Database Develop

[ASK] Windows Mobile 6.1 Professional

Yo All!
Is there a *Clean* version of WM6.1 Pro? It is better for the users to have their own softwares to install.. Cos, its a waste of space if we don't use 'em... Well, its just an opinion.. Thank You! Especially for Syed Ather and c_shekhar..

If i had my Hima rite now...u would have had a Clean ROM with The latest build by tonight
i can cook a perfect rom in less than 25 minutes

Thank You Very Much!! I'll be waitin'!

you dnt understand...I dnt have a Hima any more ( broke it while repairing )

crazyboy12345 said:
Yo All!
Is there a *Clean* version of WM6.1 Pro? It is better for the users to have their own softwares to install.. Cos, its a waste of space if we don't use 'em... Well, its just an opinion.. Thank You! Especially for Syed Ather and c_shekhar..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
May I update you here.
The ROM is of Fixed size and takes the same quantum of space on device whether loaded with applications or not. Thats why The efforts always remain to utilize every bit of spare space in ROM by packing in it the application softwares/utilities.
If you take an absolutely clean ROM and install the same applications on it separately, you land up wasting the precious storage memory. And you know very well that on Hima the storage memory is only 30MB. So packing as many utilities as possible inside the ROM is always useful.
You would be surprised to know that on my device I have embedded following utilities inside the ROM (customised for my use)
1. Phatpad
2. Smart secretary
3. neotiles (a game)
4. Handy Shoppers
5. rlToday 1.22
6. Call SMS blocker
And with more than 600 cotacts mail/sms synchronization still have abt 11MB of storage free.
I hope it can give you some idea on this issue.

Yes I agree with you master c_shekhar. but you should pack the utilities of most intrest in the ROM. It is good that you have removed many of those junky types in your new release.
I have downloaded the new version 6.1.2a16CS which is a new build 19209. And shall report you once I flash it.

Hi guys, maybe you could try another ROM from PDAVIET forum.
http://www.pdaviet.net/showthread.php?t=23970

c_shekhar said:
May I update you here.
The ROM is of Fixed size and takes the same quantum of space on device whether loaded with applications or not. Thats why The efforts always remain to utilize every bit of spare space in ROM by packing in it the application softwares/utilities.
.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay... I'm currently downloading yours... The WM6.1 6.1.2a16CS .... it looks promising!

it would be cool if we could put the contents of the ExtRom to an SD-Card and decide for ourselves what software we want on our Phones, that would be great.

You can, very easily, as with the previous rom

c_shekhar said:
May I update you here.
The ROM is of Fixed size and takes the same quantum of space on device whether loaded with applications or not. Thats why The efforts always remain to utilize every bit of spare space in ROM by packing in it the application softwares/utilities.
If you take an absolutely clean ROM and install the same applications on it separately, you land up wasting the precious storage memory. And you know very well that on Hima the storage memory is only 30MB. So packing as many utilities as possible inside the ROM is always useful.
You would be surprised to know that on my device I have embedded following utilities inside the ROM (customised for my use)
1. Phatpad
2. Smart secretary
3. neotiles (a game)
4. Handy Shoppers
5. rlToday 1.22
6. Call SMS blocker
And with more than 600 cotacts mail/sms synchronization still have abt 11MB of storage free.
I hope it can give you some idea on this issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A fresh clean minimal rom would be good for messing around with Ather90's and others rom kitchens c_shekhar, mabey you could post one made with the latest build 19209

Jadel said:
You can, very easily, as with the previous rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for clearing that up

my question is if u put lots of programs into the program memory, and cook it, will the device become slow like hell?

boby1911 said:
my question is if u put lots of programs into the program memory, and cook it, will the device become slow like hell?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont mix up the things.
The ROM size is fixed. So it does not affect the program memory.
If you simultaneously keep active many programs then the free program memory get reduced. And if the free Prog memory is too less then the device becomes very very slow.
AND, The device may become slow even if you are not left with sufficient Storage memory. So availablity of both type of memory is important..

if i may add:
ROM: (Read Only Memory)
Size: 30 MB
Purpose: Keeps all installer files (Operating System, Applications) runs only after every HARD RESET.
Features: Cannot be ERASED except my FLASHING. (in step 2 at flash, it says..erasing ROM data)
RAM: (Random Access Memory)
Size: 128 MB (distributed to Program Memory, Storage memory, Ramdisk)
Program Memory needed by device to run programs (like DDR module in a computer), this is reset every time you reset your device.
Storage Memory, is used to store programs installed in device (like a harddisk in a computer), this is soft and supposedly hard reset persistent.
RamDisk, is a storage disk that is generated by converting some RAM as storage area. (much like a 2nd harddisk for installing programs), this is soft and hard reset persistent, which IMO is dependent on the state of your backup battery, mine loses data most of the time.
so total memory you have in XDA 2 is:
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB
in wm2003 and previous ROMS, this is defined as:
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB - 64MB program, 64MB storage, with slider provided to move memory allocation.
in wm5,6,6.1
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB = PROGRAM+STORAGE+RAMDISK
i hope i get this right, but this is how i understand this, corrections would be welcome.

paulpax said:
if i may add:
in wm5,6,6.1
ROM 30MB
RAM 128MB = PROGRAM+STORAGE+RAMDISK
i hope i get this right, but this is how i understand this, corrections would be welcome.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
STORAGE is not part of RAM. Rest of understanding is OK...

Official WM6.1 from HTC for Kaiser and amount of RAM issue...

Hello,
As you know Kaiser has 128MB of RAM. When you open Memory in settings then you can see that there is only 85.32MB of Program memory. So where is 42,68MB of RAM? Is all gone for pagepool in this ROM?
Best regards.

Just like yr desktop, everything runs on the machine need memory (RAM). OS (WM6.1), driver, start-up program, phone dialer, today ... etc.

jackleung said:
Just like yr desktop, everything runs on the machine need memory (RAM). OS (WM6.1), driver, start-up program, phone dialer, today ... etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are talking about "in use" memory. I am talking about total memory what you can see in memory in settings...
After soft reset i have:
Total: 85.32 MB
In Use: 38:93 MB
Free: 46.39 MB
Anybody can explain me why total memory is only 85.32?

art12345 said:
You are talking about "in use" memory. I am talking about total memory what you can see in memory in settings...
After soft reset i have:
Total: 85.32 MB
In Use: 38:93 MB
Free: 46.39 MB
Anybody can explain me why total memory is only 85.32?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know exactly what you are talking about. In older ROMs 6.0 and I believe some of the older 6.1, that amount was closer to the 100MB mark.
Part of that (about 12MB) is used for page pool. However almost that amount was used on the older ROMs as well, so wouldn't account for the almost 15MB disparity we see.
I have asked this question myself a couple times in the ROM development forum...no one has provided an answer. Some suggest that they are using that RAM as additional 'cache' ram of one type or another to improve performance. That seems like it could be a logical reason since whenever you increase other cache's in the registry it takes memory out of that same chunk. The other answer could be that there are newer or more low level drivers that for one reason or another are taking up that RAM.
Fact is no one knows. My bet is on cache of some point, although i can't really say that I see an improvement that would warrant that 15MB of use. There's not much you can do about it at this point other than live with the diminished memory or flash an older ROM.

Before i had HTC Himalaya (128MB of RAM) with WM5 and there when you set up 16MB pagepool then all rest of RAM (112MB) was available in memory applet. I never tried Himalaya with WM6 ROM so i can't tell how much memory was available then. However, thanks for your reply. Regards.

Cooked ROM = More Memory?

I know the WM6.1 ROM footprint on my HTC is 128MB. But if I download and install a 'minimalistic' cooked ROM (without all the OEM junk), will that amount of memory be returned to the system for program use? IOW, if I find a cooked ROM that's 100MB, will that give me 28MB more RAM for program use? Or are all ROMs going to consume 128MB no matter what they do (or don't) include?

BillTheCat said:
if I find a cooked ROM that's 100MB, will that give me 28MB more RAM for program use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would give you more ROM, not RAM. That is, storage available for files and/or installed programs. The amount used by the ROM indeed depends on the software it already includes.

Ah. So the game is that the ROM footprint consumes 128MB, no matter what's in it? Is it safe to presume that WM is still using RAM for both storage and program execution?
For some reason, I remember on my HX4700 there was much dissatisfaction when WM went to v.5, because we always had the ability to move the system memory between storage space and runtime space. I guess the hardware on the Kaiser is operating differently then.
Please help me make sure I'm understanding this right.
What I need to do is to learn how to cook my own ROM based on a minimalistic starter, so I can pack in what I want to run, getting it out of RAM and off into ROM, right? IOW, I need to figure out how to move TomTom, MobileShell and other such applications that install resident to the device into ROM, freeing up the amount of storage/RAM that I have to work with. Correct?
If so, then one last question. What happens when I build in programs to ROM and then there are updates?

as of wm5 storage is rom
and application memory is ram

BillTheCat said:
Ah. So the game is that the ROM footprint consumes 128MB, no matter what's in it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. The Kaiser has 256MB of Flash memory. Part of it will be used as ROM, the exact amount depending on how much software is included in there. Usually 100-150MB, and those are write-protected. The rest is available as read-write storage.
BillTheCat said:
Is it safe to presume that WM is still using RAM for both storage and program execution?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. From WM5 on (like 3 years ago), file storage isn't done in RAM anymore but in the flash memory as described above. This allowed to prevent the problem where you'd lose all your stuff if your battery went down. Now you can remove the battery indefinitely without losing anything.
RAM is therefore only used for program execution. The Kaiser will have around 50-70MB RAM free after booting depending on your start-up apps, which is WAY enough not to have to worry about it.

Rudegar said:
as of wm5 storage is rom
and application memory is ram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, that's what I thought. So, then I'm right in that the thing to do is to maximize RAM by moving resident applications into the ROM to free up RAM, yes?

You can't do that. Read my post above for more detail, might have missed it as we posted pretty much simultaneously.

kilrah said:
The Kaiser will have around 50-70MB RAM free after booting depending on your start-up apps, which is WAY enough not to have to worry about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then if I'm reading you right, your feeling seems to suggest that investing a lot of effort in cooking my own ROM isn't necessary; that if I get a 'minimalistic' cooked ROM and install my own applications, it's effectively the same thing? IOW, a smaller footprint ROM will increase room for storage of programs and documents by eliminating some OEM stuff that's perhaps unnecessary, yes?
I guess the things that I could do without are these below:
- Getting Started (A bit late for this now!)
- Windows Live (Do you really need this?)
- Voice Speed Dial (MS Voice Command instead?)
- File Explorer & Zip (Both these are handled by Virtual Explorer)
- Windows Update (If it worked, would we be here?)
However as I don't know how big these things are, I may find that it's a lot of extra effort for not a lot of gain.
Your thoughts?

Exact. Everything you install will end in Flash memory, whether it's cooked in the ROM or installed later. The only difference is that if cooked it will be in the write-protected part and will still be there when you hard reset, unlike the apps you install later.

Here are some numbers, if you're interested.. This is going from a hard reset Tilt stock rom (Although I soft-reset before it installed AT&Ts crap so these numbers are BETTER than the typical stock AT&T Tilt) vs ROMeOS v4.1.
Code:
AT&T Stock ROM (hard reset, no AT&T customization)
Storage: 124.91 Program: 101.38
In Use : 10.17 In use : 27.20
Free : 114.74 Free : 74.20
ROMeOS 4.1
Storage: 150.59 Program: 85.32
In use : 3.90 In Use : 29.00
Free : 146.70 Free : 56.32
As for the program ram being down 20M, I think this is because the ROMeOS ROM has dynamic page pool so it adjusts itself as necessary, but I'm not sure. I've personally never had an issue with getting low on program ram. It's certainly nice having 30M more of storage space (not to mention the whole thing being snappier and the interface responds quicker, but enough advertisement for the ROM )

kilrah said:
Exact. Everything you install will end in Flash memory, whether it's cooked in the ROM or installed later. The only difference is that if cooked it will be in the write-protected part and will still be there when you hard reset, unlike the apps you install later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A completely unnecessary concern, when you have SPB backup.
I've got my head around this now. Thanks so much, you've been very helpful and I appreciate your effort.

khaytsus said:
As for the program ram being down 20M, I think this is because the ROMeOS ROM has dynamic page pool so it adjusts itself as necessary, but I'm not sure... It's certainly nice having 30M more of storage space (not to mention the whole thing being snappier and the interface responds quicker, but enough advertisement for the ROM )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I understand there is an advantage to a 'cooked' ROM. Does anyone know offhand if the HTC OEM 6.1 ROM has some of the performance 'tweaks' you suggest above, or should I just back up and experiment?
What I'm getting at is that if reflashing is only going to deliver a nominal performance benefit over the HTC ROM, it's not really worth the effort for me.

BillTheCat said:
What I'm getting at is that if reflashing is only going to deliver a nominal performance benefit over the HTC ROM, it's not really worth the effort for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes and no. Remember, It also adds more storage for you too! This might not be as important to you as it is to me though. The only application i prefer to be installed to my SD card is TomTom, and thats because all of the maps have to be there anyway. I use several MicroSD cards Daily ( have 3 4gb cards ) ( one for videos, one for tomtom, and one for photos/backup cabs/ect ). Being able to have enough ROM open for me to install all of my apps is important to me. Its not just a speed factor, but ive actually run out of ROM space before..... not a fun thing to hunt down whats taking up all your space. Cooked ROMS open up more space by removing all that Garbage from manufacturers ( We call it Bloatware) and makes more room for my stuff to go
Also, I dont think any OEM HTC ROMS have Kaisertweek or any other registry modifications. Granted, you could just download a registry editor and a tweek program, having the goodies already there and the junk removed makes for a faster / easier start if you flash as much as some of us do lol.
Just my opinion.

Why is there so few RAM available??

Hey guys,
I just switched from a Polaris to my Kaiser a few days ago, because of the keyboard.
I love my Kaiser, but there is one thing I'm wondering about.
Why is there so few RAM in the Kaiser?
On my Polaris I had 60+ MB free (with an 8MB Touchcube loaded), up to 68.
On the Kaiser I have max. 43-45 free with nothing (I know of) running in the background....
How is that?
Stefan
edit: It's the same situation on different ROMs I tested and it was the same situation on different Polaris ROMs, too. They were all fully loaded, no light ROMs etc.

I think most ROM chefs have gone to either "larger" page pools, or dynamic page pools. And depending on the page pool size, you will see less available RAM.

Would you like to "SEE" a lot of free ram but run yr machine slow because of no caching/paging? Or you want to "FEEL" a lot smoother user experience because we spend some ram for cache/pagepool?
With 128mb Qvga machine like Kaiser, I don't even dare to look at the memory meter since I NEVER run into not enough ram issue even I abuse it w/ lots of concurrent apps (Iguidance 4 + TomTom 7 + A2DP w/ Coreplayer + lots of todays plugins).
I rather concern about too many unnecessary background service/process since WM has a physical limit of 32 processes

45MB free is nothing to worry about, I've never really managed to use more than 20MB with more than 10 apps running.
And devices like the Hermes were doing fine with less than 20MB free after a clean boot.

very nice way expressing/explaining
so thats call for button X application (plug in)
jackleung said:
Would you like to "SEE" a lot of free ram but run yr machine slow because of no caching/paging? Or you want to "FEEL" a lot smoother user experience because we spend some ram for cache/pagepool?
With 128mb Qvga machine like Kaiser, I don't even dare to look at the memory meter since I NEVER run into not enough ram issue even I abuse it w/ lots of concurrent apps (Iguidance 4 + TomTom 7 + A2DP w/ Coreplayer + lots of todays plugins).
I rather concern about too many unnecessary background service/process since WM has a physical limit of 32 processes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

The ROMs I used on the Polaris had a 18MB PP...
Laurentius' V10 also has 18MB...
And I also can't seem to fill the RAM, but I'm a little confused...

I also go pretty high on my page pools (24 mb). However, you can request a ROM of your liking with the page pool you want (look at my sig) .

kareem9nba said:
I also go pretty high on my page pools (24 mb). However, you can request a ROM of your liking with the page pool you want (look at my sig) .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thx, but as I said, I'm alright with my RAM.
I'm only curious why a ROM which is (supposed to be) very similar to a Polaris one according to the settings (where the Polaris ROM actually had the TouchCube with 8MB loaded) has 15-20MB less RAM available... what the hell is running in the background on the Kaiser that takes that much memory?
Oh, and btw, all the screenshots for the Kaiser I saw (even from light ROMs), don't have much more than 50MB free, so how can a light Polaris ROM have 70MB free??!!
Stefan
P.S: I don't mean to annoy anyone, but I just can't help it...
I wanna know what takes my RAM away...

Sayuuk said:
Oh, and btw, all the screenshots for the Kaiser I saw (even from light ROMs), don't have much more than 50MB free
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There, just for you. 47.3MB with no programs running but no reboot for more than one week, and 63.1MB after reboot. The screenshot program is taking 1MB in both cases, and I have a couple of small programs starting automatically on boot.
Any chance you'd be using WM6 on one and WM6.1 on the other?

Sayuuk said:
what the hell is running in the background on the Kaiser that takes that much memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why don't you use Memmaid and take a look?

jackleung said:
Why don't you use Memmaid and take a look?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can't find anything, that's why I'm asking ;-)
@kilrah: interesting, I never saw that much free RAM on a Kaiser.
However, on my Polaris I had a ROM (as previously mentioned) that was fully loaded, all the stuff I have on my Kaiser + the Cube and I still had about 20MB more free RAM than I have on my Kaiser without a Cube...
The only Hardware-based difference on the Kaiser is the keyboard... but that can't have anything to di with it, can it?
Stefan

I was also always curious as to why, if they can make 32gb micro sd cards, can't they simply put that much memory into the Kaiser to begin with?

Two Things
A) They don't have 32Gb MicroSD cards yet.
B) Lets say they Did. Leaving the Card Slot Blank costs nothing. Filling it with a Card costs money. Larger Profit Margin for HTC. They win.

And some more:
D) Most people don't give a damn about having 16/32GB in their phone, and would certainly be pissed off if they had to pay more for something they didn't need. Those will just buy a 1GB card and be fine with it.
E) That would open the door to iphone-like ripoff, with $100-200 difference between the 8GB and 16GB models... when we know that a 8GB memory card costs around $20 nowadays, so much more like $5 to add it inside the phone for the manufacturer. But as we all know, internal memory always costs more than cards....
F) Bit unrelated, but in my country electronic devices are subject to a copyright-style tax based on the amount of internal memory. But memory cards aren't taxed. Choose the best option

And backup sizes increase too!
After watching my free device memory decline and backup sizes go up every day, I found that PIE (Pocket Internet Explorer) and Opera were taking a more than decent amount of memory for their caches.
Clearing PIE and Opera's cache freed over 30M of device memory for me!
While Opera gives a setting for cache size, PIE has only a registry setting:
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings\5.0\Cache\Content\CacheLimit
It's set to 42680 in my Tilt. While I can change the registry value, the change won't survive a soft reset.
My solution is to regularly clear the browser caches and check the device for temp files. It's made a huge difference for me (from 11M free to 61M free)

gavink said:
After watching my free device memory decline and backup sizes go up every day, I found that PIE (Pocket Internet Explorer) and Opera were taking a more than decent amount of memory for their caches.
Clearing PIE and Opera's cache freed over 30M of device memory for me!
While Opera gives a setting for cache size, PIE has only a registry setting:
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings\5.0\Cache\Content\CacheLimit
It's set to 42680 in my Tilt. While I can change the registry value, the change won't survive a soft reset.
My solution is to regularly clear the browser caches and check the device for temp files. It's made a huge difference for me (from 11M free to 61M free)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man, we are talking about RAM (program memory) and you are talking about ROM (storage memory).
I always use memmaid to clean up before backup to make sure no junks are being backup. In fact, most backup software allow you to choose what directory to or not to backup.

jackleung said:
Man, we are talking about RAM (program memory) and you are talking about ROM (storage memory).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see that in the previous posts. I do understand the difference between program and storage memory. RAM is where everything but the base system is stored... right? ROM (read only memory) isn't used for a dynamic cache... right?

gavink said:
I don't see that in the previous posts. I do understand the difference between program and storage memory. RAM is where everything but the base system is stored... right? ROM (read only memory) isn't used for a dynamic cache... right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was back on '03... the terms stayed the same but since WM5 the technology changed
It's like on your PC.
RAM is the storage the programs actually run in, ROM is the ... rest
If you look at the Memory Page in the settings. ROM ("Storage") is what you're talking about and RAM ("Program") is what the rest of us is talking about...
Stefan

Sayuuk said:
That was back on '03... the terms stayed the same but since WM5 the technology changed
It's like on your PC.
RAM is the storage the programs actually run in, ROM is the ... rest
If you look at the Memory Page in the settings. ROM ("Storage") is what you're talking about and RAM ("Program") is what the rest of us is talking about...
Stefan
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sooo... you're saying that my PIE and Opera caches are both in my Tilt's ROM? Wow... somehow I fell waaaay behind the times!

gavink said:
Sooo... you're saying that my PIE and Opera caches are both in my Tilt's ROM? Wow... somehow I fell waaaay behind the times!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not actually ROM anymore, that's what I meant and I guess that's why you're confused.
I think you understand what RAM is. Now what we mean when we say ROM is just the rest of the internal storage that is NOT the RAM.
If you read the specs of HTC phones you always see 128MB RAM and 256MB ROM. ROM in this case is just a name that's in use cuz it's always been used, though it's not ReadOnlyMemory nowadays.
Stefan

do I have less memory than the specs on my diamond!

hi,
I bought the Indian 2.75G version of the htc touch diamond without the extra in the front.
I checked the task manager memory and this is what it looks like:
http://gidisrael.googlepages.com/myDiamondmem.jpg
Is that correct?
If I'm not mistaken program memory is supposed to be 192MB and Rom:256MB??
Thanks so much

Google is your friend.
As far as I know, 64Mb is reserved for the GPU (+ maybe other phone functions). Here for more.

I did do some searching, but I guess I would'nt have found an article with the title "64MB eaten by aliens".
Anyway, thanks so much. I'm a little confused about the ROM now, what about the 256 MB ROM, where did it dissappear and why does it say I have 83.44 MB storage memory.
After some searching I found this on an archived post here:
128Mb of RAM speaks for itself. Of the 256Mb of flash however, 128Mb contains the operating system, the other 128Mb are available to the end user to install programs and add documents. When flashing any given device, the available flashrom is first filled up with the OS, after which a second amount is allocated to the extended rom area, and finally the rest is made available to the end user.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this correct?
Thanks.

I did a bit of research and that quote seems quite correct as to what is stored in the flash ROM:
- bootloader
- OS
- extended ROM area (themes, customizations and apps that install immediately after a hard-reset)
- (lastly) the user-available portion.
Your 83Mb is similar to my free storage mem.
I suppose getting a ROM with all the unnecessary apps removed is your best bet of increasing your program storage size. Also, I think chefs move some apps into the extended flashROM area, making more space available to program storage.

H3x said:
Google is your friend.
As far as I know, 64Mb is reserved for the GPU (+ maybe other phone functions). Here for more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I've read in other threads, both the Diamond and the Pro lacks graphics drivers for hardware processed rendering so what's the use of having a GPU then?

everyone would like to know
mostly to lure people in with a spec that doesnt live up to itself.