Well, i was here from the beginning. I didn't start the petition, but i posted it and asked for a sticky. I was one of the first few that posted about the lack of 3D. I'm very angry about my slow crappy Kaiser. But...
A BIG BUT:
- The "drivers" would NOT solve the slow video we see in TCPMP, since TCPMP decompresses in software. And any release of CorePlayer has the same performance. Maybe one released after the "drivers" are installed would be better.
- The "drivers" would NOT score higher in SPB benchmark.
We don't actually need "drivers". We need a build of WM6 (WM6.1) which is using a better SDK (libraries) from Qualcomm.
This is what i think needs fixing:
- Accurate VSync - so we don't get tearing anymore - this may also solve some slow programs.
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
BTW: the 4.3k score on graphics that the Kaiser got, and any other graphic benchmark is VERY VERY FAKE - they say 40+ FPS in some test, but i see 5 FPS on my screen (trust me, i know, i'm a render programmer in the game industry, i have an eye for these). What is actually happening is that the program says: draw this on the screen, and the hardware says "done" about 400 times a second, and it actually didn't render anything - this is what i mean by a good VSync.
I say this again - if we had 100% working drivers on our Kaiser right now, and you try them with TCPMP -> no difference, trust me. If you run Quake for PPC -> no difference, again. You would probably never know you had HW acceleration. The 2D HW part would be noticed in the Windows GUI (maybe) and in some programs (very few - those that use DirectDraw, and use it correctly)
Maybe we should try asking for what i said - no tearing, better sound, and maybe we'd get it.
Please, please don't post if you don't understand what i'm saying. This is for the big boys
agreed many of the ports of old 3d games like duke3d, doom1-2 quake1-3 .....
would most likely never benefit from a real driver as they are old games which
dident even benefit from 3d cards in pcs
so thinking that a driver will make anything faster is likely to cause tears
plus the ati powers of the kaiser and others is really not much of a 3d powerhouse like the geforce counterpart it does add some 2d speed up but thats about it
which is prob why a money aware company like qualcomm would bother to pay ati
the pretty small fee for their license
but at the end of the day htc are cheapskates
I understand your points and believe that everything you said is true. (Specially about the video drivers not solving the slow video problem).
However I don't see any problems with the audio on the Kaiser (at least on mine).
But yes, I also say that we need a better OS implementation for the Qualcomm chip.
Should we start a new (and proven ineffective) petition to HTC?
Cheers!
RayanMX
what borthers me is that htc seem to be happy enough to be the biggest wm device maker rather then really making an efford to compeat with iphone they seem to sleep on the bed of roses that iphone not being that available outside of us and not being 3g or having sd interface
kinda sad imho :S
Oh, and the funny part is that if they would have fixed the tearing and the DirectDraw bug before releasing it, nobody would have cared about the 3D HW not being used. Well, maybe me, omikr0n, and ten other guys would have cared, but it would have been forgotten in a few weeks.
The 2D DirectDraw was noticed only because TCPMP and CorePlayer have the option to use DDraw. And it could have been fixed - CorePlayer devs found a way around it.
In the end this is just a rushed device, using a cheap (and slow) platform - 400Mhz means nothing, it behaves like a 300Mhz Intel or 240Mhz TI OMAP - not a fact, just an analogy.
Just have one comment about the sound...
did you try the sound using any stereo speakers other than the mono speaker on the device itself? it is actually one of the finest and cleanest audio output i've heard for a while, i compared to ipod and tilt's sound was MUCH better
RPG0 said:
This is what i think needs fixing:
- Accurate VSync - so we don't get tearing anymore - this may also solve some slow programs.
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
BTW: the 4.3k score on graphics that the Kaiser got, and any other graphic benchmark is VERY VERY FAKE - they say 40+ FPS in some test, but i see 5 FPS on my screen (trust me, i know, i'm a render programmer in the game industry, i have an eye for these). What is actually happening is that the program says: draw this on the screen, and the hardware says "done" about 400 times a second, and it actually didn't render anything - this is what i mean by a good VSync.
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Click to collapse
Being a developer for such a long time, I feel you.
We should release our own benchmark program that we know won't get nop'ed out by some other timing code if we can't get to the vsync register.
The WM default midi soundbank is still crap as well as playback. My SE T610, and all my Palm Pilots playback midi with much more clarity. I know it's not the hardware because the alternative GSPlayer+ MIDI player plays the same samples just fine.
What can be learnt from the Apple II days is to just vote with the wallet. Fighting the hardware maker is wasted time and effort. Only complaint that gets their attention is a walking wallet.
edit: you know, we used to rawbuffer most of our graphics on the same resolution screen (320x240) on a vastly inferior CPU. No reason we can't try to do the same on the Kaiser with a super ARMv6 asm optimized library. We just need to shut up the OS from stealing so many cycles.
Of course I'm only thinking of 2D gaming without video decoding, and only MIDI music since those are the least CPU intensive.
ahussam said:
Just have one comment about the sound...
did you try the sound using any stereo speakers other than the mono speaker on the device itself? it is actually one of the finest and cleanest audio output i've heard for a while, i compared to ipod and tilt's sound was MUCH better
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Click to collapse
+1
I forgot I had an iPod since I got my Tilt. With an 8gb SD who needs one?
How do you come to the conclusion that drivers wouldn't help DDraw applications like CorePlayer and such?
Devices with proper drivers seem to work just fine with DirectDraw and they are able to create a proper HW overlay etc.
Granted it would not solve decoding of video, that's given. But it could/would/should surely speed up the actual rendering.
Writing to the dedicated video RAM instead of creating a framebuffer in normal system RAM should be faster. Hardware overlay should be faster than just using the standard rendering paths etc.
As for games: of course they won't be sped up unless the actual game supports D3D or OGL. Most games don't (even "fancy" 3d ones) but some do, such as COD.
Also, a proper DDI driver can and will speed up 2D rendering in general. Doing simple stuff like rendering just a menu is WAY too slow right now and that's unrelated to vsync. (There's certainly a world of difference between lacking the smootheness and tearing "freeness" of proper vsync and just performance in general, it shouldn't take a full second to draw a simple screen in WM if no other operations are active.)
As for sound I did have those problems but as of the latest 1.65.14.06 radio my audio is pretty much top notch. Sounds just as good as my ipod or my creative zen players and a whole lot better than the integrated soundcard of my laptop (realtek hd audio).
That's both during calls but especially when listening to music.
Of course with the bundled headphones or even with HTCs "high end" headphones it all sounds like crap. With a proper set of of in ear plugs (I've a "cheap" Shure set and a more expensive Sony one and they both sound simply awesome.)
Actually I really like using it as an audio player as it supports WMA Lossless (undocumented feature of Windows Mobile 6), few devices.
For whatever reason though poorly compressed songs sound much worse on this device compared to MP3-players in general.
If it's because the codec is poor or if it's so great that it makes smaller variances noticable is hard to say (I'd go for poor codec) but it's certainly not due to "poor sound".
Thats my $0.2
RPG0 said:
- The "drivers" would NOT solve the slow video we see in TCPMP, since TCPMP decompresses in software. And any release of CorePlayer has the same performance. Maybe one released after the "drivers" are installed would be better.
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I have to disagree here...
The current routines being used for DirectDraw are slow and inefficient. Probably using very slow CPU calls. It's for sure a software CPU routine drawing the pixels.
Anyone who has done raw hardware video programming can attest if you popped an interrupt to draw one pixel on the screen vs using DMA access the difference is night and day. The interrupt method chews up CPU cycles drawing the pixels ont he screen vs the DMA method which doesn't waste CPU cycles and is far more efficient.
Pointing directdraw to use hooks into the GPU and or DMA access to a hardware frame buffer would improve things significantly (night and day). You can easily see this by playing a video on an old PPC6700 which has proper direct draw routine implemented. The difference is HUGE factor of 10 I'd say.
The slow video rendering has nothing to do with the CPU doing the video decompression. It has to do with the directdraw routines not being implemented efficiently and the CPU wasting it's cycles drawing pixels on the screen. You can see "tearing" because you can SEE the video refreshing the screen out of the vsync due to the slow directdraw routines that exist. The the CPU should be concentrating on decoding video not wasting cycles drawing the video. The directdraw routine should be writing to a framebuffer using DMA or some similar method.
This is what's going on (high level lame explantion). Pretend the below are mappings.
Method #1
DirectDraw -> IntXX (video interrupt)
or
Method #2
DirectDraw -> DMA (direct memory to the video card)
Using method #1 it will cost you CPU cycles just to draw the pixels. So not only does your device need to concentrate on decoding the video it also needs to waste CPU cycles drawing pixels on the screen one by one. And the larger the screen area your painting, the more CPU it costs you. You can even experience this on a device like the Mogul (6800); you can get faster frame rates when you draw less pixels.
Using method #2 drawing video costs your CPU basically no overhead and it can spend it cycles decoding the video. It will use DMA to write to a video frame buffer instead of making CPU calls to do it.
These are just examples, but this how it's broken from my hardware programming experience.
The post above mine is also a good reference.
I stand by my statement, that having a good DDraw implementation will not help. In theory, you're right, but on other devices (Htc Prophet aka Qtek S200 and HTC Touch) there was no difference between Raw framebuffer or GDI and DDraw. So real-life scenarios tend to prove me right.
The only reason things could speed up is the hardware conversion between YUV and RGB, but for a 320x240 frame, that takes very little time to do in software, and for some codecs, the conversion is not necessary. I can explain what YUV means, and why it's used in video/image compression if anyone is interested, but you can google youself.
About the sound part, maybe i have an old radio ROM, maybe i have a defective device or maybe it's just my configuration.
EDIT: Don't forget that even when using HW overlay, you STILL have to fill the surface with pixels (the pixels you just decoded), so you have to write 320x240 somewhere (with DDraw you write in the memory area you get with Lock(), in Raw framebuffer you write directly in an area that is drawn afterwards). If you ignore the YUV->RGB conversion, you gain NOTHING with DDraw.
As i said, i'm a game render programmer, and i did some image/video compression/decompression in my time, so you can get technical, I'll understand.
so !!
hi fpgo,so how are sony/ericsson getting round video prob on X1 xperia ? I guess their not going to market with a half crippled device, unlike htc,from what I can make out x1 is only a tweaked kaiser,so could we not just back engineer their solution ?
greatly disapointed with kaiser all round.if id known se version was due,id have waited to upgrade,still prefer my p910i,just no 3g.
tleaf100 said:
hi fpgo,so how are sony/ericsson getting round video prob on X1 xperia ? I guess their not going to market with a half crippled device, unlike htc,from what I can make out x1 is only a tweaked kaiser,so could we not just back engineer their solution ?
greatly disapointed with kaiser all round.if id known se version was due,id have waited to upgrade,still prefer my p910i,just no 3g.
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If you watch the CNET video from Bonnie Cha on the X1, you'll see it's actually pretty slow in the rendering as well, so forget that.
Now back to the experts.
X1
sorry,not seen video,will go and have a look.
was only an idea...
will leave to you "experts" ....
RPG0 said:
I stand by my statement, that having a good DDraw implementation will not help. In theory, you're right, but on other devices (Htc Prophet aka Qtek S200 and HTC Touch) there was no difference between Raw framebuffer or GDI and DDraw. So real-life scenarios tend to prove me right.
The only reason things could speed up is the hardware conversion between YUV and RGB, but for a 320x240 frame, that takes very little time to do in software, and for some codecs, the conversion is not necessary. I can explain what YUV means, and why it's used in video/image compression if anyone is interested, but you can google youself.
About the sound part, maybe i have an old radio ROM, maybe i have a defective device or maybe it's just my configuration.
EDIT: Don't forget that even when using HW overlay, you STILL have to fill the surface with pixels (the pixels you just decoded), so you have to write 320x240 somewhere (with DDraw you write in the memory area you get with Lock(), in Raw framebuffer you write directly in an area that is drawn afterwards). If you ignore the YUV->RGB conversion, you gain NOTHING with DDraw.
As i said, i'm a game render programmer, and i did some image/video compression/decompression in my time, so you can get technical, I'll understand.
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Click to collapse
Well, YUV overlay support would be very nice, but I doubt we will see it working on kaiser (does Imageon even supports it?). But.. Working DDraw accel. would still help - for example when doing soft yuv->rgb conversion and double buffering result - you would definitively get better results if Kaiser have had hw accelerated bitblt (or at least less tearing).
*** Massive Brain Overload*** "Apparently these people are speaking a strange dialect I've never heard before" -Harold & Kumar Escape from Montanamo Bay
RPG0 said:
...
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
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Click to collapse
LOL! And that will be the funniest thing I hear all day. And I just woke up.
Oh, and since HTC said they are releasing a new ROM which fixes the speed of the device, but does not bring HW accel (drivers), i think my problems will be over.
new rom
ahh,and when is this magical fix for kaiser meant to be released to public ?
my kaiser has become 3g /hsdpa usb modem,and gone back to p910i for everyday use,kaiser too fussy/slow/clunky for busy gardener,keeping fingers crossed about s/e "paris".
Just a shameless bump
Related
Hello there!
I want to ask all of you Kaiser owners for your experiences with the emulator FPSEce on this device. (I did use the search but couldn't find anything helpful)
The reason is that I am planning on buying a HTC Phone with the latest 400 Mhz Qualcomm CPU.
Especially the speed of Final Fantasy 7 would be interessting for me, because I own this game.
On my recent PDA with 624 Mhz and under WM 2003SE FF7 is running perfectly, so I would be really thankful if you could tell me about the speed of PS1-games on the kaiser. (maybe it is possible in the near future to overclock the CPU to about 500 Mhz for more power with FPSEce)
Best regards,
DL
I don't think we'll be running any ps games on our kaisers until HTC releases those drivers to fully support 3d acceleration. Heck, we can barely play snes games..
I was unable to get any games working with this emulator. It may have been user-error, but I gave up. So im not sure how the performance would be if it works.
o yea this was the first thing i launched on my kaiser when i got it back in october. the framerate was poor, only about 19-22+ fps. i mean yea it ran, but we would need some 3d acceleration, but im not sure if thatl even be at an acceptable speed.
that was in a game i played, when i was in the bios (the playstation menu) i got like 45-55fps.
I also used FPSEce on a 625Mhz device (Axim X50v) and it was running close to the original speed. But I was disapointed to see that FPSEce runs well on Kaiser but too slooooooow. I Tried Gran Turismo, again it worked fine, but was pretty unusable because of the low speed. I tried many tweaks on FPSEce (I also tweaked my device as much as I can), but still too slow.
I am not confident in the fact that one day we'll have the onboard 3D accelerator working , but I think we may have chance one day to get an overclock utility for the Qualcomm processor. Then, if we can overclock the processor upto 500 Mhz, I guess FPSEce would be usable ...
The other thing is that the more I play with my Kaiser, the more I can see that the buttons are not well made for that. Around the D-Pad, the buttons are too small and most of the time I press multiple buttons at the same time (and I have small fingers !). Also the shape of the D-Pad is not very good from my point of view : the horizontal size of it too big compared the vertical size. So when you play fast action games, you need to move your finger from one side of the D-pad to the other side (on the horizontal side), you can't keep you'r finger on the D-pad. So you loose time when using the D-pad, I don't know if what I say is clear enough ...
But this time, that is maybe because my fingers are too small ! Maybe I am the only one to have this problem !
The D-pad of my HTC prophet is a lot better for gaming.
When I bought my Kaiser, I thought I could then sell my GameBoy Advanced, but now I know I will still have to keep it !
Thanks for your replies.
So you can say that it's no fun to play with 400 Mhz because it's too slow to play? Let's hope a programm for overclocking will be released soon.
The missing 3D drivers are not too crucial. CPU is the most important part for any emulation.
Again, be also carefull about the fact that the D-pad is not good for gaming ... I tried again tonight many emulators (Commodore 64, MorphGear and others ) and I could find some more problems with it :
I don't know why but I've find a little lag when pressing the pad. This is very annoying when playing fast action games. This lag only appears with some emulators (Commodore 64, Morphgear, Pocket Caprice) wich are unfortunatly my favorite ones ... For exemple, I didn't find any lag playing with the Spectrum emulator (Pocket Clive).
I also met another problem : in fast action games, when pressing the left side of the D-pad, if I press it too firmly, I can feel the screen moving a little bit, just like if I wanted to open the hardware keyboard. It's also very annoying.
Definitly, this device is certainly a good device for internet/phone/business using. But it is very far to be the best one for gaming. If you know you will be playing with the Kaiser, you have to know it is not made for that, and from my point of view, it is the worst Pocket PC I had to play games (I had a Casio EM505, Ipaq 1930, Dell Axim X50v, HTC Prophet ...).
What ever happen in the future, even if we can overclock the device, there will be no way to replace the existing D-pad and its (too small) buttons.
I just thought the D-pad needed some gettin used to, then it seemed fine to me. i experianced no problems with the screen moving or a lag. it really didnt seem that bad to me. im using the AT&T branded phone (with the htc rom of corse).
and yes, lest hope an overclocking utility will be released soon
Ok, so it is playable but not perfect. Thank you.
Regarding the button problem. If the hardware buttons are too close to the d-pad try using some onscreen buttons (you can customize them for each game). It's a really great feature.
DaveLeh said:
Ok, so it is playable but not perfect. Thank you.
Regarding the button problem. If the hardware buttons are too close to the d-pad try using some onscreen buttons (you can customize them for each game). It's a really great feature.
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Click to collapse
I don't think using virtual buttons on the screen is a solution : you will have to take your kaiser on one hand, to use the d-pad with the same hand (wich may be a problem because the d-pad is too large) and use the stylus with the other hand. Absolutly not comfortable, and dangerous for the screen if in the action of the game you're going fast and press the screen too firmly.
Also, one other problem reported with this wonderfull Kaiser : many users reported that the Kaiser speed slows down when you press the screen. I can't confirm that because I never play with the screen, but you have to know this other issue.
When you say "playable but not perfect", I can feel you decided to buy it. Really, if you want to play with it, you have to know that it's "sometimes playable, but in a bad way".
Why sometimes ? Because 3D games like Call Of Duty 2 are too slow to be playable, some other applications are not playable (FPSEce for exemple, the Playstation emulator).
And when the speed is good enough to play, then the pad/buttons problems show up.
Again, in you position, I just would not buy it ! In my case, if I could go back in time, I would not make this mistake twice.
mikeeey said:
o yea this was the first thing i launched on my kaiser when i got it back in october. the framerate was poor, only about 19-22+ fps. i mean yea it ran, but we would need some 3d acceleration, but im not sure if thatl even be at an acceptable speed.
that was in a game i played, when i was in the bios (the playstation menu) i got like 45-55fps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive had the same results and is why im pushing for the petition has anyone had games that play at near full speed. on ff 7 some scenes were good and some were just painfully slow
jaygriggs said:
Ive had the same results and is why im pushing for the petition has anyone had games that play at near full speed. on ff 7 some scenes were good and some were just painfully slow
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Click to collapse
hey btw how big is the ff7 rom? just seeing if i should go look for it or if i wouldnt even be able to put it on my kaiser anyway.
dizzy33 said:
When you say "playable but not perfect", I can feel you decided to buy it. Really, if you want to play with it, you have to know that it's "sometimes playable, but in a bad way".
Why sometimes ? Because 3D games like Call Of Duty 2 are too slow to be playable, some other applications are not playable (FPSEce for exemple, the Playstation emulator).
And when the speed is good enough to play, then the pad/buttons problems show up.
Again, in you position, I just would not buy it ! In my case, if I could go back in time, I would not make this mistake twice.
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Click to collapse
Well, I was actually aiming for the upcoming Polaris, which is Kaiser without Keyboard. Maybe the lack of many hardwarebuttons and the reportet bug with screen-pressing would be much worse there. But I can't find another PDA-Phone which looks so "complete" in its features and size. Anyway the only game I own is FF7, so other games don't really matter much to me. And it's no game where you have to press buttons fast. Moreover we can hope for an overclocking tool. More important for me would be GBA emulation, but I would asume 400 Mhz are more than enough to emulate GBA.
What phone would you get if you could go back? Wait for future models from HTC with CGA and more CPU?
@jaygriggs: Thanks for the infos on FF7
@mikeeey: Well there are 3 CDs but you don't have to always store all three on the card at the same time. Every CD is about 700 MB, but when you cut out the movies you get around 300 MB.
DaveLeh said:
Well, I was actually aiming for the upcoming Polaris, which is Kaiser without Keyboard. Maybe the lack of many hardwarebuttons and the reportet bug with screen-pressing would be much worse there. But I can't find another PDA-Phone which looks so "complete" in its features and size. Anyway the only game I own is FF7, so other games don't really matter much to me. And it's no game where you have to press buttons fast. Moreover we can hope for an overclocking tool. More important for me would be GBA emulation, but I would asume 400 Mhz are more than enough to emulate GBA.
What phone would you get if you could go back? Wait for future models from HTC with CGA and more CPU?
@jaygriggs: Thanks for the infos on FF7
@mikeeey: Well there are 3 CDs but you don't have to always store all three on the card at the same time. Every CD is about 700 MB, but when you cut out the movies you get around 300 MB.
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Click to collapse
BTW, why don't you go for a cheapo Dell Axim x51v? It's the best machine for emulation because of the supported(!!!!!!) 2700G. See http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=347096
Menneisyys said:
BTW, why don't you go for a cheapo Dell Axim x51v? It's the best machine for emulation because of the supported(!!!!!!) 2700G. See http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=347096
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Well the most important thing for me is to have MP3/PocketPC/gaming device/phone in one device.
In the past I had an mp3 player and a mobile phone, then i bought one phone which could play mp3 in stereo, too (the siemens sx1). This device had a symbian (s60) OS, so it was kind of a smartphone. But because of that I got really interested in PPCs and Windows Mobile. So I bought a cheap x30 @ ebay. But again, it's just too uncomfortable to have two devices, so it has to be a pda-phone and those new HTC phones have a small size and most must-have features (like GPS, WiFi, etc.). So I think I could live without 3d hardware, even if that would mean bad PS1 emulation.
BTW: I really like your blog. Great work and always interesting. It really must take much time to write all that. My praises.
DaveLeh said:
Well the most important thing for me is to have MP3/PocketPC/gaming device/phone in one device.
In the past I had an mp3 player and a mobile phone, then i bought one phone which could play mp3 in stereo, too (the siemens sx1). This device had a symbian (s60) OS, so it was kind of a smartphone. But because of that I got really interested in PPCs and Windows Mobile. So I bought a cheap x30 @ ebay. But again, it's just too uncomfortable to have two devices, so it has to be a pda-phone and those new HTC phones have a small size and most must-have features (like GPS, WiFi, etc.). So I think I could live without 3d hardware, even if that would mean bad PS1 emulation.
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Click to collapse
It's not just 3D hardware support and not only PS1 emulation:
1. the 2700g is explicitly used in several other emus (SNES, GBA, FireBurn - to mention the three most important)
2. the x51v doesn't have any touchscreen CPU usage bug - this is a godsend with emulators with on-screen tap areas (on the long run, it's much more conventient than a hard-to-press button)
BTW: I really like your blog. Great work and always interesting. It really must take much time to write all that. My praises.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks
Menneisyys said:
It's not just 3D hardware support and not only PS1 emulation:
1. the 2700g is explicitly used in several other emus (SNES, GBA, FireBurn - to mention the three most important)
2. the x51v doesn't have any touchscreen CPU usage bug - this is a godsend with emulators with on-screen tap areas (on the long run, it's much more conventient than a hard-to-press button)
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as i was sayign with trying to find the touchscreen driver from teh 6700, could this also be possible to find in the X51v?
does anyone know how to manually adjust frame skip? on the website it says there are many different levels but i cant figure out how to do it
Hallo,
I'm new to PPC and realised the scrolling and viewing of sms & mms is very slow. . Initially I thought it was normal for PPC, but my friend told me is abnormal after he view it.
Any advise please.
Good day
Most likely related to the lack of drivers for the Kaiser.... but I'm sure someboday else can confirm.
Audio said:
Most likely related to the lack of drivers for the Kaiser.... but I'm sure someboday else can confirm.
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Mmm. And that's based on what precisely? Actually it's probably unlikely to be due to the drivers. ********* Edited for pettiness.
Some people are tending to attribute problems to video drivers and little help or thought is being put into what the real cause of problems may be.
This is the same kind of mis-information as when folk were saying the PIE scrolling was down to the drivers (and again it was unrelated to them) OR again when the speed of the camera was put down to the drivers (and again newer software shows this was not the case).
In reply to the OP. Please give us some more detail, circumstances when it happens, how slow is it, are you running any other programs concurrently etc.
Mike
ive noticed that after about 2 hours on my phone (with under 45% memory usage) my txt messages also lag. i write the entire message and it takes like 30 secounds for the message to show up for me to be able to send it. its really annoying
Obviously I'm no Kaiser Wizz, which is why I didn't say "Your problem is because of lack of drivers" (I also missed the sms bit, and thought the issue was only related to MMS, which reading again makes my first post sound insane), but thanks for being patronising in your correcting me and thanks for the mindless sheep insult (which although isn't directly poitned at me, clearly shows I'm the intended recipient).
OR again when the speed of the camera was put down to the drivers (and again newer software shows this was not the case).
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From what I've seen this has not actually been proven yet, a few HTC Camera Cab's have been released which increase FPS a miniscule amount, but hardly a fix, and not really enough to say that poor Camera speeds are not because of lack of drivers. I'm not saying they definately are, but from your statement you seem to have completey dis-regarded drivers from the issue.
try messing around with the cache tweaks, or flash a new rom
should i increase or decrease the cache in this situation?
Audio said:
Obviously I'm no Kaiser Wizz, which is why I didn't say "Your problem is because of lack of drivers" (I also missed the sms bit, and thought the issue was only related to MMS, which reading again makes my first post sound insane), but thanks for being patronising in your correcting me and thanks for the mindless sheep insult (which although isn't directly poitned at me, clearly shows I'm the intended recipient).
From what I've seen this has not actually been proven yet, a few HTC Camera Cab's have been released which increase FPS a miniscule amount, but hardly a fix, and not really enough to say that poor Camera speeds are not because of lack of drivers. I'm not saying they definately are, but from your statement you seem to have completey dis-regarded drivers from the issue.
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You are right, my apologies - I have edited my post.
You will be interested to know that a Mod cannot ban himself - I know I tried yesterday but it tells me I'm an "invalid user" - I knew there was something wrong with me
Mike
heh ^
on a serious and honest note - i beleive that the lack of drivers might potentially have something to do with this, but not the camera
rendering an sms or an mms is mostly a one time render into a buffer of sorts which is then blitted onto the screen - obviously the blitting could/would be hardware accelerated but on a 320x240 screen you arent really going to see a significant slowdown due to moving memory around (as thats all is what happens - in well written software at least) unless the bandwidth is really small - some software however re-renders things based on the changing view rectangle - ie a browsers (internet exploder) view port or the icons in the scrolling programs list (i think this might be compounded by the actual icons not being cached by the OS, so it has to pull them from memory and process them every time) - the lag in these programs are caused by the program re-rendering things many times as the view rectangle changes - this would no doubt vastly improve if/when hw accelerated drivers come out.
to talk numbers 320*240*2 (the 2 is the 16bit colour) is 192k of data for a fullscreen of pixels (excluding any z/stencil/accum buffering etc) now i dont actually know the refresh rate of the device but im guessing its either 30hz or 60hz - so every second, worse case senario, 192k * 60 = 11.25Mb/s of pixel data is flying through the memory onto the screen. actually thats not worst case - because often with (proprietry, non-OS) z ordered windowing/raster systems, things are rendered back to front, sometimes with significant overdraw - pushing the pixel rate up even higher.
if you look at the camera in a nice light bright setting, its smooth and functional - this tells me that the memory has enough bandwidth.
programs that arent coded well (ie they just assume hw acceleration and cosntantly rerender) will feel crap and slow on software renderers - programs that are optimised will have considerably less lag on software but would be super sprightly on hardware. does any of this make sense?
as for the camera - same thing, its just a fullscreen blit of memory - i beleive the problem with the camera is the software that is controlling it and applying that superannoying constant nightmode filter - i can only assume this is being done because of the severely low quality of the camera especially in low light conditions (they must feel the need to 'beef it up' with software post processes).
anyway thats my tangential 2p
same problem here is there any solution so far?
OR again when the speed of the camera was put down to the drivers (and again newer software shows this was not the case).
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From what I've seen this has not actually been proven yet, a few HTC Camera Cab's have been released which increase FPS a miniscule amount, but hardly a fix, and not really enough to say that poor Camera speeds are not because of lack of drivers.
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So there is a slight fix for the camera. Can someone direct me to where it can be found?
Provoking headline, no? Well, first things first - I also agree to the position that there should be suitable video drivers for the Kaiser; I signed the petition and all. Nevertheless, I may have found another culprit:
I found that the frame rate drops noticeably as long as you tap on the screen (when running "Quake2", for instance). This tells me that the touchscreen is fully operational only if a touch is sensed - at least I wouldn't do this much differently. This is because it is relatively straightforward, fast and power saving a process if you want to sense the presence of a touch, as long as you can ignore the position. But it requires a certain sequence of events in order to determine the X & Y positions. Depending on the type of touchscreen and the supporting hardware, there may be certain processing delays.
Now my suspect is that the processor has to handle the touchscreen all by itself, just with the help of an A/D converter and a few port lines. Which means it may be subjected to a certain processing load if the exact position of a touch is to be analyzed.
Awaiting your comments...
Buster
2 theories about that .
first : if i disable TouchFlo software it should be no issue after that , like thousands of other PDA with "Stylus Only" Touchscreen .
second : if the drivers are aviable , the processor have more capacities for calculating the stylus/finger Position and anything might run smoother ...
also i have noticed that the issue is different in different windows , like in the programm screen its more laggy then in the settings screens
joolsthebear said:
2 theories about that .
first : if i disable TouchFlo software it should be no issue after that , like thousands of other PDA with "Stylus Only" Touchscreen .
second : if the drivers are aviable , the processor have more capacities for calculating the stylus/finger Position and anything might run smoother ...
also i have noticed that the issue is different in different windows , like in the programm screen its more laggy then in the settings screens
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1st: TouchFlo is off in my case. 2nd: Thats right. I should have added that the drivers may be responsible as well (do you have good ones ;-) ??). But even with the best possible drivers there will be a certain maximum detection speed, depending on the touchscreen architecture (well, a resistive one shouldn't represent much of a problem). I only wondered whether the overall detection speed is so low that it can impact video rendering. Last paragraph: thats another factor (window handler, I 'd say), apart from touchscreen processing - but only as long as these handlers are running. Certain games take over the system almost completely, so there won't be much resources available to the normal windows processing.
yes, this issue has been covered many times over, even at htcclassaction.org
i think the slowness of scrolling the programs menu is not due to no graphics drivers, as the settings menu exhibits no such lag. i suspect te programs menu is jerky as the system must reload icons/data as items come into view - i beleive this is a caching (or lack of) issue.
the touchscren takes up a lot of cpu and as far as i can tell it doesnt matter what program has focus. touching the screen and moving my finger around produces around 50% cpu usage with both touchflo turned on and off (via the settings icon).
fusi said:
i think the slowness of scrolling the programs menu is not due to no graphics drivers, as the settings menu exhibits no such lag. i suspect te programs menu is jerky as the system must reload icons/data as items come into view - i beleive this is a caching (or lack of) issue.
the touchscren takes up a lot of cpu and as far as i can tell it doesnt matter what program has focus. touching the screen and moving my finger around produces around 50% cpu usage with both touchflo turned on and off (via the settings icon).
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That's what I meant.
Buster
hi,
this question because i really think the vga screen is very good for some issues but in tomtom we really need big glasses to see correctly poi for exemple...
and also maybe we can set up the diamond as Qvga for native mode ? like that performance will be better maybe ?
People in xda say than they hav lag in tomtom, maybe it's because of using a lot a cpu for tomtom (tomtom i think is not optimised for diamond) in vga mode because i also encounter lag with tomtom and no lag with igo 8 who is very "luquid"
sorry for my bad english
lomiz from France
Usually, lcd panels "don't like" another resolution, then the native.
The "native" screen size of the diamond is 640x480 and this will never change - unless you replace the screen. As mentioned above, if you wanted the screen to work in a lower resolution and you found a way to do this, you would probably use up extra processing power (and so more battery) "down scaling" the picture. This would almost certainly mean things would be slower.
That said, as I understand it, we do have custom graphics chips in the diamond and if they have driver support (almost all phones with the Nvidea chipset don't have driver support) then it maybe possible i suppose? Again, it would push things out of scale though and probably still use more power in the long run as you are asking the chips to work harder - even though its a lower res.
Monty Burns said:
The "native" screen size of the diamond is 640x480 and this will never change - unless you replace the screen. As mentioned above, if you wanted the screen to work in a lower resolution and you found a way to do this, you would probably use up extra processing power (and so more battery) "down scaling" the picture. This would almost certainly mean things would be slower.
That said, as I understand it, we do have custom graphics chips in the diamond and if they have driver support (almost all phones with the Nvidea chipset don't have driver support) then it maybe possible i suppose? Again, it would push things out of scale though and probably still use more power in the long run as you are asking the chips to work harder - even though its a lower res.
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As VGA is an integer multiple of VGA resolution, there should be no GPU time problem for this (it lites 4 pixels instead of 1). But the GPS lag seems to have nothing to do with graphic processing. If you try to simulate a trip, you'll see that there's no screen lag. And lag problem on diamond seems to be more a GPS chip problem : your position seems not to be updated very often, that's why TTT or any other GPS app lag : it's jumping from one position to another, according to GPS chip informations.
(sorry for my poor english... i'm french)
Araldwenn said:
As VGA is an integer multiple of VGA resolution, there should be no GPU time problem for this (it lites 4 pixels instead of 1). ....
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Exactly. BUT Its not a case of just "knowing" that 1 pixel = 4, it would have to calculate that for EVERY pixel, for EVERY refresh. Obviously, its not a huge demand, our TV's do it all the time but it will add extra work load which will take time and battery.
well the title says it all. What would be your realistic dream HTC phone? (hopefully if we stay realistic htc will use this as a source of ideas! hehe... never know eh?)
Here is mine (of course if they go higher than that no problem with me... ex the ram and stuff)
Basic stuff:
600mghz processor
300mb ram
3" wvga or svga
3+mp camera + front vga cam
touchflo
wifi, bluetooth, gps, high speed
SLIDE OUT KEYBOARD IS A MUST!!!!
Extra stuff:
-USB host capabilities!!!!
-Wimax (programmable so i can use an other company's service of wimax with my phone)
-DUAL sdhc slot
-Biometric reader (can't they use the screen's touch capabilities to say scan the distance between your knuckles or something, because those finger scanners are finicky... if its the finger scanner, it HAS to also be the "wake up" so when you can it scans AND turns it back on)
-DUAL BOOT! comes with wm6.1 but you can use Android and some things like calendar, notes, alarms, e-mail and other settings and such are automatically used in both modes.
-built in software to turn your phone into a router\wi-fi hotspot (much easier and more stable than bluetooth)
-this goes against everything cellphones companies do. MAKE IT THICKER! and add a bigger battery. I would GLADLY add 1 cm to my Mogul to get a mega battery, but not those third party extra backings, they just make it lumpy and un-compatible with the belt holster it comes with)
Sony CLIE UX50 form-factor
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/images/1843_large.jpg
Wifi, Bluetooth
3MP camera
GSM and CDMA versions
~400 - ~500 mghz processor
Small, OLED screen on the top of the device for seeing notifications
Backlight, easy to use keyboard
VGA screen
Small, thin, but good battery life
and either WM 7 or Android
First off. I just came here to say this. Your title is contridicting (Did I spell that right?). You can't have something realistic if it's a dream Don't argue with me on that. You know dreams aren't real.
Kraize said:
First off. I just came here to say this. Your title is contridicting (Did I spell that right?). You can't have something realistic if it's a dream Don't argue with me on that. You know dreams aren't real.
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dream (drēm) Pronunciation Key
n.
A series of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep.
A daydream; a reverie.
A state of abstraction; a trance.
A wild fancy or hope.
A condition or achievement that is longed for; an aspiration: a dream of owning their own business.
One that is exceptionally gratifying, excellent, or beautiful: Our new car runs like a dream.
3mp camera??? you do realize that there is a 8mp Nokia phone right? so saying 8mp would be realistic lol.
Anyphnoe with the new nVidia tegra chip would be awsome. And a lot of hardware keys.
BTW: What about the sentence "My dream comes true"?
mikeeey said:
3mp camera??? you do realize that there is a 8mp Nokia phone right? so saying 8mp would be realistic lol.
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xD this is a WM forum, no chance to convince me of buying a nokia...not even the new touch-thingy, its a symbian crap-phone.
Mikulec said:
Anyphnoe with the new nVidia tegra chip would be awsome. And a lot of hardware keys.
BTW: What about the sentence "My dream comes true"?
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Hell, yeah, Tegra rocks ! Hardware keys...yes, not too much though.
I think the most important thing about camera is that it´s responding fast, not like the latest HTC devices..I read the Xperias cam isn´t that bad..? Anyway.
My specs for a phone next year:
800-1000Mhz, ~300 MB Ram, ~500 MB internal storage, SDHC support, powerful graphics-engine, long-lasting battery (new technologies could help with that), G-Sensor, (better) Light sensor, proximity sensor (maybe),
3"-3.5" display with WVGA, 3.5mm audiojack, BT 2.0, WiMAX, high-quality earphones (Sennheiser or something similar)
BUT, the most of all: WM 6.5 or even 7 with support for all the eye candy stuff like shake-control, multitouch etc..and of course: speed
Extra stuff:
built in software to work with friends, play multiplayer games on it and remote control software for my PC.
for free and easy remote controll software use www.logmein.com its what i use but it does require a data connection. works great, I used it to check what my printer model was at the store the other day when i forgot to take it down to buy ink
as for the nvidia chip *droooooooooooool* had not thought of that!