Database Develop

Direct3D Mobile / OpenGL ES?

Does anyone know if these are properly implemented through the APIs? I am aware that the HTC home screen supposedly uses the 3D chip, but nowhere says how.
If it is properly implemented it would be very interesting for developers and gamers alike.

Judging by peoples experiences with DirectDraw at least that API is not accelerated. OpenGL ES is though and Direct3D is probably mapped to Open GL ES calls and would also be accelerated (with some form of, probably slight, performance penalty).
There are two threads in this subforum that are asking for benchmark results from the Diamond but so far none of the current owners seem interested in providing anything.

ill do a benchmark if its easy to do, what program do i use?

jkr284 said:
ill do a benchmark if its easy to do, what program do i use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/benchmark/??en
http://int13.net/gxmark.htm
http://classic.pocketgear.com/software_detail.asp?id=8287
As far as easy goes you just run the application basically.

Thanks
Ive been trying to run a full spb test on the diamond at default settings and on battery power. It didnt like the word test (seemed to stick at about 90% of opening the alice word doc then looped forever!) and also didnt like the pocket internet explorer test (well it opened opera browser for the test, and didnt like it for some reason!), just running it now with buit in application tests disabled.

Ok First Heres the SPB Benchmark results with "Built in Applications Test" Disabled:
- <benchmark-results>
- <info>
<platform-name>HTC Touch Diamond P3700</platform-name>
<device-name>HTC Diamond</device-name>
<start-date>06.05.2008</start-date>
</info>
- <main-tests>
<fs-largefilewrite>566.700000</fs-largefilewrite>
<fs-largefileread>107.900000</fs-largefileread>
<fs-largefilecopy>679.800000</fs-largefilecopy>
<fs-manyfileswrite>5897.500000</fs-manyfileswrite>
<fs-manyfilesread>429.300000</fs-manyfilesread>
<fs-manyfilescopy>4549.900000</fs-manyfilescopy>
<fs-dirlisting>1334.200000</fs-dirlisting>
<fs-db>756.900000</fs-db>
<grf-ddb>6.670000</grf-ddb>
<grf-dib>25.095000</grf-dib>
<grf-gapi>5.390000</grf-gapi>
<misc-zip>2660.000000</misc-zip>
<misc-jpeg>417.600000</misc-jpeg>
<misc-arkaball>8.140500</misc-arkaball>
<misc-mflops>3578.800000</misc-mflops>
<misc-mops>1001.700000</misc-mops>
<misc-mwips>7229.000000</misc-mwips>
<misc-memcpy>8.449000</misc-memcpy>
</main-tests>
</benchmark-results>

GXMark produced a white screen! i had to reset the device! No Idea whats up there!
Pocket Pc Mark wouldnt do a run on the graphics test, it got to 6/8 test and then locked, had to reset again, sorry!

Thanks for your efforts!
The SPB results are actually very poor unfortunately. Almost too poor, did you have lots of stuff running in the background or anything like that?
Apart from the pure CPU tests (including decompressing a JPEG and a ZIP file which both are very CPU bound as well) both filesystem operations and graphics operations are a lot lower (or at best equal in some cases) to what you would see on a Kaiser for an example..
I think at least we can say with certainty that the GAPI and GDI/DDI drivers are not any better than on the Kaiser, very minor boost due to faster memory and CPU sped can possibly be achieved but that's nothing compared to real hardware acceleration.
I really do hope that the next version of Windows Mobile and the included APIs andate some sort of all around graphics acceleration Video hardware acceleration seems to much like a tack on in current WM and the Diamond seems to be the ultimate proof of that.

the only things running are the default progs in the background like touchflo etc. something has been improved as ackys breakout and bejeweled 2 run beautifully in vga aswell, they ran like **** on my touch cruise (slowdown and stutters) in reality this phone ****s all over the cruise performance wise in games and general use.
One thing that was better on the cruise is the 3g reception which i could get inside my house but not with the diamond.
Tomtom6 displays real nice in vga also but takes a longer time plotting routes, much longer!

Try a psx emulator and see if it runs :]

"I really do hope that the next version of Windows Mobile and the included APIs andate some sort of all around graphics acceleration Video hardware acceleration seems to much like a tack on in current WM and the Diamond seems to be the ultimate proof of that."
it would still require drivers even if ms provided them like in normal windows
doubt ms would pay the coins htc dident

Can anyone with a Diamond please run the Futuremark benchmark as it does an open gl test as well as 2d and more, thanks
http://www.futuremark.com/download/spmarkjavajsr184/

I downloaded the suite (clicked all the tests)
Ran it and heres what i got:
http://service.futuremark.com/orbmobile/projectdetails_spmarkjavaweb.jsp?projectId=23157&projectType=20
Looks like it didnt want to do the 3d test......

This is discouraging. Most of the tests don't run, and those that run give really low results? Sounds familiar. I really don't want this to be yet another great hardware with lackluster software support...

Rudegar said:
it would still require drivers even if ms provided them like in normal windows
doubt ms would pay the coins htc dident
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes of course it would need drivers
but current Windows Mobile seems to be built with the assumption that there will be no specialized graphics hardware (so everything is build to run in software)
desktop windows is built on the assumption that there will be hardware acceleratio for 3D, video playback and even the GUI, I'm hoping windows mobile 7 sports a similiar approach, thus "forcing" manufacturers who want to ship even baseline WM devices to support their hardware with graphics drivers
also something with the underlying framework in windows mobile seems off when it comes to hw accelerated graphics, as I mentioned earlier it feels like a tack on that wasn't planned in the first place
thus even when we have devices with hardware and drivers it still not universally applicable (check the diamond for a perfect example, it has some level of hardware acceleration but it's not general and system wide for whatever reason)
so what I am hoping for is a standardized, general system wide assumption that future WinMo will have graphics hardware just the same as any PC today has some level of hardware acceleration (in effect making it close to impossible for companies like HTC to ship devices with hardware but without drivers)

jkr284 said:
I downloaded the suite (clicked all the tests)
Ran it and heres what i got:
http://service.futuremark.com/orbmo...arkjavaweb.jsp?projectId=23157&projectType=20
Looks like it didnt want to do the 3d test......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for running the test

Radeon123 said:
Thanks for running the test
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Pleasure!
To everyone worrying about gaming and movie performance i wouldnt worry at all,
The latest coreplayer has no lag in high quality films
Ive tried loads of astraware native vga games and they run flawlessly, with soe tweaking as shown on other threads the interface is now ery quick. I wouldnt bother stressing yourselves over the performance as its stellar for the size of the device.

jkr284 said:
My Pleasure!
To everyone worrying about gaming and movie performance i wouldnt worry at all,
The latest coreplayer has no lag in high quality films
Ive tried loads of astraware native vga games and they run flawlessly, with soe tweaking as shown on other threads the interface is now ery quick. I wouldnt bother stressing yourselves over the performance as its stellar for the size of the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
640x480 movies? (Coreplayer played those fine up until the latest Kaiser ROM)
3D games or regular 2d ones? (basically all astraware games run just fine on my tytn ii for an example)
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, it just seems as if the Diamond is basically missing the performance some of us thought it to have. (Though that's not to say that the performance is poor)

UPDATE ON CALL OF DUTY: Works absolutely awesome, NOT using minimal settings, i was able to play pretty well. NOTE: Tytn2 and Touch Cruise was NOT able to play due to heavy lag even with minimal settings. Game was perfectly fine, with except with just a small little, not lag, but looks like the rendering was a bit slow as i looked around, when i used hardkeys and stylus at the same time. NOTE: ALL pdas lag in gaming when using hardkeys and joystick at the same time. However, it was minimal, and call of duty was enjoyable to say the least. SO yes, it DOES have graphic accelerators. Proper benchmarks will be done when i have proper time.
UPDATE. SPB benchmark seems to hang. cant run it. hangs at testing word document.
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/711698

Baronic said:
UPDATE ON CALL OF DUTY: Works absolutely awesome, NOT using minimal settings, i was able to play pretty well. NOTE: Tytn2 and Touch Cruise was NOT able to play due to heavy lag even with minimal settings. Game was perfectly fine, with except with just a small little, not lag, but looks like the rendering was a bit slow as i looked around, when i used hardkeys and stylus at the same time. NOTE: ALL pdas lag in gaming when using hardkeys and joystick at the same time. However, it was minimal, and call of duty was enjoyable to say the least. SO yes, it DOES have graphic accelerators. Proper benchmarks will be done when i have proper time.
UPDATE. SPB benchmark seems to hang. cant run it. hangs at testing word document.
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/711698
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would love to see a youtube video of COD on the diamond. Can you please post. I would really appreciate it.

Are You a Gamer?

And do you flash roms? if so you probably already know that some of your games no longer work, im talking about games that use Direct Draw. Quake, Quake 2, Duke Nukem. I havn't stuck with one of these roms long enough to try out any other games, so those 3 are the only ones I can confirm. Depending on if you have error reporting turned on, here is what happens when you try to launch one of these games;
you tap the .exe, it will start to load up and appear to be working, but as soon as any graphics are produced it closes. It may bring up the error report screen and you can send this report to microsoft. If you have this disabled then of corse there is no error report.
It seems that the wm6.1 roms and Diamond based roms out there dont support direct draw.
Currently I'm running Dutty's 4/29 rom and it's the most stable, it supports Direct draw. It's a WM6.1 Rom, however it was released BEFORE the official WM6.1 was released, this may have something to do with it.
my main concern is people aren't aware of this issue, and recently the OpenGL drivers are being developed and ran on the Kaiser. OpenGL opens a whole new door for us gamers! (hopefully). However when this OpenGL roms are available to us, and don't support DirectDraw, that just CLOSES half of those doors .
What's the point of an OpenGL rom if that same rom doesnt support DirectDraw?
Roms not support direct draw: (please add on to this list)
ROMeOSv2.3
[24 June] HyperDragon III WM6.1 WWE ROM 19588 - 19591 (Diamond ROM)
[Jun 07] Dutty's Diamond V1 Build 19588
[June 25] L26_KaiserDiamond_V9 (and other L_26 roms)
[June 18] Death V4 Business edition
WM6.1 ATT 214 ROM _ Ryncppr Version V5 _ DIAMOND APPEAL
I have not been able to test EVERY rom out there, and im sure the rest of you guys can help me add on to this list. but it seems a good number of new roms dont support it.

And yes I've noticed it too. Doesn't the GBA emulators like Pocketgba and Snes emulators use DirectDraw too? It would help a lot if it were fixed. Even with the OpenGL drivers I doubt we would still be able to play these emulators at full speed.

I can confirm games like Quake and Duke not running on my 6.1 roms. I'm currently using the one in my sig so that can be added to the list. I have also tried Duttys Diamond rom, and a few L26 roms and can confirm they didn't work on there either. Warcraft II does work however, and all my emulators play just fine.

I can play Doom, PocketNestorPlus, and PocketSNES just fine. Using the configuration listed in my sig. Dunno if that helps or not...

eknutson said:
I can play Doom, PocketNestorPlus, and PocketSNES just fine. Using the configuration listed in my sig. Dunno if that helps or not...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
doom PocketNesterPlus, and PocketSNES worked for me as well, I'm not sure what they use for graphics.

Hey mikeeey, have you read my reply here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2347820&postcount=642

"im talking about games that use Direct Draw. Quake, Quake 2, Duke Nukem."
non of those games in their normal form use directdraw at all
they run on very old wm2000 devices too
and even in their dos versions the dident use any form of hardware acceleration
well later on they came in opengl versions but never dx

So the ddraw.dll built into all of those ROMS are broken?
Have you tried writing a test ddraw app to isolate if ddraw.dll is broken, or the way it's being used is bad?

Rudegar said:
"im talking about games that use Direct Draw. Quake, Quake 2, Duke Nukem."
non of those games in their normal form use directdraw at all
they run on very old wm2000 devices too
and even in their dos versions the dident use any form of hardware acceleration
well later on they came in opengl versions but never dx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
then what in the new roms are making these games not work?

sakajati said:
Hey mikeeey, have you read my reply here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2347820&postcount=642
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[Engine Setup]
UsingGapi = 0
yes this does switch it so it uses Gapi, but I had Gapi turned off for a reason, the reason being it crashed more. For example while playng duke, on the first level, if you look at the pool table it crashes for some reason, same with the orange lighting at the end of the level.

mikeeey said:
[Engine Setup]
UsingGapi = 0
yes this does switch it so it uses Gapi, but I had Gapi turned off for a reason, the reason being it crashed more. For example while playng duke, on the first level, if you look at the pool table it crashes for some reason, same with the orange lighting at the end of the level.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So using this setting the game will load, but it basically renders the game unplayable?

Pocket nes For Nintendo perfection plays most nes games.
Pico Drive for Sega Genesis. Plays them well with and without sound. some games better than others
Burner for Neo-Geo/cps1/cps2 games. I like this one.. choppy with sound, Great with out. Due to the my tilt being underpowered. its choppy with sound for now.
PocketSnes for Snes games. it works. It really works.. play with the settings to see what fits you. Due to the underpowered tilt.
I think i hit the best ones for the systems i listed above...i am sure this topic has been brought up in this forum before.. Please refer the search button on your top menu bar. It is located three buttons in from you light side.. Please feel free to Use this anytime.

i keep changing Roms because of this problem... i know that. If i can get my games running full speed on my wizard. IT really sucks because i know this **** is capable with so much more.... I mean there was a direct draw type program that was floating around. Its just a project tho....
all i know

"then what in the new roms are making these games not work?"
sounds like it i can still play them using wm6.1 on my himalaya but then it's not a full 6.1 i guess some of the core is prob of later date
also the ATI IMAGEON 3200 dont do 3d acceleration only a bit of 2d and video

So im just wondering why developers havn't found a way to not use the wm6.1 core, but still use the wm6.1 Diamond drivers and such..

I talked to dutty about the issue.
he says it's the new drivers that HTC released in the new wm6.1, it's some weird problem with landscape cleartype. I will flash a new rom and disable landscape cleartype and see if it helps.
it just seems slowly we have to disable more and more to get things worked (ex. A-GPS, sometimes HTC Home, now cleartype)
atleast we know the problem now!

mikeeey have you seen this yet? Quake 3 on the Diamond! Running very very slow but hey, it runs!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=405722

ahhh! no!!!
then that means with the OpenGL drivers for the Kaiser it may run at 2fps.
on my kaiser Quake 3 already runs between 1-3fps. mainly around 2fps.

see this is one of the main reasons im sticking to the most updated WM6 version until the updated and bug fixed 6.1 roms come ou for att or tmobile...once these directdraw and opengl / gps problems are fixed I don't see the need too upgrade 2 6.1 and have HALF my applications not work anymore when ALL of them work right now.

mikeeey said:
So im just wondering why developers havn't found a way to not use the wm6.1 core, but still use the wm6.1 Diamond drivers and such..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what about shoguns d3d driver cab i am using it on duttys hybrid 19716 6.1 rom and i can play pocketgba with sound and some of the games are very playable

I dont think 3D drivers exist on Diamond or TouchPro

Just because opengl es and D3DM work doesnt mean that the GPU is doing the work. I think all we have here is a software rasterizer that is using the CPU. There is no evidence that i am aware of that proves the graphics chip is active. Here is the evidence i collected that shows how the graphics are rendered.
1. In Touchflo 3d,if you go to the settings tab,and click about, there is a list of all the technology used to develop TF3D. Where it says opengl, there is a copyright 2004 Hans-Martin Will. Hans-Martin Will started the vincent3d opensource opengl es project, which is a SOFTWARE implementation. Basically what this means is,Touchflo 3d uses this graphics library to render graphics.
2.The D3Dmobile driver is only a wrapper around opengl ES. Why would we need a wrapper for D3DM if hardware drivers were present? What this means is that D3Dm is also rendered by software only. Notice how DirectDraw is also slow? Thats because there are no drivers.It wouldnt make sense for drivers to allow 3d acceleration only without support for 2d.
3.Samsung Omnia drivers work on the Diamond/Raphael. Huh? These two devices dont even have the same graphics chip. How can a driver for one graphics chip work on a completely different brand/model/type of graphics chip? It cant. The only explanation there could be is that the omnia driver is also a software rasterizer and thats why it works with the htc devices.

that sucks, because it makes sense..

most interesting...
i smell conspiracy...

so true.......................................

Play a very high quality MP4 (h.264) in software mode (with coreplayer for an example) and watch your diamond completely choke, then launch the same video with windows media player and see the difference!
That's one proof of hardware acceleration at least...
Also I highly doubt a game like Xtract would run as great as it does on the Diamond without any hardware acceleration, the graphics and framerate is way to good for the cpu to handle in only software mode, even if it was just drivers.

Aha, that is perhaps why iGo runs way better on my old tek S200 than on my fresh, new touch diamond.

mayby if you read the posts & topics
then you would see there is a 3d driver
just use de diamond ati 3d driver
my diamond goes from 0.2 fps in the hologram program to an stable 25 fps
Thats a hole inprovement
Ps sorry for my bad english
and i also included the driver in the attachment
Greetings Nossie

Hm, where did you find that? It didn't notice any differnce in the slowness of IGO really..Why isn't that installed by default?

disagree...
test the software and hardware versions of COD 2, THPS 2 and NFS Undercover. See the difference: 3D acceleration not only improves the texture and graphics in general, but the framerate. I think if it was just some kind of emulation 3d, improved graphics would worsen the framerate, but what you see is an increase in FPS! Therefore, I believe there is actually hardware acceleration.

getting Morpgear SNES, GBA to run smooth (3d Acceleration Cab needed?)

Hey Everyone
I have been combing this Fourms and there is a lot of stuff but I I have not found a soultion to run SNES and GBA games.
So my HTC (Kaiser) Runs Poorly on SNES and GBA Games. If I un enable the sound SNes Performace does get better, but it is still a little choppy. GBA games either way are choppy.
and of course NES, GB and GBC run very well
I have seen a few people mention they can get theirs to work and I was hoping to get mine up and running as well.
first I am Running WM 6.5
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=547754
That cooked version.
Morph Gear Version 2.4.09
after going through all the Posts I have also installed
HTC-CA-Kaiser-Drivers.cab
HTC TI Kaiser Drivers.cab
I was going to try
SJ SamsungOmnia_Driver_D3D.cab (but have not done it yet)
Does anyone have any tips?

IMHO the best speed for emulation can be achived only whith native 6.1 rom whothout superram

obaz said:
IMHO the best speed for emulation can be achived only whith native 6.1 rom whothout superram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not at all, snesgo is almost full speed with sound on but it only works on qvga screens for now, and it work perfectly regardless of rom used

obaz said:
IMHO the best speed for emulation can be achived only whith native 6.1 rom whothout superram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, I've been looking to optimize my new Tilt for high-speed gaming/emulation (and applications in general) as well... and to be totally honest, all this about flashing and roms (especially the tutorials) has confused me senseless; however this native ROM you speak of looks like it's what I want.
...could you link me to that ROM?
...and does it have any compatibility issues with the Tilt's keyboard/function keys, or other sorts of connection manager hell I'd have to go through to get it properly working on AT&T's MEdia Net 3G?

yoyoman2 said:
Hey, I've been looking to optimize my new Tilt for high-speed gaming/emulation (and applications in general) as well... and to be totally honest, all this about flashing and roms (especially the tutorials) has confused me senseless; however this native ROM you speak of looks like it's what I want.
...could you link me to that ROM?
...and does it have any compatibility issues with the Tilt's keyboard/function keys, or other sorts of connection manager hell I'd have to go through to get it properly working on AT&T's MEdia Net 3G?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
any last shipped 6.1 rom from wiki you whant. but it was writen before I try snesgo, and I must say - it is the best snes emu ever. runing smooth on on pdacornerXv9. only one bug - I cannt map qwerty as gamepad.

Most emulators were written ages ago. I wouldn't consider any of them anywhere near a finished product. Also, unless you're talking about PSX or N64 emulation, the 3D accelerator won't increase the frame rate. Though, it could make the graphics look smoother and sharper, without making the game slower.
3D acceleration is just a mess on the Kaiser as well. Most applications are looking for a Nvidia, PowerVR, or Xscale to even run. Even still, more roms come with superram, which prevents the use of proper 3D drivers. I myself am still in the process of trying to find a clean WM6.5 rom, without superram.

Dukenukemx
nes, snes or sega is not 3d-game console. so not of any 3d drivers neded at all. it is all about 2d.

obaz, that's what I said.

[Q] Any Chance of Windows Phone 7 Here???

Hi does anyone think there will be a chance that windows phone 7 can be ported onto the HTC Diamond, I've just seen the first look videos for the 3 new win 7 phones and the new OS looks awesome
would appreciate an answer
thanks

no i think.....because wp7 requires direct 3d hardware accelerated gpu and diamond have an opengl es 1.1 hardware accelerated gpu....diamond can run d3d apps or games but the driver is a translator from d3d code to opengl code....

but if the driver is translating the code, can't similar be done to wp7, then the graphics might work but it would be slightly slow

yes the graphics will be very slow......i think so maybe...hope i'm miss!