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The site is up and running, discussion here!
Frontpage is done, see http://www.htcclassaction.org/. Feel free to comment. None of the other pages on the site are done yet, though.
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
There isn't really a point to the petition, as companies don't really care. There probably isn't a big point with a class action lawsuit either, as it's entirely possible we won't win. It is something that should be investigated, as ultimately, it's just a way of applying pressure, getting publicity and raising awareness.
And nope, I'm not a former employee, but I am disgruntled by the way HTC is treating us.
Looks very good!
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
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What about people who already use their hard earned money and brought the device already?
jackleung said:
What about people who already use their hard earned money and brought the device already?
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The most basic rule when buying a PDA: Only buy what you know youre getting, not what you think youre getting. I learnt that the hard way three years ago,its the same game all over. I think its an annual event.
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
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Maybe you should read the main thread before posting crap like this. There are plenty of people, including myself who think a class action suite would be a good idea. Even if we didn't win or had no real grounds for one, the negative feedback alone could cause HTC to do something about the driver support.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
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As Chainfire mentioned, petitions never work. This is because people eventually "cool off" and stop caring that they've been ripped off.
If I paid a lot less for my Kaiser, I wouldn't care as much that it's being outperformed by the older cheaper HTC models. We paid an arm and leg for these costly phones, we'd expect them to at least give us the basics (drivers).
How would you feel if you bought some fancy & expensive graphics board only to have to use the generic drivers that come with your OS?
Chainfire, great work. Let us know when you've set up the paypal account.
Oh, by the way, wonderful site Chainfire. It has all the info needed in one neatly organized site.
Excellent site Chainfire. If this is indicative of the effort you put into things, my previous (and future) donations have been well spent!! Very clear and to the point.
I posted a link on the "Proper video drivers...." sticky to a Google page tlaking about the bright new future of Android. Just wondered if it is worth highlighting to visitors to the site that HTC is one of the core companies developing this - perhaps if they realise HTC's attitude will affect more than just the current devices. Or maybe they won't care as most casual browsers don't know what Android is? Ah, I don't know.
Hey, if we draw public attention to all this, and then someone manages to address the issue here on XDA-devs, could that cause problems - infringment of copyright etc?
I don't understand the point of this petition, or a law suite for that matter. What do 99% of people do with their Kaisers anyway? There are lots of people around me where I work that use Windows smart phones and they are happy to get their push mail, GPS, bluetooth, whatever. I think they could care less about video drivers.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to have some video acceleration, but most users probably could care less. We are the minority.
I think raising awareness is a great idea. Perhaps listing those manufactures that actually support their WinMo devices with proper drivers is even better, so potential buyers would know to spend their money else wehere.
I got my Kaiser as a Tilt from AT&T. I had 30 days to return it. I was given ample opportunity to play with it, install software, and make my complaint. I kept the device. No one was being forced to buy these things.
If you bought an unlocked Kaiser and spend a large bit of cash, well you take the first movers risk. No reason anyone couldn't wait to see what others though of the device before purchasing it.
You certainly can't will things into existence. Can't buy an HTC phone and wish into existence some drivers that it never had in the first place.
As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some. GPS, pushmail, Pocket IE, it all pretty much works as expected. I understand that the qualcomm chipset may certainly be capable of video acceleration, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific feature that HTC was going after when it made the Kaiser.
I'm not trying to ruin anyones plans or desires to get the most out of their phones, but why not just not buy the phone?
I for one look forward to something like Android, so hobbiests and consumers can put the features they want to exploit in to place on phones like the Kaiser. I hope this drastically changes the market and gives us more choice in our software, and forces manufacturers to do more than the bare minimum with these devices.
-James
jmacdonald801 said:
As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some.
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Well, given older HTC devices never mentioned video acceleration in their specs either and that they're certainly performing better than the Kaiser, I think it's fair to expect performance which at the very least matches that of former models.
I got my Kaiser as a Tilt from AT&T. I had 30 days to return it. I was given ample opportunity to play with it, install software, and make my complaint. I kept the device. No one was being forced to buy these things...
...As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some. GPS, pushmail, Pocket IE, it all pretty much works as expected. I understand that the qualcomm chipset may certainly be capable of video acceleration, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific feature that HTC was going after when it made the Kaiser.
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I hate to say it, but jmac makes very good points. Awareness is fine. Negative publicity might cause some action. but such a lawsuit isn't very winnable here since there were no real explicit promises broken here. Any "promises borken" were more hopes and expectations that were not made by the manufacturer.
But who knows, this being a very HTC centric forum, it could make them take a little notice, but most likely this isn't a winnable case.
jomo25 said:
I hate to say it, but jmac makes very good points. Awareness is fine. Negative publicity might cause some action. but such a lawsuit isn't very winnable here since there were no real explicit promises broken here. Any "promises borken" were more hopes and expectations that were not made by the manufacturer.
But who knows, this being a very HTC centric forum, it could make them take a little notice, but most likely this isn't a winnable case.
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Hehe, as stated elsewhere, it's mostly a pressure and publicity tool. In the end, if we do do the case, it doesn't even really matter if we win it. The publicity and awareness it will generate... There's the headology factor. People are happy using a gadget. People learn the gadget can do a lot more then it does. People are unhappy using the gadget. People complain about the gadget. Creator of gadget fixes gadget
Mark my words, if enough attention is given to this, HTC will do the right thing, if only to save face.
Great site so far Chainfire. I pray that this brings enough attention to move HTC to action. Without those drivers, I can compare this to buying a Corvette only to realize once on the road that the governor is set to 30mph.
Satus update
Status update:
The site is almost finished and uploaded, apart from the "Responses from HTC" section.
- Please read the 'drivers in detail' page and tell me what you think
- Please help me collect 'carrier branded' names of the devices in question
I have also setup a paypal address for donations for the AdWords campaign only, you can find a button on the "What you can do" page. I already put 100 euro's in there myself, and it's been getting extra visitors for almost an hour now.
Before I finish the "Responses from HTC" part, start submitting to slashdot, digg, etc, it's time for dinner
you might want to add the htc vogue/sprint touch to your list on htcclassaction.org, it suffers the same problem and i believe it has a similar chipset with the same 3d hardware.
i think htc will just say,well just because the chipset we use has 3d hardware built in doesn't mean we have to enable or support it because it was never advertised as such.
I'd have to download and extract a ROM to be sure though, I'll do that later.
jmacdonald801 said:
I don't understand the point of this petition, or a law suite for that matter.
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What he said...but I am a little under the influence right now. To be honest, my phone works for GPS, works for email, works for web browsing, sync's via activesync, plays movies just fine (no slider issues when adjusting sound), allows me to read ebooks, works with office mobile (though I would like to be able to save Word documents as .DOC files, not .DOCX). Guess I'm with the 99% because I really don't see any issues with the phone that cause me to get on a soapbox. I really don't care if this makes me unpopular, but I'm so sick of people coming on this forum and moaning about video driver issues. Show me one other device that does all the things that a Kaiser can do? iPhone, no GPS and limited open source unless you want to run the risk of bricking the device, Nokia? Please, I had the 9xxx series of communicators for years. I had the choice between the latest comunicator series or the Kaiser, I went with the Kaiser as Symbian sucked. The N95, QWERTY keyboard???
This phone is not designed as a graphics device, its a business tool. If you want DVD quality movies, buy a portable DVD player, graphic intensive games, get a PSP. I have a Nokia 2110 mobile from 10 years ago that can't handle MID files, a Garmin Sat-Nav the size of a house brick and a digital camera that uses 3.5" floppy discs cause memory cards hadn't been invented when it was launched. HTC have packed an MP3 player, sat-nav, laptop computer, digital camera, mobile phone (...the list goes on) inside a device the size of a packet of cigarettes. Personally I think this is amazing, lets give them a bit of credit for doing this!
[/drunk rant off...]
I have what I think is a great idea for an app but no clue what to do with it. I'm by no means a programmer or even that great with computers. I've done some searching and there doesn't seem to be an app like this. Any help is greatly appreciated. From what someone told me on another forum it could be complicated. If your up for a challenge hit me up and I'll tell you the idea.
programmers don't program for free - so you'll need to offer some $$$ if you want to retain the copyright - in an ideal world. and if it's commercially viable, your idea will be taken and sold. simple as.
If a talented programmer wants to message me, we can talk numebers.
I need a developer to tell me what it would run to build this app.
Depending on what it does I might be able to help. PM me with the details and we can talk from there. The main reason I'm asking you to PM me is because, as I said, I might be able to help, I'm not a super-programmer but I do what I can.
you may want to also give a hint about what type of app it is - messaging, phone, map related etc. that way a programmer with those skills would be able to contact you. though really, most of the good ideas will have been done by now! maybe your idea hasn't for a reason
What platform is this app?
Also, are you sure there's not already an app that does what you're thinking?
Ok so what the hell. Here's the idea.
Everyone dreams of winning the lottery so how about an app where you've won the lottery. However you win doesn't matter because the fun starts after your "numbers" come up. Let's say you win 100 million. Now you get to start spending it. You could also invest. It either grows or dwindles. You could also have all kinds of marketing involved from Ferrari to Neiman Marcus anywhere people spend money. There should be options to buy houses in all kinds of locations. Maybe the background that shows your money status could be animated while the items you shop for are real. Like got to Realtor.com and buy a dream house. You can buy cars or give money to relatives. Anything you might do with your winnings.
I think it'd cool to see what people would do if they won the lottery. Maybe there is an option to take friends on vacation and buy them cars. It'd be interesting to see how fast the money goes. Say you bought a house and cars. Then a certain percentage of the purchase price would determine the upkeep of said houses or cars. So every month a percentage gets deducted from the winnings. Of courses taxes too since we all enjoy that. What do you think?
So there it is. Please don't steal my idea! Honor system people.
Its quite simple to program, really. Like most videogames, content is where it gets complicated. You have absolutely no game yet. You need to really pin down the design, how the game is ACTUALLY going to work; beyond your basic idea there. Then you'll have to design the interface, gather/generate the audiovisual content, adapt it, figure out licensing issues, etc. It goes on and on.
CptAJ said:
Its quite simple to program, really. Like most videogames, content is where it gets complicated. You have absolutely no game yet. You need to really pin down the design, how the game is ACTUALLY going to work; beyond your basic idea there. Then you'll have to design the interface, gather/generate the audiovisual content, adapt it, figure out licensing issues, etc. It goes on and on.
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I'd actually like to learn
You can try freelancing portals like freelancer.com, elance or odesk...
CptAJ said:
Its quite simple to program, really. Like most videogames, content is where it gets complicated. You have absolutely no game yet. You need to really pin down the design, how the game is ACTUALLY going to work; beyond your basic idea there. Then you'll have to design the interface, gather/generate the audiovisual content, adapt it, figure out licensing issues, etc. It goes on and on.
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I tend to agree the idea is only a fraction of the battle... there are numerous ways you could put that idea into practice. Problem with a game is that if you want to mix it with the big boys and make mega bucks it is going to take forever to code and even more money to produce.
If you want to make it simple then you face the problem of people not being interested because of its simplicity. Games generally work best on a PC platform due to the extra screen space / processing power to deliver the graphics and deliver the rich content experience.
If you want to deliver it on a mobile device you will need to scale your expectations accordingly. Can you still get a decent game with limited screen space and HDD space? Hard to say, but it will take a talented programmer...
If you wanted to port a copy of that old classic “Street Rod” across to a mobile device I would be interested in a copy
The tutorial within android sdk page would be a good start point.
I figured it was way beyond my skill level. And you're right, the idea was the simple part it seems.
What can i study in order for me to work as a web designer/ ui designer? keep in mind that i don't wanna study engineering , i dont like all of those math courses, algebra, physics ... do they teach it in universities or do i have to sign up in an institute?
I dont think there's a career such as "ui design" but there must a "web design" right? there must a "branch" in graphic design, i dont think im right for grphic design since im terrible at drawing what do you guys think ?
It would be IT where I'm going to college. That would include html, mySQL, php, and some other happy fun stuff Possibly Javascript.
-How cruel is the golden rule, when the lives we live are all golden plated-
UI design is generally an overlap of developers and graphic designers. A graphic designer is needed to make it look good, but a developer is needed to make it practical. Between them both, you get a good UI. Well, that's the theory anyway.
If you want to do UI design then you need to decide whether you want to do it from the design point of view, or the development point of view. If you want to actually build websites, then go the development route. If you don't, graphic design is probably the best bet.
There's also games development and design, which does have a particular branch that involves GUI design, but that's usually part of a quite heavy games programming course.
I've personally never heard of a UI design course. I'm not saying that there isn't one, but after 15 years in the industry I've never heard of anyone doing it as a job, either, other than in games development.
johncmolyneux said:
UI design is generally an overlap of developers and graphic designers. A graphic designer is needed to make it look good, but a developer is needed to make it practical. Between them both, you get a good UI. Well, that's the theory anyway.
If you want to do UI design then you need to decide whether you want to do it from the design point of view, or the development point of view. If you want to actually build websites, then go the development route. If you don't, graphic design is probably the best bet.
There's also games development and design, which does have a particular branch that involves GUI design, but that's usually part of a quite heavy games programming course.
I've personally never heard of a UI design course. I'm not saying that there isn't one, but after 15 years in the industry I've never heard of anyone doing it as a job, either, other than in games development.
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Thank you, your reply was really helpful , i want to do it from the design point of view, something i've learned here in xda is that a programmer does not make a good designer and viceversa, sometimes people make great programs but they're hideous, with lack of good taste and too many things/colors going on for example
What about " web design" is there a actually a course for that?
Yup, i studied that. Okay, not web design, but that was included. I studied multimedia design. That included web design, 3D, photography, and film.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using xda premium
Chad_Petree said:
Thank you, your reply was really helpful , i want to do it from the design point of view, something i've learned here in xda is that a programmer does not make a good designer and viceversa, sometimes people make great programs but they're hideous, with lack of good taste and too many things/colors going on for example
What about " web design" is there a actually a course for that?
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I attended a graphic design program (contuing education) at a college nearby. If you're looking to learn the basics (illustrator, PS, InDesign.. etc.) Then I was would start there. But if you're already familiar with image editing and want to learn how to apply it to mobile UI design you can start by looking here - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=916814. But like John mentioned, there are two types of designing regarding UI.. basic modifying of images in the system is quit simple and only requires image editing software and 7zip (might want to learn how to edit mode.9/9patch and m10 images correctly as well). But if you're looking to do some of the more advanced designing you will need to do a bit of reading/searching. Thankfully, you can find all the info here at XDA.
Sent from my HTC Flyer.
BazookaAce said:
Yup, i studied that. Okay, not web design, but that was included. I studied multimedia design. That included web design, 3D, photography, and film.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using xda premium
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multimedia design ? sounds nice, for how long? 4 years?
I only studied for 1 year, but i did plan on 4 years with 3 of those in Australia, but i got bored and stopped after one. And it was pricey. 20K per year.
Scabes24 said:
I attended a graphic design program (contuing education) at a college nearby. If you're looking to learn the basics (illustrator, PS, InDesign.. etc.) Then I was would start there. But if you're already familiar with image editing and want to learn how to apply it to mobile UI design you can start by looking here - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=916814. But like John mentioned, there are two types of designing regarding UI.. basic modifying of images in the system is quit simple and only requires image editing software and 7zip (might want to learn how to edit mode.9/9patch and m10 images correctly as well). But if you're looking to do some of the more advanced designing you will need to do a bit of reading/searching. Thankfully, you can find all the info here at XDA.
Sent from my HTC Flyer.
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Did you have a degree before studing graphic design? I need to know basics , since i know nothing, i just have my highschool degree, i want to do this as my career, not just a hobby
I know you're not asking me, but i did not have a degree in "graphics" before i started. It was a private school, so if you show them some "dineros", you're in. But hey, you have to learn it from some place ney? It doesn't hurt knowing some basic stuff in PS or Illustrator though.
In fairness, there's a LOT of online tutorials for learning techniques in all the popular design/illustration apps. It certainly wouldn't do any harm to get a head start.
johncmolyneux said:
In fairness, there's a LOT of online tutorials for learning techniques in all the popular design/illustration apps. It certainly wouldn't do any harm to get a head start.
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Of course that's what i plan on doing , study by my own till i start the program
You do not need to excel at drawing to study graphic art. You just need an eye for design and color; the rest can be learned at school. Having said that, talent is extremely important to find success as a graphic artist/designer.
Web design courses are usually included in graphic arts program, but you may also find exclusive web design programs. There’s one web design and development program at California College San Diego that trains graduates in both front-end design and back-end development of websites. Find more details on the link below:
cc-sd.edu/graphic-arts/bachelors/web-design-and-development
ralphak said:
You do not need to excel at drawing to study graphic art. You just need an eye for design and color; the rest can be learned at school. Having said that, talent is extremely important to find success as a graphic artist/designer.
Web design courses are usually included in graphic arts program, but you may also find exclusive web design programs. There’s one web design and development program at California College San Diego that trains graduates in both front-end design and back-end development of websites. Find more details on the link below:
cc-sd.edu/graphic-arts/bachelors/web-design-and-development
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good one
Now THIS is the example of not trying to pass the 10 post limit by spamming... Get that Noobs?
Hi Folks,
Going through a time in my life when I want to change directions. With all the brilliant folks on XDA who are honest and experienced and most importantly not going to get kickbacks from doling out good advice, I wanted to ask what you think is the best way to begin an IT career.
Some background about me: I am, for worse or better, in my late 30s which is well older than the average for this kind of thing I'm sure.
My jobs background is mostly in office admin but the emphasis has shifted more and more to the technological. That is I have found myself in the e-business world over the past decade almost exclusively, so I have been in the middle of working with other types of IT employee who are more like I want to become: the architects of apps and systems.
I'm very intelligent, a quick and open-minded learner. The strange thing is when I was young I programmed BASIC with great ability on Apple IIe's and Atari PCs, but "grew away" from that and now of course want it back.
I find myself with definite ideas of apps I want to develop and knowledge I want to absorb but need the know-how and a chance to prove myself. Particular strengths I think I have that others don't is a strong sense of design, better "people skills" than the average geek and maturity (a nice way of saying "I'm freaking old, dude," heheh).
Anyway, narrowing it down the career paths that sound good to me they include Computer Applications Software Engineering and/or Computer Systems Analyst. At least for now.
What I'm trying to avoid is the often scummy education industry from soaking up thousands or tens of thousands of dollars from me to learn what's mostly unnecessary. I've been through that once. While some certifications, degrees etc. are good and necessary I know I also know that nothing beats real-world experience.
So please, any ideas from the people who have lived it and been "in the trenches" about how to begin the path would be much appreciated. Maybe this thread could even be helpful for others who are going through the same process.
DroidApprentice said:
Hi Folks,
Going through a time in my life when I want to change directions. With all the brilliant folks on XDA who are honest and experienced and most importantly not going to get kickbacks from doling out good advice, I wanted to ask what you think is the best way to begin an IT career.
Some background about me: I am, for worse or better, in my late 30s which is well older than the average for this kind of thing I'm sure.
My jobs background is mostly in office admin but the emphasis has shifted more and more to the technological. That is I have found myself in the e-business world over the past decade almost exclusively, so I have been in the middle of working with other types of IT employee who are more like I want to become: the architects of apps and systems.
I'm very intelligent, a quick and open-minded learner. The strange thing is when I was young I programmed BASIC with great ability on Apple IIe's and Atari PCs, but "grew away" from that and now of course want it back.
I find myself with definite ideas of apps I want to develop and knowledge I want to absorb but need the know-how and a chance to prove myself. Particular strengths I think I have that others don't is a strong sense of design, better "people skills" than the average geek and maturity (a nice way of saying "I'm freaking old, dude," heheh).
Anyway, narrowing it down the career paths that sound good to me they include Computer Applications Software Engineering and/or Computer Systems Analyst. At least for now.
What I'm trying to avoid is the often scummy education industry from soaking up thousands or tens of thousands of dollars from me to learn what's mostly unnecessary. I've been through that once. While some certifications, degrees etc. are good and necessary I know I also know that nothing beats real-world experience.
So please, any ideas from the people who have lived it and been "in the trenches" about how to begin the path would be much appreciated. Maybe this thread could even be helpful for others who are going through the same process.
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The way I see it, you have 2 major options.
1. Get a degree and learn to code
2. Learn to code on your own, and screw the degree
If you're more interested in the 2nd option. Check out this link. The prof is great, it's basically a Java class for beginners. But at AcademicEarth, you'll also find other more advanced courses. It really is a terrific resource.
http://www.academicearth.org/courses/programming-methodology
Best of luck!
Thanks! I know many people are self-taught and some of the best may even come from that background. I'll check out that resource and try to absorb as much as I can. It might help me clarify for myself what help I need.
Don't forget good old fashioned Mathematics.
If you think you left all that behind in High School, think again, and brushing some of the rust off it will never go amiss. In fact, stuffing as much of it into your brain as it will stand, is not such a bad thing.
Sometimes it lets you see a much better/faster way of doing something.
Books out of the library, or even articles on Wikipedia are a start, and gratis, and you can go at your own pace until it sinks in.
Good Luck!
stephj said:
Don't forget good old fashioned Maths.
If you think you left all that behind in High School, think again, and brushing some of the rust off it will never go amiss. Stuffing as much of it into your brain as it will stand, is not such a bad thing.
Sometimes it lets you see a much better/faster way of doing something.
Books out of the library, or even wikipedia are a start, and gratis, and you can go at your own pace until it sinks in.
Good Luck!
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Click to collapse
Excellent point! Binary/Octal number systems. Matrix math. Boolean logic and decision trees...all built on basic concepts that too many have long forgotten.
I think of myself as a predominantly "right brained" person (and am a southpaw to boot) but math and me get along OK and in some ways better than we used to. Higher math is actually in some ways better than lower since I can tend to the abstract. Thanks again.
To the people who have been here all along:
I grew up in the 80s immersed in technology; having intrinsic skill with computers (from building PCs to application and web development), I naturally had a successful career in IT. (My passion has always been live, data-driven apps, and I have broad experience with SQL in the back and ASP.NET/JS/etc. in the front.) Unfortunately, I was unwell, self-destructed (got caught up in what amounted to an elaborate theft scheme), and went to prison.
Now that I'm releasing, I'm trying to find educational resources that will catch me up to speed in the industry so that I can restart a career in development for mobile devices. But web searches return what appears to me mostly junk. I believe that you folks will be able to point me in the right direction.
As a lifelong coder, I don't need a basic introductory class; that being said, my familiarity with specific environments only goes so far. Which programming languages do I need to learn, and can anyone refer me to particular resources that would best take advantage of my pre-existing abilities so that I can develop apps for Android, iOS, and alternatives?
Perhaps more importantly, I obviously need a leg up in AI and metaverse technologies. Especially because these are evolving fields, I'm not sure whether I need instruction in a particular application so much as a general tour -- but looking for something like that runs the risk of returning terrible wastes of time for someone in my position. I'm thinking I need a little of both, but choosing the platforms in which to invest my attention is going to require more than a web search.
Ideally, in addition to public-domain type materials, I'd like to gather a short list of remote-learning programs, possibly instructor-led and therefore having a structured schedule, but whatever works. I care less about obtaining a valued certificate than I do about getting the right kind of training for me so that I can actually pick up the knowledge necessary to inform my next steps.
Any pointers would be immeasurably appreciated! Thank you for reading.
You will need Java - Kotlin for Android , Objective C for iOS. And good understanding of how modern IDEs and software work.
https://www.freecodecamp.org/ is the best resource you can have for understanding current software scenarios.
AI is old. We always had AI
Metaverse is old. We always had Metaverse.
Modern tech companies are also the world's biggest marketing companies. Both fields are hyped by these companies.
They are just fancy names for Maths and Forum Avatars.