Hallo,
I'm new to PPC and realised the scrolling and viewing of sms & mms is very slow. . Initially I thought it was normal for PPC, but my friend told me is abnormal after he view it.
Any advise please.
Good day
Most likely related to the lack of drivers for the Kaiser.... but I'm sure someboday else can confirm.
Audio said:
Most likely related to the lack of drivers for the Kaiser.... but I'm sure someboday else can confirm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mmm. And that's based on what precisely? Actually it's probably unlikely to be due to the drivers. ********* Edited for pettiness.
Some people are tending to attribute problems to video drivers and little help or thought is being put into what the real cause of problems may be.
This is the same kind of mis-information as when folk were saying the PIE scrolling was down to the drivers (and again it was unrelated to them) OR again when the speed of the camera was put down to the drivers (and again newer software shows this was not the case).
In reply to the OP. Please give us some more detail, circumstances when it happens, how slow is it, are you running any other programs concurrently etc.
Mike
ive noticed that after about 2 hours on my phone (with under 45% memory usage) my txt messages also lag. i write the entire message and it takes like 30 secounds for the message to show up for me to be able to send it. its really annoying
Obviously I'm no Kaiser Wizz, which is why I didn't say "Your problem is because of lack of drivers" (I also missed the sms bit, and thought the issue was only related to MMS, which reading again makes my first post sound insane), but thanks for being patronising in your correcting me and thanks for the mindless sheep insult (which although isn't directly poitned at me, clearly shows I'm the intended recipient).
OR again when the speed of the camera was put down to the drivers (and again newer software shows this was not the case).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I've seen this has not actually been proven yet, a few HTC Camera Cab's have been released which increase FPS a miniscule amount, but hardly a fix, and not really enough to say that poor Camera speeds are not because of lack of drivers. I'm not saying they definately are, but from your statement you seem to have completey dis-regarded drivers from the issue.
try messing around with the cache tweaks, or flash a new rom
should i increase or decrease the cache in this situation?
Audio said:
Obviously I'm no Kaiser Wizz, which is why I didn't say "Your problem is because of lack of drivers" (I also missed the sms bit, and thought the issue was only related to MMS, which reading again makes my first post sound insane), but thanks for being patronising in your correcting me and thanks for the mindless sheep insult (which although isn't directly poitned at me, clearly shows I'm the intended recipient).
From what I've seen this has not actually been proven yet, a few HTC Camera Cab's have been released which increase FPS a miniscule amount, but hardly a fix, and not really enough to say that poor Camera speeds are not because of lack of drivers. I'm not saying they definately are, but from your statement you seem to have completey dis-regarded drivers from the issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are right, my apologies - I have edited my post.
You will be interested to know that a Mod cannot ban himself - I know I tried yesterday but it tells me I'm an "invalid user" - I knew there was something wrong with me
Mike
heh ^
on a serious and honest note - i beleive that the lack of drivers might potentially have something to do with this, but not the camera
rendering an sms or an mms is mostly a one time render into a buffer of sorts which is then blitted onto the screen - obviously the blitting could/would be hardware accelerated but on a 320x240 screen you arent really going to see a significant slowdown due to moving memory around (as thats all is what happens - in well written software at least) unless the bandwidth is really small - some software however re-renders things based on the changing view rectangle - ie a browsers (internet exploder) view port or the icons in the scrolling programs list (i think this might be compounded by the actual icons not being cached by the OS, so it has to pull them from memory and process them every time) - the lag in these programs are caused by the program re-rendering things many times as the view rectangle changes - this would no doubt vastly improve if/when hw accelerated drivers come out.
to talk numbers 320*240*2 (the 2 is the 16bit colour) is 192k of data for a fullscreen of pixels (excluding any z/stencil/accum buffering etc) now i dont actually know the refresh rate of the device but im guessing its either 30hz or 60hz - so every second, worse case senario, 192k * 60 = 11.25Mb/s of pixel data is flying through the memory onto the screen. actually thats not worst case - because often with (proprietry, non-OS) z ordered windowing/raster systems, things are rendered back to front, sometimes with significant overdraw - pushing the pixel rate up even higher.
if you look at the camera in a nice light bright setting, its smooth and functional - this tells me that the memory has enough bandwidth.
programs that arent coded well (ie they just assume hw acceleration and cosntantly rerender) will feel crap and slow on software renderers - programs that are optimised will have considerably less lag on software but would be super sprightly on hardware. does any of this make sense?
as for the camera - same thing, its just a fullscreen blit of memory - i beleive the problem with the camera is the software that is controlling it and applying that superannoying constant nightmode filter - i can only assume this is being done because of the severely low quality of the camera especially in low light conditions (they must feel the need to 'beef it up' with software post processes).
anyway thats my tangential 2p
same problem here is there any solution so far?
OR again when the speed of the camera was put down to the drivers (and again newer software shows this was not the case).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I've seen this has not actually been proven yet, a few HTC Camera Cab's have been released which increase FPS a miniscule amount, but hardly a fix, and not really enough to say that poor Camera speeds are not because of lack of drivers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So there is a slight fix for the camera. Can someone direct me to where it can be found?
Related
When the video driver is released, (if there even is one) does that mean its going to fix all of these?
-Keyboard lag
-Touchscreen lag
-Camera lag
-Video lag
-Phone freezing
-Battery life quickly dieing
-Landscape to portrait ... and other way around..faster..
Just wondering..
Thanks
No proof on most... but keybaord lag.... not likely!!
Try turning off the auto-correct or auto-insert / guess thingy. (or change it to 4-6 letters before it guesses the word you want!)
the other fixes will depend what you already have done (ie there is a newer camera app on here, if you dont have it - it might resolve your camera problems etc etc).
I cant see it fixing the touchscreen lag - unless the device is busy drawing pcitures for you whcih is why its slow to respond.
Phone freezing.... could be so many things!! who knows
Video lag - possibly, maybe even probably. but it depends on why the lag is occuring, and in what sense you mean video lag (call, record, playback etc etc). Apparently there is a problem with the main camera in video mode in poor light situations, however the front camera doesn't have the same problems (although equally doesn't have the same output)
Bat life... god knows! what are you doing? all movie playback? quite probably! All standby with no screen on, just waiting for your mum to call once a week? then not very likely!
screen switching - almost certainly!
Really, it will depend entirely on what you use your phone for, and what you have done to your phone to start with (or what else you do at the same time as any dirver install)
Will a quad sli gfx setup make my computer display look better? Depends entirely! if i run in a CLI - then no!
I know that it might sound like a mindless rant, but hear me out on this one please.
There is a thread in the TyTN I section and there are entries in the wiki which suggest that different series of Herms had different problems. There also seem to be different Kaisers out there that have different hardware and have more or less lag. Unwired4 is trying to link that to the VSBenchmark score, while I hope that it can be linked to the series number.
The serial number seems to be in format of HTnnn??nnnnn XTnn where ?? are letters and n's are numbers. The wiki entry only uses the HTnnn part, and I believe that the XTnn part is probably the country or area or factory or something, but could be useful if included.
As for definitions of what is laggy and not laggy performance, which is hard to define, the following videos will be good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz1J6h4rq1U
Not laggy switching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=recxf0f4twY
Laggy switching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1rzCAmpt9s
Not laggy TomTom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4
Laggy TomTom (also not laggy TomTom on a Magician)
If you do not use TomTom, please state that. I am not sure if CoPilot has the same problems or not.
Also, please note that the issue discussed in this thread is not the lack of drivers or slow video playback. And please compare your Kaiser to the ones in videos, as it is crucial that we use some standards of measuring "lag", as it is basically measured by the rule of the thumb to build some statistics and possibly find out which series are affected by the issue. We are not trying to link the "level of happiness" to the serial number like some peopl pointed out in the "gruesome" thread, as it involves too many factors such as expectancies, value, money paid, comparison, and specific usage of the phone. Also, if you had the motherboard replaced and your device performs better now, but still has the old SN, please state the way it performed before the fix.
The SN is written under the battery, and it might also be a good idea not to show the last 5 digits of the main section of it.
I will start with the branding, my own SN, country of origin, date of purchase, presence of lag.
Updates (ordered by series number):
HT735GB
Laggy switching, laggy TomTom - HTC TyTN II (Russia, Dec07)
HT735
Possible laggy switching, non-laggy TomTom - (UK?)
HTC736GB
Laggy switching, laggy TomTom - (Netherlands, Aug07)
HT748GB
Non-laggy switching, non-laggy TomTom - o2 XDA Stellar (UK, Dec 07)
HT802
Possible laggy switching, non-laggy Garmin - o2 XDA Stellar (UK?)
Laggy switching and TomTom
HTC736GB (Netherlands) august '07
I have the switching lag, but TomTom seems to run perfectly.
Full res DivX are great too playing in the latest Coreplayer.
bluchrome said:
I have the switching lag, but TomTom seems to run perfectly.
Full res DivX are great too playing in the latest Coreplayer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which series code do you have, Bluchrome?
Yeah, I gotta get myself that latest CorePlayer too.
Mikeer said:
I know that it might sound like a mindless rant, but hear me out on this one please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mikeer said:
Well, the device I have was purchased in early December, but that was in a small city in eastern Russia, so it is most probably from some early series.
I remember your thread about the fact that your Kaiser performs fine when it comes to GUI, and it was probably the first time I realised that there are some series that are just plain slow and the ones that are more or less fast. DO you use TomTom? If you do, does it perform like the Magician, or like the Kaiser in the famous video?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Figured I would reply to you on your own thread, and keep the topics focused!
o2 XDA Stellar
HT748GB (UK, Dec 07)
No lag on either
FWIW, I made a video of my phones performance in responce to yours. Sorry about the poor quality, but you can see the performance difference!
Mine performs more like the Magician and if you watch the thing thorugh, you can see my screen switch rate is substantially faster than yours. Hopefully from that video you can see why until I saw yours I was thinking that people were moaning over nothing and asking the question "How much quicker do you want it?!"
I'm certainly with you in thinking there is something to the build version and the fact that o2 UK held back on launching their Kaiser varient for a couple of months!
Steve-C said:
Figured I would reply to you on your own thread, and keep the topics focused!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the input
And your Stellar really does does work better than my TyTN, so far we can assume that 735 and 736 series are faulty and 748 should be ok
A bit too early to draw conclusions though
I picked up a tytn II (kaiser) today. I charged for about 5 hours. picked up my location with seconds with tomtom. but updating is real slow!
Mikeer said:
Thanks for the input
And your Stellar really does does work better than my TyTN, so far we can assume that 735 and 736 series are faulty and 748 should be ok
A bit too early to draw conclusions though
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HT735
Up to 1 second to orientate screen.
Tomtom no sign of the lag.
However the above is variable. Regardless of running programs, the screen rotate can vary from virtually instant to 3 seconds.
Tomtom on a rare occassion will appear to completely freeze and then jump. But I think that's likely more to do with dropping a satellite or two. Otherwise I have not had the slow re-draw or laggy behaviour (per the utube videos)
So yes, a bit too early, but worth gathering more data. Perhaps it's not the serial that's the key but qualcomm batch numbers. Then again we are talking dozens of variables here.
Mike
Tomtom on a rare occassion will appear to completely freeze and then jump. But I think that's likely more to do with dropping a satellite or two.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its unlikely this is the problem, I had a nokia running tom tom and no such problems. The Kaiser has a very good GPS chipset and Tom tom should cope.
I do think all the HTC plugins and and all the gimmick touch flo stuff is a large part of the problem. It looks like on mike processor usage is very high.
mikechannon said:
HT735
Up to 1 second to orientate screen.
Tomtom no sign of the lag.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, now it seems that even the same devices within a series perform differently.
That is an interesting observation =)
My switching isn't as slow as some videos, but no where near as fast as the one you provided (running stock AT&T rom).
I haven't fully tested GPS Nav yet. I got Destinator on the way (I heard it's a pain to use, but it apparently has the best and most updated maps of Mexico )
But in general video playback, NES and SNES Emulators has its ups and downs. Sometimes running smoother and others running choppy compared to my old PXA255 / 64 RAM ipaq wm5 ppc which still lies around.
HT802
mikechannon said:
Up to 1 second to orientate screen.
However the above is variable. Regardless of running programs, the screen rotate can vary from virtually instant to 3 seconds.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ditto, although I have Garmin rather than TomTom :s
mikechannon said:
HT735
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mike, I notice you say your on the o2 network. Do you have the Stellar or an unbranded Kaiser?
Maybe you blew the HT735 theory out of the water, but the one about the Stellar being better could still be valid....
I have an O2 XDA Stellar and I've been doing a few quick tests this morning and I've come up with this.
If there are programs running in the background, the portrait-landscape switch takes about a second. Switching back to portrait takes just a bit longer (going back to portrait always seems to take longer)
However, if I close all programs beforehand, the switching from portrait to landscape is practically instant with only a slight delay switching back. It is worth noting at this point that I have the sound disabled for the screen switching.
Tomtom is smooth in both Portrait and landscape modes and a video compressed in MP4 format at 320x240 plays perfectly.
BUT, I have also noticed the intermittent audio lag problem while playing music on it (regardless of player used) and a very definite stutter in either ringtones or text/email alerts. This makes me think that perhaps that when the audio hardware is initializing to playback, it may be hogging the cpu slowing the rest of the device down which could be contributory to some of the issues noted in this forum.
I'm not suggesting that the audio bug is responsible for all of the Tytn II's issues but, in my case, it certainly looks like it's playing a part in it.
Anyone else come across this?
Slow Rendering TomTom
I think it is worth pointing out that TomTom is a lot quicker & smoother if you remove all of the POIs.
I realised this when installing it on a friends symbian phone & wondered why it was so much faster than my "powerful Windows Mobile device". I didn't put the POIs on because the MMC I was working with only had enough room for the Speed Cams.
Now I keep all of my POIs on my MicroSD in a seperate folder close to the map folder so, before I plan a journey, if I need a POI I will just copy the 2 required files into the Map folder before starting up TomTom. The difference is quite massive if you ask me.
Maybe you are already aware of this, and I apologise if this is old news, but it seems people are still having problems with lagging & I don't, so thought this might help. Granted, having all of the POIs on (or as many as it will allow you to use at any one time) is useful if you're in a hurry, but IMO you pay a high price for that convenience in lagging video rendering.
I have tried it without the Speed Cams too & it's even better, but I cant do without those warnings on there, so I can deal with a slight loss in performance for the sake of them.
Give it a go and see what you think. If this was unknown until now, I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
NOW LETS GET THESE VIDEO DRIVERS SORTED!
really really really laggy switching.
Tomtom is somewhere in between the two videos.
Mine's a UK O2 XDA Stellar with stock ROM.
HT743G0 USA AT&T Tilt
Early November 07
mild lag switching, no lag on Tomtom.
The lag is contributed to the ROM you have and how many software you've installed. The original AT&T ROM lags BIG TIME like in this video. I was pissed. Then I flashed the ROM to Alex's clean multimedia. After I flashed the ROM I was so amazed at how fast it switches. It switches the screen just as fast as this video After the flash, I started to install tons of software. So far I've intsalled about 116mb of software into the phone with 36mb free. Now the switching takes about 1-2 seconds each way. I can live with that but not no 3-5 second lag.
As for TomTom (version 6.010 US and Canada map) I dont have the lag. But when it's turning I get tearing once in a while, the same tearing during video playback.
HTC737GB
T-Mobile Vario III
Lags in everything, today, switching, TomTom (You've all seen my video!)
Today it's taking 7 seconds to rotate! :S
Provoking headline, no? Well, first things first - I also agree to the position that there should be suitable video drivers for the Kaiser; I signed the petition and all. Nevertheless, I may have found another culprit:
I found that the frame rate drops noticeably as long as you tap on the screen (when running "Quake2", for instance). This tells me that the touchscreen is fully operational only if a touch is sensed - at least I wouldn't do this much differently. This is because it is relatively straightforward, fast and power saving a process if you want to sense the presence of a touch, as long as you can ignore the position. But it requires a certain sequence of events in order to determine the X & Y positions. Depending on the type of touchscreen and the supporting hardware, there may be certain processing delays.
Now my suspect is that the processor has to handle the touchscreen all by itself, just with the help of an A/D converter and a few port lines. Which means it may be subjected to a certain processing load if the exact position of a touch is to be analyzed.
Awaiting your comments...
Buster
2 theories about that .
first : if i disable TouchFlo software it should be no issue after that , like thousands of other PDA with "Stylus Only" Touchscreen .
second : if the drivers are aviable , the processor have more capacities for calculating the stylus/finger Position and anything might run smoother ...
also i have noticed that the issue is different in different windows , like in the programm screen its more laggy then in the settings screens
joolsthebear said:
2 theories about that .
first : if i disable TouchFlo software it should be no issue after that , like thousands of other PDA with "Stylus Only" Touchscreen .
second : if the drivers are aviable , the processor have more capacities for calculating the stylus/finger Position and anything might run smoother ...
also i have noticed that the issue is different in different windows , like in the programm screen its more laggy then in the settings screens
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1st: TouchFlo is off in my case. 2nd: Thats right. I should have added that the drivers may be responsible as well (do you have good ones ;-) ??). But even with the best possible drivers there will be a certain maximum detection speed, depending on the touchscreen architecture (well, a resistive one shouldn't represent much of a problem). I only wondered whether the overall detection speed is so low that it can impact video rendering. Last paragraph: thats another factor (window handler, I 'd say), apart from touchscreen processing - but only as long as these handlers are running. Certain games take over the system almost completely, so there won't be much resources available to the normal windows processing.
yes, this issue has been covered many times over, even at htcclassaction.org
i think the slowness of scrolling the programs menu is not due to no graphics drivers, as the settings menu exhibits no such lag. i suspect te programs menu is jerky as the system must reload icons/data as items come into view - i beleive this is a caching (or lack of) issue.
the touchscren takes up a lot of cpu and as far as i can tell it doesnt matter what program has focus. touching the screen and moving my finger around produces around 50% cpu usage with both touchflo turned on and off (via the settings icon).
fusi said:
i think the slowness of scrolling the programs menu is not due to no graphics drivers, as the settings menu exhibits no such lag. i suspect te programs menu is jerky as the system must reload icons/data as items come into view - i beleive this is a caching (or lack of) issue.
the touchscren takes up a lot of cpu and as far as i can tell it doesnt matter what program has focus. touching the screen and moving my finger around produces around 50% cpu usage with both touchflo turned on and off (via the settings icon).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what I meant.
Buster
Well, i was here from the beginning. I didn't start the petition, but i posted it and asked for a sticky. I was one of the first few that posted about the lack of 3D. I'm very angry about my slow crappy Kaiser. But...
A BIG BUT:
- The "drivers" would NOT solve the slow video we see in TCPMP, since TCPMP decompresses in software. And any release of CorePlayer has the same performance. Maybe one released after the "drivers" are installed would be better.
- The "drivers" would NOT score higher in SPB benchmark.
We don't actually need "drivers". We need a build of WM6 (WM6.1) which is using a better SDK (libraries) from Qualcomm.
This is what i think needs fixing:
- Accurate VSync - so we don't get tearing anymore - this may also solve some slow programs.
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
BTW: the 4.3k score on graphics that the Kaiser got, and any other graphic benchmark is VERY VERY FAKE - they say 40+ FPS in some test, but i see 5 FPS on my screen (trust me, i know, i'm a render programmer in the game industry, i have an eye for these). What is actually happening is that the program says: draw this on the screen, and the hardware says "done" about 400 times a second, and it actually didn't render anything - this is what i mean by a good VSync.
I say this again - if we had 100% working drivers on our Kaiser right now, and you try them with TCPMP -> no difference, trust me. If you run Quake for PPC -> no difference, again. You would probably never know you had HW acceleration. The 2D HW part would be noticed in the Windows GUI (maybe) and in some programs (very few - those that use DirectDraw, and use it correctly)
Maybe we should try asking for what i said - no tearing, better sound, and maybe we'd get it.
Please, please don't post if you don't understand what i'm saying. This is for the big boys
agreed many of the ports of old 3d games like duke3d, doom1-2 quake1-3 .....
would most likely never benefit from a real driver as they are old games which
dident even benefit from 3d cards in pcs
so thinking that a driver will make anything faster is likely to cause tears
plus the ati powers of the kaiser and others is really not much of a 3d powerhouse like the geforce counterpart it does add some 2d speed up but thats about it
which is prob why a money aware company like qualcomm would bother to pay ati
the pretty small fee for their license
but at the end of the day htc are cheapskates
I understand your points and believe that everything you said is true. (Specially about the video drivers not solving the slow video problem).
However I don't see any problems with the audio on the Kaiser (at least on mine).
But yes, I also say that we need a better OS implementation for the Qualcomm chip.
Should we start a new (and proven ineffective) petition to HTC?
Cheers!
RayanMX
what borthers me is that htc seem to be happy enough to be the biggest wm device maker rather then really making an efford to compeat with iphone they seem to sleep on the bed of roses that iphone not being that available outside of us and not being 3g or having sd interface
kinda sad imho :S
Oh, and the funny part is that if they would have fixed the tearing and the DirectDraw bug before releasing it, nobody would have cared about the 3D HW not being used. Well, maybe me, omikr0n, and ten other guys would have cared, but it would have been forgotten in a few weeks.
The 2D DirectDraw was noticed only because TCPMP and CorePlayer have the option to use DDraw. And it could have been fixed - CorePlayer devs found a way around it.
In the end this is just a rushed device, using a cheap (and slow) platform - 400Mhz means nothing, it behaves like a 300Mhz Intel or 240Mhz TI OMAP - not a fact, just an analogy.
Just have one comment about the sound...
did you try the sound using any stereo speakers other than the mono speaker on the device itself? it is actually one of the finest and cleanest audio output i've heard for a while, i compared to ipod and tilt's sound was MUCH better
RPG0 said:
This is what i think needs fixing:
- Accurate VSync - so we don't get tearing anymore - this may also solve some slow programs.
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
BTW: the 4.3k score on graphics that the Kaiser got, and any other graphic benchmark is VERY VERY FAKE - they say 40+ FPS in some test, but i see 5 FPS on my screen (trust me, i know, i'm a render programmer in the game industry, i have an eye for these). What is actually happening is that the program says: draw this on the screen, and the hardware says "done" about 400 times a second, and it actually didn't render anything - this is what i mean by a good VSync.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Being a developer for such a long time, I feel you.
We should release our own benchmark program that we know won't get nop'ed out by some other timing code if we can't get to the vsync register.
The WM default midi soundbank is still crap as well as playback. My SE T610, and all my Palm Pilots playback midi with much more clarity. I know it's not the hardware because the alternative GSPlayer+ MIDI player plays the same samples just fine.
What can be learnt from the Apple II days is to just vote with the wallet. Fighting the hardware maker is wasted time and effort. Only complaint that gets their attention is a walking wallet.
edit: you know, we used to rawbuffer most of our graphics on the same resolution screen (320x240) on a vastly inferior CPU. No reason we can't try to do the same on the Kaiser with a super ARMv6 asm optimized library. We just need to shut up the OS from stealing so many cycles.
Of course I'm only thinking of 2D gaming without video decoding, and only MIDI music since those are the least CPU intensive.
ahussam said:
Just have one comment about the sound...
did you try the sound using any stereo speakers other than the mono speaker on the device itself? it is actually one of the finest and cleanest audio output i've heard for a while, i compared to ipod and tilt's sound was MUCH better
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
I forgot I had an iPod since I got my Tilt. With an 8gb SD who needs one?
How do you come to the conclusion that drivers wouldn't help DDraw applications like CorePlayer and such?
Devices with proper drivers seem to work just fine with DirectDraw and they are able to create a proper HW overlay etc.
Granted it would not solve decoding of video, that's given. But it could/would/should surely speed up the actual rendering.
Writing to the dedicated video RAM instead of creating a framebuffer in normal system RAM should be faster. Hardware overlay should be faster than just using the standard rendering paths etc.
As for games: of course they won't be sped up unless the actual game supports D3D or OGL. Most games don't (even "fancy" 3d ones) but some do, such as COD.
Also, a proper DDI driver can and will speed up 2D rendering in general. Doing simple stuff like rendering just a menu is WAY too slow right now and that's unrelated to vsync. (There's certainly a world of difference between lacking the smootheness and tearing "freeness" of proper vsync and just performance in general, it shouldn't take a full second to draw a simple screen in WM if no other operations are active.)
As for sound I did have those problems but as of the latest 1.65.14.06 radio my audio is pretty much top notch. Sounds just as good as my ipod or my creative zen players and a whole lot better than the integrated soundcard of my laptop (realtek hd audio).
That's both during calls but especially when listening to music.
Of course with the bundled headphones or even with HTCs "high end" headphones it all sounds like crap. With a proper set of of in ear plugs (I've a "cheap" Shure set and a more expensive Sony one and they both sound simply awesome.)
Actually I really like using it as an audio player as it supports WMA Lossless (undocumented feature of Windows Mobile 6), few devices.
For whatever reason though poorly compressed songs sound much worse on this device compared to MP3-players in general.
If it's because the codec is poor or if it's so great that it makes smaller variances noticable is hard to say (I'd go for poor codec) but it's certainly not due to "poor sound".
Thats my $0.2
RPG0 said:
- The "drivers" would NOT solve the slow video we see in TCPMP, since TCPMP decompresses in software. And any release of CorePlayer has the same performance. Maybe one released after the "drivers" are installed would be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to disagree here...
The current routines being used for DirectDraw are slow and inefficient. Probably using very slow CPU calls. It's for sure a software CPU routine drawing the pixels.
Anyone who has done raw hardware video programming can attest if you popped an interrupt to draw one pixel on the screen vs using DMA access the difference is night and day. The interrupt method chews up CPU cycles drawing the pixels ont he screen vs the DMA method which doesn't waste CPU cycles and is far more efficient.
Pointing directdraw to use hooks into the GPU and or DMA access to a hardware frame buffer would improve things significantly (night and day). You can easily see this by playing a video on an old PPC6700 which has proper direct draw routine implemented. The difference is HUGE factor of 10 I'd say.
The slow video rendering has nothing to do with the CPU doing the video decompression. It has to do with the directdraw routines not being implemented efficiently and the CPU wasting it's cycles drawing pixels on the screen. You can see "tearing" because you can SEE the video refreshing the screen out of the vsync due to the slow directdraw routines that exist. The the CPU should be concentrating on decoding video not wasting cycles drawing the video. The directdraw routine should be writing to a framebuffer using DMA or some similar method.
This is what's going on (high level lame explantion). Pretend the below are mappings.
Method #1
DirectDraw -> IntXX (video interrupt)
or
Method #2
DirectDraw -> DMA (direct memory to the video card)
Using method #1 it will cost you CPU cycles just to draw the pixels. So not only does your device need to concentrate on decoding the video it also needs to waste CPU cycles drawing pixels on the screen one by one. And the larger the screen area your painting, the more CPU it costs you. You can even experience this on a device like the Mogul (6800); you can get faster frame rates when you draw less pixels.
Using method #2 drawing video costs your CPU basically no overhead and it can spend it cycles decoding the video. It will use DMA to write to a video frame buffer instead of making CPU calls to do it.
These are just examples, but this how it's broken from my hardware programming experience.
The post above mine is also a good reference.
I stand by my statement, that having a good DDraw implementation will not help. In theory, you're right, but on other devices (Htc Prophet aka Qtek S200 and HTC Touch) there was no difference between Raw framebuffer or GDI and DDraw. So real-life scenarios tend to prove me right.
The only reason things could speed up is the hardware conversion between YUV and RGB, but for a 320x240 frame, that takes very little time to do in software, and for some codecs, the conversion is not necessary. I can explain what YUV means, and why it's used in video/image compression if anyone is interested, but you can google youself.
About the sound part, maybe i have an old radio ROM, maybe i have a defective device or maybe it's just my configuration.
EDIT: Don't forget that even when using HW overlay, you STILL have to fill the surface with pixels (the pixels you just decoded), so you have to write 320x240 somewhere (with DDraw you write in the memory area you get with Lock(), in Raw framebuffer you write directly in an area that is drawn afterwards). If you ignore the YUV->RGB conversion, you gain NOTHING with DDraw.
As i said, i'm a game render programmer, and i did some image/video compression/decompression in my time, so you can get technical, I'll understand.
so !!
hi fpgo,so how are sony/ericsson getting round video prob on X1 xperia ? I guess their not going to market with a half crippled device, unlike htc,from what I can make out x1 is only a tweaked kaiser,so could we not just back engineer their solution ?
greatly disapointed with kaiser all round.if id known se version was due,id have waited to upgrade,still prefer my p910i,just no 3g.
tleaf100 said:
hi fpgo,so how are sony/ericsson getting round video prob on X1 xperia ? I guess their not going to market with a half crippled device, unlike htc,from what I can make out x1 is only a tweaked kaiser,so could we not just back engineer their solution ?
greatly disapointed with kaiser all round.if id known se version was due,id have waited to upgrade,still prefer my p910i,just no 3g.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you watch the CNET video from Bonnie Cha on the X1, you'll see it's actually pretty slow in the rendering as well, so forget that.
Now back to the experts.
X1
sorry,not seen video,will go and have a look.
was only an idea...
will leave to you "experts" ....
RPG0 said:
I stand by my statement, that having a good DDraw implementation will not help. In theory, you're right, but on other devices (Htc Prophet aka Qtek S200 and HTC Touch) there was no difference between Raw framebuffer or GDI and DDraw. So real-life scenarios tend to prove me right.
The only reason things could speed up is the hardware conversion between YUV and RGB, but for a 320x240 frame, that takes very little time to do in software, and for some codecs, the conversion is not necessary. I can explain what YUV means, and why it's used in video/image compression if anyone is interested, but you can google youself.
About the sound part, maybe i have an old radio ROM, maybe i have a defective device or maybe it's just my configuration.
EDIT: Don't forget that even when using HW overlay, you STILL have to fill the surface with pixels (the pixels you just decoded), so you have to write 320x240 somewhere (with DDraw you write in the memory area you get with Lock(), in Raw framebuffer you write directly in an area that is drawn afterwards). If you ignore the YUV->RGB conversion, you gain NOTHING with DDraw.
As i said, i'm a game render programmer, and i did some image/video compression/decompression in my time, so you can get technical, I'll understand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, YUV overlay support would be very nice, but I doubt we will see it working on kaiser (does Imageon even supports it?). But.. Working DDraw accel. would still help - for example when doing soft yuv->rgb conversion and double buffering result - you would definitively get better results if Kaiser have had hw accelerated bitblt (or at least less tearing).
*** Massive Brain Overload*** "Apparently these people are speaking a strange dialect I've never heard before" -Harold & Kumar Escape from Montanamo Bay
RPG0 said:
...
- Better implemented sound library - i can't believe nobody complained about the sound - which is the worst, ever, in the whole world, in the universe. It sound like an old radio. A broken old radio. A broken old radio in a Faraday cage tuned to the wrong frequency...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL! And that will be the funniest thing I hear all day. And I just woke up.
Oh, and since HTC said they are releasing a new ROM which fixes the speed of the device, but does not bring HW accel (drivers), i think my problems will be over.
new rom
ahh,and when is this magical fix for kaiser meant to be released to public ?
my kaiser has become 3g /hsdpa usb modem,and gone back to p910i for everyday use,kaiser too fussy/slow/clunky for busy gardener,keeping fingers crossed about s/e "paris".
Just a shameless bump
Hi all,
I've had my T for a week now after upgrading from an iPhone4. Originally I was eyeing up the 5 and the S3 then I spotted this little underdog that I hadn't even heard anything about. After scouting around for reviews it grew on me and after seeing it in the flesh I was sold and managed to get the last one in the Vodafone store.
I've never had an Android phone before, so I was a bit wary, but so far it is pretty much everything I expected it to be and I am really happy with it...
But I have spotted a few niggles and I'm wondering if other users have had noticed similar issues?
1) Auto brightness seems to jump around randomly at time and makes the phone look like either a. it's struggling to cope with what it's handling or b. it hasn't been implemented right and for some reason jumps between levels instead of smoothly raising or lowering the brightness. This doesn't happen all the time, mostly on the net, but I've also seen it while navigating the OS.
2) The camera is really slow to take any decent images. Quick launch boots to the camera pretty quickly but then it sits there trying to focus for the next few seconds and makes the quick launch seems pointless as it hangs fo so long after it has launched. Also any movement seems to blur the images pretty easily. Took pics of my 3 year old and my wife while we were bowling and even their arms moving as they walked back blurred!? The rest of the pic was great but it's not like they were running past the camera or anything.
3) When using Chrome does anyone else have it duplicate the last letter of every word you type? Alll off myy wordss weree lookingg likee thiss wheneverr II typedd anythingg. This wasn't happening anywhere else on the phone and after downloading FireFox I've got a decent browser, but I'm intrigued as to whether or not it was something I was doing?
4) Whenever I copy a video across I am only able to play 2-3 minutes of it even though it says that the file size is correct. All of my videos are .avi and whenever I try to copy them the phone my PC asks if I want to convert the files so that they are compatible with the phone. When I click yes my PC takes 45 min's-1hr to convert it and the file appears on my phone as a few hundred Mb but next to it the time dislpays 2-3 minutes duration. When you play it it cuts out at the 3 minute point. Is anyone else suffering this?
5) The storage capacity of the handset is only showing up as 10.8 Gb of which 1.08 is reserved space. Aren't these handsets meant to have 16Gb? Those figures are shown through the PC Companion and the settings tab on the phone.
So is anyone else experiencing the same niggles as above?
I still love the phone and I'm more than happy keeping it. I know some of the issues are down to my education but others definitely aren't and they'll end just being qwerks of the phone. If there's any way to resolve them then I'd be greatful to hear your solutions.
Cheers,
Stu.
Macflurry said:
5) The storage capacity of the handset is only showing up as 10.8 Gb of which 1.08 is reserved space. Aren't these handsets meant to have 16Gb? Those figures are shown through the PC Companion and the settings tab on the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's 10.8GB for the data/storage partition. They left 2GB for app storage only. 13GB total after formatting + OS seems about right.
I have the duplicate letter/word, think it's a chrome thing.
---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------
But I prefer it to my galaxys3
Sent from my LT30p using xda app-developers app
I thought id ask this here..
Does anyone notice when playing back recorded videos on the device, there is a weird knocking / grinding sound while the lens is focusing?
I will upload a few videos, you can actually hear the device focusing, might be normal, but, it was never like this with my arc....its apparent on multiple set scenses, with both the UK Generic and UK O2 firmware.
I've not tested video recording yet, but the camera module is very close to the left microphone (the phone records in stereo). I am guessing you can hear camera noise on the left channel when playing back?
Macflurry said:
Hi all,
1) Auto brightness seems to jump around randomly at time and makes the phone look like either a. it's struggling to cope with what it's handling or b. it hasn't been implemented right and for some reason jumps between levels instead of smoothly raising or lowering the brightness. This doesn't happen all the time, mostly on the net, but I've also seen it while navigating the OS.
4) Whenever I copy a video across I am only able to play 2-3 minutes of it even though it says that the file size is correct. All of my videos are .avi and whenever I try to copy them the phone my PC asks if I want to convert the files so that they are compatible with the phone. When I click yes my PC takes 45 min's-1hr to convert it and the file appears on my phone as a few hundred Mb but next to it the time dislpays 2-3 minutes duration. When you play it it cuts out at the 3 minute point. Is anyone else suffering this?
Cheers,
Stu.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
#1 try an app called Lux.
#4, try using MxPlayer, not the stock player... Also you don't have to convert the files.
#1, my Galaxy Note was the same until an update. Remember this is a brand new device and the software will get better with time. Apple don't get it right either but that may have been because you were holding it wrong
papped said:
#1 try an app called Lux.
#4, try using MxPlayer, not the stock player... Also you don't have to convert the files.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm using MX player and haven't had any problems regardless of what I throw at it (so far).
#5, a trick manufacturers use is to quote storage as 1000 bytes = 1kB, 1000kB = 1MB when the system reports actual memory based on 1024 bytes = 1kB, 1024kB = 1MB, etc so you get less reported than in the marketing specs.
Thanks for your input guys.
So far:
1) Autobrightness turned off and everything is good.
2) Still not too impressed with the camera. It takes too long to focus and do anything useful.
3) FireFox is still working perfectly compared to Chrome.
4) After deleting all the videos and copying them in from scratch, unconverted, they play perfectly with MX Player.
5) The memory thing makes sense but its a poor sales tactuc on the manufacturers part. In reality the customer is only concerned with how much useable memory a device has where in reality the Xperia T has a third less than you would expect. 1-2gb wouldnt be as bad but thus is over 5gb difference!!
Thanks again guys.
Noticed the camera lag seem slow when taking the pictures but whenever I look back on them they don't seem blurred.
So far I reckon Ive deleted between a third to half of my photos due to blurring.
Macflurry said:
So far I reckon Ive deleted between a third to half of my photos due to blurring.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Might sound a silly question, but how are you taking the pictures?
I ask because I started off using the camera with the screen off and just pressing the camera button (utilising the quick shot feature). In this scenario I had blurry photos and rubbish results half the time.
I changed the camera button behaviour to just launch the camera app and then press it again (or use the on-screen button) and my photos have been good pretty much all the time.
Hold either camera button to focus.. I rarely get any blurry photos
Sent from my Xperia T
Quickshot seems borderline useless for image quality. But on standard photos after I wait for it to focus, even the slightest movement seem to really blur the image. On other photos it can take that long to focus that you miss your shot.
I've tried taking the ISO settings off auto today to see if that helps.
So far it's the only thing that I feel lets the phone down compared to what you would expect it to be like when you read the spec.
Macflurry said:
Quickshot seems borderline useless for image quality. But on standard photos after I wait for it to focus, even the slightest movement seem to really blur the image. On other photos it can take that long to focus that you miss your shot.
I've tried taking the ISO settings off auto today to see if that helps.
So far it's the only thing that I feel lets the phone down compared to what you would expect it to be like when you read the spec.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only other thing I can suggest is there might be a fault with your phone. Do you know anyone else with a T? Do you have the same problem if you take pictures with their phone?!
Hi,
great thread! This phone is one of my favourites now that I'm considering a new handset. Feel free to share any issues that those lucky enough to have one encountered. Thanks
emuX said:
The only other thing I can suggest is there might be a fault with your phone. Do you know anyone else with a T? Do you have the same problem if you take pictures with their phone?!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm going to go and have a play with another one in the shop over the next few weeks when I find time just in case it is my phone but some how I just think it's the way it is.
So far it's my only remaining issue but it's not a deal breaker I still love the phone and look forward to JB next year.