We discuss ISOCELL camera technology and new camera features, photos shared on the internet, and Your user photos and videos here.
Features of the Galaxy S5 ISOCELL camera unit:
15.87 MP (5312x2988) 16:9 aspect ratio Samsung BSI ISOCELL sensor
PDAF (phase detection auto focus) for fast auto focus
4k video recording, [email protected]
Live HDR phoro and video preview (Rich Tone available for video)
Software image stabilization
Selective focus
Drama mode
I got my hands on the S5 thx to the guys at XXL GSM, so here's my review:
Since smartphones took over compact cameras as the most popular tool for daily photography, each manufacturer is trying to create it's own camera tech. Sony put the metal wiring behind photo diodes to capture more photons (BSI), HTC introduced the large UltraPixels, and Nokia came up with the large sensor 41MP PureView tech with OIS. Samsung only slightly adjusted it's sensor size (1/2.6") and pixel count (16MP with 1.12um sensor pixels) for it's 5th Galaxy S phone, but with a new sensor manufacturing method, they are introducing higher dynamic range and better color reproduction, in what they call "3D-Backside Illuminated Pixel with Front-Side Deep-Trench Isolation (F-DTI) and Vertical Transfer Gate", or because they're physically isolating pixels to decrease light crosstalk, "ISOCELL". For faster focus they also added a phase detection auto-focus layer (PDAF) delivering ~0.3s focal speed, plus image processing capable of live HDR and HDR video recording. Add sensor-level digital zoom in video, meaning you don't zoom into the 1080p picture anymore but use all the 16MPs, and the S5s new 16:9 sensor delivers a much needed step-up in camera technology.
In good light conditions the S5 rivals any rival phone in snappiness, white balance, color gamut and focal accuracy, also offering healthy amounts of details for print quality images. HDR works seamlessly and sometimes you can't tell it was on, only you realize little to no detail is lost to clipping, it works darn fast too, albeit with some loss of details. Facing directly into sunlight, and dynamic range stays solid without lens issues, color errors or aberrations, and noise levels are kept at a minimal. Jpg compression is slightly above ideal as seen in the smallest details, on the other hand, speeds are excellent, tap-to-focus and tap-to-shot is almost instantaneous, and the app opens and finishes the first shot from cache in about 1.5s, 2,5s from a locked screen. The S5 can take about 7 shots per second in a photo burst (long tap on the photo icon).
Check my full size daylight album with EXIF info here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157643999248563/
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In lower light conditions, as most small sensor smartphones, the S5 is a mixed bag, but an improvement in color reproduction, focal accuracy and snappiness over the S4. Missing are the optical image stabilization (OIS) and longer than 1/17s exposure times (Camera Zoom FX can do 1/10). The Photography app ranges from ISO40 to the very soft ISO2000 shots with manual setup available between ISO100 and ISO800 (Zoom FX does ISO1600 too). In dark conditions, if LED flash not used, you can turn on image stabilization (former night mode) to battle noise, and a multi-exposure of about 3-4 seconds (hold the phone steady) compiles an improved low-light image. HDR works too (with more noise on the sides), and while movement requires stability turned off with higher ISO or flash, optionally Sport Mode, overall I like the accurate color reproduction, which is a problem for many rivals. My biggest criticism besides OIS is the lack of 1/5 1/2 1s and other longer exposure times and manual control for it, at ISO100 with a 1 second exposure the ISOCELL sensor could capture much more details, and since the Lumias have OIS, they are better than the S5 in this category.
Full-size low-light album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157643997683364/
The S5 works well in macro mode too with tight DOF, full-size shots with EXIF here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157643999323404/
Besides setting up ISO, exposure, white balance, resolutions, timer, voice control etc. from the menu, there are Samsung's various camera MODEs. Selective Focus shoots multiple focal shots of the same subject, and you can later select the preferred focal point - foreground, background or both - algorithm is not perfect. In Shot and more the camera takes a series of images before a fixed background, and allows you to choose Best photo, Best face, Drama mode to record multiple phases of a movement on one image, delete unwanted stuff with Eraser and add motion blur via Panning shot. The Shot and more editing menu comes up after taking the shot, later you can access it from the Studio.
Beauty face lets you play around with skin tones and stuff, Virtual tour is like moving around in Street View: you turn and walk around taking several shots in a house for example, and later revisit it virtually moving around with arrows. Dual shot places both camera images on a single shot, Animated photo creates a gif, Sound and shoot allows you to add a voice comment to your shot and Sport mode uses high ISO and wide focus not to miss any fast movement, have this one on with kids around. There are two Panorama modes, regular 2D one with horizontal movement, and the Nexus-like Surround shot that does 3D photosphere, with some inconsistency. Trick for a good sphere is to hold the camera lens at the same spot and move the phone/yourself around it.
Full gallery here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157644000900844/
The Samsung Gallery is quite advanced app, you get several views of you single images, folders and multi-folders with previews, and Air View helps checking content without tapping on it, hovering over with your fingers. Studio gives you a whole lot of options for editing, besides Photoshop-like functions and manipulations, you can make photo montages, trim videos, render slideshows and edit Shot and more mode photos.
Video recording is a great joy on the S5. Sound is clear (though I made the mistake of covering one of the stereo mics due to hand stabilization), software stabilization is quite usable and HDR is good, as well as recording in 60fps for smooth motion, though these are limited to 1080p resolution maximum. There's fast motion up to 8x and slow motion recording down to 1/8 speed without sound, but the real gem is recording the the marvelous 3840x2160 or 4k resolution, which is 4 times the pixel count of 1080p. Eventually we'll get 4k TVs and monitors, heck, tablets and phones come out with 2k/4MP displays nowadays which is almost there, so why not record in 4k right now? Just check the frame captures I posted below to see the details and low level of mp4 compression, you could print some of these frames. The trade-off is the lack of HDR, stabilization and 60FPS at this resolution, and a 5 minute clip limit since each 60 seconds recorded at 47MBit/s takes up around 350MBs. Yeah... In lower light you obviously lose some of the gorgeous details and noise comes up, but it's still quite nice.
60FPS sample 1: https://app.box.com/s/l5fwiyo0rfsm1wj2q328
60FPS sample 2: https://app.box.com/s/o1vlbzgjcel1pslw9nkv
Single frames: (click)
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-12-00c0j9q.jpg
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-17-142fjwg.jpg <--- 4x zoom!
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-17-146ekni.jpg
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-12-00aek89.jpg
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-17-1486j80.jpg
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-17-14tjk0l.png
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-17-14lokom.jpg
http://abload.de/img/vlcsnap-2014-04-12-00kyj81.jpg
More frame captures here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157644093280315/
Conclusion
Overall the S5 camera is highly satisfying in this reviewer's option. I did not find a single case when white balance, saturation or exposure was off, operation is fast unless you have stability mode on in low-light, focus and dynamic range definitely improved, and you can choose among many video and photo options. Where's the biggest step forward? In consistency. Out of 10 shots you'll get good ones at a far better rate than before.
Obviously low light is the S5's weaker point, with less light you get softer images and need flash or high ISO to capture movement, but where you lose details to some rivals, you gain color accuracy, so Samsung's ISOCELL is getting there. Next stop should be OIS, but one thing they could do right now: allowing longer than 1/17s exposure times so we can set low ISO value and capture more dark details. Maybe the future Google camera API will open this option. Overall however, I think the shots speak for themselves: the S5 is a very capable shooter with some room for improvement, and you'll be able to pull many print-ready shots over your long usage. Just be aware: as good as the S5 battery is, things like 100% screen brightness and 4k recording kills the 2800mAh quite quickly, bring a spare battery or power bank.
Check the full gallery with EXIF info here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/
Tips and tricks
- Do multiple shots of the same subject, a good momentum or less handshake can later be selected out of the many
- HDR is one tap away, so do one with and without it, some shots look better with high contrast, others benefit from HDR
- In low light with movement, you have to use LED flash without stability, cause high ISO and longer shutter will not capture these moments with good detail
- In low light with stationary subject however, use stability, optionally LED, no HDR cause of noise. With enough lights you may try using ISO800 with darker results but more details. Much will depend on the amount of available light
- use voice commands to avoid tap-shake, hold the phone steady with two hands, optionally use a monopod
- try and use the photo Modes, some will do fancy images, others come handy like Sport mode to capture fast movement
- between Panorama and Surround Shot, I prefer the latter, cause it captures surroundings vertically too, so result won't be an overly wide image. The trick with photospheres is to not be close to the surrounding objects and have the camera lens in the absolute middle in space, and move the phone and yourself around that spot as the take the sphere images
- try alternative apps if they are better for you: CameraZoom FX, Focal, Google Camera etc. Camera Zoom FX allows 1/10 exposure and ISO1600 manually
- be aware not to cover the top and bottom microphones during video shoot. Best image quality comes from 4k, but image stabilization, 60FPS or HDR only works with 1080p, again best to test all these and later use the one best suited for you or the scene
- use AirView in Gallery, and try out Studio options for your recordings
- bring a power bank with longer photography tours cause a lot of camera usage and 100% brightness eats the battery quickly
Let's analyze! The first two striking qualities of the ISOCELL samples are: 1) eye popping wide dynamic range with rich colors, and 2) relative high noise and softness of the picture. I guess that's the tradeoff here.
Saturation is quite high yet not unrealistic, it simply looks to capture a wide color range, especially impressive in the Angry Birds photo inside. White balance is spot on. As far as Rich Tone (HDR) shots goes, it's pretty impressive as well, look how much more detail is presented without overprocessing the image. On the other hand, noise and softness is always present on these shots, even at low ISO, PureView and Exmor technology seems well ahead in per pixel sharpness. More to come.
men.. you are sure that it photo's from SGS5 ?
Pako7 said:
men.. you are sure that it photo's from SGS5 ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup. :good:
BTW, it appears that selective focus takes 4 photos or at least renders 4 photos, as samples played around with that setting have ~16MB size instead of the regular 4. So I guess the file can be shared and focus changed afterwards, wouldn't mind Google+ and other services allowing you to choose focus after upload.
BoneXDA said:
Yup. :good:
BTW, it appears that selective focus takes 4 photos or at least renders 4 photos, as samples played around with that setting have ~16MB size instead of the regular 4. So I guess the file can be shared and focus changed afterwards, wouldn't mind Google+ and other services allowing you to choose focus after upload.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but why you delete all info? including EXIF.. It's not secret
Again its not isocell ( probably they saving it for Note 4 or GS6 )
no new flash ( same old led flash )
indoors photos still look like oil paint -->> no OIS indoors and low light images will suck
overall i think it will be like most of Galaxy flagships : great images when there is enough light but when there is not the image will suck
I think it is ISOCELL technology, the photos on PhoneArena are really not bad at and higher 5s z1.
yahyoh said:
Again its not isocell ( probably they saving it for Note 4 or GS6 )
no new flash ( same old led flash )
indoors photos still look like oil paint -->> no OIS indoors and low light images will suck
overall i think it will be like most of Galaxy flagships : great images when there is enough light but when there is not the image will suck
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is the 16MP ISOCELL sensor they developed.
Pako7 said:
but why you delete all info? including EXIF.. It's not secret
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh, sorry about EXIF, I think that's the upload site doing, not sure why.
BoneXDA said:
Oh, sorry about EXIF, I think that's the upload site doing, not sure why.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
please re-upload a few full shot on other fileshare
These are apparently the official Samsung Galaxy S5 samples, normal vs. HDR
source, full size: http://www.mobile-review.com/articles/2014/mwc-samsung-galaxy-s5.shtml
Skander1998 said:
It is the 16MP ISOCELL sensor they developed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
why they didn't mention anything about it in the unpacking event ? even the official spec didnt say anything about isocell
all i can see some news writers bs
yahyoh said:
why they didn't mention anything about it in the unpacking event ? even the official spec didnt say anything about isocell
all i can see some news writers bs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They just started mass production for the 16MP ISOCELL sensor.
http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/?p=34630
The article also mentions the new octa for the octa variant for the S5, also beginning mass production.
Samsung doesn't mention specific hardware specs anymore.
4k video sample in dim light:
yahyoh said:
why they didn't mention anything about it in the unpacking event ? even the official spec didnt say anything about isocell
all i can see some news writers bs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Samsung never EVER goes technical about sensor tech, check their track record, they don't.
It is a vastly different sensor to the Exmors however, closer to Samsung own's Galaxy Cameras (softness of image, noise), but far superior in color balance and dynamic range, which is exactly what ISOCELL is all about. Add that announcers did show off new camera HW features and Android Authority claims ISOCELL was confirmed to them, so it's almost certainly that tech.
So where do you get your information that it isn't?
BoneXDA said:
All right, new stills from GSM Arena, normal vs. rich tone (HDR), direct linking so EXIF info should be included. Level of details don't justify 16MPs, but color reproduction and HDR quality is quite awesome!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, but I saw this "photo".. It's not include full EXIF (view software version - Adobe Photoshop Ligthroom )
Pako7 said:
Thanks, but I saw this "photo".. It's not include full EXIF (view software version - Adobe Photoshop Ligthroom )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use this site, just copy image link:
http://regex.info/exif.cgi?
BoneXDA said:
Use this site, just copy image link:
http://regex.info/exif.cgi?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmm.. you don't understand
I know how will view full_exif. Full EXIF will be for example such as (sorry by russian lang)
Pako7 said:
hmm.. you don't understand
I know how will view full_exif. Full EXIF will be for example such as (sorry by russian lang)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure I understand you.
GSM Arena samples show EXIF info just fine.
BoneXDA said:
I'm not sure I understand you.
GSM Arena samples show EXIF info just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok..
ps.. View snapshots from gsmarena, I found that on MWC_devices used camera modules :
16 Mp
ISP - Qualcomm
Sensor manufacturer - Samsung LSI
Release date - January 2014
Manufacturer of the module - is not yet known
BoneXDA said:
I'm not sure I understand you.
GSM Arena samples show EXIF info just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is what he means, the S4 pic shows which fw the device was running, while the S5 pic shows Photoshop.
NOTE: currently, as of KitKat 4.4.4 and firmware version NK4 (Snap805) / NK5 (Exynos) and all versions before, this article only applies to Snapdragon 805 users. Exynos users in no way can improve the image quality of their shots and are, consequently, advised to use the stock Camera app. Consequently, they won't learn much from this article either.
Introduction
This article only concentrates on getting the best possible image quality while shooting in GOOD light, that is, when the phone can use as low sensitivities (ISO's) as possible, resulting in typically low noise levels. The Lightroom etc. settings I present are, consequently, typical for low-ISO shots taken in good light. Should you be interested in low-light shooting, head for THIS article instead. I don't discuss any kind of HDR, including that of the Note4 camera app, here. Please read THIS article for HDR tips and tricks.
If you've read my previous posts / articles on the camera of the Note4, you know very well the stock Camera app is not capable of very good results because it applies unnecessary noise reduction and sharpening, practically destroying the image quality. Up to now, I've recommended Snap camera HDR (“Snap” for short; PlayStore link; please see my original low-light article for more info on obtaining the latest beta) as an all-in-one app for shooting both video (including 4K) and stills. It may not have the best GUI (in this regard, the FV-5 apps (Camera/Cinema) are far superior) and lack essential features like exposure bracketing (see my HDR article linked to above) but it's the only app that can produce images making full use of the hardware capabilities. For example, it's the only app to be able to go under the shutter speed of 1/15s I know of (please see my above-linked low-light article for more info on this very subject).
If you really want to achieve the best image quality, you'll, as you'll see below, do a little bit of additional work. This is what this entire article is all about: a very detailed one on color noise reduction (CNR for short) and sharpness increasing during post processing in
- Lightroom on the desktop
- Neat Image on the desktop
- Topaz DeNoise on the desktop
- Lightroom Mobile on Android (the iOS works in exactly the same way)
- Photo Mate R2 on Android
compared this to shooting with Snap camera HDR using its built-in CNR and sharpening support.
1.1 Recommended reading before reading on
If you don't know much of the theory of photography please read THIS and THIS for more info on image noise and sharpening, respectively.
Note that the former link takes you to Part I of the article series; the second one is HERE and is a hugely recommended read because, among other things, it clearly explains the differences between luminance and color noise. It's the latter of these that I'm specifically discussing in this article, the former being not as unnatural.
The article on sharpening provides several examples of oversharpening artifacts. It's these artifacts that - along with color noise - we'll try to minimize while keeping our shots sufficiently sharp.
1.2 The goal - why do you want to read this article at all?
To produce as good images as possible. Regretfully, the stock Camera app coming with the Note4 applies far too much CNR and oversharpening even when shooting in broad daylight, at base ISO. In the comparative examples below, I show you several crops that do show this in practice.
1.3 Three ways of shooting
There are three ways of shooting. Below, I introduce them in decreasing complexity (need for additional work) and, regretfully, strictly in this order decreasing achievable image quality too.
1.3.1 Using a camera app producing as little-processed images as possible and (possibly) using desktop apps to make these images more natural-looking
First and foremost, if you don't want to lose any bit of (later) achievable image quality, you must save your images with as little processing as possible. This is exactly what is done when using Snap camera HDR with the non-default settings ("Samsung camera mode" on, sharpening set to zero and JPEG output quality set to "Best") I recommend.
However, the output won't really be eye-friendly then, even if you shoot in the most optimal conditions, that is, in as much light as possible. If you do have the time for desktop (x86) post processing, you can achieve significantly better image quality than with Android-only image processing, let it be done straight in the camera app doing the actual shooting or another Android app you use for post processing.
In the following two subsections, I show you several examples of the typical noise reduction and sharpening you can achieve with high-quality desktop tools working on as little-processed input as possible. As you'll see, the results they produce are not only significantly more eye-pleasing than the original, somewhat noisy and definitely soft (RAW-like) output of Snap camera HDR, but also orders of magnitude better than the absolutely messy output of the stock Camera app.
1.3.1.1 Noise in the near-RAW output images
The sensor of the Note4 has relatively small pixels. This, as you are already aware of, results in a low(ish) signal-to-noise ratio, meaning visible color noise even in the best conditions if absolutely no noise reduction is used. (Actually, you'd need significantly larger pixels (full frame, assuming a Bayer filter) and/or special filter (APS-C sensor size paired with Fuji's X-Trans filter array) arrangements to achieve the total lack of visible noise.)
Let me show an example of this. The following crop (cropped from the original image) shows visible color image noise in the near-black window area:
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And yes, this shot was taken in broad daylight at base ISO.
Note that, in section 1.3.1.2.1 below (obviously, in the first, unaltered, almost-RAW crop), you can also spot some color noise in the tree trunk. However, on dark, homogenous surfaces like, in this case, a black window it's far easier to spot color noise – and to fine-tune CNR while trying to (almost) completely get rid of the noise.
For comparison, here are the already CNR'ed (and sharpened, see next section) output crops of the three desktop tools (Lightroom, Neat Image and, finally, the Lightroom + Topaz DeNoise combo) I'll introduce in section 1.3.1.2.1 below:
Lightroom:
Neat Image:
Lightroom + Topaz DeNoise:
1.3.1.2 Lack of sharpness in the near-RAW output images
The output of the sensor, generally, is pretty soft with most cameras (not only with the Note4). This is caused by the not very good lens (or one operating far from its "sweet spot"), the Bayer / X-Trans filter sensor as opposed to Foveon sensors paired with tack-sharp lens. This (relative) softness can, purely in software, somewhat fixed. This is called 'sharpening'. Unfortunately, you can't use arbitrarily high amounts of sharpening, as it'll lead to the appearance of both very ugly oversharpening halos around the contrasty edges and much more pronounced luminance noise.
Let me show you a pair of crops from the same original image and, then, compare it to both a decently-sharpened one (still without major oversharpening artifacts) and, finally, that of the stock Camera app, showing absolutely awful oversharpening halos.
1.3.1.2.1 Trees (oversharpening halos):
The original, non-sharpened image (shot with absolutely zero software sharpening):
(original, full image)
After processing with one of the most widely used desktop apps for image post processing (with the parameters CNR=10, Sharpening=40, everything else being default, incl. LNR=0), Lightroom 5.7:
(original, full image)
and another one from the, for private, non-commercial use (with some not very severe restrictions), free(!!) and multiplatform (Windows, Mac and even Linux) Neat Image, with LNR 0, CNR set to maximum and Sharpness also set to maximum:
(original, full image)
Finally, the output of another excellent desktop noise handler, Topaz DeNoise (5.1.0) with Clean Color set to 50 and all other settings at default after Reset and additional Lightroom Sharpening of 40 (that is, the same as with the Lightroom-only image above):
(original, full image)
And this is how the stock Camera app renders the same:
(original, full image)
In the last image, notice the absolutely hideous "edges" around the tree trunk over the bright wall. (I'll also discuss with the visible disappearing of fine detail on the trunk of the tree.) Also, in all previous images but the very first (the one originally saved by Snap camera HDR), notice the lack of color noise (which is somewhat present in the original Snap output in the dark windows and on the dark brown tree trunk) and the significantly higher sharpness (but still without annoying oversharpening halos).
1.3.1.2.2 Bush (sharpening, smearing):
The original, non-sharpened image as saved by Snap:
(Note that the original, full images are at exactly the same URL as in the previous section. Also, for the next three shots, the processing parameters are also equal to the ones I've already listed above.):
Again, notice how soft this shot is compared to the next images – that's because of the complete lack of any software post-sharpening.
Lightroom (CNR=10, Sharpening=40):
Neat Image:
Topaz DeNoise:
Finally, for comparison, here's the output of the stock Camera app:
The last image is, as with all the other stock Camera app crops, absolutely awful. There is some major detail smearing, the color saturation is heavily reduced and the edges oversharpened. Yes, another example of why in no way recommend the stock Camera app unless you absolutely need to make use of its features.
1.3.2 Post-processing on Android & most known problems of lower-quality CNR algorithms
In the previous section, I've shown you examples of the achievable quality when, with strictly desktop (x86, true Windows / OS X and, in some cases, even Linux) tools, processing near-RAW images shot on the Note4. In this section, I elaborate on doing the post processing right on your Android phone. As you'll see, the results will be substandard compared to the desktop-based results. Nevertheless, they'll still deliver better-quality results than using the in-app CNR and sharpening features of Snap camera HDR.
1.3.2.1 Photo Mate R2
The following are the same crops as above from the well-known, quite expensive, (for Android) professional Android app “Photo Mate R2” (current, tested version: 2.6). The parameters I used (and found the most optimal): CNR=30, Luminance=High quality, Sharpening=75. (Original, full image; screenshot of the settings)
Black window:
Tree:
Bush:
As you can see, while these crops are still orders of magnitude better than those of the stock Camera app and still deliver more eye-pleasing (that is, significantly sharper and definitely less noisy) images than the near-RAW output of Snap, it can't match the output of the desktop tools.
If you do compare these results to those of the three desktop tools introduced in Section 1.3.1, you'll immediately see that CNR, while not being as effective as with them (just compare the color noise in the black window shot!) has resulted in a significant drop in color saturation. Just compare the saturation of the color brown in the bush shot to those of the desktop tools.
1.3.2.1.1 Why can't you just increase Photo Mate R2's CNR to reach the level of cleanness of desktop tools?
Unfortunately, it's not only color saturation that suffers when increasing the CNR level in Photo Mate R2 – as opposed to the three desktop tools.
Simple(r) and/or faster CNR algorithms just smear colors. This was the major reason (and not the further decrease of color saturation) that I simply couldn't further increase the CNR level in Photo Mate R2. Let's take a look at the following crop at CRN=30 (that is, the above (section 1.3.2) one):
and compare it to the CNR=40 case, that is, with slightly increased CNR strength:
Do you notice the difference? Surely you do. The bench's thin, vertical boards look completely unnatural (as if they were discoloured) in the second case, while they don't exhibit similar problems in the first one. In order to avoid this, you absolutely must stay with lower noise reduction levels.
Now, let's compare how the bench is rendered by the top desktop PP tools (incl. the three introduced in Section 1.3.1) at their significantly higher (again, they got rid of the color noise much(!) more effectively) CNR level:
Lightroom:
Neat Image:
(Sharpening = 75)
(Sharpening = max)
Topaz:
1.3.2.2 Lightroom Mobile
Regretfully, the otherwise (for Adobe's Creative Cloud subscribers) free Lightroom Mobile (LRM for short) is absolutely a no-go if you want to do Android-only post-processing.
1.3.2.2.1 Need for a “true” desktop
First and foremost: LRM doesn't do any kind of mobile-side processing, unless you do share your images right from the client (then, however, you can only share a low-res, pretty much useless one). It just communicates back the processing parameters you set and you'll need to use the desktop LR to post process your images based on the parameters you set in the GUI.
For example, the three levels of Detail > Noise Reduction sets the following parameters for further (again, desktop-based) processing:
Low: Luminance: 25/ CNR: 25
Med: 50/25
High: 75/25
(The original setting, that is, the one if you don't set any NR level, is 0/25).
That is, there's absolutely no way to get desktop-level output on mobile, without involving any kind of desktop post processing. This also means that, if you directly access the, on mobile, (seemingly) edited images synchronized back to the cloud in
- either the desktop file system (in its temporary directory, via "Show in Finder/Explorer")
- or via explicitly exporting it using the "Export" button in the bottom left corner of the Library view and setting "Image format" from "JPEG" to "Original" in the "File Setting" group in the export dialog,
all you get is an unprocessed (original) image.
1.3.2.2.2 The built-in “Share” feature
And if you do share on-mobile processed images right from the client, it'll be downsized, no matter what you do. HERE is the output of the LRM-postprocessed and, then, in-app shared image. A crop of the same bench:
See the VAST difference in resolution?
1.3.2.2.3 LRM Summary
All in all, you can forget about LRM right away if you want to stay away from desktop PP. Even the (otherwise, if you can do desktop PP, not recommended)
- denoise / sharpening in Snap and
- CNR in Photo Mate R2
produces waaaay better results because they don't downsize their output, unlike "Share" in LRM.
Also note that, as has been explained above, the CNR setting LRM uses will always be 25, which is definitely an overkill for Note4 base ISO shots. This is why I recommend against using the presets of LRM – you'll, most probably, want to decrease the CNR on the desktop so you'll need to touch the sliders there, making setting NR on the mobile unnecessary. Just manually decrease CNR to (if you shoot at base ISO) around 10 in the desktop LR, it'll produce the best possible compromise. And, again, then, the output will significantly be better than with either Snap or Photo Mate R2's built-in CNR options. (The latter remark also applies to sharpening quality of Snap.)
All in all, you can't expect much from post processing on Android. Desktop tools will always produce significantly better results. Only use these (along with shooter apps already supporting in-app denoising / sharpening) if you really can't use a full computer for image post-processing.
1.3.3 Using a camera app with built-in CNR and sharpening
Assuming you want the fastest possible way of sharing your images with, for the Average Joe, more pleasing “looks” (read: no color noise, sharp), you may want to give a try to the built-in CNR and sharpening support of the camera app you use. Ideally, support for sharpening / CNR should be achievable right in the app you shoot with. This is the classic case of social shooting in, say, pubs, when you want to share your shots right away (as soon as possible) and, consequently, can't wait for editing your images in another Android app on the same phone after shooting, let alone transferring your images to an x86 computer for post processing (and, consequently, later sharing).
I have bad news for you: Snap has definitely bad sharpening and not very good CNR support. (Nevertheless, even these, when used, produce better images than the stock Camera app's complete mess.) Let's start with the latter.
1.3.3.1 CNR in Snap
1.3.3.1.1 Enabling CNR
In Snap, CNR isn't enabled by default. Enabling it needs to be done via ticking in the “Photo > Denoise” checkbox annotated with a rectangle below:
Note that I also annotated the “Sharpness” menu (with an arrow), in which you can configure post-sharpening. (Generally, as you already know, you'll want to completely zero it out, unless you really need to do the sharpening right during your shooting.)
Also note that, in order for the Denoise checkbox to be displayed, you must enable “Others > Show Advanced Settings”, also annotated below:
1.3.3.1.2 And what about the quality?
As I've already hinted on, you can't expect much from Snap's CNR algorithm. The good news, however, is that isn't worse than that of the standalone Photo Mate R2. That is, if sharpening isn't important (and, again, you absolutely must do everything on Android), you can just use Snap's built-in CNR and won't end up having to load the same image to Photo Mate R2 afterwards.
1.3.3.1.2.1 Snap, “Denoise” disabled
A pair of Snap crops of the original image shot without “Denoise” enabled:
Bench:
Black window:
1.3.3.1.2.2 Snap, “Denoise” enabled
And with “Denoise” enabled (original, full image):
Bench:
Black window:
1.3.3.1.2.3 Photo Mate R2, CNR=30, Sharpening=0
Finally, compare the above crops to those of Photo Mate R2 with CNR=30 and without(!) any kind of sharpening in order to provide level playing field for the two apps. Original image; the settings I used.
Again, as has been explained in Section 1.3.2.1.1, you won't want to go over CNR=30 with Photo Mate R2 because of the major smearing effects. In that section, I've shown you sharpened crops. Note that the sharpened black window crop is HERE (screenshot of the settings used)
Bench:
Black window:
1.3.3.1.2.4 Summary
As you can see, unlike Photo Mate R2 with its separate color and luminance NR sliders, Snap applies a sizable amount of luminance NR as well. Consequently, the resulting image is, as you may have already noticed, significantly softer.
After all, luminance NR equals to blurring the image itself, and not “only” the colors on it. Also, luminance noise is far more natural, film-like and, consequently, acceptable. This is why I, generally, don't apply luminance NR to my low-ISO shots. Too bad Snap doesn't allow for separate noise reduction – currently, luminance NR is just too heavy-handed and results in pretty soft results. (Nevertheless, needless to say, these results are still way superior to those of the stock Camera app!)
1.3.3.1.2.5 Color saturation decrease
Note that, as with Photo Mate R2 (and unlike with the three desktop apps when properly configured), the color saturation definitely decreases in Snap's shots. Just compare the intensity (saturation) of the brown of the branches in the following shots, starting with the non-denoised Snap original:
Snap, denoised:
Photo Mate R2, CNR=30, no sharpening:
(note that you can find the output of desktop apps, along with the absolutely awful stock Camera app, in section “1.3.1.2.2 Bush”. Technically, the non-denoised Snap original can also be found in that section; however, for easy comparison without having to scroll much, I've repeated it here.)
1.3.3.2 Sharpening in Snap
As has been mentioned several times, in order to get the best possible results via post processing, you REALLY want to set Photo > Sharpening to zero (screenshot of the whereabouts of the menu item is in section “1.3.3.1.1 Enabling CNR” above). In this section, I scrutinize the sharpening quality of the app. Regretfully, it's pretty bad; no wonder I recommend getting rid of it entirely.
Now, let's take a look at the default (3) settings:
Tree:
Compare this screenshot to those of in section “1.3.1.2.1 Trees (halos)” above. See why I don't recommend using sharpening in Snap at all?
Naturally, the maximum sharpness level, 6, results in even worse output, with even more prominent sharpening halos:
Nevertheless, should you really need on-Android sharpening and want to refrain from using Photo Mate R2, you can still use a sharpness value “1”. It'll correspond to 50% (or even more) sharpening in Photo Mate R2.
2. Tips and tricks for desktop post-processing
Above, we'll seen the relative quality of the three approaches:
1. desktop (section “1.3.1 Using a camera app producing as little-processed images as possible (and possibly using desktop apps to make these images more natural-looking)”)
2. Android with an additional app (section “1.3.2 Post-processing on Android & most known problems of lower-quality CNR algorithms”)
3. not using any kind of post processing but using the built-in NR and/or sharpening of the camera app itself (section “1.3.3 Using a camera app with built-in CNR and sharpening”)
We have seen the achievable quality gradually decreased in the above order.
In this chapter, I provide you with other tips on post processing Note4 images on the desktop; that is, the best way to achieve the best image quality.
Basically, I've found the, for private (non-commercial) use, if you accept the (not very restrictive) limitations, free “Neat Image” and “Topaz DeNoise” somewhat better than Lightroom. Nevertheless, even Lightroom can produce significantly better results than anything on Android, even the expensive Photo Mate R2.
(to be continued!)
(reserved for future updates)
(reserved for future updates 2)
(reserved for future updates 3)
excellent analysis as usual. much appreciated!
Great work. You are legend Menneisyys.
Sweet
As you may have noticed, Microsoft have released version 2 of their absolutely excellent panorama stitcher app, Image Composite Editor (ICE for short) with several new features, including being able to create panoramas out of videos. As I'm a big fan of panoramas and always loved ICE for its speed, accuracy and being free, I've very thoroughly tested the new feature, particularly in order to find out whether it can significantly increase the quality of panoramas one can create with the Samsung Note 4, the, otherwise, best and most versatile high-end phone today.
During my tests, I shot 4K videos in 32-33 seconds for a 360-degree turn (to maximize resolution, in portrait orientation) and, then, processed it with ICE. First, five stitches (three of them with inline crops): four by ICE and one created by the dedicated “Panorama” mode of the stock Camera app:
ISO Auto, stock Camera app:
Flickr
ISO 800 (max.), stock Camera app:
Flickr
ISO Auto, Snap camera HDR, 48 Mbps, 0 Sharpening:
Flickr
ISO 1600 (this has no effect on the end result), Snap camera HDR, 48 Mbps, 0 Sharpening:
Flickr
OOC image:
Flickr
Please check out my writeup HERE for more info on the intricacies of the above shots – what one wants to pay attention to, how to properly assess noise reduction etc.
Note: as with non-sharpened Snap camera HDR shots, the untrained eye may find the results of Snap camera HDR too soft. After all, as I always recommend, I've shot the video with fully disabled sharpening. After, in the built-in “Preview” app of OS X, some sharpening applied (in Preview, maximal) to the above shot, it becomes far more eye-candy:
My remarks:
1. the 4K + ICE combo produces significantly more detailed panos than the OOC panos shot in the dedicated “Panorama” mode of the stock app, particularly if you're on a Snapdragon 805 CPU-based Note4 and use “Snap camera HDR” at its 48 Mbps, 0-sharpening mode for recording.
2, it extracts far (about an order of magnitude) fewer input images for stitching than the number of separate image slices used by the dedicated “Panorama” mode of the stock app. Basically, in general, it uses some 32-34 images for a 360-degree turn (meaning one image each 12 degrees).
This means that, if there are stitching errors because of the parallax error, they will be more far more severe than with the stock app. Some example of them is annotated in the following crop of the above Snap 1600 shot (original):
With the stock app, thanks to the much higher frequency of sensor sampling, such huge errors aren't at all common.
Nevertheless, Samsung's implementation of isn't as fast as, say, that of Apple. Apple's panorama mode uses an even higher sampling frequency, resulting in parallax errors not being present in the target pano almost at all, assuming shooting the panorama just turning around and not paying attention to trying to rotate the phone around its vertical axis to minimize the parallax errors.
(Note that by restricting the panorama area to 2 some 0.3 seconds in the input video (see THIS screenshot), ICE only used two input frames. As these frames were different from the ones extracted from the video for the 360-degree panorama, the resulting stitched images has different parallax error-induced stitching images – in this case, none. See THIS for the resulting (of course, not very wide) pano.)
3, as with still images, videos created by the stock Note4 Camera app are heavily oversharpened after applying some very serious and, in good light, absolutely unnecessary noise reduction. This means that, if you do have a Snapdragon 805 CPU-based Note4, you'll, as with still shots, want to use Snap camera HDR for shooting 4K video instead. (Note that you must use the configuration settings HERE to make it shoot usable 4K footage.)
All in all,
if you cannot use an iPhone (or, if the smaller sensor and subsequent worse noise performance and lower dynamic range isn't a problem, iPad) for shooting sweep panos, you'll want to prefer shooting 4K video with Snap camera HDR and processing the end results using ICE. It may deliver significantly better-quality results than the Panorama mode of the stock Camera app. Nevertheless, as it doesn't sample the sensor very often, you'll really want to minimize parallax error while shooting. The above panos were shot without trying to do so – I just turned around my axis so that, introducing a lot of parallax errors, I could find out how ICE handles them.
One of the best thread on Note4 board I've ever seen. :good:
There is no option for denoise even if I have got the 6.3.0. The advanced parameters do no change in photo mode. I'm running 4.4.4
Help appreciated
akshaypatil869 said:
There is no option for denoise even if I have got the 6.3.0. The advanced parameters do no change in photo mode. I'm running 4.4.4
Help appreciated
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Denoise is definitely here on my KitKat Snap805 as of 6.3.0. Is yours also a Snap805 phone, or an Exynos one?
2. Nevertheless, as I've explained above, I don't really recommend it as its denoising algorithm isn't very good. So, you don't lose much.
Menneisyys said:
1. Denoise is definitely here on my KitKat Snap805 as of 6.3.0. Is yours also a Snap805 phone, or an Exynos one?
2. Nevertheless, as I've explained above, I don't really recommend it as its denoising algorithm isn't very good. So, you don't lose much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn, I thought it was Snapdragon. I was under the impression that 910c pointed out to snapdragon. I am disappointed.
akshaypatil869 said:
Damn, I thought it was Snapdragon. I was under the impression that 910c pointed out to snapdragon. I am disappointed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have bad news - Snap camera HDR will not deliver better IQ for you, then.
Yes, I read about it. My parents had got the phone under my advice from this link.
http://www.xcite.com/phones/mobile-...mp-4g-lte-wi-fi-smartphone-5-7-inch-gold.html
See for yourself how misleading the specs are.
Should I sue them? ;D
akshaypatil869 said:
Yes, I read about it. My parents had got the phone under my advice from this link.
http://www.xcite.com/phones/mobile-...mp-4g-lte-wi-fi-smartphone-5-7-inch-gold.html
See for yourself how misleading the specs are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, they've completely messed it up - "Snapdragon 805" as the CPU and "Octa Core " as "No of Cores".
Should I sue them? ;D
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, if image quality is of enormous importance for you and you've purchased the phone from them, believing it's Snap805-based, because you wanted to make use of the additional image quality offered by near-RAW saving, you could ask them for an exchange into a real 805-based model.
Don't forget to mention Samsung's Lolli update doesn't support RAW export so the only way to have natural photos on the handset is going the Snap HDR way on Snap805-based devices.
Menneisyys said:
Yup, they've completely messed it up - "Snapdragon 805" as the CPU and "Octa Core " as "No of Cores".
Well, if image quality is of enormous importance for you and you've purchased the phone from them, believing it's Snap805-based, because you wanted to make use of the additional image quality offered by near-RAW saving, you could ask them for an exchange into a real 805-based model.
Don't forget to mention Samsung's Lolli update doesn't support RAW export so the only way to have natural photos on the handset is going the Snap HDR way on Snap805-based devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no need to do such things on Exynos variables because it does offer much better image/video quality but if you like to flash kernel stuffs then Qualcomm based is prefered.
Personally, I will pick the Exynos one as Android is mature now I can live with stock kernel and I real won't have time to process every image and video. The only real reason now to get Qualcomm is Exynos still no offer dual band.
You can watch it started from 7:32 ... N9100(S805) vs N910U(Exynos)
TheEndHK said:
There is no need to do such things on Exynos variables because it does offer much better image/video quality
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm afraid you're wrong. While I haven't had the chance of directly comparing the two models' image quality under exactly the same circumstances, in well-controlled comparative tests, all Exynos photos I've seen exhibited exactly the same problems as Snapdragon 805-based ones and were equally as bad.
The only difference between the two models is the ability of Snap camera HDR to access the image before the latter's undergoing noise reduction and sharpening (but after WB). This is why it's capable of exporting almost-RAW images with the right settings (basically, Sharpness at zero).
@Menneisyys again a amazing post, thx for your time, 2 thumbs-up
Menneisyys said:
I'm afraid you're wrong. While I haven't had the chance of directly comparing the two models' image quality under exactly the same circumstances, in well-controlled comparative tests, all Exynos photos I've seen exhibited exactly the same problems as Snapdragon 805-based ones and were equally as bad.
The only difference between the two models is the ability of Snap camera HDR to access the image before the latter's undergoing noise reduction and sharpening (but after WB). This is why it's capable of exporting almost-RAW images with the right settings (basically, Sharpness at zero).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think I'm wrong because there are a couple of sites to compare image quality between Exynos & Qualcomm(not must be Note4, but also on Note3 or S5). All the results are same just like in the video link above, Qualcomm got huge noise reduction and hence loss many details and your solution is to avoid the stock camera to do this because Snap Camera HDR can stop the noise reduction and sharpening. Furthermore, I have to point out Exynos usually got better focus speed and accurate rate because the ISP is better than Qualcomm one so it is not only just about the image quality.
I forgot all the links so I can't share the information here but I'll try to find them out later. There is also a thread talk about Note4 image quality in a HK forum and because we can buy Exynos and Qualcomm easily in HK(Samsung does launch all of them here) and a couple of them who tried both model reported Exynos got better quality and focus.
I've to admit your method is even better(nice trying :good in terms of quality because not only hijack the denoise but also included the sharpen processing but it gonna spend some time on each image to do after-processing. Personally, I will pick Exynos for convenience because I always record videos and impossible for me to process all of them(especially 4K), I will need an i7 PC to do that overnight.
I'm already planning to get S6 on April, let's see how capable of the new camera.
I don't get hdr is a separate mode and just not on by default for taking regular pictures? Wouldn't you want hdr on most of the time?
worldsoutro said:
I don't get hdr is a separate mode and just not on by default for taking regular pictures? Wouldn't you want hdr on most of the time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because they wanted to appeal to photographers and HDR is a dirty word.
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Hi worldsoutro,
Photography is all about capturing light. And HDR is just another way of doing it. But it's not main way of taking photos. So, it totally makes sense to have HDR as an option. HDR stands for High Dynamic Range, which in return allows you to combine whites (bright spots) and blacks (shadows) in one image. In order to create such image, the camera has to capture at least three images.
1st - under-exposed (this image will give you very nice and dark shadows).
2nd - correct exposure (normal photo).
3rd - over-exposed (capturing those whites, sunlight, anything bright).
Then software will take all three shots and compose one image. The three images is a bare minimum, and there are methods that use 7 or more images to combine into one.
The biggest downside of HDR is color representation. All colors are going to be in extreme ranges. Also taking HDR photos is probably heavy on the battery, since you are probably capturing more than one image very quickly and processing it (HDR in Huawei might all be simulated via software as well, so it might be just taking one image and processes it to make it look like HDR).
If someone has info about how Huawei has implemented HDR photography, please post! I'm actually curious now.
zed'sded_bb said:
Hi worldsoutro,
Photography is all about capturing light. And HDR is just another way of doing it. But it's not main way of taking photos. So, it totally makes sense to have HDR as an option. HDR stands for High Dynamic Range, which in return allows you to combine whites (bright spots) and blacks (shadows) in one image. In order to create such image, the camera has to capture at least three images.
1st - under-exposed (this image will give you very nice and dark shadows).
2nd - correct exposure (normal photo).
3rd - over-exposed (capturing those whites, sunlight, anything bright).
Then software will take all three shots and compose one image. The three images is a bare minimum, and there are methods that use 7 or more images to combine into one.
The biggest downside of HDR is color representation. All colors are going to be in extreme ranges. Also taking HDR photos is probably heavy on the battery, since you are probably capturing more than one image very quickly and processing it (HDR in Huawei might all be simulated via software as well, so it might be just taking one image and processes it to make it look like HDR).
If someone has info about how Huawei has implemented HDR photography, please post! I'm actually curious now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your description of combining exposures is correct, but you got the reasons for the different exposures wrong, underexposed is to retain detail in highlights, and overexposed is to retain detail in the shadows.
Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
zed'sded_bb said:
Hi worldsoutro,
Photography is all about capturing light. And HDR is just another way of doing it. But it's not main way of taking photos. So, it totally makes sense to have HDR as an option. HDR stands for High Dynamic Range, which in return allows you to combine whites (bright spots) and blacks (shadows) in one image. In order to create such image, the camera has to capture at least three images.
1st - under-exposed (this image will give you very nice and dark shadows).
2nd - correct exposure (normal photo).
3rd - over-exposed (capturing those whites, sunlight, anything bright).
Then software will take all three shots and compose one image. The three images is a bare minimum, and there are methods that use 7 or more images to combine into one.
The biggest downside of HDR is color representation. All colors are going to be in extreme ranges. Also taking HDR photos is probably heavy on the battery, since you are probably capturing more than one image very quickly and processing it (HDR in Huawei might all be simulated via software as well, so it might be just taking one image and processes it to make it look like HDR).
If someone has info about how Huawei has implemented HDR photography, please post! I'm actually curious now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Over-exposure gives usable shadows and under-exposure usable highlights [emoji16]
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So in a bright sunny day should I always shoot with HDR?
Good catch guys. Yeah, overexposure allows you to get all details in the shaded areas and preserve them. While underexposed photo would exaggerate light sources.
I suppose we are turning this into HDR topic altogether.
worldsoutro - I think you can use HDR whenever you think you will like the result. Photography is art in the end. I would say that during midday hours (when the sun light is the harshest) and at night (with appropriate light) HDR can give you some cool results.
Play around with different modes. Check out Pro mode too. You basically have a full control over the scene. It's pretty cool.
Hope it all was helpful. Cheers!
Auto (photo) mode uses HDR whenever it deems it appropriate - it's those situations where it says "sharpening - hold the device still" (also the same situations where most of the criticisms of excessive sharpening apply).
It's a less elegant implementation of the auto HDR you see in some other phones, and one you can't turn off without switching to pro mode (but then pro mode is very good on the P20 Pro and also allows all its settings to remain on auto, so usually not a big problem making that switch when you need it).
worldsoutro said:
So in a bright sunny day should I always shoot with HDR?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends on what outcome you have in mind the time you take the photo. I like playing with light and although I like wide dynamic range look, I also like to take photos with high contrast, so auto mode gets played some times and I have to lock the exposure the way I want
I am using dslrs for many many years (always travelling with a backpack full of lenses) but I think this phone's camera is really amazing. In really low light situations you can take way sharper photos than what you would with a dslr when handheld, and that's something.
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