victory:
Wait, you're saying we might finally get an unlocked bootloader??
TwoStroker37 said:
Wait, you're saying we might finally get an unlocked bootloader??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I understand yes. At worst it looks like they will be able to develop a patch that may not unlock the bootloader, but will allow us to flash any ROM with any kernel, effectively the same as if the bootloader was unlocked. There are still some things that are over my head, but everybody seems super excited about this latest development.
If you want to read about what is going on, read these threads (they actually reference each other):
If we are serious about unlocking the bootloader
Well, It must be our lucky day
These are developer threads so try not to clog them up unless you have something to contribute.
Hey, I was surfing the net and came across this website that ensures returned from 4.4.4 to 4.4.3 safely. Do you think, is it true?
www,motox-brasil.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/tutorial-fazendo-downgrade-do-android.html
Thanks for your comments
Ayel7bytes said:
Hey, I was surfing the net and came across this website that ensures returned from 4.4.4 to 4.4.3 safely. Do you think, is it true?
www,motox-brasil.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/tutorial-fazendo-downgrade-do-android.html
Thanks for your comments
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is risk involved. Notice that the author of that guide is telling you to remove the lines for flashing the partition table (gpt.bin) and the bootloader (motoboot.img)?
That means although you can get back to 4.4.3, you will most definitely have a mismatched partition table and/or bootloader. The biggest risk is when you take a future OTA. You risk bricking at that point - we have seen it happen multiple times here on XDA. While you might get away with it and be just fine, anyone who claims it to be perfectly safe is mistaken. There IS risk involved.
I'm really not understanding why one would even wish to downgrade back to a previous version anyways? Oh well - to each their own.
If you decide to follow that guide, you are doing it at your own risk.
Good Luck :good:
..
Ayel7bytes said:
samwathegreat Thank you very much for your advice. I prefer to believe you. The only reason for wanting to downgrade was because I'm from South America (Chile) and I made the mistake of following the footsteps of dashiell.cano to have verizon 4.4.4. It works, but wanted the rom Brazilian Retail 4.4.3 to access your OTA 4.4.4 already arrived. But you know a lot and it's smart to follow his advice. Greetings and thanks for your time.
Sorry for my poor English management
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No worries. As soon as the FULL 4.4.4 Brazilian SBF is released (not the OTA), you can safely flash the entire sbf without risk of bricking. It may take a couple more weeks or a month (can't say exactly when), but it will be leaked eventually and you can safely go back to your proper rom at that time.
:good:
@Ayel7bytes , keep in mind that besides the many posts of bricking from those who downgraded by skipping GPT.BIN and MOTOBOOT.IMG, we've also seen the phones not behave properly.
One of the best examples that come to mind is App Drawer -> Settings -> Security would kick you back out to the settings menu when downgrading from 4.4.2 to 4.4 (aka 4.4.0).
You are right in asking about it. And as @samwathegreat said, just sit tight until the 4.4.4 SBF for your carrier/model leaks, and then flash all parts of it.
KidJoe said:
@Ayel7bytes , keep in mind that besides the many posts of bricking from those who downgraded by skipping GPT.BIN and MOTOBOOT.IMG, we've also seen the phones not behave properly.
One of the best examples that come to mind is App Drawer -> Settings -> Security would kick you back out to the settings menu when downgrading from 4.4.2 to 4.4 (aka 4.4.0).
You are right in asking about it. And as @samwathegreat said, just sit tight until the 4.4.4 SBF for your carrier/model leaks, and then flash all parts of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can conclude with this situation every moto x is a story itself. I faithfully well-intentioned warnings but after you do this Brazilian tutorial with something of fear and see that I had no problem (my phone is perfect and better than before), I suspect that perhaps the Latin American models allow modify XT1058 but other versions like American XT1060 with all your locks maybe not. In my case I got my bike from verizon x 4.4.4 root and recovery modified brazil retail removing lines xml and then un updating OTA 4.4.4. It worked immediately.
But of course I do not recommend everyone do this. I just want to say that nothing is absolute and every moto x has its risks depending on the model and what their owners have done.
I see it mentioned a few times but what on the phone prevents say 4.4.2 from being installed after the upgrade to 4.4.3?
Because the partion table and bootloader are different and can't be downgraded at all.
Or, you can downgrade... But brick your device after, even later.
Anyone who knows anything about the moto x will tell you just don't. ?
I find that odd. I wonder what the purpose is for doing that.
There is no way to just re-write those sections? Even on a Dev Edition?
knitler said:
I find that odd. I wonder what the purpose is for doing that.
There is no way to just re-write those sections? Even on a Dev Edition?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Security!
Look at the whole Windows/AntiVirus industry.
All because Microsoft wanted unsecure compatibility with the old OS.
Saving software dev time making things work.
knitler said:
I find that odd. I wonder what the purpose is for doing that.
There is no way to just re-write those sections? Even on a Dev Edition?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, the Dev edition is no different. All the same "rules" apply.
The Dev edition is the same as any other.... It just keeps is warranty if you unlock it.
aviwdoowks said:
Security!
Look at the whole Windows/AntiVirus industry.
All because Microsoft wanted unsecure compatibility with the old OS.
Saving software dev time making things work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm kind of not buying this for a second?
How about linux, which is often pointed to for its security... And you can upgrade, down grade, switch out every component for newer/older/different, switch kernels, upgrade kernels, downgrade kernels... hell change out kernels with out even rebooting.
Really not buying it has anything with security.
KJ said:
Or, you can downgrade... But brick your device after, even later.
Anyone who knows anything about the moto x will tell you just don't. ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think we understand that, I mean if the OP didn't he wouldn't have the question of "why not?". Its not I think it might be a good idea... We are just trying to understand the situation because it seems unique, and so we were hoping someone who knows a lot about
AGISCI said:
Because the partion table and bootloader are different and can't be downgraded at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the most I have heard so far, and I have heard it once or twice... But can't the recovery image include information on the partition table?
I realize the way it is, but was curious on some more technical information explaining it...
scryan said:
I'm kind of not buying this for a second?
How about linux, which is often pointed to for its security... And you can upgrade, down grade, switch out every component for newer/older/different, switch kernels, upgrade kernels, downgrade kernels... hell change out kernels with out even rebooting.
Really not buying it has anything with security.
I think we understand that, I mean if the OP didn't he wouldn't have the question of "why not?". Its not I think it might be a good idea... We are just trying to understand the situation because it seems unique, and so we were hoping someone who knows a lot about
This is the most I have heard so far, and I have heard it once or twice... But can't the recovery image include information on the partition table?
I realize the way it is, but was curious on some more technical information explaining it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is security. Specifically the SECURED BOOTLOADER. Don't confuse secured with locked. Yes, you can unlock your bootloader, but it is still secured.
Read up on "TrustZone" and see why it is important, and why the OEMs would not want you to be able to downgrade. You can "buy" or "not buy" whatever you want....
I really don't get the linux reference. We are talking about a bootloader, not linux in general. That's beyond the fact that any smart linux user would almost never have any reason at all to downgrade. Think about the heartbleed vuln that was discovered recently. Why on god's green earth would you want to downgrade openssl back to a version that is vulnerable??
The early (4.2.2 & 4.4) bootloader (motoboot.img) was vulnerable to an exploit that allowed us to disable write protection. The updated bootloader (4.4.2+) is patched. You *CAN NOT* downgrade back to the vulnerable version.
^Does that not have *everything* to do with security??
scryan said:
I'm kind of not buying this for a second?
How about linux, which is often pointed to for its security... And you can upgrade, down grade, switch out every component for newer/older/different, switch kernels, upgrade kernels, downgrade kernels... hell change out kernels with out even rebooting.
Really not buying it has anything with security.
I think we understand that, I mean if the OP didn't he wouldn't have the question of "why not?". Its not I think it might be a good idea... We are just trying to understand the situation because it seems unique, and so we were hoping someone who knows a lot about
This is the most I have heard so far, and I have heard it once or twice... But can't the recovery image include information on the partition table?
I realize the way it is, but was curious on some more technical information explaining it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because even though the patition file and bootloader are included in the archive, they fail to flash because they have a lower version than what is installed.
AGISCI said:
Because even though the patition file and bootloader are included in the archive, they fail to flash because they have a lower version than what is installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can't just fake the version number?
No, it's not possible.
samwathegreat said:
I really don't get the linux reference. We are talking about a bootloader, not linux in general. That's beyond the fact that any smart linux user would almost never have any reason at all to downgrade. Think about the heartbleed vuln that was discovered recently. Why on god's green earth would you want to downgrade openssl back to a version that is vulnerable??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The linux reference was in direct reply to the quote above it that was making the argument that the PC anti-virus industry as well as the proliferation of malware and viruses is an example of the insecurity that is a result of a computers administrator having the technical ability to downgrade his OS software.
I mention linux because he was using PC OS's as an example, and Linux allows you not only to downgrade... but rewrite the bootloader. Or use a different bootloader. You bootloader can boot securely with UEFI, or you can just use BIOS. All this insecurity, but virtually no viruses, and very few security issues.
Why would you want to downgrade openssl? I wouldn't. I probably wouldn't flash back to an earlier version of android either... I keep my system pretty damn up to date. The point is more that his assertion that MS and Windows proves that being able to downgrade creates inherent security issues doesn't really hold up when you look at other systems that provide even more freedom.
samwathegreat said:
You can "buy" or "not buy" whatever you want....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know, and that is why I want to understand what it is I would be buying.
AGISCI said:
Because even though the patition file and bootloader are included in the archive, they fail to flash because they have a lower version than what is installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess this is the part that we are not understanding. Perhaps because I don't understand enough and have not looked through decompressed recovery images enough... but basically the issue is that Motorola is bricking the device, rather then letting it be downgraded to an potentially insecure image. I am guessing then this is a soft brick?
Does recovery not have the ability to re-write the partition table though? Is there no partition table information in this recovery image? I get that the stock recovery would not allow it, but wouldn't a developer edition user be able to flash a custom recovery that wouldn't have issues flashing the partition table. Don't TWRP or CWM, ect do this?
I guess then that is where the trust zone comes in...
scryan said:
The linux reference was in direct reply to the quote above it that was making the argument that the PC anti-virus industry as well as the proliferation of malware and viruses is an example of the insecurity that is a result of a computers administrator having the technical ability to downgrade his OS software.
I mention linux because he was using PC OS's as an example, and Linux allows you not only to downgrade... but rewrite the bootloader. Or use a different bootloader. You bootloader can boot securely with UEFI, or you can just use BIOS. All this insecurity, but virtually no viruses, and very few security issues.
Why would you want to downgrade openssl? I wouldn't. I probably wouldn't flash back to an earlier version of android either... I keep my system pretty damn up to date. The point is more that his assertion that MS and Windows proves that being able to downgrade creates inherent security issues doesn't really hold up when you look at other systems that provide even more freedom.
I know, and that is why I want to understand what it is I would be buying.
I guess this is the part that we are not understanding. Perhaps because I don't understand enough and have not looked through decompressed recovery images enough... but basically the issue is that Motorola is bricking the device, rather then letting it be downgraded to an potentially insecure image. I am guessing then this is a soft brick?
Does recovery not have the ability to re-write the partition table though? Is there no partition table information in this recovery image? I get that the stock recovery would not allow it, but wouldn't a developer edition user be able to flash a custom recovery that wouldn't have issues flashing the partition table. Don't TWRP or CWM, ect do this?
I guess then that is where the trust zone comes in...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The custom recoveries don't flash gpt.bin nor motoboot.img so using a custom recovery it's impossible to correctly flash a Moto X. You MUST use stock recovery with a Moto X. The problem isn't that it causes a brick by flashing an old version. The problem is that a brick happens the next time you do an OTA update. When the OTA update occurs there is a mismatched partion table and bootloader, so it ends up causing a brick.
The developer edition and the standard moto x are 100% identical. They only difference is that you don't void the warranty when you unlock the bootloader on the dev edition, however with the non dev edition your warranty is voided. So the same problem with the partition table and the bootloader ALSO apply to the developer edition as well.
AGISCI said:
The custom recoveries don't flash gpt.bin nor motoboot.img so using a custom recovery it's impossible to correctly flash a Moto X. You MUST use stock recovery with a Moto X. The problem isn't that it causes a brick by flashing an old version. The problem is that a brick happens the next time you do an OTA update. When the OTA update occurs there is a mismatched partion table and bootloader, so it ends up causing a brick.
The developer edition and the standard moto x are 100% identical. They only difference is that you don't void the warranty when you unlock the bootloader on the dev edition, however with the non dev edition your warranty is voided. So the same problem with the partition table and the bootloader ALSO apply to the developer edition as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said :good:
Still the answer is security.
So upgrade as Moto intended & do not downgrade!
---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------
scryan said:
Is there no partition table information in this recovery image? I get that the stock recovery would not allow it, but wouldn't a developer edition user be able to flash a custom recovery that wouldn't have issues flashing the partition table. Don't TWRP or CWM, ect do this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our recovery devs never restore such partitions or boot loader elements.
scryan said:
The linux reference was in direct reply to the quote above it that was making the argument that the PC anti-virus industry as well as the proliferation of malware and viruses is an example of the insecurity that is a result of a computers administrator having the technical ability to downgrade his OS software.
I mention linux because he was using PC OS's as an example, and Linux allows you not only to downgrade... but rewrite the bootloader. Or use a different bootloader. You bootloader can boot securely with UEFI, or you can just use BIOS. All this insecurity, but virtually no viruses, and very few security issues.
Why would you want to downgrade openssl? I wouldn't. I probably wouldn't flash back to an earlier version of android either... I keep my system pretty damn up to date. The point is more that his assertion that MS and Windows proves that being able to downgrade creates inherent security issues doesn't really hold up when you look at other systems that provide even more freedom.
I know, and that is why I want to understand what it is I would be buying.
I guess this is the part that we are not understanding. Perhaps because I don't understand enough and have not looked through decompressed recovery images enough... but basically the issue is that Motorola is bricking the device, rather then letting it be downgraded to an potentially insecure image. I am guessing then this is a soft brick?
Does recovery not have the ability to re-write the partition table though? Is there no partition table information in this recovery image? I get that the stock recovery would not allow it, but wouldn't a developer edition user be able to flash a custom recovery that wouldn't have issues flashing the partition table. Don't TWRP or CWM, ect do this?
I guess then that is where the trust zone comes in...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Smh I normally don't chime into these threads but I had to, you can't downgrade the bootloader because of security/compatibility plan and simple. It's the same concept as why you can't downgrade most PC's bios, if there is a flaw found in the system as a whole, then they don't want you to downgrade to that version. A lot of the times when people brick their device trying to downgrade is because it will flash, but because an efuse was blown when it was upgraded the downgraded version will not boot. Yes the recovery can technically rewrite those partitions but again because the efuse was blown it will not boot. Also yes being able to downgrade on any system Windows, Linux, Unix, IOS, Xbox, PS, etc are causes to security issues. If you can downgrade a system to a vulnerable version, it is then by definition less secure, no matter how you try to spin it. Take the futex vulnerability which affected most linux kernels from the past 5 years, so why would any desktop linux user ever want to downgrade to a vulnerable kernel? They wouldn't but if the end user isn't knowledgeable of the vulnerability they wouldn't know that downgrading makes them vulnerable. So since phones are used by so many people who are not knowledgeable of vulnerabilities, why would you want to give them the opportunity to downgrade themselves to a vulnerable OS?
Appreciate the info given... I don't want to downgrade, I am not trying to downgrade, I understand why its a bad idea, ect...
My view point was more questioning the insistence that it being technically possible to downgrade creates a security flaw on a machine that is kept up to date by a responsible individual. Unless we are trying to speak more abstractly about that fact that given someone the opportunity to make a mistake makes it more likely for one to occur, I don't think that security threat exists until you actually use that ability to downgrade to something with a flaw.
I guess then it comes down to personal viewpoint of do I want my phone to brick it self to protect me from myself and like sam said, you choose to go elsewhere... But then that is somewhat what I am trying to figure out. Even though its not something I would probably ever have to deal with, I don't like the idea... But "bricking" can be such a vague term with manufacturer specific recovery tools and "different levels of bricking".
Just trying to understand how what and when actually happens. I probably need to read some more of the recovery threads, and I have been looking through old threads here while considering VZ dev moto X and waiting for the x + 1 announcement, but I figured I would jump on the thread while it was here.
I understand keeping it simple because its generally a bad idea all around, and its just best not to confuse things... but its been hard to find deeper discussion or information then the general warnings. A bit of a better picture from this thread though.
aviwdoowks said:
Still the answer is security.
So upgrade as Moto intended & do not downgrade!
---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------
Our recovery devs never restore such partitions or boot loader elements.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
By "Our recovery devs" do you mean the ones doing the moto specific stuff? Do you know if this Is typical of the custom recoveries for other devices?
@scryan
I know far less then other posters, but yes android recoveries are all very similar in that regard.
scryan said:
Appreciate the info given... I don't want to downgrade, I am not trying to downgrade, I understand why its a bad idea, ect...
My view point was more questioning the insistence that it being technically possible to downgrade creates a security flaw on a machine that is kept up to date by a responsible individual. Unless we are trying to speak more abstractly about that fact that given someone the opportunity to make a mistake makes it more likely for one to occur, I don't think that security threat exists until you actually use that ability to downgrade to something with a flaw.
I guess then it comes down to personal viewpoint of do I want my phone to brick it self to protect me from myself and like sam said, you choose to go elsewhere... But then that is somewhat what I am trying to figure out. Even though its not something I would probably ever have to deal with, I don't like the idea... But "bricking" can be such a vague term with manufacturer specific recovery tools and "different levels of bricking".
Just trying to understand how what and when actually happens. I probably need to read some more of the recovery threads, and I have been looking through old threads here while considering VZ dev moto X and waiting for the x + 1 announcement, but I figured I would jump on the thread while it was here.
I understand keeping it simple because its generally a bad idea all around, and its just best not to confuse things... but its been hard to find deeper discussion or information then the general warnings. A bit of a better picture from this thread though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The thing is you keep looking at it from a PC point of view, where you basically have full control over the software and hardware. Phones have much tighter restrictions on them from carriers, fcc, etc they're not personal computers. So the reason they make it where you can't downgrade the bootloader is because that's what controls the restriction on downgrading any other partition on the device.
So with the Moto X's 4.4.4 update they probably blew an efuse, so users with a locked device can't downgrade. This is done because with locked devices they can only flash signed kernels, so by blowing the efuse they can't downgrade to the vulnerable 4.4.2 and below kernel even though it is signed correctly. This is because lets say a malicious app was able to get on a device that had the ability to downgrade say back to 4.2.2. That app could flash the older vulnerable signed kernel to the recovery partition, to disable write protection gain more control over the phone etc, without the users knowledge. Now that is a stretch and probably will never happen but that doesn't mean the threat isn't there, and hackers are very creative at deploying malicious attacks. So by updating the bootloader and blowing an efuse the older vulnerable kernels can't be flashed. Now this is all negated if you're unlocked of course, but if you don't want to ever worry about this issue don't update your bootloader. This is not recommended but I've mentioned it several times on this forum I haven't updated my X's bootloader since I bought it, it's still running the factory 4.2.2 bootloader, running 4.4.4 with no problem.
The other thing you're missing is we're technically not supposed to have the ability to restore our phones, except for the developer edition of course. The fastboot restore files are leaked not released to the public, they are designed for use when phones are returned to be refurbished. So they don't want the phones that are being refurbished to be flashed back to an older version, they want it to be refurbished and the latest software version flashed to it.
iKrYpToNiTe said:
The other thing you're missing is we're technically not supposed to have the ability to restore our phones, except for the developer edition of course. The fastboot restore files are leaked not released to the public, they are designed for use when phones are returned to be refurbished. So they don't want the phones that are being refurbished to be flashed back to an older version, they want it to be refurbished and the latest software version flashed to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A bit selfish, and perhaps lazy of me but I am only really here talking about the developer version, I just haven't bothered to write the full "verizon developer edition " every time (most of this is research for next phone, which will be developer handset)... To me, obviously a locked phone is going to have weird restrictions and hacked together paths to getting things done, your not supposed to have admin rights...(yeah, maybe I do look at it too much as a computer. Mostly because I am annoyed the differences seem intentionally imposed). But when I pay outright for a device so that I can own it and have full administrative control... anyways, thats a different more philosophical discussion. The point is I have been talking about an unlocked device using third party software where possible.
Either way, appreciate the reply. I have a better understanding of the issue... Though coming from an S4 it still seems weird that MDK*/developer phones don't seem to have the same issues/warnings. It would seem however that the difference may be that MDK/dev owners only use kernels/roms prepared for their devices and do not update the bootloader. I suppose if more people in the Moto X community were worried about maintaining the ability to downgrade an unlocked device it would be technically possible to upgrade in a way that could be easily reversed, similar to the S4.
(*MDK was the first VZ S4 firmware, and the only one that has a released exploit to allow for a full custom recover. Later locked firmwares must rely on safestrap)
I'm kinda a noob at this but I'm not completely clueless. .. I've tried a couple one click apps, watched a few videos, and read countless articles without any luck. .. can someone help me? If it's even possible....
From all I've read, no, you can't. You can root NC2 (Android 4.4.2 KitKat) or OC1. You might check this post out.
An old thread, but I just wanted to leave this for others.
There aren't any public tools to directly root the OC3, OC2, or OC1 Lollipop firmwares for the N900A.
However, it is possible to achieve root by wiping the phone, installing the NC2 (KitKat) firmware, and then upgrading the OCx, while preserving root access.
I had followed the threads (at the time back then) using SafeStrap methods, but I couldn't get SafeStrap to work with OC3, so I had to abandon SafeStrap and use FlashFire to install OC3 and maintain root.
After that, I deodexed OC3, install xposed, and was up and running happy.
I'm not sure exactly what Samsung fixed, but OC3 was released a full 18 months after OC2, so I think it's a more secure software release (only 2.5 years old, instead of 4+ years, heh). I recall that on OC2, some of the stagefright CVE's still showed as vulnerable, but I just ran the Zimperium app on OC3 and see it reports that it's not vulnerable to any of the CVEs.
@digitalcandy4me thanks for the helpful info. This is one of the few times I've read this solution. It's the only one I've seen that seems promising.
Like OP I'm newb. But I've never rooted a phone. I've done plenty of other tech but I hate coding. I just want to change the dumb stock rom on this phone. Bloatware haunts me simply on principal.
I have "unlocked" att 5.0 lollipop Samsung n900a 0c3 and info on this phone is crickets. I have no idea how to downgrade to 4.4, I'm not confident it will even work but I'll try it. I paid 70$ so no big deal + it seems like I couldn't even succeed in bricking this stupid vault.
ANYWAY could you possibly give some more detail on how to do this? I know people hate getting vague questions on this board but it seems like there's no where to find answers. I really have looked.
:crying:
FluppingCrud said:
@digitalcandy4me thanks for the helpful info. This is one of the few times I've read this solution. It's the only one I've seen that seems promising.
Like OP I'm newb. But I've never rooted a phone. I've done plenty of other tech but I hate coding. I just want to change the dumb stock rom on this phone. Bloatware haunts me simply on principal.
I have "unlocked" att 5.0 lollipop Samsung n900a 0c3 and info on this phone is crickets. I have no idea how to downgrade to 4.4, I'm not confident it will even work but I'll try it. I paid 70$ so no big deal + it seems like I couldn't even succeed in bricking this stupid vault.
ANYWAY could you possibly give some more detail on how to do this? I know people hate getting vague questions on this board but it seems like there's no where to find answers. I really have looked.
:crying:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Flash nc1 firmware, towel root....install busybox and safe strap and flash away.
FluppingCrud said:
@digitalcandy4me thanks for the helpful info. This is one of the few times I've read this solution. It's the only one I've seen that seems promising.
Like OP I'm newb. But I've never rooted a phone. I've done plenty of other tech but I hate coding. I just want to change the dumb stock rom on this phone. Bloatware haunts me simply on principal.
I have "unlocked" att 5.0 lollipop Samsung n900a 0c3 and info on this phone is crickets. I have no idea how to downgrade to 4.4, I'm not confident it will even work but I'll try it. I paid 70$ so no big deal + it seems like I couldn't even succeed in bricking this stupid vault.
ANYWAY could you possibly give some more detail on how to do this? I know people hate getting vague questions on this board but it seems like there's no where to find answers. I really have looked.
:crying:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read my answer!
chrisnice906 said:
Flash nc1 firmware, towel root....install busybox and safe strap and flash away.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe u should not be modifying phones.