Good news for us chefs... - XPERIA X1 ROM Development

Good news for us chefs... - XPERIA X1 ROM Development

Microsoft and HTC both agree on XDA-Developers "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em
According to tweakers.net (dutch), a very popular and more important, trustworthy Dutch IT website.http://forum.xda-developers.com/
XDA-Developers breaches intellectual property laws regarding ROM Cooking.
However Microsoft and HTC both agree "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em."
Microsoft will not send take down orders to sites such as XDA-Developers, who offer customized ROMs for windows-mobile telephone.
Some sites offering ROMs based on Windows Mobile 6.5 got take down orders last week. They, However, appeared to be hoax.
“Taking action against sites such as XDA-Developers isn’t a matter of concern for Microsoft” says Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands against tweakers.net. “What happens there, the modifying of ROMs, is illegal. The intellectual property however is not with us. The ROMs are intellectual property of the producers of the phone or the mobile phone providers if it concerns branded telephones. We simple only deliver the OS.”
The biggest producer of Windows Mobile-phones, HTC, also says they don’t have any plans to take action against ROM sites. “What happens there isn’t allowed” says HTC Benelux-CEO Mark Moons,
“But XDA-Developers is the biggest and most active community of Windows Mobile-developers. We can’t live with ‘em and we can’t live without ‘em.”
Last week it seemed there were to come an end to tolerating Windows Mobile-communities.
A certain ‘James Young’ sent emails on behalf of Microsoft to site managers in which he stated that they were sharing illegal content, and summoned them to stop their practices; some site managers, in fact, did this.
It mostly concerned ROMs with betas of Windows Mobile 6.5, the update of Microsoft’s Mobile OS that should appear this summer

Haha nice one

Nice, but doesn't come much as a surprise. This community is the only reason Windows Mobile is still competitive. And Microsoft knows it. Besides that, why should they bother? Other than on the desktop PC, the phone hardware is quite limited without proper drivers WM won't run on phones which weren't supposed to run it in the first place. So Microsoft sold their license, HTC (or any other manufacturer) bought it and end of story. They have absolutly no disadvantage when ppl start cooking ROMs - in the contrary. I can't even begin to image using my X1 or any other WM-phone without the customization options presented here. Without them, I wouldn't have bought another WM-phone and become a WM-fan ... ;-)

Read this on tweakers.net yesterday, don't know if we should be happy about this statement.
But it seems xda-developers is going to be watched carefully by MS and HTC, probably has been already.
Until the take serious actions against this community I'm going to flash my X1 with Touch-IT ROMs as many as possible

I would say Microsoft and HTC is the winners here. The ROM cooking means more people is attracted to the platform and for me the reason I bough the X1 was this community.

Rather than moaning, HTC and Microsoft should make donations to XDADevs because this community is one of the main reasons why both of them rose to unforeseen heights.

skycamefalling said:
Rather than moaning, HTC and Microsoft should make donations to XDADevs because this community is one of the main reasons why both of them rose to unforeseen heights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree with u lolz

E90 Commie said:
I would say Microsoft and HTC is the winners here. The ROM cooking means more people is attracted to the platform and for me the reason I bough the X1 was this community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
i bought my htc wizard and SE x1 because of xda-developers.if they shut rom sites down i ll never buy windows mobile device that's for sure.my phone is my home so i ll decide how will i decorate my home not microsoft.cheers

Yeah i've read that also (im dutch and visit that site 3 times a day or so )
I think that htc says "MAKE NICE ROMS XDA, or else we will.....)

I'll add my 2 pennies worth...
I'm not a cook, though I sorely wish I were! However, thanks to XDA developers, I've had WM phones for the past 5 years, up until Blue Angel I *only* would have Nokia phones, but I was given the Blue Angel as a present and hated it. I then accidentally found XDA when I was going to sell the Blue Angel and was looking for a way to unlock the sim. Figuring I had nothing to lose as I hated the phone anyway, I put a new rom on and fell in love! Since then, I've had every HTC phone and just recently went to the Xperia *ONLY* because of this website. If XDA wasn't here, I would have gotten the N96 or a Blackberry.
So, for what it is worth MS and HTC if you're reading... Leave XDA alone, support it where you can, and be happy for the generosity of this community for making the product you produce better and more usable!

the only reason I got rid of my Omina and went back to a HTC made pda was because of the support and options that I can find here, good move from microsoft however I suspect microsoft as always turned a blind eye to a degree (remember the fpt problems?)

Cool. This is a pretty big community of developers.

James Joung lives here in my neighbourhood
Now I understand why he has spent the whole week laughing

Well,
if it wern't for XDA developers, when I got my Orange c500 (Back in the day) that would have been the last WM phone I bought.
Since then ive had:
Orange c550
Orance c600
MDA Vario
HTC TYTN
HTC Touch Diamond
Sony Xperia X1
goes to show the value of XDA... if anything, I think Microsoft, HTC etc should jump on the band wagon and help chefs get the best out of WM, or at least, some kind of formal agreement should be attained to help protect the community

can't live without them(xda),hehe.. htc and microsoft should donate to support xda !

gtrab said:
James Joung lives here in my neighbourhood
Now I understand why he has spent the whole week laughing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe he was laughing because his CEO, told him that if he will try to touch this site, he will have to fill up for unemployment... This site have 41,159 members (ONLY ) and allmost all of us, we own between 2-4 HTC pda phones. If HTC will loose us, I guess that they will show the middle finger to Microsoft and they will stick with Android from the time on...

To be honest in that perverse way MS has BENEFITTED from 'Piracy' etc. throughout their history. Take Office for example - way back in the day Lotus and Wordperfect were the dominant market forces. MS were trying to force their way into the market wth their Office products. In the end they blew away the competition - how? Because their media had no copy protection - thus Office Workers ended up getting copies from work to put on their home PCs to carry on extra work at home. The others had copy protection.
MS turned a blind eye to this because they knew that the more people had Office, the more they would want it in their workplace - so much so that in the end how many companies use those products anymore? Now that they are the dominant force, Piracy is an issue.
It is the same with sites like XDA-Devs. The mobile phone market is huge and will get bigger even in these times. WinMo is still a small part of that market - Nokia and Symbian undoubtably have an edge here. However people are becoming more savvy about mobiles and want more from them which is where MS, RIM, and Apple come in (with an improving Symbian).
However if all the consumers had to rely on was 'Stock' ROMs and buggy WinMo (esp. when consumers will compare it to the iPhone etc.) then WinMo would have nowehere near the amount of consumers, and would die a slow death. However thanks to XDA-Devs (and sites like these) we can buy these phones confident that some super talented Cook will provide us with a ROM that will get us the full experience of these devices. Hence we will then buy the next generation, then the next etc.
MS and HTC know this - hence why they can't 'live without 'em'. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face eh?....

@itje
after reading the good news.. please bring back your Touch-IT WM 6.5 project rom.. hehe =)

damskie said:
@itje
after reading the good news.. please bring back your Touch-IT WM 6.5 project rom.. hehe =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He just did, and posted the new ROM for download.
[/offtopic]

Related

An Open Letter to Microsoft - Let us develop WM6 please

Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1

cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.

Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.

Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.

What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!

!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.

My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.

I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?

pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.

jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!

pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.

texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.

Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.

rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.

I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.

It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??

Did I buy the wrong phone after all?!?

When I originally chose the successor to my aging gSmart phone, I did a lot(!) of research on functionality, features and technological viability.
But somehow it never appeared to me to check out the viability of the underlying Operating System (WinMo) itself - given my early history with PalmOS and how Palm Inc. had just surrendered to Microzoft over nite, it never dawned on me that WinMo itself might one day share the same fate as the doomed Palm Operating System.
But now I stumbled across this Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile
Now did I just spend $800 on a phone (and am about to waste another $100 on renewing my non-transferable licenses) that won't have any Operating System Updates coming past 2010?!
In that article HTC is alleged to not just be the greatest supplier of WinMo phones, with 80% they're pretty much *it* - meaning no HTC no WinMo phone market no more.
Now what does HTC say about their commitment to the WinMo platform?
And if HTC decides not to release e.g. WM7 for the HD2, will the ROM cookers of XDA come to our aid and port for us (please) one of those leaked versions?
So many questions and so few answers

WM will still be developed. ROM updates will be released. WM7 will be released for the HD2 probably officially and for free. I really don't see the problem. Besides the HTC Sense hides WM so much that if there wasn't the start icon on the screen you wouldn't even notice it works on WM...

gregormax said:
WM will still be developed. ROM updates will be released. WM7 will be released for the HD2 probably officially and for free. I really don't see the problem. Besides the HTC Sense hides WM so much that if there wasn't the start icon on the screen you wouldn't even notice it works on WM...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Ever spoken to an OS/2 user lately or watch the calisthenics of an Amiga user when trying to perform such mundane tasks like trying to run a GigaByte database application on his systm?
Ever watched an Atari user trying to download a 300MB file from the Internet?
Seen a Palm User playing Adobe Flash videos lately?
I could go on like this, but it is naive at best to have the attitude "because I don't see my Operating system during daily use, I don't have to worry about getting support for it..."

Microsoft have rested on their laurels for too long, and WM7 might be too far away to do any good. But don't worry, WM6.6 is just around the corner.... What is that gonna bring???
Android has come from nowhere, fueled by the Iphone?
WM is just cluncky right now, HTC can only cover over the little cracks of WM, but the big cracks still exist. One day soon, even HTC will say "Windows... ahhh Feck it!!!"
I've always poo-pooed Android because I would not want to leave the WM apps I have on my device. But those apps I have are apps that rectify WM shortcomings in the first place - shortcomings that don't appear on Android.
There are only two apps I can't live without and would keep me using WM a device, and they are My Sport Training and My Personal Diet. And in 2010 they are going to be ported over to Android. When I see them on Android, I will sit up....
I just think all the other operating systems are getting more polished, but WM is still a turd. And an old turd at that....
A final point that has just come to me.... People say that WM allows you to alter the settings and just tinker.... why? Because it is crap and you need to spend so much time getting it right? Because people here at forums like this can do better and produce software better than MS or HTC????
Am I ranting??? Am I coming to the end of WM?
Discuss...

pharao said:
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's particularly offensive and you should apologise to gregormax immediately for that!
The "article" you linked suggest that it may be possible that windows mobile will no longer be developed. It's an analyst suggesting a possibility - it is not fact, or even likely.
You should read the whole thing again, but don't take it as gospel just because an analyst was "quoted" on a wiki page.

pharao said:
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Ever spoken to an OS/2 user lately or watch the calisthenics of an Amiga user when trying to perform such mundane tasks like trying to run a GigaByte database application on his systm?
Ever watched an Atari user trying to download a 300MB file from the Internet?
Seen a Palm User playing Adobe Flash videos lately?
I could go on like this, but it is naive at best to have the attitude "because I don't see my Operating system during daily use, I don't have to worry about getting support for it..."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good analogies... My Amiga 500 Plus had a 170mb hardrive. Huge!!!!! I only filled 40mb of it! lol... And I could run a country off that! And that was only 18 years ago... LOL

I don't see what the fuss is about. What more do you want it to do?
It sends emails, sms (some times ) & mms
Connects to the internet.
Has wifi
Can be used as a router
Takes photos & video
Plays videos
Has weather & stocks
Finger friendly (If you say its not you have chubby fingers and should start eating lettice)
Plays games
Theres loads more. So what if WM7 doesn't come out on this it's a great phone as it is (apart from sms issue)

What more do I want it to do? I can think of a lot I would like my handheld to do in the future. I want it to show actual video of the road I'm driving down with a big orange stripe telling me where to go. That's the navigation of the future. I want it to stream HD video flawlessly, from every possible source. I want it to play music and have a DAC and preamp as good as a high end car/home stereo. I want it to call the police when it gets stolen and tell them where it is. I want to be able to think of words and have them appear on the screen, same with opening applications. I want it to be incredibly easy to use and predict what I'm going to do before I do it. I want it to tell me that my favorite Cheesesteak restaurant is going out of business in a week so I better swing by for a last sandwich before it's too late. I want it to clock me in at work when I walk in the door and send a message to them when it determines I won't make it on time.
I don't hate WM and Sense 2.5 right now at all, my phone does more than anybody else's around me but there is no way I would be happy with it a decade from now. I bet if you look back at a phone you were totally happy with ten years ago that you wouldn't want it in your pocket today.
Microsoft hasn't lost yet but they need to get to work and they need to do it fast, that is if they want to compete. Maybe they don't care about mobile any more. That's OK too, other companies do and will care.

pharao said:
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Ever spoken to an OS/2 user lately or watch the calisthenics of an Amiga user when trying to perform such mundane tasks like trying to run a GigaByte database application on his systm?
Ever watched an Atari user trying to download a 300MB file from the Internet?
Seen a Palm User playing Adobe Flash videos lately?
I could go on like this, but it is naive at best to have the attitude "because I don't see my Operating system during daily use, I don't have to worry about getting support for it..."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all you get support and new updates from HTC. A new version of WM? OK, what for? You write about Atari, Palm, etc. but this just shows you don't know what you're talking about. What great feature do you see for phones coming before WM7 is released (this year)? Because right now with the 6.5 you can do EVERYTHING the competition offers and even more (compare the HD2 to the iPhone for instance). Your arguments about Amiga and Atari are quite... let's say childish. The last popular Amiga was released more than 15 years ago so what do you want to prove with that. The problem here is not the software but the hardware. In 3 years the HD2 won't be probably even decent compared to newer devices and system updates won't help. Do you think that with a new Amiga OS (i.e. Workbench) you would now be able to open 1GB files on an Amiga 1200 with 2MB of RAM? Wish you luck .
In matter of OS I really don't see any update which would be a must before WM7 is released and as we all know WM7 will be probably available for the HD2 for free. So if you see some indispensable updates for WM6.5 be my guest - I really wonder what it could be. Besides it's really smart to rely on Wikipedia for official news... afaik WM is still in development and WM6.6 will be released soon - just as I wrote in the first post - quote: "WM will still be developed". The problem is that for no apparent reason you think WM won't be developed anymore and that's a quite naive statement.

johncmolyneux said:
That's particularly offensive and you should apologise to gregormax immediately for that!
The "article" you linked suggest that it may be possible that windows mobile will no longer be developed. It's an analyst suggesting a possibility - it is not fact, or even likely.
You should read the whole thing again, but don't take it as gospel just because an analyst was "quoted" on a wiki page.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why is it offensive if I ask someone who in essence says "If I don't see my OpSys then I don't have to worry about it not being supported any more" if he tries to be dense on purpose?
That is not offensive at all, and I will most certainly not apologize for making a valid point here.
Quite to the contrary I think that gregormax should think about how qualified his remarks were, which most certainly did not address the issue of my posting at all - but just tried to belittle it all.
And I did read the whole darn article, including the part where every(!) industry analyst agreed that 2010 is the out time for Windows Mobile and WinMo7 the last major release of it.
And I have seen this cycle happening before.
As soon as the OpSys manufacturer pulls the plug on their platform, all the major SW developers will stop developing for it - and in most cases will also stop supporting their apps.
Regardless of how much money users just paid for their software.
So I do think that this is a valid point of concern for anyone spending close to a thousand dollars on their HTC device.

Towserspvm2000 said:
Good analogies... My Amiga 500 Plus had a 170mb hardrive. Huge!!!!! I only filled 40mb of it! lol... And I could run a country off that! And that was only 18 years ago... LOL
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you realize that there are still Amiga computers sold even today?
They have two companies in Italy still marketing that platform.
Their designs look quite impressive, until you get to the actual technical details.
And then you realize how hopelessly outdated the whole darn thing is.
And "running a whole country of 170mb"?
I doubt that very much. Even back in the days, it took more than that just to manage a single city. That is what IBM mainframes were made for.

All is said but here my 5 cent.
A company like MS does have the claim to be present in all possible software markets regardless of the fact wheter with or without success. They will never drop it even if they lose money because to them its an image thingy....
I'm also pretty sure that Microsoft will bring at some point their own smartphone which is currently nothing else but a rumour but gonna come true once and that will be running on such an OS developed by MS as well.
Cheers
LEE

Towserspvm2000 said:
Microsoft have rested on their laurels for too long, and WM7 might be too far away to do any good. But don't worry, WM6.6 is just around the corner.... What is that gonna bring???
Android has come from nowhere, fueled by the Iphone?
WM is just cluncky right now, HTC can only cover over the little cracks of WM, but the big cracks still exist. One day soon, even HTC will say "Windows... ahhh Feck it!!!"
I've always poo-pooed Android because I would not want to leave the WM apps I have on my device. But those apps I have are apps that rectify WM shortcomings in the first place - shortcomings that don't appear on Android.
There are only two apps I can't live without and would keep me using WM a device, and they are My Sport Training and My Personal Diet. And in 2010 they are going to be ported over to Android. When I see them on Android, I will sit up....
I just think all the other operating systems are getting more polished, but WM is still a turd. And an old turd at that....
A final point that has just come to me.... People say that WM allows you to alter the settings and just tinker.... why? Because it is crap and you need to spend so much time getting it right? Because people here at forums like this can do better and produce software better than MS or HTC????
Am I ranting??? Am I coming to the end of WM?
Discuss...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I would have most certainly accused you of "ranting" myself, until I read what all those Industry Analysts and the major phone suppliers said about their (lacking) support for WinMo - that and the ever Shrinking Market Share of WM.
Now I feel I just wasted another thousand dollars (phone + SW licenses) on a freaking Dinosaur.
A device outdated by its Operating System before it even hit the shelves

lee1980 said:
All is said but here my 5 cent.
A company like MS does have the claim to be present in all possible software markets regardless of the fact wheter with or without success. They will never drop it even if they lose money because to them its an image thingy....
...
Cheers
LEE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They used to say the same About Apple and the Newton, until Apple dropped that platform over night.
Same with IBM and OS/2.
I just don't see how they can survive their ever shrinking market share and I never knew that 80% of all WinMo phones are made by one single company - HTC.

balane said:
What more do I want it to do? I can think of a lot I would like my handheld to do in the future. I want it to show actual video of the road I'm driving down with a big orange stripe telling me where to go. That's the navigation of the future. I want it to stream HD video flawlessly, from every possible source. I want it to play music and have a DAC and preamp as good as a high end car/home stereo. I want it to call the police when it gets stolen and tell them where it is. I want to be able to think of words and have them appear on the screen, same with opening applications. I want it to be incredibly easy to use and predict what I'm going to do before I do it. I want it to tell me that my favorite Cheesesteak restaurant is going out of business in a week so I better swing by for a last sandwich before it's too late. I want it to clock me in at work when I walk in the door and send a message to them when it determines I won't make it on time.
I don't hate WM and Sense 2.5 right now at all, my phone does more than anybody else's around me but there is no way I would be happy with it a decade from now. I bet if you look back at a phone you were totally happy with ten years ago that you wouldn't want it in your pocket today.
Microsoft hasn't lost yet but they need to get to work and they need to do it fast, that is if they want to compete. Maybe they don't care about mobile any more. That's OK too, other companies do and will care.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't care about Sandwiches or what happens a decade from now.
But that my old TomTom App & Maps no longer work on the HTC HD2 and that it is now highly unlikely that TomTom will ever offer support for that platform, yes that does concern me a lot.
The same goes for my multiple talking language dictionaries I own, as I do travel excessively.
If they are not ported over, I just wasted close to $200 for language packs I can't even use as weights (should have bought the paper version instead ;-(
There are many, many such applications that I used to run on my old gSmart phone, and was waiting to be ported to the WVGA HD2 platform.
But after reading that article I highly, highly doubt that many SW vendors will be in a hurry to invest development capacity for a dieing platform.

pharao said:
They used to say the same About Apple and the Newton, until Apple dropped that platform over night.
Same with IBM and OS/2.
I just don't see how they can survive their ever shrinking market share and I never knew that 80% of all WinMo phones are made by one single company - HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well but those examples are a bit different. OS/2 was dropped because microsoft finished the coop. with IBM (simply a strategic decision for focusing on windows) and the newton because of the not given market acceptance. None of the because of the big competition on the market like now....
Maybe they should corner the HTC ;-)

You are so wrong my friend. I have an ex colleague that works for Route 66. They received all the Android prototypes and WM phones to get software developed on them. Android will get navigation software and my guess is that the HD2 will also get navigation software for the new wm7. He can't tell me more, because of the confidentiality.
I really think you are exaggerating and the lack of inside info, or any kind of confirmation, strong rumor, or whatever is making you think this way.
Just give it a couple of months until we see wm7 and we get an official confirmation for the hd2.

pharao said:
Why is it offensive if I ask someone who in essence says "If I don't see my OpSys then I don't have to worry about it not being supported any more" if he tries to be dense on purpose?
That is not offensive at all, and I will most certainly not apologize for making a valid point here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I told you to apologise because this is supposed to be a mature and helpful forum, and not filled with people who immediately start name-calling as soon as there is a person who disagrees with their point of view. People who resort to that are singularly responsible for the only bad aspect of this whole forum.
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You WERE offensive and you SHOULD apologise. If you had any level of maturity you would at least accept that name-calling is pretty pathetic and pointless.

lorin.bute said:
You are so wrong my friend. I have an ex colleague that works for Route 66. They received all the Android prototypes and WM phones to get software developed on them. Android will get navigation software and my guess is that the HD2 will also get navigation software for the new wm7. He can't tell me more, because of the confidentiality.
I really think you are exaggerating and the lack of inside info, or any kind of confirmation, strong rumor, or whatever is making you think this way.
Just give it a couple of months until we see wm7 and we get an official confirmation for the hd2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I spoke with TomTom about support for the HD2 they told me flat out "no support and none planned".
And I need turn by turn mapping software that includes places like Eastern Europe, Africa and South America.
Not just maps for downtown London or Los Angeles.
And there are not so many GPS capable map application providers out there who "cover the whole globe".
The WinMo support by companies like TomTom was the reason why I bought my first WinMo phone to begin with, as I had originally set my mind on a Linux phone.
If HTC can not secure that kind of support for the HD2, then I made a serious misjudgment in spending that much money for this device :-(

Is STEVE BALLMER literally RETARDED? MS to charge carriers for WM7. Yet Android=Free?

Sometimes 2 pictures can tell a story better than 1000 words. What is wrong with one of these 2 pictures?
DEATH WISH / Link
vs.
ON-A-ROLL / Link
Is the MS strategy so secret and mind boggling that I am simply not smart enough to comprehend its brilliance? Or is there a wattage problem in MS's Board Room?
.
.

I can live with it adding $20 to the cost of a device. There are also things like TCO or similar that apply to a manufacturer and in turn to a customer.

The answer is yes. He is most definitely retarded.
Fact is that wimo could NEVER have been considered successful. Mostly because it is a piece of trash. Charging more [than nothing] for it is suicide -- especially when you compare it to the in-every-conceivable-way superior ANDROID, which is free.
I actually quite like their strategy of shooting themselves in the head. It means that they will die off faster.

Alright, let's do a recap:
-Android is 100% free, WinMo is not
-They are about to charge CARRIERS, so say goodbye to unlocked phones
-It's Windows Mobile, so say goodbye to Google services. If you like Bing, Windows Live and the rest, good for you, but most of us don't.
He is to Microsoft what Bush was to the US. He is arrogant, generally misoriented and strengthen the opinion the public has about Microsoft.

N1c0_ds said:
Alright, let's do a recap:He is to Microsoft what Bush was to the US. He is arrogant, generally misoriented and strengthen the opinion the public has about Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, this is quite apt, and yet I have never made the connection before. Now that you've made it for me, there are thousands of 1:1 analogies that flow like a rain-flooded river out of my head.
His "Mission Accomplished" was his laughing off the iphone. That was the beginning of the end of staying relevant. Now, 3-4 years later, he's introducing his own iphone, but with one very clever and extremely significant difference:
He's calling his Windows Phone.

Ballmer has been blowing it for years! That's why XDA thrives fixing his OS and why Adroid is on the fast track.

I had 3 WinMo phones before my Hero and I thought it was amazing, I was really reluctant to switch to Android, and after using Android for 1 day I'm pretty sure I'll never use WinMo again. If someone paid me $100 to use WinMo instead of Android, I wouldn't; so asking people to pay THEM to use WinMo is just stupid.

It really starts to come down to the essence of this site
rpimps said:
I had 3 WinMo phones before my Hero and I thought it was amazing, I was really reluctant to switch to Android, and after using Android for 1 day I'm pretty sure I'll never use WinMo again. If someone paid me $100 to use WinMo instead of Android, I wouldn't; so asking people to pay THEM to use WinMo is just stupid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my exact experience. It isn't a punitive view. It has nothing to do with loyalty/disloyalty, or "they're late to delivering their new OS, so I will punish them by not using it". This has everything to do with how good the combination of HTC + Android is. There is not one thing I long for, there is nothing at all that I am missing using my HTC Hero running Android. HTC's SenseUI on top of Android (which i had never run before, nor even tried before, deciding I wanted to buy the Hero) works so beautifully right out of the box, and the Android market is filled with apps & utilities that make the device's functionality even greater.
I spent over 3 years here, a whole year before even registering, just to help make my T-Mobile MDA device useful to me.
I am saying this: Before my first touchscreen device, I had a very reliable Samsung clamshell device... Being very careful, while in the car I could hit a speed dial and get someone on the phone, activate speakerphone etc., and when the call was done, bullet-proof step to end the cal;. I could feel it in my fingers.
Entering the world of touchscreens, of which I am such a huge champion I have created an awards series in support of, I quickly discovered, to my immediate dismay, "I can't even make a phone call without having this screen up to my face"... But worse, put it in my pocket and for a year my friends are all angry "why do you keep calling me?". Try to get the phone OUT of my pocket to answer a call before it goes to voicemail, 9 times out of ten a touchscreen area gets pushed and call is lost.
Then the tiny tiny keyboard you use reading glasses to see so you can poke that stylus precisely... I was wondering, "what have I traded away for a screen that can browse the web?"
Again, 4 years ago, thankfully one T-mobile store salesperson in San Francisco told me about this site, kind of in hushed tones while inside the store as employee. When I first came here, like with many folks, it was an intimidating jungle, with caution signs everywhere: "READ THIS FIRST" "DON'T POST WITHOUT SEARCHING". I would finally come to what I thought would be straight-forward set of instructions: "A Newbie's Guide to Upgrading your T-Mobile MDA", only to encounter in the very first sentence "Make sure your phone ist HARD-SPL'd or you'll brick it"... "HARD SPL? What does THAT mean?" It took me well over 6 months, back then, to stop-and-go, stop-and-go-back, just then searching for "what is HARD SPL?" only to come to yet another thread saying stuff like "To make sure your device is capable of HARD SPL, it must be all ROMS after 63i850db247, not before or you'll brick your phone"... Read 100's of pages of thread and not one post saying "Yes, your MDA is fine for Hard-SPL". On and on it went til finally, after being slapped down a few times for asking questions (they would link me back to the very threads I already had plowed through), I got some help to get me started.
And THAT day began the pursuit toward USEFULNESS OF USING MY PHONE.
Admit it, more than 3/4 of this site has always been about compensating for what may have been a very fine underlying OS, but a terrible, terrible unfriendly user experience. I upgraded to the T-Mobile Wing before the iPhone came out and was finally at the spot where XDA-devs had created 1000 workarounds for those tiny menus you have to hold up to your face to see... They stripped out the inefficiencies of various WM software, and suddenly I could multi-task keeping Google Maps aways open, with contacts open, notes, music player, ans various utilities. Finally, for me, after 3 years I had a USEABLE PHONE that matched the promise of the ads and marketing.
In almost all cases, XDA-devs were generally NOT exploiting some fabulously smart feature of WindowsMobile, and making it better. They were taking poorly-thought out functionality and terrible UI, and adapting it to become useful. And when the iphone hit, then the paradigm of finger-based navigation changed everything, and XDA-devs created UIs that replicated the easier to "hit" target zones of the iphone interface. Lots of 3rd party shells, etc... But almost ALL of this was to correct deficiencies due to handicaps of what was core Windows Mobile. Still, to this day, people like Supbro, developer of iDialer, and his branch of iContact, have been correcting the stupidity of tiny text for adding a new contact.
I'm just saying: Here I am 4 years later, having had amazing functionality delivered to me thanks to great chefs here, great app & utility developers, and, let's all face it, GREAT ROMS from HTC which were broken apart to extract and enable yet MORE compensating UI fixes (like TouchFlo), all to FIX and mask over the terrible user experience of Windows Mobile.
THUS, when I got my Hero, and began to use it, and from DAY 1, it just works, and it's easy and intuitive, and with all these great widgets and real-time display updates, I realized even more: JEEZ! Finally an OS that is smarter out the gate. Yet Windows STILL had a year to come in and show the marketplace it had learned a thing or two, after the G1 introduced the world to Android. And all they could burp out, with all their resources and skilled engineers, was windows 6.5? And they had to even quickly abandon their explicit HONEYCOMB Ui after it was immediately, and rightfully ridiculed as
"THIS is your new thinking, Microsoft? Your honeycomb staggered alignment, and your start button at bottom center. THIS IS IT??"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So Ballmer 6-9 months ago "gets religion" and admits (in that infamous private meeting widely reported throughout cellphone land) his whole company should have focused on WM7, and not gone down the 6.5 path, because they were already so behind their new-found competitors... And there was a HOPE, a spark, an ember left, that said, OKAY, MS has HUGE resources and money... so if they tackle this well, they could well turn everything around. But that delivery date for WM 7 was FEBRUARY 2010. Meanwhile many companies moved forward: Google, Motorola, HTC and we saw October, November, December just POUND the marketplace with success after success of Android products, coupled with HTC and Motorola keeping the competitive spirit alive which drives innovation.
JANUARY 2010, and Google comes out with NEXUS ONE --- full of problems, including Google's total fumble with the whole concept of "dealing with customers"... and HTC has had their Snapdragon-processor phone lines well in development as well... And now they've got phones in the marketplace right now much better than the Nexus One, with a new optical trackball, and other usability advances.
And so here we are in February 2010, the very time at which WM 7 was set to be IN THE MARKETPLACE wowing us with what we all hoped would be something re-invented, reviving their tattered brand. And now it's September 2010? Who here believes they'll make THAT date? But great, a little tease at a Mobile World Congress revives some hope that it will all be worth it.
That's 7 months from now! We will surely see in that time a whole new iteration of iPhone OS software. And who knows what from Android?
So I come not to bash Ballmer, but to question his brain-function. With all these deficits working against MS's comeback, he has the audacity to play chess with the marketplace and proclaim there will be add-on carrier fees for his company's new WM7 OS phones? I really meant it literally. Does this man have a screw loose?
Sorry for the BOOK length post, but for anyone reading it, tell me where I'm wrong?
XDA-devs SAVED THEIR ASSES for the past 3 years -- by enabling their crippled OS to do tricks that satisfied customer demand. And now that I bought the Hero -- because I liked what I saw -- and have used it for 4 months, I just don't see the point in wondering "what will WM 7 really be like?" -- because once I made that leap, I'm no longer dealing with 3/4 of the efforts of this great site devoted to COMPENSATION for what WM lacked. Maybe there are people with great sentimental ties to WM -- because naturally after working one's asses off to build off of it, and create great useful software products, features and utilities, there would be a lot of cognitive dissonance at play when contemplating where to continue your development efforts going forward.
And there IS sentimentalism that drives quite a bit of WM enthusiasm. ANd that's fine. But here I am 4 months into using my HERO, and I have yet to even feel the need to come here and root my phone and make it EVEN BETTER. I will, for sure... But I haven't needed to. It's all frosting or gravy for something that inherently works AS SHIPPED.
So that's my rationale. rpimps' prior post just flushed this essay out of me... yet what he's said in 2 sentences summarizes everything I just typed.
Choice is good. And for everyone who wants to stick with WM, I am sure there will be plenty of fruits to bare. But meanwhile I *use* my phone and depend on it right now, not 7 months from now. I'm not looking back.

galaxys said:
That's why XDA thrives fixing his OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And that really is the summary statement about the genesis of and incredible growth of this great site.

If they want to sell WM they need to make it exactly the same as Android, and make a long press on the Home button bring up the usual WM task list to switch between running apps. I'd buy that.

I'm starting to get pretty sick of all this love for Android and how anything Android will blow WP7 out of the water. All this love for a dumbed-down smartphone. None of us have seen WP7, except for a few screenshots here and there and in my opinion it looks great. MS had to make some changes if they wanted to stay relevant, because what we forget is that the "power-users" make up a very small percentage of the buyers market. However, I really do hope that MS does not forget about us all together. All I know is that come December, I'll be rocking the new WP7 and not an Android. Theres my 2 cents.

Irishpride said:
I'm starting to get pretty sick of all this love for Android and how anything Android will blow WP7 out of the water. All this love for a dumbed-down smartphone. None of us have seen WP7, except for a few screenshots here and there and in my opinion it looks great. MS had to make some changes if they wanted to stay relevant, because what we forget is that the "power-users" make up a very small percentage of the buyers market. However, I really do hope that MS does not forget about us all together. All I know is that come December, I'll be rocking the new WP7 and not an Android. Theres my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is an actual question, not an argument - what are some things WM can do that Android can't? I use my phone for business functionality and I don't consider myself a member of the "general public" and switching to Android after 3 WM phones, I haven't found a single thing (aside from maybe quicker switching between running apps) WM did that Android doesn't.

Steve Balmber retarded?
Hmmmmmm
Limited vocabulary
Edit: WTF!?

He's bat**** effing insane! Thanks for sharing

You guys are jumping the gun on this. At least wait and see how things go before you saying game over for WM and jump ship.
Do you guys ***** that the desktop or laptop or netbook you just purchased cost you $25-50 more because it is running Windows7 compared to Ubuntu or another Linux build? No way!
So why are you going to moan about a measily ~$10 fee on your phone for running WM7. Heck you can probably run a dual boot setup on your WM7 phone to run both Windows and Android to experience the best of both worlds...just like some of us have done with our computers.

DISAPPOINTED in HTC and Windows Phone 7

1- Cannot install any program on my phone such as SSH client I use for work and nothing on the market place.
2- No GPS with direction software.
3- Cannot sync my device with outlook 2010 on my computer.
4- RTL or BIDI languages show character by character and I cannot read websites in those languages.
5- Opera mobile was my choice of surfing the web but now cannot be used.
6- Not much choice of ringtones or themes.
7- I do not want to use any pirated software but this is not what I expected. I feel trapped in Microsoft powered HTC jail and am very concerned about my privacy.
The device works fast, is responsive and neat but I consider not buying HTC mobile products anymore.

wow. you just became an XDA member just to post your rants on HTC?

hmbe said:
1- Cannot install any program on my phone such as SSH client I use for work and nothing on the market place.
2- No GPS with direction software.
3- Cannot sync my device with outlook 2010 on my computer.
4- RTL or BIDI languages show character by character and I cannot read websites in those languages.
5- Opera mobile was my choice of surfing the web but now cannot be used.
6- Not much choice of ringtones or themes.
7- I do not want to use any pirated software but this is not what I expected. I feel trapped in Microsoft powered HTC jail and am very concerned about my privacy.
The device works fast, is responsive and neat but I consider not buying HTC mobile products anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
biernes_atrece said:
wow. you just became an XDA member just to post your rants on HTC?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He's got a valid point but I wouldn't blame HTC. Those problems are on all Windows Phone 7 phones. HTC makes great phones. Buy an Android phone dude. I have the HD7 but I also kept all my Android phones I've bought over the years. My HD7 stays put away in my pocket unless the battery in my Android phone dies or I wanna watch something on Netflix and it will stay in my pocket or put away until HTC/Microsoft/T-Mobile release a MAJOR update to fix or add all the features I need in my phone. I have a feeling it will remain in my pocket for quite some time tho.

biernes_atrece said:
wow. you just became an XDA member just to post your rants on HTC?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is not the point and these are not rants.
If this helps others or points htc/ms to do something, i would again register to post.
8- Battery life is real short. I read somewhere that changing the backgound to full black will improve the battery life and it does but wifi, 3g, screen light and light background are battery killers! I used to have much more battery life on my old diamond 2!

julez456 said:
He's got a valid point but I wouldn't blame HTC. Those problems are on all Windows Phone 7 phones. HTC makes great phones. Buy an Android phone dude. I have the HD7 but I also kept all my Android phones I've bought over the years. My HD7 stays put away in my pocket unless the battery in my Android phone dies or I wanna watch something on Netflix and it will stay in my pocket or put away until HTC/Microsoft/T-Mobile release a MAJOR update to fix or add all the features I need in my phone. I have a feeling it will remain in my pocket for quite some time tho.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your post. To be honest I do not like Google much and think they are not clear about what they do with the information they gather over people and their activities.
Droid phone as you mentiond do have many good points but a lot of my points also applies to phones like desire hd.
I guss it is about users againt big guys or better said being jailled by big guys. Take IPhone as an example. Microsoft mobile was the only one that was not a warden but looks like competition drives them that way. It is a shame. They just do not or do not like to think if they are good the customer will stay with them.

I wonder if there was this much crying when iPhone came out?

JamesDax said:
I wonder if there was this much crying when iPhone came out?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
exactly.... nothing is perfect on birth...everything needs versions and versions...
be it software or hardware...everything will become perfect or nearly perfect in time. ( for example : windows xp was crap , then with sp2 ...BAM!!!)ok nothing else is coming to my head..but you got the idea , right ??
with updates and revised mobile bodies , any mobile can top.,..
just give HTC or MS ( or any other company ) some time for their updates, after they review all the positive negative feedback....

Although you'r a first time poster on XDA, i'm sure your familiar with Forum's in general and forum rules. The main one being READ THE STICKIES AND SEARCH BEFORE POSTING.
All of what you have said has been convered a dozen times and is also consolidated with the other "Features" which the OS is lacking in a Stickie at the top of this forum (here) AND in the WP7 Generic Forum (Here or Here).
As for some of your concerns, why are you concerned about your privacy? Please explain. The "changing the background colour to black" won't help you with an HD7, as it uses an SLCD screen, meaning no matter whether it's white or black, the backlight will still be on. This is only relevant for LED screens where a black screen means the pixels are not illuminate and therefore consuming no power (however when they're white, they consume up to 3x as much power as an LCD screen). My HD7 provides me with about 36 hours of charge, with screen brightness set to auto, and wifi/bluetooth/gsm all turned on. I could go a day and a half without a charge however i've always charged smartphones every night anyway as they all consume alot of power.
Other than that, welcome to the forum. As other's have said, the OS is only 4 months old. Give it time. The features you want will become available sooner or later.

Thanks everyone for your replies.
I know that a lot of my points are posted and discussed in other post but I thought it might be good to put them together as a sort of complaint.
Apple's IPhone mobile OS was new and I can see 3 and 4 share a lot of features. With Google you know that you will have to do syncs online. I had an idea about what he wanted and WP7 was disappointing. However I have to wait and see what will happen after MS and/or HTC work on HD7.
I have to sync my calendar and contacts with my live account and this is a huge lake of privacy in WP7.
Given the fact that I have paid for a lot of apps on my diamond 2 such as SSH client, VoIP softphone, GPS, I thought just like software on my desktop I will be able to use most of them or there will be an upgrade for my HD7 WP7.
I sit crossing my fingers and hope big guys think about users.

Windows Phone 7 is clearly not for you. Return the phone and get something else.

hmbe said:
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I know that a lot of my points are posted and discussed in other post but I thought it might be good to put them together as a sort of complaint.
Apple's IPhone mobile OS was new and I can see 3 and 4 share a lot of features. With Google you know that you will have to do syncs online. I had an idea about what he wanted and WP7 was disappointing. However I have to wait and see what will happen after MS and/or HTC work on HD7.
I have to sync my calendar and contacts with my live account and this is a huge lake of privacy in WP7.
Given the fact that I have paid for a lot of apps on my diamond 2 such as SSH client, VoIP softphone, GPS, I thought just like software on my desktop I will be able to use most of them or there will be an upgrade for my HD7 WP7.
I sit crossing my fingers and hope big guys think about users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dude what do u want??? every one knew what WP7 can and can not do.... u still bought the device and now u are blaming the MS and HTC.... diamond 2 screen and hd 7 screen are two diffrent worlds, size is very diffrent... if you want to save battery, use auto screen brightness, do not push email....

hmbe said:
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I know that a lot of my points are posted and discussed in other post but I thought it might be good to put them together as a sort of complaint.
Apple's IPhone mobile OS was new and I can see 3 and 4 share a lot of features. With Google you know that you will have to do syncs online. I had an idea about what he wanted and WP7 was disappointing. However I have to wait and see what will happen after MS and/or HTC work on HD7.
I have to sync my calendar and contacts with my live account and this is a huge lake of privacy in WP7.
Given the fact that I have paid for a lot of apps on my diamond 2 such as SSH client, VoIP softphone, GPS, I thought just like software on my desktop I will be able to use most of them or there will be an upgrade for my HD7 WP7.
I sit crossing my fingers and hope big guys think about users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, it seems you didn't do enough research before making the jump to Windows Phone 7.
Forget about the phone hardware itself, Windows Phone 7 is a totally different platform than Windows Mobile 6.5 and below. Two totally separate products. Your complaints are not complaints because they are all issues that Microsoft is well aware of and that everyone has discussed before. This is a brand new product, and of course things won't be perfect and won't have all the features you demand.
As for the software you previously purchased, that's not a fault of Microsoft as they did not develop such software. That falls on the developers of your software. They make the decision whether to develop software compatible with Windows Phone 7, and they make the decision to offer you free upgrades or not. That is not something Microsoft can control. So regardless of the platform, when you buy software, you are at the mercy of those developers.
And in regards to your privacy and information through Windows Live, you are not required to sign in with a Windows Live ID. You can skip that part of the setup process and use the basic features of your phone. But you miss out on many of the phone's features of course. So that is totally up to you.

JamesDax said:
I wonder if there was this much crying when iPhone came out?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hellz no! And if there was this much crying nonbody could pull steve jobs' sack out of their face long enough to show you their tears.
I understand the OP's issues... as minor as they are, but sweet Jesus it has been beat to death. Nobody needs empty praise, but the unecessary crying over what amounts to nothing, or temporary shortcomings needs to stop.
Or better yet, it could be worse. Here we're wanting a FREE software update. With apple you'll be waiting till next year to buy a whole new phone so you can get something that another phone has had for the past 5 years.
And with Android (as cool as it is) you may or may not even get the latest/greatest updates.
So... uhh, yeah... g'head and dry those tears Homie.

1. MS not release socket support right now yet til Mango update,so no any ssh apps for sure.
2. I think that from above.
3. Maybe TouchXperience can help you.
youtube.com/watch?v=aAgd-iTBlGs
4...
5. Because of no socket support, any browser must be use an IE engine to communicate web browser, so no need to use an other browser.
6. I think I see this answer in "Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking section".
7. If MS not awaking right now, we have no choice, because we know WP7 is good but not perfect yet, so MS should be hurry up.
I have HD7 too but I'm no comment it's good or not to buy.
Because bought before.. played before.

Thank you all for you posts.
Have to admit that I did not do my homework before buying a HD7.
Having said this, it is not a real excuse just to say WP7 is different to 6.5 and below. It is like you like ice-cream and try to buy one but are presented with yoghurt in the shop and the shop owner says you needed to do a research before asking for ice-cream!
Having said all this, I got an e-mail from HTC that they have forwarded my mail about these point to Microsoft.
It is all up MS what they will decide to do.
Do you think Microsoft decides to take a user point of view into consideration or just like others thinks their new OP is good and will do anything. I guess some of these points will take huge changes to the OS and their marketing plans.
And I should not complain because I had to do more research in advance .

hmbe said:
Thank you all for you posts.
Have to admit that I did not do my homework before buying a HD7.
Having said this, it is not a real excuse just to say WP7 is different to 6.5 and below. It is like you like ice-cream and try to buy one but are presented with yoghurt in the shop and the shop owner says you needed to do a research before asking for ice-cream!
Having said all this, I got an e-mail from HTC that they have forwarded my mail about these point to Microsoft.
It is all up MS what they will decide to do.
Do you think Microsoft decides to take a user point of view into consideration or just like others thinks their new OP is good and will do anything. I guess some of these points will take huge changes to the OS and their marketing plans.
And I should not complain because I had to do more research in advance .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, you are comparing ice cream to yogurt. Two totally different things. It is a very valid excuse. If you like ice cream, then you probably shouldn't have bought yogurt, or at least, done some research on yogurt before you bought it so that you knew what you were getting. You can complain all you like, but yogurt isn't going to change into ice cream because you want it to. They may share similarities, but they are not and will never be the same.
Same goes for Windows Mobile/Windows Phone. Windows Mobile 6.5 and Windows Phone 7 are two different platforms going in the two different directions. Microsoft recognized that one path wasn't going anywhere, so it took a look around and went in a different direction. So Windows Phone 7 may share some similarities to Windows Mobile, but they aren't and probably will never be the same product ever.
Both platforms cater to two different audiences, and if you like Windows Mobile 6.5, that's fine. Stick with it. You just have to realize that it is unfortunately a dead platform and you won't see any further updates. Windows Phone 7 is different and takes new and unique steps to a more cohesive and connected platform, and if you don't like it, the simple solution would be to not buy it.
If you are hoping that Windows Phone will become like Windows Mobile, then you should probably give up hope, as Microsoft has made it clear that this platform is something totally different.

The ice cream owner who sold you yogurt didn't tell you he was giving you yogurt.
Microsoft however, made it clear they are now selling cakes instead of ice creams or yogurt.
If you're still looking for ice cream and yogurt, you went to the wrong shop

biernes_atrece said:
The ice cream owner who sold you yogurt didn't tell you he was giving you yogurt.
Microsoft however, made it clear they are now selling cakes instead of ice creams or yogurt.
If you're still looking for ice cream and yogurt, you went to the wrong shop
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
cute....
those ppl will never stop coming... and some of them dont even have a WP7 device... the best of all they never get disappointed by what they do, just push their short comings to MS and HTC..

biernes_atrece said:
The ice cream owner who sold you yogurt didn't tell you he was giving you yogurt.
Microsoft however, made it clear they are now selling cakes instead of ice creams or yogurt.
If you're still looking for ice cream and yogurt, you went to the wrong shop
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cake?!

Well, I think it also was not clear when I bought my HD7 and MS did not make it clear that no other software but only new ones from market place will work on WP7.
Anyways I own a HD7 and am happy with lots of its features. In some features it rocks compare to Iphone or Android phones.
But are you telling me nothing I say makes sense?

WP7 NoDo update (estimated) schedule posted by Microsoft

Guyz... Just came across this blog where MS is giving some estimated time frame that you can expect the NoDo or Copy/Paste update to your specific device.
This link is specific to the US devices: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/features/update-schedule-usa.aspx
HD7 Device shows up as "Scheduling". They also claim the status would be updated weekly. So go check it out.
This is the link to the Blog: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_.../2011/03/23/copy-and-paste-update-status.aspx

I've been holding it in and am a huge supporter. This isn't going to be constructive at all but, **** MSFT AND THE CARRIERS!! It's MSFT fault either way. If the carriers are delaying release of the updates, then they should have enough nuts to say something and get it done. Hell, show them the predicted results of what happens to your market share when they piddle around and piss off customers. I've been one since I bought my Motorola MPX 220 and Ipaq Pocket PC. I've done nothing but brag about WM since it's inception. Posted facts about WM on my Facebook page to shut up people about Apple and them being the first smartphone. And now I'm just plain fed the **** UP!! Sorry to rant, but I could actually keep going. NO custom ringtones, NO Mass Storage, NO multitasking for an alarm clock that doesn't suck, NO threaded email or single email inbox, NO....you fill in the blank now. And I was excusing all these things due to my faith that MSFT will get with the program pretty quickly. Looks like it's time to fix my HD2's screen or buy a freaking Android phone until MSFT catches up in 2015!

I agree. I am so pissed at the way MS is trying to push this update. If MS can define hardware limitations, they could very well define the update rules to the carriers. I think MS should grow a pair and tell the manufacturers/carriers to push the update all at once its ready.
This is so frustrating. No doubt Apple is the master of delivering the updates. In fact, Apple does not even have to announce a software update, every one knows they can expect one every year in March/April.
I thought MS would have learnt something good when they launched WP7.
"Push updates in Batches" my Ass.

It's MSFT fault either way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You sure about that or are you just itching to point an unnecessary finger at MS??
Hell, show them the predicted results of what happens to your market share when they piddle around and piss off customers. I've been one since I bought my Motorola MPX 220 and Ipaq Pocket PC. I've done nothing but brag about WM since it's inception.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wow... all that and THIS is what gets to you. You waded through all the other stuff, You go back to about 2003 with MS you finally get a FAR SUPERIOR device and this minor wait is doing it??
Come the hell on.
NO custom ringtones, NO Mass Storage, NO multitasking for an alarm clock that doesn't suck, NO threaded email or single email inbox, NO....you fill in the blank now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the rest of us are going to need a life raft just to avoid drowning in your silly-ass tears.
Ya know, I think it's big of MS ot post the fact that the carriers are the ones holding **** up. Who else does that?
If MS can define hardware limitations, they could very well define the update rules to the carriers. I think MS should grow a pair and tell the manufacturers/carriers to push the update all at once its ready.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hold on there pard'ner. You are talking about two VERY different entities. MS, and manufcturers are ALL at the mercy of carriers.
No doubt Apple is the master of delivering the updates. In fact, Apple does not even have to announce a software update, every one knows they can expect one every year in March/April.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... one update a year, then a new phone later that year (or so) and they are "masters" at this?? The ****... seriously?!?
I have a solution for everyone one Apple or Android. But don't forget your hankys 'cuz you will have PLENTY to ***** about there too.
Kthxbye!

Hi Everyone,
Not sure if this has already been posted but here is a schedule for people OUTSIDE the U.S. as well...
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011...pdate-status-carriers-countries-and-devices/#
Not 100% sure on the acuracy of it but I hope it helps...

Sean D. said:
You sure about that or are you just itching to point an unnecessary finger at MS??
wow... all that and THIS is what gets to you. You waded through all the other stuff, You go back to about 2003 with MS you finally get a FAR SUPERIOR device and this minor wait is doing it??
Come the hell on.
I think the rest of us are going to need a life raft just to avoid drowning in your silly-ass tears.
Ya know, I think it's big of MS ot post the fact that the carriers are the ones holding **** up. Who else does that?
Hold on there pard'ner. You are talking about two VERY different entities. MS, and manufcturers are ALL at the mercy of carriers.
So... one update a year, then a new phone later that year (or so) and they are "masters" at this?? The ****... seriously?!?
I have a solution for everyone one Apple or Android. But don't forget your hankys 'cuz you will have PLENTY to ***** about there too.
Kthxbye!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have HD2 running android and have less to complain about then with WP7.
I also have HD7 with half an OS on it. It reminds me it is half an OS as each time I want to do something there is no option for it or it says no.
WP7 has potential but the way it is going that's where it is going to stay till XDA developers hack it.
Name smartphone was invented for a reason, it was to be used with phones that were "smarter" then average mobile. Had plenty of functions where everyone could find what they need. Current range of WP7 phones, Apple phones are a retarded version of smartphone but that only makes it an average phone, just huge!!!

Sean D. said:
So... one update a year, then a new phone later that year (or so) and they are "masters" at this?? The ****... seriously?!?
I have a solution for everyone one Apple or Android. But don't forget your hankys 'cuz you will have PLENTY to ***** about there too.
Kthxbye!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You still haven't made your point.
An update every year to all its zillion+ customer base at once with our any issues irrespective of the carrier, across countries and continents. If they are not masters of this, you let me know the word I can use or you think appropriate.
A tiny-ass copy/paste update (which I'm not even crazy about) is taking them forever to deliver to it's customers. The reason I'm more interested in the update is for the Bluetooth fix and the email pictures fix, which when sent form an iPhone is not received.
An Apple or Android for every one of us? I cannot talk for others, but I've been there done that. Not apple of course (except for the 1st gen phone which I was using it on T-Mobile after unlocking it myself). I currently own a N1, HD2, HD7 (my primary device) and Galaxy S (my wife).
I'm not really sure about your devices experience, but you have lot a lot to say with out any point.

ruscik said:
I have HD2 running android and have less to complain about then with WP7.
I also have HD7 with half an OS on it. It reminds me it is half an OS as each time I want to do something there is no option for it or it says no.
WP7 has potential but the way it is going that's where it is going to stay till XDA developers hack it.
Name smartphone was invented for a reason, it was to be used with phones that were "smarter" then average mobile. Had plenty of functions where everyone could find what they need. Current range of WP7 phones, Apple phones are a retarded version of smartphone but that only makes it an average phone, just huge!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One question - How many times in a week do your reboot your phone or flash a ROM. I'm not asking if you are flashing ROM because there is a new one out there, I'm asking about the times you flash because of the hope the next one would be more usable and stable.
I was done looking for a perfect ROM and fed-up with ROMs that require a reboot every 12 or 24 hrs for them to work with out hanging up. I found the level of stability, usability, functionality and ease with WP7 OS. Thats why I switched. Of course the Apps and Games are a HUGE bonus for me.

VizagDude said:
I agree. I am so pissed at the way MS is trying to push this update. If MS can define hardware limitations, they could very well define the update rules to the carriers. I think MS should grow a pair and tell the manufacturers/carriers to push the update all at once its ready.
This is so frustrating. No doubt Apple is the master of delivering the updates. In fact, Apple does not even have to announce a software update, every one knows they can expect one every year in March/April.
I thought MS would have learnt something good when they launched WP7.
"Push updates in Batches" my Ass.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you actually stopped to think about what you just said, apple can do that because first of all they make their OWN devices (which are extremely overpriced/battery cant be replaced easily if at all) so yeah they can just send out an update, it doesnt have to be test on all of these different manufactured devices. So.........Apple still sucks..........WINDOWS PHONE ALL THE WAY!!!
You guys have to give microsoft a break. It is illogical and unfair to compare a first year company in the new smartphone age to others (apple and android) which have been around for years. Apple and android had really shaky starts too, maybe even worse. Its just an update guys, give microsoft a break on their new and amazing product! NICE JOB MS, keep the magic coming.
=================
Dell Venue Pro 16gb----TMobile(soon to be At&t :/ )

I agree here 100%. I came from WM 6.1 Pro to Android and dont get me wrong... I love my Droid but man did I do alot of *****ing waiting for my FroYo update and for what really? Flash was the biggest upgrade from Eclair and Apps2SD... REALLY??? Apps2SD??? My Omnia i910 could do that right out of the box but I had to wait for an update to do it on my Galaxy S I thought to myself...
This is a similar scenario here and guess what??? *****ing or NO *****ing we still have to wait NO MATTER WHAT!!!
I think MS has done a fantastic job on this OS and although it is lacking some pretty basic functionality as of now, IT WILL COME just like having to wait for Apps2 SD on Android which to me coming from WM 6.1 Pro I thought was pretty basic.
Hold your horses people and let MS do its thing and when this OS begins to mature a bit I have no doubt that it will be an absolute BEAST!!!
gmark7 said:
If you actually stopped to think about what you just said, apple can do that because first of all they make their OWN devices (which are extremely overpriced/battery cant be replaced easily if at all) so yeah they can just send out an update, it doesnt have to be test on all of these different manufactured devices. So.........Apple still sucks..........WINDOWS PHONE ALL THE WAY!!!
You guys have to give microsoft a break. It is illogical and unfair to compare a first year company in the new smartphone age to others (apple and android) which have been around for years. Apple and android had really shaky starts too, maybe even worse. Its just an update guys, give microsoft a break on their new and amazing product! NICE JOB MS, keep the magic coming.
=================
Dell Venue Pro 16gb----TMobile(soon to be At&t :/ )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

If not for the *****ing, we wouldn't even have the schedule they posted in their Blog. If they had took care of informing their customers in a timely manner and with accurate info, no one would've been *****ing. Instead, they were promoting their coming updates and fixes giving vague timings and everyone are frustrated not knowing what and when to expect.
The reason I got this device is because I love the OS. But that does not get away from the fact that they screwed up the update process.

the question now is, how often will ms be updating the website. we need to know cause the updates in the website (for hd7's) says that they are to be scheduled and it says it will take 10 days or less. when will the counting of days start? from the time the website was opened? if this is the case were now down to 7 days of wait time. i think ms needs to start re-labeling the updates. NoDo should be april update not march update

Sean D. said:
You sure about that or are you just itching to point an unnecessary finger at MS??
wow... all that and THIS is what gets to you. You waded through all the other stuff, You go back to about 2003 with MS you finally get a FAR SUPERIOR device and this minor wait is doing it??
Come the hell on.
I think the rest of us are going to need a life raft just to avoid drowning in your silly-ass tears.
Ya know, I think it's big of MS ot post the fact that the carriers are the ones holding **** up. Who else does that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The finger pointing isn't unnecessary. Either they care about making customer's happy (who buy the product) or they can be more concerned about the carriers (which in my case Tmobile) haven't shown that much support for the OS in the first place. And you're right, I waded through all the other stuff because winmo really wasn't that bad if you understood what you were getting. For 2003, viewing movies, listening to mp3's and using Office features on a phone were so cutting edge, that you were willing to deal with the occasional bug, lock up or sometimes slowness of the OS. The only thing they did with WP7 was fix the ugliness,smoothness, and overall stability of the OS. Which is exactly what needed to happen. I applaud them for the fresh start. But, seriously, we're in 2011 now (8 yrs later) and you can't regress so far backwards, and then waste loads of time to re-implement things your previous (and every other OS) does now. I mean, what second or newer iteration of a product have you seen that loses a lot of it's most valuable marketing aspects? And as for my tear being silly. Your disillusioned in your thoughts that you don't need such things as I mentioned. If there was no need for them, then mobile OS's wouldn't have them and no one would care.

kwill said:
The finger pointing isn't unnecessary. Either they care about making customer's happy (who buy the product) or they can be more concerned about the carriers (which in my case Tmobile) haven't shown that much support for the OS in the first place. And you're right, I waded through all the other stuff because winmo really wasn't that bad if you understood what you were getting. For 2003, viewing movies, listening to mp3's and using Office features on a phone were so cutting edge, that you were willing to deal with the occasional bug, lock up or sometimes slowness of the OS. The only thing they did with WP7 was fix the ugliness,smoothness, and overall stability of the OS. Which is exactly what needed to happen. I applaud them for the fresh start. But, seriously, we're in 2011 now (8 yrs later) and you can't regress so far backwards, and then waste loads of time to re-implement things your previous (and every other OS) does now. I mean, what second or newer iteration of a product have you seen that loses a lot of it's most valuable marketing aspects? And as for my tear being silly. Your disillusioned in your thoughts that you don't need such things as I mentioned. If there was no need for them, then mobile OS's wouldn't have them and no one would care.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What do you mean...? They are doing something they NEVER did. They are not only supporting this OS, but addressing it in ways they never have before. I do agree that some things should not have been left out to begin with, IMO it is unacceptable to leave out something as minor as C&P. But they aren't the only ones who did this, and whoever compared them to apple is missing that this minor update is being given away they aren't forcing you to by another device to get it. You said it yourself, MS is not new to this game... hell in most ways they started the smartphone game the way it exists today.
So take a look at the ways Android (one of the OS's everyone claims is doing it right) went about rolling out Froyo. Or look at the fact that Apple is and has been pushing shiney, brand new feature to the masses that were available on my Kaiser in 2007 (front facing camera) or how they are masters at turd polishing.
With that in mind how are they really messing up?
You are seeing MS do things with it that we saw no signs of in 2003 but you feel they are making that big of a mistake?? I urge you to look past the minor crap and look at the overall picture.
There is no way you can logically look at this OS as a whole and see any real regressions. "Imperfections", hell yes. But regressions?? No way. The worst part about this update is that it has been beat to **** so bad that it can only catch negativity at this point. It has been splashed from site to site, and talked about at length... the expectations and anticipations are so high that people can only be let down. Back the hell away from the keyboard and chill out about something so small people.
Please read these links.
http://wmpoweruser.com/editorial-the-continuing-diminishing-return-from-updates/
http://wpcentral.com/fanboy-s-defense-microsoft

Sean D. said:
What do you mean...? They are doing something they NEVER did. They are not only supporting this OS, but addressing it in ways they never have before. ... and whoever compared them to apple is missing that this minor update is being given away they aren't forcing you to by another device to get it. ... There is no way you can logically look at this OS as a whole and see any real regressions. "Imperfections", hell yes. But regressions?? No way. The worst part about this update is that it has been beat to **** so bad that it can only catch negativity at this point. It has been splashed from site to site, and talked about at length... the expectations and anticipations are so high that people can only be let down. Back the hell away from the keyboard and chill out about something so small people.
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They did support windows mobile, there was plenty of new builds just when WP7 project started it wend down. Yes they address update process in a new way but it is a flaud way. What testing carriers need to do? I mean FFS they put their own picture and search engine in, that is it.
I agree MS is more concerned about keeping o2, Tmobile or other carrier happy and as per normal do not care about ned user. We paid for this device and we should get an update ASAP bypassing carriers. Apple 3gs runs software of apple 4 and I think apple 3g also so no they do not force you to buy new device.
Also as said before all apple users get update from apple on apple rules and apple does not care about carriers.
You say you can not look at this OS as regression, you say update is doomed to fail due to high expectations that will never be fulfilled. Did you stop to think where are those expectations coming from. It is only normal to compare new OS to old one to see the upgrades, advantages. With WP7 there is only one smooth interface. People expect the same fitures that were in windows mobile, that all other OS makers copied. C&P, internet sharing, portable storage mode are just few big ones that MS ignored?! Why?! Why there is still no GPS software, it seems no big makers want to make one, that can only be Microsoft fault and do not tell me they care about customers because then they would be insisting for TomTom or copilot do one to complete their platform.

The only things I have read about other Nav software has been sketchy. And one of the reasons (real or not) is because they don't want to compete with whatever Bing updates are coming (whenever that is).
Not sure if its legit or not, but I saw it somewhere.
I will say that seeing Bing be so far superior on the other platforms is horse ****. If they want to do any one thing to make me more satisfied that would be it. Beyond that, as important as the update is I'm not going to cry about it taking this long.
Especially if it has to do with the carriers.

Bing navigation is **** that is it. It might work for US where significant number of people never leave US. However here in Europe, rest of the world as well people take their cars/bikes abroad and want to use GPS. Data roaming costs more then brick of gold so sorry that makes any online navigation ****.
I will not even mention fact that if you have basic gprs connection (the slowest) navigation will not work for sudden change of roads.

I have the dell venue pro TMo US. Just received my pre-nodo and nodo update today. I love you microsoft. Hope this fixes the wifi issue. No problems so far.

I've updated my HD7 to NoDo via the process of disconnecting data while Zune is checking for the update. Worked like a charm. I did this yesterday, couldn't rely on MS anymore to add my device to their batch process. The update is out there approved by most of the carriers. MS is the one that's limiting the update through whatever criteria within the Zune.
Sent from my HD7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

Maybe it's time for you to adandon MS all together. Chances are you'll be *****ing about them from here on out so why put yourself through it?
Maybe I'm mising something but I figure by now if it was ALL MS's fault more carriers would have pointed fingers back at them just to save face f nothing else, right?

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