Related
Does anyone know if these are properly implemented through the APIs? I am aware that the HTC home screen supposedly uses the 3D chip, but nowhere says how.
If it is properly implemented it would be very interesting for developers and gamers alike.
Judging by peoples experiences with DirectDraw at least that API is not accelerated. OpenGL ES is though and Direct3D is probably mapped to Open GL ES calls and would also be accelerated (with some form of, probably slight, performance penalty).
There are two threads in this subforum that are asking for benchmark results from the Diamond but so far none of the current owners seem interested in providing anything.
ill do a benchmark if its easy to do, what program do i use?
jkr284 said:
ill do a benchmark if its easy to do, what program do i use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/benchmark/??en
http://int13.net/gxmark.htm
http://classic.pocketgear.com/software_detail.asp?id=8287
As far as easy goes you just run the application basically.
Thanks
Ive been trying to run a full spb test on the diamond at default settings and on battery power. It didnt like the word test (seemed to stick at about 90% of opening the alice word doc then looped forever!) and also didnt like the pocket internet explorer test (well it opened opera browser for the test, and didnt like it for some reason!), just running it now with buit in application tests disabled.
Ok First Heres the SPB Benchmark results with "Built in Applications Test" Disabled:
- <benchmark-results>
- <info>
<platform-name>HTC Touch Diamond P3700</platform-name>
<device-name>HTC Diamond</device-name>
<start-date>06.05.2008</start-date>
</info>
- <main-tests>
<fs-largefilewrite>566.700000</fs-largefilewrite>
<fs-largefileread>107.900000</fs-largefileread>
<fs-largefilecopy>679.800000</fs-largefilecopy>
<fs-manyfileswrite>5897.500000</fs-manyfileswrite>
<fs-manyfilesread>429.300000</fs-manyfilesread>
<fs-manyfilescopy>4549.900000</fs-manyfilescopy>
<fs-dirlisting>1334.200000</fs-dirlisting>
<fs-db>756.900000</fs-db>
<grf-ddb>6.670000</grf-ddb>
<grf-dib>25.095000</grf-dib>
<grf-gapi>5.390000</grf-gapi>
<misc-zip>2660.000000</misc-zip>
<misc-jpeg>417.600000</misc-jpeg>
<misc-arkaball>8.140500</misc-arkaball>
<misc-mflops>3578.800000</misc-mflops>
<misc-mops>1001.700000</misc-mops>
<misc-mwips>7229.000000</misc-mwips>
<misc-memcpy>8.449000</misc-memcpy>
</main-tests>
</benchmark-results>
GXMark produced a white screen! i had to reset the device! No Idea whats up there!
Pocket Pc Mark wouldnt do a run on the graphics test, it got to 6/8 test and then locked, had to reset again, sorry!
Thanks for your efforts!
The SPB results are actually very poor unfortunately. Almost too poor, did you have lots of stuff running in the background or anything like that?
Apart from the pure CPU tests (including decompressing a JPEG and a ZIP file which both are very CPU bound as well) both filesystem operations and graphics operations are a lot lower (or at best equal in some cases) to what you would see on a Kaiser for an example..
I think at least we can say with certainty that the GAPI and GDI/DDI drivers are not any better than on the Kaiser, very minor boost due to faster memory and CPU sped can possibly be achieved but that's nothing compared to real hardware acceleration.
I really do hope that the next version of Windows Mobile and the included APIs andate some sort of all around graphics acceleration Video hardware acceleration seems to much like a tack on in current WM and the Diamond seems to be the ultimate proof of that.
the only things running are the default progs in the background like touchflo etc. something has been improved as ackys breakout and bejeweled 2 run beautifully in vga aswell, they ran like **** on my touch cruise (slowdown and stutters) in reality this phone ****s all over the cruise performance wise in games and general use.
One thing that was better on the cruise is the 3g reception which i could get inside my house but not with the diamond.
Tomtom6 displays real nice in vga also but takes a longer time plotting routes, much longer!
Try a psx emulator and see if it runs :]
"I really do hope that the next version of Windows Mobile and the included APIs andate some sort of all around graphics acceleration Video hardware acceleration seems to much like a tack on in current WM and the Diamond seems to be the ultimate proof of that."
it would still require drivers even if ms provided them like in normal windows
doubt ms would pay the coins htc dident
Can anyone with a Diamond please run the Futuremark benchmark as it does an open gl test as well as 2d and more, thanks
http://www.futuremark.com/download/spmarkjavajsr184/
I downloaded the suite (clicked all the tests)
Ran it and heres what i got:
http://service.futuremark.com/orbmobile/projectdetails_spmarkjavaweb.jsp?projectId=23157&projectType=20
Looks like it didnt want to do the 3d test......
This is discouraging. Most of the tests don't run, and those that run give really low results? Sounds familiar. I really don't want this to be yet another great hardware with lackluster software support...
Rudegar said:
it would still require drivers even if ms provided them like in normal windows
doubt ms would pay the coins htc dident
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes of course it would need drivers
but current Windows Mobile seems to be built with the assumption that there will be no specialized graphics hardware (so everything is build to run in software)
desktop windows is built on the assumption that there will be hardware acceleratio for 3D, video playback and even the GUI, I'm hoping windows mobile 7 sports a similiar approach, thus "forcing" manufacturers who want to ship even baseline WM devices to support their hardware with graphics drivers
also something with the underlying framework in windows mobile seems off when it comes to hw accelerated graphics, as I mentioned earlier it feels like a tack on that wasn't planned in the first place
thus even when we have devices with hardware and drivers it still not universally applicable (check the diamond for a perfect example, it has some level of hardware acceleration but it's not general and system wide for whatever reason)
so what I am hoping for is a standardized, general system wide assumption that future WinMo will have graphics hardware just the same as any PC today has some level of hardware acceleration (in effect making it close to impossible for companies like HTC to ship devices with hardware but without drivers)
jkr284 said:
I downloaded the suite (clicked all the tests)
Ran it and heres what i got:
http://service.futuremark.com/orbmo...arkjavaweb.jsp?projectId=23157&projectType=20
Looks like it didnt want to do the 3d test......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for running the test
Radeon123 said:
Thanks for running the test
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Pleasure!
To everyone worrying about gaming and movie performance i wouldnt worry at all,
The latest coreplayer has no lag in high quality films
Ive tried loads of astraware native vga games and they run flawlessly, with soe tweaking as shown on other threads the interface is now ery quick. I wouldnt bother stressing yourselves over the performance as its stellar for the size of the device.
jkr284 said:
My Pleasure!
To everyone worrying about gaming and movie performance i wouldnt worry at all,
The latest coreplayer has no lag in high quality films
Ive tried loads of astraware native vga games and they run flawlessly, with soe tweaking as shown on other threads the interface is now ery quick. I wouldnt bother stressing yourselves over the performance as its stellar for the size of the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
640x480 movies? (Coreplayer played those fine up until the latest Kaiser ROM)
3D games or regular 2d ones? (basically all astraware games run just fine on my tytn ii for an example)
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, it just seems as if the Diamond is basically missing the performance some of us thought it to have. (Though that's not to say that the performance is poor)
UPDATE ON CALL OF DUTY: Works absolutely awesome, NOT using minimal settings, i was able to play pretty well. NOTE: Tytn2 and Touch Cruise was NOT able to play due to heavy lag even with minimal settings. Game was perfectly fine, with except with just a small little, not lag, but looks like the rendering was a bit slow as i looked around, when i used hardkeys and stylus at the same time. NOTE: ALL pdas lag in gaming when using hardkeys and joystick at the same time. However, it was minimal, and call of duty was enjoyable to say the least. SO yes, it DOES have graphic accelerators. Proper benchmarks will be done when i have proper time.
UPDATE. SPB benchmark seems to hang. cant run it. hangs at testing word document.
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/711698
Baronic said:
UPDATE ON CALL OF DUTY: Works absolutely awesome, NOT using minimal settings, i was able to play pretty well. NOTE: Tytn2 and Touch Cruise was NOT able to play due to heavy lag even with minimal settings. Game was perfectly fine, with except with just a small little, not lag, but looks like the rendering was a bit slow as i looked around, when i used hardkeys and stylus at the same time. NOTE: ALL pdas lag in gaming when using hardkeys and joystick at the same time. However, it was minimal, and call of duty was enjoyable to say the least. SO yes, it DOES have graphic accelerators. Proper benchmarks will be done when i have proper time.
UPDATE. SPB benchmark seems to hang. cant run it. hangs at testing word document.
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/711698
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would love to see a youtube video of COD on the diamond. Can you please post. I would really appreciate it.
And do you flash roms? if so you probably already know that some of your games no longer work, im talking about games that use Direct Draw. Quake, Quake 2, Duke Nukem. I havn't stuck with one of these roms long enough to try out any other games, so those 3 are the only ones I can confirm. Depending on if you have error reporting turned on, here is what happens when you try to launch one of these games;
you tap the .exe, it will start to load up and appear to be working, but as soon as any graphics are produced it closes. It may bring up the error report screen and you can send this report to microsoft. If you have this disabled then of corse there is no error report.
It seems that the wm6.1 roms and Diamond based roms out there dont support direct draw.
Currently I'm running Dutty's 4/29 rom and it's the most stable, it supports Direct draw. It's a WM6.1 Rom, however it was released BEFORE the official WM6.1 was released, this may have something to do with it.
my main concern is people aren't aware of this issue, and recently the OpenGL drivers are being developed and ran on the Kaiser. OpenGL opens a whole new door for us gamers! (hopefully). However when this OpenGL roms are available to us, and don't support DirectDraw, that just CLOSES half of those doors .
What's the point of an OpenGL rom if that same rom doesnt support DirectDraw?
Roms not support direct draw: (please add on to this list)
ROMeOSv2.3
[24 June] HyperDragon III WM6.1 WWE ROM 19588 - 19591 (Diamond ROM)
[Jun 07] Dutty's Diamond V1 Build 19588
[June 25] L26_KaiserDiamond_V9 (and other L_26 roms)
[June 18] Death V4 Business edition
WM6.1 ATT 214 ROM _ Ryncppr Version V5 _ DIAMOND APPEAL
I have not been able to test EVERY rom out there, and im sure the rest of you guys can help me add on to this list. but it seems a good number of new roms dont support it.
And yes I've noticed it too. Doesn't the GBA emulators like Pocketgba and Snes emulators use DirectDraw too? It would help a lot if it were fixed. Even with the OpenGL drivers I doubt we would still be able to play these emulators at full speed.
I can confirm games like Quake and Duke not running on my 6.1 roms. I'm currently using the one in my sig so that can be added to the list. I have also tried Duttys Diamond rom, and a few L26 roms and can confirm they didn't work on there either. Warcraft II does work however, and all my emulators play just fine.
I can play Doom, PocketNestorPlus, and PocketSNES just fine. Using the configuration listed in my sig. Dunno if that helps or not...
eknutson said:
I can play Doom, PocketNestorPlus, and PocketSNES just fine. Using the configuration listed in my sig. Dunno if that helps or not...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
doom PocketNesterPlus, and PocketSNES worked for me as well, I'm not sure what they use for graphics.
Hey mikeeey, have you read my reply here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2347820&postcount=642
"im talking about games that use Direct Draw. Quake, Quake 2, Duke Nukem."
non of those games in their normal form use directdraw at all
they run on very old wm2000 devices too
and even in their dos versions the dident use any form of hardware acceleration
well later on they came in opengl versions but never dx
So the ddraw.dll built into all of those ROMS are broken?
Have you tried writing a test ddraw app to isolate if ddraw.dll is broken, or the way it's being used is bad?
Rudegar said:
"im talking about games that use Direct Draw. Quake, Quake 2, Duke Nukem."
non of those games in their normal form use directdraw at all
they run on very old wm2000 devices too
and even in their dos versions the dident use any form of hardware acceleration
well later on they came in opengl versions but never dx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
then what in the new roms are making these games not work?
sakajati said:
Hey mikeeey, have you read my reply here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2347820&postcount=642
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[Engine Setup]
UsingGapi = 0
yes this does switch it so it uses Gapi, but I had Gapi turned off for a reason, the reason being it crashed more. For example while playng duke, on the first level, if you look at the pool table it crashes for some reason, same with the orange lighting at the end of the level.
mikeeey said:
[Engine Setup]
UsingGapi = 0
yes this does switch it so it uses Gapi, but I had Gapi turned off for a reason, the reason being it crashed more. For example while playng duke, on the first level, if you look at the pool table it crashes for some reason, same with the orange lighting at the end of the level.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So using this setting the game will load, but it basically renders the game unplayable?
Pocket nes For Nintendo perfection plays most nes games.
Pico Drive for Sega Genesis. Plays them well with and without sound. some games better than others
Burner for Neo-Geo/cps1/cps2 games. I like this one.. choppy with sound, Great with out. Due to the my tilt being underpowered. its choppy with sound for now.
PocketSnes for Snes games. it works. It really works.. play with the settings to see what fits you. Due to the underpowered tilt.
I think i hit the best ones for the systems i listed above...i am sure this topic has been brought up in this forum before.. Please refer the search button on your top menu bar. It is located three buttons in from you light side.. Please feel free to Use this anytime.
i keep changing Roms because of this problem... i know that. If i can get my games running full speed on my wizard. IT really sucks because i know this **** is capable with so much more.... I mean there was a direct draw type program that was floating around. Its just a project tho....
all i know
"then what in the new roms are making these games not work?"
sounds like it i can still play them using wm6.1 on my himalaya but then it's not a full 6.1 i guess some of the core is prob of later date
also the ATI IMAGEON 3200 dont do 3d acceleration only a bit of 2d and video
So im just wondering why developers havn't found a way to not use the wm6.1 core, but still use the wm6.1 Diamond drivers and such..
I talked to dutty about the issue.
he says it's the new drivers that HTC released in the new wm6.1, it's some weird problem with landscape cleartype. I will flash a new rom and disable landscape cleartype and see if it helps.
it just seems slowly we have to disable more and more to get things worked (ex. A-GPS, sometimes HTC Home, now cleartype)
atleast we know the problem now!
mikeeey have you seen this yet? Quake 3 on the Diamond! Running very very slow but hey, it runs!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=405722
ahhh! no!!!
then that means with the OpenGL drivers for the Kaiser it may run at 2fps.
on my kaiser Quake 3 already runs between 1-3fps. mainly around 2fps.
see this is one of the main reasons im sticking to the most updated WM6 version until the updated and bug fixed 6.1 roms come ou for att or tmobile...once these directdraw and opengl / gps problems are fixed I don't see the need too upgrade 2 6.1 and have HALF my applications not work anymore when ALL of them work right now.
mikeeey said:
So im just wondering why developers havn't found a way to not use the wm6.1 core, but still use the wm6.1 Diamond drivers and such..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what about shoguns d3d driver cab i am using it on duttys hybrid 19716 6.1 rom and i can play pocketgba with sound and some of the games are very playable
Hi, I think that almost everyone want to play some game on his phone. So, I will test some of them, and post here results, and problems. Most of all, I test demos or freeware games, so actually full game results may by different. I hope this will be helpfull for you.
ofcourse it will be helpfull
thx
So, I prepared some games to test, I will test them later becouse I am still serching info about two PDAMill games. These games are Snails Reloaded (just QVGA) and Anthelion 2 (QVGA and VGA version). For some reason, these games runs much slower on Diamond than on brother´s Asus P535 when its CPU is set to 200MHz! Yes, 200MHz outperform in these games our 528MHZ one. I assume that this is due to incompatibility with WM 6.1. But it is strange. On PDA Mill site, they say that WM 6 is supported. Maybe WM 6.1 or combination of WM 6.1 + VGA is the problem. I dont know. Yes, you can run these games, but at speed of snail. Firts I thought that maybe transform from QVGA to VGA is the problem, but Anthelion 2 has VGA version too, and this VGA version was as laggy as QVGA version. If you think that Anthleion is 3D game, and Diamond maybe just cannot handle 3D, it is wrong. Even menu in this game is stupidly laggy, concretelly transtions in menu. And Snails Reloaded act just like Anthelion 2, and they are just 2D game. But I forgott that VS Bench on our devices is very good 2500+ points, that this isnt due to slow Diamond CPU. (VS Bench of Asus P535 is in 520 MHz mode 2300 points and on 200 MHz mode only about 1000 and it still outperform Dimand) .
So, for now I can say that you can play these games, but prepare yourself for laggy game experience.
Next game I tried is Duke Nukem 3D - this is even worst - becouse you can not even run it. After loading, screen goes black, and you must restart it. This is bad news, becouse I liked Duke Nukem 3D on PC, and I played it a lot on my previous WM 5 phone. This game doesent like VGA or WM 6.1.
And for now last one: Call Of Duty mobile. This nice 3D Game runs great, you will get even better framerate than previously mentioned Asus P535 in 520 MHz mode. Still, this game is not smooth, but definattely playable. First game which runs on Diamond slightly better than on P535 (520MHZ adjustable CPU).
More games speed and copatibility info will be here soon.
Nice work keep it up , may want to put them in a list format , with links to the games as well
For ref Age of Empires Gold Edition, Works fine on the Diamond
One question: Where can I buy a licence key to have a full verion of Age of Empires Gold Edition?
Fred
Yes, I know. For now, I will add games just as new replys, but I will make some list in future, when more games will be tested. I can add links, if you want, but remember that most apps I am testing are demo versions, but some freeware will be there too.
Has anyone tried bejeweled 2 yet? I don't wanna install mines until my screen protector arrives!!
best game ever bejeweled 2
I Have Working:
My Little Thank - Just some problems to acess the register screen but works
Solitaire City - Works Fine
SkyForce Rel. - Does not work
Skyforce - Does not work
Bejeweled 2 - Works
Rocket mania - Works
Tradewinds 2 - Works
Insane Aquaium Deluxe - Works
Dielmann said:
One question: Where can I buy a licence key to have a full verion of Age of Empires Gold Edition?
Fred
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IIRC, you cna't - it's long been abandoned.
Siruss said:
SkyForce Rel. - Does not work
Skyforce - Does not work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you contact the developer? It's working just greta on all my other VGA devices, incl. WM6.1 ones - that is, it must be incompatible with the Qualcomm chipset.
Double post - bad connection - sorry
Pocket Heroes - works great
Leomnade Inc.- works but can't get pass the beginning menu
Tombraider - seems to work, as I can't get pass the menu because of missing hardware buttons
Lemmings 1.0 - the screen is black but I can hear the music
Asphalt 3d - runs on 1/5 of the screen
Worms - work great but luck of hw buttons (can't shot, jump and so one)
Houseofdead 3d - works but slow
Poket Quake - shows menu but the game is blank window
Transport Tycoon - stucks on loading screen
koven said:
Asphalt 3d - runs on 1/5 of the screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is that 3D_Asphalt_3.jar ? under Jblend v3.2.8 20061016c, it ran full screen on VGA; see the compatibility chart in my MIDlet Bible.
no it's PPC game (*.cab)
Hi Pokvitek, May be the reason for not working / poorly working games on Diamond compared to other (older) VGA devices is that the Games are developed for Open GL processing whereas our Diamond has seperate Qtc processing (the 3D accelerator chip)...
Can anyone put more light on this??
Anyone use or know of a good NES emulator. I would kill to have mario, master blaster, etc on my diamond.
thanks
If anyone would like to have an really good Lemmings Port, look here:
CAB: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~zeppenfe/files/PocketLemmings.cab
If problems occured with moved grafics or similar, then exchange this .EXE: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~zeppenfe/files/LemmingsCE.exe
YouTube Movie: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=11_bG6--h6U
Level AddOns ZIP: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~zeppenfe/files/LemPack_Custom.zip
Thats the first Port ive seen, that leans on the original game, with full levels from "Lemmings" and "Oh No More Lemmings". All you really need, is the "main.dat" file from your (hopefully ) original Lemmings...
I dont know, I personally think that Open GL is not the issue. Anyway, some games dont work due to WM 6.1, some due to VGA, and some due to problem that nobody knows. Qualcomm chipset has ARM 11 operation CPU, so this should not be problem. About Skyforce, I have not a solution, but an idea. I found something interesting. We all know spb benchmark, and with new ROM Diamond has in graphics about 1600 points. This bench can not use Hardware acceleration, so this must be result of just 528 MHz Main CPU. Now, point is that i thought that Diamond grapics index is low due to WM 6.1, but I found other phones running WM 6.1, and they had graphics index about 3000, with 400MHZ CPU. So, I was sad, becous it seemed that Diamond is just piece of crap. THEN I found something interesting, graphic index of IPaQ 214 - WM 6.1 VGA device, with 624 MHz Marvell Monahan 310 CPU. His grphic index was about 1600 too. So, device of this strenght, like IpaQ 214 definnetelly is, should outperform Diamond. So, I guess, that there is something. I dont know what, but I am sure that is.
koven said:
Pocket Heroes - works great
Leomnade Inc.- works but can't get pass the beginning menu
Tombraider - seems to work, as I can't get pass the menu because of missing hardware buttons
Lemmings 1.0 - the screen is black but I can hear the music
Asphalt 3d - runs on 1/5 of the screen
Worms - work great but luck of hw buttons (can't shot, jump and so one)
Houseofdead 3d - works but slow
Poket Quake - shows menu but the game is blank window
Transport Tycoon - stucks on loading screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WORMS: there is a patch available to assign the sound up and sound down buttons to jump and backflip. then evrything works
NES emulators do not work properly because the lack of hardware buttons. the onscreen buttons do not work very well.
hi, it is possible run d3d ? there was released on htc kaiser. But shift has small memory and i dont know how much 3d graphic needs. Maybe for tests it will by good to see
d3d work on the shift. Speed is extremly slow as it is software emulation. You can try the kaiser pack on the shift if you want. My first rom (GPS only) has d3d enabled.
I sell my shift before christmas, but i cant find good device with big dislay and good keyboard so i cant try it, But the question is why is so slow? does it due to the ram? Chipset is same.
thaihugo said:
d3d work on the shift. Speed is extremly slow as it is software emulation. You can try the kaiser pack on the shift if you want. My first rom (GPS only) has d3d enabled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HI THAI
i remeber your first rom with d3d. indeed the d3dm software is not good for such a device . the 3d navigation with garmin xt and other java sofware was very laggy. i tried to patch the samsung omnia d3d software but their was to many dependencies in the registeries and i did not sucess. i thaugt to implement the htc class action drivers with the 6.1 kernel from udk (the hybrid one ... alpha 1) , but i know it is useless with the actual wince limitation of the shift. for now gps navigation should be used with th x86 motherboard. also gaming should be done with vista as well, with a good usb or bloothooth pad
hi, i saw videos on youtube like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBaJ9rsMGI0
and i think, that there is good 3d potencial. I dont need 3d gaming on shift, but i mean improve scrooling a some graphic on wm side
alocate memomory
does anyone know, how much memory is alocate for d3d graphic on tytn 2? How much is optimal for qvga, for vga? Shift has small memory, i think it is posible ma 16mb for 3d, but the less than 10mb is too little to run other programs
wm6.5 is relatively new, so I haven't seen too many threads covering 3D drivers on wm6.5. Although it's really not a huge deal to me, (2D acceleration still works fine), I just noticed that Call of Duty 2 Accelerated, GLbenchmark, and some other 3d benchmark apps no longer run.
Again, there really aren't any day-to-day apps that I use that require 3D acceleration, but it would be nice to figure out why it isn't working.
Has anyone gotten COD2 working with acceleration?
mikeeey said:
wm6.5 is relatively new, so I haven't seen too many threads covering 3D drivers on wm6.5. Although it's really not a huge deal to me, (2D acceleration still works fine), I just noticed that Call of Duty 2 Accelerated, GLbenchmark, and some other 3d benchmark apps no longer run.
Again, there really aren't any day-to-day apps that I use that require 3D acceleration, but it would be nice to figure out why it isn't working.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it does work i got cod2,xtract,quake3 plus manila3d all working perfectly accelerated on my rom 6.5 build 23009