Related
coming to note 8?
I do not believe! Officially, you have to buy S9, but after Note8 gets Oreo, it can be done porting the S9 application on Note8.
Port
Is porting the app a relatively simple process? I have flashed my Note 8 to Oreo and I'm curious about porting the app.
michelino159 said:
I do not believe! Officially, you have to buy S9, but after Note8 gets Oreo, it can be done porting the S9 application on Note8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wsaunders4 said:
Is porting the app a relatively simple process? I have flashed my Note 8 to Oreo and I'm curious about porting the app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No - Its not easy and the AR emoji was made specifically to work on the S9 - it probably will not work on the Note 8 at all...but maybe there is a developer who could work magic. Don't expect to see it for a long time
Must port with cameraS9.apk.I expect Note9.
1WalkerBait said:
I have it working. Will post pics when I can
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks what apps did you use
1WalkerBait said:
Arcore apk, gcam5 arnov version. Wont work at first but let the arcore apk will update through Google then it will work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where did you find that apk
---------- Post added at 02:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 AM ----------
1WalkerBait said:
Arcore apk, gcam5 arnov version. Wont work at first but let the arcore apk will update through Google then it will work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you are in the wrong thread we're talking about a note 8 camera not Google camera apk
wsaunders4 said:
Is porting the app a relatively simple process? I have flashed my Note 8 to Oreo and I'm curious about porting the app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a app that works like ar emoji...
Its really cool app....
And the app name is booble keaboard...you can get this app in playstore
i just finished with a new update of my note 8 with oreo .. but unfortunately it doesn't support ar emoji
So the Note 8 definitely will not get AR emoji? I just got a notice few months ago when I'm not really into the note series I really want the 9 plus I should have waited. The note is too big for me and I like the fingerprint sensor on the nine.
Rose4uKY said:
So the Note 8 definitely will not get AR emoji? I just got a notice few months ago when I'm not really into the note series I really want the 9 plus I should have waited. The note is too big for me and I like the fingerprint sensor on the nine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Officially from Samsung, probably not.
Have you held a S9+ yet? It is a tad bit smaller than the Note 8 but not by much, pretty much the same. If you want to swap to a S9+ only because of size, you might be disappointed. S9 would be a noticeable difference but hardware is not the same as S9+
Have you held a S9+ yet? It is a tad bit smaller than the Note 8 but not by much, pretty much the same. If you want to swap to a S9+ only because of size, you might be disappointed. S9 would be a noticeable difference but hardware is not the same as S9+[/QUOTE]
Yes I've held the S9 Plus we originally had the 7 Edge and wanted to upgrade but the 8 plus wasn't enough difference for us to upgrade. And then we saw specs of the note we got it only because it had the dual cameras an the 6 gigs of RAM and was the latest phone out plus Samsung gave us 300 bucks for our 7 edges which is the price we paid for them from Sprint on a two-year contract. But I knew the nine would be out in a few months and I should have waited. But we didn't know that Samsung would still be given $300 out for the 7 Edge so that's another reason we did it that quickly. I'm not really into the note series I have small hands and I never use the pen I don't like where the fingerprint sensor is.
The S9 plus has dual speakers with Dolby Atmos better camera the intelligent scan and of course the AR Emoji which I believe would like to have. Was going to sell my note and get the S9 plus but we just got our phones a few months back and my husband doesn't want me doing that and spending the difference on an S9 Plus so I'm hoping the note get some of the features of the 9. We've only had our notes for like 3 months I paid 650 and got offered 550 but then I'd have to pay 850 for a S9 plus unlocked so it's probably not going to happen
Rose4uKY said:
Have you held a S9+ yet? It is a tad bit smaller than the Note 8 but not by much, pretty much the same. If you want to swap to a S9+ only because of size, you might be disappointed. S9 would be a noticeable difference but hardware is not the same as S9+
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I've held the S9 Plus we originally had the 7 Edge and wanted to upgrade but the 8 plus wasn't enough difference for us to upgrade. And then we saw specs of the note we got it only because it had the dual cameras an the 6 gigs of RAM and was the latest phone out plus Samsung gave us 300 bucks for our 7 edges which is the price we paid for them from Sprint on a two-year contract. But I knew the nine would be out in a few months and I should have waited. But we didn't know that Samsung would still be given $300 out for the 7 Edge so that's another reason we did it that quickly. I'm not really into the note series I have small hands and I never use the pen I don't like where the fingerprint sensor is.
The S9 plus has dual speakers with Dolby Atmos better camera the intelligent scan and of course the AR Emoji which I believe would like to have. Was going to sell my note and get the S9 plus but we just got our phones a few months back and my husband doesn't want me doing that and spending the difference on an S9 Plus so I'm hoping the note get some of the features of the 9. We've only had our notes for like 3 months I paid 650 and got offered 550 but then I'd have to pay 850 for a S9 plus unlocked so it's probably not going to happen[/QUOTE]
I have seen numerous videos and articles that all seem unanimous in suggesting people not upgrade from the Note 8 to the S9. They actually feel that it’s almost a downgrade because the only thing you are really getting is a better chip and the speakers. The S9+ is different where you aren’t losing items that the Note 8 has other than the S Pen, which in my opinion is a big loss, but you are gaining potentially a camera that’s better in low light. However, again every suggestion I’ve seen was to not upgrade. There was one person who said if you really don’t use the S Pen then maybe. I also wanted to point out what the other individual was trying to point out and that’s the difference in size. It’s S9+ at 158 x 74 x 8.5 mm and the Note 8 at 163 x 75 x 8.6 mm. So the dimensions are almost identical. You may want to hold them both in your hand. One suggestion I have for you is something that happened to me personally. When I had the Note 2 and the Note 3 was coming out, I had a friend who asked me if I was going to upgrade. I said honestly, no. I don’t really draw and really don’t use or need the S Pen. He proceeded to show me just a few things that I was unaware of and then suggested I look at a particular site and YouTube video. I ended up buying the Note 3 and everyone except the Note 5 because it didn’t have the SD card. I was completely unaware of all the capabilities. So before you pass on the Note series as a whole, I would just suggest you really learn all of the capabilities of the S Pen.
The other thing that doesn’t help is Samsung got rid of the old S Note in favor of Samsung Notes which is an inferior app. The original S Note came with Action Memo, Photo Note, Easy Chart, Idea Sketch, Scrapbook, etc. In my opinion it’s probably the best app ever for the S Pen and maybe even the best app period. I was going to say if you’re interested there’s a way to get it installed that I learned from another Thread in this site. However, I just updated my phone to Oreo and it messed up some of it. It looks like we can’t get Easy Chart installed and Photo Note looks to only work in landscape. But this just happened over the weekend, so I’m hoping that someone will figure out a solution. If you do end up with the S9+, I hope you enjoy it!
sll1313 said:
The other thing that doesn’t help is Samsung got rid of the old S Note in favor of Samsung Notes which is an inferior app. The original S Note came with Action Memo, Photo Note, Easy Chart, Idea Sketch, Scrapbook, etc. In my opinion it’s probably the best app ever for the S Pen and maybe even the best app period. I was going to say if you’re interested there’s a way to get it installed that I learned from another Thread in this site. However, I just updated my phone to Oreo and it messed up some of it. It looks like we can’t get Easy Chart installed and Photo Note looks to only work in landscape. But this just happened over the weekend, so I’m hoping that someone will figure out a solution. If you do end up with the S9+, I hope you enjoy it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a post here where some guys teach how to enable scrapbook and all features and apps. Also I modded all those apps to work on nougat but I don't try yet on oreo because i don't need it now. You should try it; I'm agree with you, s note had been the best Samsung app with all features.
Regards
https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-note-8/help/how-to-easy-chart-note-8-t3699950
....
It seems that on oreo is really not working... to bad.
Thanks everyone! For now I am keeping my Note 8. My husband says we just got these 3 months ago and if I sell my Note and only get 550 I still have to pay the difference for the unlocked s9 plus. I just wish we would of waited but we didn't know Samsung would still be giving $300 for the 7 edge. But I have small hands and I know the 9 plus is big too I like where the fingerprint sensor is. I don't use the pen or know about other Notes and what they had but I do love my Note it's fast and I have no complaints and will be getting Oreo on my unlocked in the next couple weeks. All carriers have it now I read. But yesterday I did play with an S9 that was in this little Best Buy mobile at the mall and I made a gallery of like 18 AR Emojis and sent them to myself than deleted them off the phone so I could see what it looked like. I've seen a 9 plus on display too and yesterday he said here hold an 8 plus same as 9 plus. I wouldn't do a regular 9 cause of hardware but I was also thinking I maybe should just wait for the S10 and maybe it will be 5G ready.
We have Sprint and got unlocked so we could switch to another carrier here soon. But thanks for now I will keep my Note if hubby would of let me I probably would of done it though and got a purple s9 plus but I am not unhappy and I love my Note works great. Just hope battery stays the same or is better once we get Oreo. Cause I always had to charge my 7 edge at work in the lower level with no signal my Note I never have to charge.
I'm hoping the battery life is not too dissimilar between the two variants, and either should be more than adequate (@ 4,000 mAh) for most users.
Which variant is recommended in terms of:
- Ease of Rooting
- Anticipated custom ROMs & dev support
I will need the Dual-SIM option - Does this mean the global market version (Exynos) will be my de facto choice?
Any other factors to consider between the two chipsets?
elmor0 said:
I'm hoping the battery life is not too dissimilar between the two variants, and either should be more than adequate (@ 4,000 mAh) for most users.
Which variant is recommended in terms of:
- Ease of Rooting
- Anticipated custom ROMs & dev support
I will need the Dual-SIM option - Does this mean the global market version (Exynos) will be my de facto choice?
Any other factors to consider between the two chipsets?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I honestly dont understand how you dont know that the snapdragon versions in NA have locked BLs and this has been the case since the s7?
To translate that, there will be ZERO development for the NA snaps exynos is the only option .
The HK and latin snapdragons are not locked but historically there hasnt been much development there oddly enough. Im not sure if there are dual sim models on these...i believe there is but dont quote me lol
People complained about battery life on the exynos s9 plus but mine has been great, with a 4000 mah battery should be outstanding!
Hope i managed to clear some stuff up for you
sent from my Exynos S9 plus, Pixel 2 XL or Note FE
Thanks for that.
I assume there'll be Dual-SIM option in the Exynos flavour - N960FD? Would this be the best option in terms of ROM development?
All my exynos phones including my current s9 plus have been dual sim so for sure the note will also.
Exynos is the best and really only choice for development, the HK unlocked snapdragons never get much love in that regard
Direct orders from Samsung UK are all dual SIM.
force70 said:
All my exynos phones including my current s9 plus have been dual sim so for sure the note will also.
Exynos is the best and really only choice for development, the HK unlocked snapdragons never get much love in that regard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Big surprise seeing you here,LOL.......
Quick question regarding Qualcomm (or Exynos,for that matter) & Dual SIM:
I'm aware that China & other Qualcomm markets have Dual SIM options,but,I was wondering if the US & other Single SIM Qualcomm variants are actually the same exact phone,but,the only difference being the SIM Tray & firmware for Single SIM use.
Just curious,as I have T-Mobile DIGITS,so,multi-SIM isn't necessary (for additional T-Mobile numbers) ,as DIGITS allows for up to three lines on one device.
Admittedly,it sounds like a silly question/wishful thinking,but,if it's cheaper to equip all the phones w/dual SIM & just have the firmware & SIM/SD Card holder different...........
KOLIOSIS said:
Big surprise seeing you here,LOL.......
Quick question regarding Qualcomm & Dual SIM:
I'm aware that China & other Qualcomm markets have Dual SIM options,but,I was wondering if the US & other Single SIM Qualcomm variants are actually the same exact phone,but,the only difference being the SIM Tray & firmware for Single SIM use.
Just curious,as I have T-Mobile DIGITS,so,multi-SIM isn't necessary (for additional T-Mobile numbers) ,as DIGITS allows for up to three lines on one device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol.....yeah not a shocker huh haha. Hows things bro?
From what ive read there are some hardware differences between the dual and single sim versions. People have tried converting single sims to duals but Ive never seen it work.
force70 said:
Lol.....yeah not a shocker huh haha. Hows things bro?
From what ive read there are some hardware differences between the dual and single sim versions. People have tried converting single sims to duals but Ive never seen it work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what I figured,but,thought I'd ask you,since you have a lot of time in a lot of various Samsung devices.
I'd really like a Note Active,maybe Samsung will surprise us one year once they've milked the S-Pen for all its worth.
I'm gonna go with a T-Mo variant this year (zero development,I know,I'll make do this year w/a package disabler app or,ADB commands to debloat):
https://www.xda-developers.com/uninstall-carrier-oem-bloatware-without-root-access/
Time to start saving my pocket change for an Exynos model next year........................ :good:
KOLIOSIS said:
That's what I figured,but,thought I'd ask you,since you have a lot of time in a lot of various Samsung devices.
I'd really like a Note Active,maybe Samsung will surprise us one year once they've milked the S-Pen for all its worth.
I'm gonna go with a T-Mo variant this year (zero development,I know,I'll make do this year w/a package disabler app or,ADB commands to debloat):
https://www.xda-developers.com/uninstall-carrier-oem-bloatware-without-root-access/
Time to start saving my pocket change for an Exynos model next year........................ :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The S10 is lining up to be something really special so atock pile the pennies for that.
I skipped the note so I need to back on one, im debating giving the Latin America unlockable snapdragon a try this time around since i always go exynos but not sure yet... saw the blue one today in person and to my surprise its really nice! Was sure id go copper but now maybe not
force70 said:
The S10 is lining up to be something really special so atock pile the pennies for that.
I skipped the note so I need to back on one, im debating giving the Latin America unlockable snapdragon a try this time around since i always go exynos but not sure yet... saw the blue one today in person and to my surprise its really nice! Was sure id go copper but now maybe not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here,went to Best Buy,but,a T-Mobile outlet was on the way & I had questions regarding pre-ordering & trade-in.......
Long story short,I was very surprised to see a working demo on display so soon after the official announcement.
T-Mo had the lavendar purple model,it had a richer/darker look than what I'd seen on the various unboxing vids.
Proceeded to Best Buy to get a look at the blue model (only two color choices we have,regardless of where you buy in the US ATM)
Same w/the blue model,looks much richer/darker in person.
Not too crazy about the yellow S-Pen,I'll replace it as soon as extras become available.........
The down payment on T-Mobile 8/512 model SUX ($529),but,if I were to go w/the 6GB model,might as well pick up the Note 8 & save $280 ($720) vs the 6/128 Note 9 ($999)........
KOLIOSIS said:
Same here,went to Best Buy,but,a T-Mobile outlet was on the way & I had questions regarding pre-ordering & trade-in.......
Long story short,I was very surprised to see a working demo on display so soon after the official announcement.
T-Mo had the lavendar purple model,it had a richer/darker look than what I'd seen on the various unboxing vids.
Proceeded to Best Buy to get a look at the blue model (only two color choices we have,regardless of where you buy in the US ATM)
Same w/the blue model,looks much richer/darker in person.
Not too crazy about the yellow S-Pen,I'll replace it as soon as extras become available.........
The down payment on T-Mobile 8/512 model SUX ($529),but,if I were to go w/the 6GB model,might as well pick up the Note 8 & save $280 ($720) vs the 6/128 Note 9 ($999)........
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You hate the yellow S-Pen? I like it! I would have loved to have been able to buy my black Note 9 with a yellow S-Pen. Should we trade?
pjlphil said:
You hate the yellow S-Pen? I like it! I would have loved to have been able to buy my black Note 9 with a yellow S-Pen. Should we trade?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually settled for the Lavender Purple 8/512,as it was immediately available vs the back-ordered Blue model.
So,I'm good w/what I have,slapped a black sandstone skin on the backside,from GadgetShieldz:
https://www.gadgetshieldz.com/samsung-galaxy-note-9-skins-decals-wraps.html
Hi guys,
So this phone seems amazing for the price and specs, but obviously, it doesn't run android.
Now my question is, I currently have a S7 Edge running the custom ROM (superman rom) and I've done a few custom ROMs so think I'd be confident if there was a guide to also do this to the K20 pro to make it the perfect phone.
My question is:
1. Do they make a guide to flash stock android or some form of android on this phone?
2. does the phone work in the UK on Vodaphone network?
3. is there another phone I should be looking at? the Oneplus 6t doesn't seem much of an upgrade for the money from the S7 Edge I've had for the last 3 years :\
thanks!
domyadig said:
Hi guys,
So this phone seems amazing for the price and specs, but obviously, it doesn't run android.
Now my question is, I currently have a S7 Edge running the custom ROM (superman rom) and I've done a few custom ROMs so think I'd be confident if there was a guide to also do this to the K20 pro to make it the perfect phone.
My question is:
1. Do they make a guide to flash stock android or some form of android on this phone?
2. does the phone work in the UK on Vodaphone network?
3. is there another phone I should be looking at? the Oneplus 6t doesn't seem much of an upgrade for the money from the S7 Edge I've had for the last 3 years :\
thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is Android, just not as you know it.
At the moment the phone hasn't been released globally, so there's very little custom ROM development yet. It'll be released in India next week, but globally in a could of months, maybe. So it'll be a while yet before there's some progress with other ROMs. GSI ROMs work OK for the most part, and Phhuson's AOSP GSI will, obviously give you the purest Android. Though there are still a few issues with them, which for some, myself included, can be lived with, whilst others they will be deal breakers. There are guides for flashing ROMs on this phone. Have a look in the K20 Pro threads here.
The phone will work OK, for the most part in the UK. It lacks band 20. So EE will give the best coverage and O2 the worst. It 'should' be OK on Vodafone and Three with maybe the occasional patch that still relies on band 20 for compete coverage. EE would give you compete coverage and O2 probably wouldn't work outside of major towns and cities.
There's the OnePlus 7 and 7 Pro, though the Pro does have a large jump in price. Close to stock Android out of the box and OnePlus devices have the biggest custom ROM scene.
There's the Mi 9, which has a global version and some movement starting to happen on the custom ROMs.
Or there's the Asus ZenFone 6, which comes with a fairly stock android out of the box. Asus have tentatively reached out to the developer community and provided a small number of xda devs with a free phone, so there should be more development than you'd normally see on an Asus phone.
Robbo.5000 said:
It is Android, just not as you know it.
At the moment the phone hasn't been released globally, so there's very little custom ROM development yet. It'll be released in India next week, but globally in a could of months, maybe. So it'll be a while yet before there's some progress with other ROMs. GSI ROMs work OK for the most part, and Phhuson's AOSP GSI will, obviously give you the purest Android. Though there are still a few issues with them, which for some, myself included, can be lived with, whilst others they will be deal breakers. There are guides for flashing ROMs on this phone. Have a look in the K20 Pro threads here.
The phone will work OK, for the most part in the UK. It lacks band 20. So EE will give the best coverage and O2 the worst. It 'should' be OK on Vodafone and Three with maybe the occasional patch that still relies on band 20 for compete coverage. EE would give you compete coverage and O2 probably wouldn't work outside of major towns and cities.
There's the OnePlus 7 and 7 Pro, though the Pro does have a large jump in price. Close to stock Android out of the box and OnePlus devices have the biggest custom ROM scene.
There's the Mi 9, which has a global version and some movement starting to happen on the custom ROMs.
Or there's the Asus ZenFone 6, which comes with a fairly stock android out of the box. Asus have tentatively reached out to the developer community and provided a small number of xda devs with a free phone, so there should be more development than you'd normally see on an Asus phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for your reply,
the porblem is i have a s7 edge and can't really see why to spend £400+ plus on a phone that doesn't even do 1440p
it needs to have 1440p! lol
domyadig said:
thanks for your reply,
the porblem is i have a s7 edge and can't really see why to spend £400+ plus on a phone that doesn't even do 1440p
it needs to have 1440p! lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because it will now cost you almost double that amount to get a new phone with 1440 display.
Robbo.5000 said:
Because it will now cost you almost double that amount to get a new phone with 1440 display.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there any reason for this? I guess i should wait on a little while then.
domyadig said:
Is there any reason for this? I guess i should wait on a little while then.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. Any flagship phone with a QHD display will be marketed as a premium flagship and come with a premium price, look at the prices of the S10, the OP 7 Pro and the new Xperia phones. If you want a cheaper phone with QHD, then it will be a mid range SoC.
already have S8 Plus, running it as FHD+ to save the battery and can't feel or see the difference
I guess FHD+ is enough and battery friendly
domyadig said:
Hi guys,
So this phone seems amazing for the price and specs, but obviously, it doesn't run android.
Now my question is, I currently have a S7 Edge running the custom ROM (superman rom) and I've done a few custom ROMs so think I'd be confident if there was a guide to also do this to the K20 pro to make it the perfect phone.
My question is:
1. Do they make a guide to flash stock android or some form of android on this phone?
2. does the phone work in the UK on Vodaphone network?
3. is there another phone I should be looking at? the Oneplus 6t doesn't seem much of an upgrade for the money from the S7 Edge I've had for the last 3 years :\
thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I were you right now with a 3 year old phone like you have there would be only one choice and that's the OnePlus 7 pro.definetly worth the few hundred extra for what your getting. Oxygen OS is hands down best software with Best QHD display you can get,if you dont mind full HD go with the normal 7 at a good price.
The redmi k20 pro will work fine but annoying Chinese software,maybe wait till September/October for a Mi 9T pro or November for a OnePlus 7T with possible standard version with a design similar to the k20.
Look at Xiaomi.eu rom for k20 pro if your going with that. It takes away all the bloat of the Chinese version with weekly updates based on Chinese official
I live in India and I'm thinking about getting a new phone. I have two options mostly, buy the OnePlus 8/8 Pro or get a used Note 10 Plus. What should I do? I will get the Exynos version of Note 10. I currently own a Galaxy S10.
oneplus 8 pro is the best android out there for now. saying this cause IMHO (as close to) stock android or oxygenOS is much better than OneUI and will ever be.
I am a Samsung fanboy, so I say get the note 10 as long as you can get one with a snapdragon processor.
dude I'm a s10+ user indian variant imo u should just buy op8 pro coz exynos is the ****tiest flagship processor u can get never buy Samsung flagship in india my biggest regret
mskarthi96 said:
dude I'm a s10+ user indian variant imo u should just buy op8 pro coz exynos is the ****tiest flagship processor u can get never buy Samsung flagship in india my biggest regret
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing against India at all, but you guys do tend to get ****ty Samsung hardware. ?
Go for the OP 8. I regret getting it. Battery life is...well, it's absolute crap on the S10 Exynos variant.
Keep in mind I'm comparing it to my Pixel 2 XL. The physical difference is only 100mAh less on the S10 but it feels like there's a lemon from your science project barely holding on to dear life in there.
Tel864 said:
Nothing against India at all, but you guys do tend to get ****ty Samsung hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yea bro Samsung is just milking Indians I'm thinking of switching to op8 or op8 pro if i get a good deal for this s10+
You either love Samsung or you hate it i guess ? the oneplus in specs wins it against the Samsung. I still would go for the Samsung. I love the updates they provide the last 2 years. And really happy with all the other stuff. Galaxy buds/galaxy watch. ect
It always amazes me when people want comparison of 2 or more phones nobody mentions the physical dimensions.
I went with S10 because I got the biggest real estate/ screen for the most compact size and still be able to use it one-handed.
Hello everyone
Can I find a New Note 9 (N9600) Version? Snapdragon 512GB
All of what I found is refreshed, and they say it has a lot of problems
Thanks
Check Back Market.com
New unlocked N10+256/12gb, Snapdragon, Q, 4G are out there. Got one for $800, perfect condition.
No major issues with these workhorses. My other 10+ is 2 year old now, looks and runs great with a battery replacement being its only repair.
The demand is high right now and likely to get worse.
butchieboy said:
Check Back Market.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They offer
SM-N960U
I want N9600
Thanks
Check and see