Database Develop

To All You Guys Nagging Us To Provide Links For Wm6 Rom

I have noticed that many people ask us (that allready got the ROM) to provide download-links, and even mail it to you.
You have to understand that we cannot provide all new readers with that same info over and over.
If you read the two posts:
WM6 rom for wizard: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=289799
and
about the crossbow wwe leak: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=290277
you can easily figure out yourself how to get hold of it!
It's in your own best interest.
Even people here are helpful, all the post like "wm6 for me too plzzzzz mail it to [email protected]in" is quite irritating.
So "noobs" - please read those above posts carefully, and you wil figure out how to download it yourself!
Best regards
HansMarius

this is probably the best thread ever made

I guarantee you someone will come in here and ask for a link to it...
This is part of a big problem with mobile phone message boards I've seen across all makes and models.
Newbies come in asking hundreds of the same exacty question over and over and over again all because they're too lazy to figure it out for themselves like we all had to before them.
</rant>
I don't mind helping people out, but when it's something simple, easy, or has been discussed to extreme length here, it is extremely frustrating.

message to members and senior members:
guys be careful who you give the crossbow link to. remember that noobs rarely read threads and take the time to know what you have to do before flashing a rom. so to avoid the hundreds of threads about noobs bricking their phone lets just use our discretion on giving out those links.

I propose the opposite, give links willy nilly, let them brick, and then let them learn at cost.
Anyone who posts info about flashing Crossbow, please always pre-pend with a disclaimer to the effect that it will cause sterility and permanent flaccidity.
None of these roms are retail AFAIK. Side-effects will occur.
V

I to gave willing away links over PM a couple a days ago, but now i'm getting pretty frustrated because it takes up to much of my time tom answer.
This post was never intended as a "****ing noobs" post, but they (yes YOU) must understand that this takes up to much of our time, and we must use our precious time to set up our phones properly after we flashed the WM6 ROM;-)

Wow!
It took me a whopping 2 minutes to find the rom... Not that I actually downloaded it or anything...
But let's say that I did download the thing... And it were to happen to install just fine on my 8125... I think that I too, would rather spend time installing things like a camera proggie, and the odds and ends that a plain vanilla rom such as this probably doesn't contain... than to waste precious time responding to the non-existent requests for it's location...
I'd even bet that M$ might even put a "windows update" button in there somewhere just to tease us... Probably just tattles on ya tho... Anyone that HAS been brave enough to click on the "update" button capture what is going out? where the request goes? what the request contains? (I'll bet it just comes back with "no updates available" tho...)
Sure, it's easy to say "let the n00bs brick their phone"... Can't we all just get along? Don't be haters... Yeah, right... What the hell do I know... I'm just a n00b myself, but at least I'm a n00b that knows how to read, and tries to spend time actually reading the forums before making an @$$ out of myself...
Just my .02
PT

I Agree with vijay555 to give them the links BUT AT THEIR OWN RISK
Let them make a SmartBrick

i know it's kinda cool to have the latest and greatest, but what's the point if you are to make your super expensive machine into a mega-expensive paper-weight... doesn't really make any sense though...

Rumor has it that Microsoft secretly *WANTS* these ROMS to be leaked and tested by the phone geeks.
They allow Vista to be officially tested but it would be too difficult to go through any program like that - especially given the nature of how the OS is loaded.
Who better to test them, discover patches and fixes, and give pros and cons then the phone nerds. It also drums up interest for those who don't flash ROMS all the time. Do you realize how many major phone websites are already publishing Crossbow articles based on the leaked ROMS? You think Microsoft dislikes the publicity?
Apple went ape-**** because someone was using the pictures they provide on their website for free. Why do you think there has been ZERO comments from Microsoft when an OS is leaked 6 months early?
By the way, when you provide a link for a lossless photo of the icons on the homescreen of a yet to be released phone, people are going to download it:
http://images.apple.com/movies/us/pr/photos/iphone/iphone_home.tif.zip
I was able to turn that picture into all the icons needed in under 5 minutes. Thank God I hate Apple so much I'd never use them!
-Mc

Please send all WM6 rom requests to [email protected]! lol

McHale:
Why do you think there has been ZERO comments from Microsoft when an OS is leaked 6 months early?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That comment isn't correct. Microsoft has contacted this board and asked for the roms to be removed. Very politely I might add. I have every respect for them for that.
Regarding the rumour that Microsoft wants their roms to be leaked, well rumour has it that Kate Moss wants me to eat sushi off her naked body. As much as I would like to believe it to be true, it's unlikely and probably a self-serving reflection of my own inner desires. She probably wouldn't want me slobbering over her after enjoying Adonis, Pete Doherty, and likewise, I doubt Microsoft is short of beta testers when they have their entire body of employees to test for them.
We're just freeloaders... but resourceful and dedicated
V

vijay555 said:
That comment isn't correct. Microsoft has contacted this board and asked for the roms to be removed. Very politely I might add. I have every respect for them for that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's very cool. I got the rumor information from a couple Microsoft Reps who were at my company when we were discussing corporate licensing and the future of OS's (including mobile). Sales guys...
Regarding the rumour that Microsoft wants their roms to be leaked, well rumour has it that Kate Moss wants me to eat sushi off her naked body. As much as I would like to believe it to be true, it's unlikely and probably a self-serving reflection of my own inner desires. She probably wouldn't want me slobbering over her after enjoying Adonis, Pete Doherty, and likewise, I doubt Microsoft is short of beta testers when they have their entire body of employees to test for them.
We're just freeloaders... but resourceful and dedicated
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you know, I heard that second rumor as well but I could have sworn it was me and not you and it wasn't Sushi... it was sausage pizza.
Man that would burn...
-Mc

that's very cool. I got the rumor information from a couple Microsoft Reps who were at my company when we were discussing corporate licensing and the future of OS's (including mobile). Sales guys...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man if we'd known that, we could have "facilitated" a leak quite some time back! A lot of people have been sitting on the roms for a while AFAIK.
sausage pizza
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chipolata or Cumberland?!
V

I will say it again though. I think Microsoft has been very cool about us playing with the WM6 ROM and not getting Apple-sue happy. They've also been cool about us cooking custom ROMS with bits and pieces from all of them.
With as often as many of us upgrade Windows Mobile devices, this only encourages most of us to buy the next device that has it pre-installed. It won't keep many of us from upgrading because we have the new OS.
If it would make MS happy, I'm sure most of us would be happy to take part in a Beta program and report our findings as well as fixes (though they are all here on XDA if they take the time to read).
And as I stated days ago, let's not do anything that jeopardizes this fine forum or any of us on here. If MS says stop, we should take it someplace else.
-Mc

I entirely agree with you.
I was doing some work with some obscure Microsoft APIs yesterday, and as much as people love to shoot them down and whatever, we reap the rewards of the incredible amount of work that goes into supporting functions that we may never even get to use!
I specifically chose to use the phone I do because I can rip it apart software/ROM wise.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=287178#post1082343
Keep up the good work, one and all. Hack away!
V

True that
I don't do much posting but I have to agree with you guys. M$ can put the hurt on the board/forum really fast. Why not have a semi-approving Uncle and not create another "Napster" situation. M$ wants all the info they can get without the attitudes. Agree ????

Need driver specialist who can describe Kaiser problem in detail

I've found a couple of companies that specialize in developing drivers for handheld devices, one of them is particulary interesting as it has done exactly what we're looking for before. I need someone who can talk to them and get them all the details and specs.
Here's the correspondence so far:
Me to them:
'm writing on behalf of HTC Kaiser owners. It's pretty much well
known to whoever is interested in PDAs that HTC has shipped many of its
recent devices without proper video drivers. They have a Qualcomm chipset
with (reportedly) ATI Imageon hardware acceleration in it, but not enabled
or not properly used. We've collected a good sum of money to get those
drivers developed, and I wanted to ask whether your company can help us with
this. More info (including specifics of the problem) can be found here:
http://www.htcwiki.com/page/HTC+TyTN+II+Driver+Issues and here:
www.htcclassaction.org Please let me know whether you can help us with that
and we can talk about compensation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They answered:
Thank you for contacting ALT Software.
We would be happy to discuss your requirements with you. As you may be
aware, ALT has been developing software driver solutions for our clients for
over 13 years now. Our team has extensive experience in creating system and
embedded level software. In fact ALT supports a variety of ATI chips within
our own OpenGL product line, as well as having been engaged by AMD/ATI on
other software development projects enabling new chips for the HDTV and set
top box industry.
ALT definitely has the ability to support your group; however the key
component that may be lacking is access to the hardware specifications,
registry specs for the chip, and existing driver source from ATI & Qualcomm.
Does your group have access to those specifications? Without that
information, it would make the task monumental.
Are you able to provide me with a ballpark on the budget your group has set
aside for this work?
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Thanks,
Rob
Robert ********* - Sales Manager
ALT Software Inc.
****************
****************
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've answered:
Thanks for getting back to us.
Here's the basic info on the chipset: http://www.qualcomm.com/press/releases/2006/060404_sampling_msm7200_chipset.html
There are a lot of senior developers in the community, I'm sure I can get more details on the problem and about the chipset from them. HTC also promised to release some kind of a fix for video rendering that may help you.
So far we've collected over $4000 for this, and if more is needed - I'm sure people will pile in more as they will see that someone is working on it.
Let me get some people who know drivers better than me so that we can provide better details.
In the meantime, let me know what the price range for this could be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I covered the contact info so that he doesn't get swarmed with descriptions. We need to keep this at a reasonable level. I will give his email and phone to however decides to handle this.

Wow, cool man. I'm just afraid we don't have enough specs from HTC to get the project going...

That's where the money come in. I just need someone who can talk hardware to these guys and figure out the details.

Good legwork. I would think a company like this would want to charge at least 50-100k considering the impact. But I could be WAY off(hopefully). You may want to mention to them the high profile this issue has gotten and that they could potentially come out of all of this as hero's and get a lot of good publicity which may add a lot of value instead of cash...

Yeah I was just thinking about that. We could use publicity.
So far however, they want to know the extent of the problem.. They wanna know how much work is needed (understandably). That's why I need someone who has whatever info we can possibly have about this.

bump this...important.

DarkDvr said:
Yeah I was just thinking about that. We could use publicity.
So far however, they want to know the extent of the problem.. They wanna know how much work is needed (understandably). That's why I need someone who has whatever info we can possibly have about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your best bet is Chainfire. Have you PM'd him?

Well, they are looking for a job that's $20K+, large scale projects. I tried to persuade them with publicity and ease of the project... but they declined.
However, they recommended finding someone on scguild.com.
I'll try that today...
If anybody has any leads - let us know.

Perhaps we should consider taking this approach
Show this company figures that represent the number of units the Kaiser and its variations have shown.
Let them know we will raise money up front to get them started.
Let them know they can make money by charing fro a fix and give them the numbers to back it up.
For example:
If 1 million people (and I read here at xda that it is in fact more than that, but I DO NOT KNOW) have bought the Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II etc etc etc and only 5% of the purchasers buy a fix at lets say $20 then they stand to make $250,000 in addition to whatever start up costs we can give them.
If we get this (or another) company to commit to doing this, and we get an upfront number they require to start the development, then we have a solid goal. We then start a campaign not only at xda, but worldwide, involve the media who has covered this story. The media entities who have covered this to date, have a great follow up story. This in turn gets the coverage needed to show them enough people will buy the fix after development.
For example, they might say "We will be willing to develop this for $XXXXX upfront if outlets exist where we can be assured there is DISTRIBUTION for the fix.
We then have a goal:
Start a world wide campaign to raise the upfront costs.
Secure distribution at every pocket pc software sales site we can contact.
They just might go for it.
That is a lot of money!
Money talks. Publicity seems like a good idea, but they want cash. Show them this is but one way of how to get it!!!!!!

mrmega said:
Perhaps we should consider taking this approach
Show this company figures that represent the number of units the Kaiser and its variations have shown.
Let them know we will raise money up front to get them started.
Let them know they can make money by charing fro a fix and give them the numbers to back it up.
For example:
If 1 million people (and I read here at xda that it is in fact more than that, but I DO NOT KNOW) have bought the Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II etc etc etc and only 5% of the purchasers buy a fix at lets say $20 then they stand to make $250,000 in addition to whatever start up costs we can give them.
If we get this (or another) company to commit to doing this, and we get an upfront number they require to start the development, then we have a solid goal. We then start a campaign not only at xda, but worldwide, involve the media who has covered this story. The media entities who have covered this to date, have a great follow up story. This in turn gets the coverage needed to show them enough people will buy the fix after development.
For example, they might say "We will be willing to develop this for $XXXXX upfront if outlets exist where we can be assured there is DISTRIBUTION for the fix.
We then have a goal:
Start a world wide campaign to raise the upfront costs.
Secure distribution at every pocket pc software sales site we can contact.
They just might go for it.
That is a lot of money!
Money talks. Publicity seems like a good idea, but they want cash. Show them this is but one way of how to get it!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldnt personally like to see us lot cooking roms.

Good idea, I like it.
I'm not giving up - still searching and spamming developers who would be interested in this. If anybody else googles driver development companies - that'd make it easier and faster for us all.
I've got a good description of the problem (thanks Chainfire) which you can use to describe the problem:
"The problem with the current drivers is that they essentially just dump the completely software rendered screen on to the display memory, and that's pretty much all they do. Direct3D and OpenGL ES drivers are missing completely.
No use is made of any sort of acceleration that is provided by the ATI Imageon technology used in these Qualcomm MSM7200/MSM7500 based devices.
What we want are GDI / DDI, DirectDraw/3D, OpenGL ES and GAPI drivers that do make use of the available hardware acceleration."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

thefunkygibbon said:
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldnt personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All we need is 1 ROM with proper drivers in it. Everything else is easy.

however the key component that may be lacking is access to the hardware specifications, registry specs for the chip, and existing driver source from ATI & Qualcomm.
I'm not a pro, but isn't that just the problem??
That's just what's needed, and no one seems to have it. (Or is willing to provide)

$20 000 is not that much. Thats just $20 from 1000 people.
Imagine selling the driver for $20. Way more than 1000 people would buy it. I dont think this amount of money needs to be an obstacle.
Surur

Er...
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TELL THEN HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE!!!!!
Geez people!
You ALWAYS ASK A PRICE QUOTE AND THEN HAGGLE!!!!
They say, so you got 4k... we want 10k+
BUT
if you ask a price range, they dont know how much we have, and then cant ask double for it. Understand?
Time to start with a new company...

Hehe, well these guys' problem was not really the money, it was the volume as he himself said.
His words:
"Unfortunately, ALT will have to decline this scope.
You may have better luck looking to a individual contractor boards such as www.scguild.com."
But point taken. I've ran through that website and wrote to many potential graphics driver developers... we'll see what they say.

thefunkygibbon said:
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldn't personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only suggested my idea because we are talking about a 3rd party developing this for us, not HTC. I am not a developer so I don't know how the fix would be applied so please forgive my lack of understanding of how the fix needs to be applied.
If it is a driver, and the devs here would have to cook it into a rom or roms then maybe we are only paying for the driver.
All I can say is that we have a goal, and if HTC wont give give us what we need, and if none of the developers here can succeed then we we have to consider resorting to going to a 3rd party company to develop the solution.
A 3rd party company is only going to be interested in the $$$. I can only speak for myself, but if my choices are to have no drivers or to pay for them... I, like everyone else who pledged to the bounty thread will GLADLY pay to get this issue fixed.
Do I want to pay? NO! HTC should have given this to us but they did not so I don't know what else to suggest.

How about these:
http://www.pfaadtsoft.de/
Here's some stuff I found on MSDN:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890622.aspx
I haven't bothered reading it but the title looked interesting
This section in general might hold interesting info:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447511.aspx

undac said:
How about these:
http://www.pfaadtsoft.de/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
good find, email sent.
Here's some stuff I found on MSDN:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890622.aspx
I haven't bothered reading it but the title looked interesting
This section in general might hold interesting info:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447511.aspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's to whoever understands driver better than me.

I'd be willing to chip in a good amount. Was already looking into other companies fixing the problem, but they would need a lot of information that only Qualcomm and HTC have. :\

Rom-on-demand

Honorable Chefs - distinguished consumers.
www.romondemand.com/org has been registered as a strategic decision elaborating the feasibility of providing personalized Rom's to end-consumers.
The idea generated by reading to many times "can you include this' - "can you remove that" etc
So, why not offering personalized - tailor made ROM's ? Customer creates a wish-list on the webpage - available Chef -in his domain of expertise receives the order - constructs - customer downloads - Chef follow-up. Chef gets paid - happy customer with own ROM.
Simply presented, I know, but got to start somewhere no?
Would like to know the opinion of the Chef's on this idea. PM me to elaborate further on together if this is tempting or not.
And whoever thinks that a personalized ROM is crap is free to flame - punch me. I own the idea. Stupid or clever as it is.

good idea but i don't think most of the chefs here cook roms as a profession. Most of them simply do it because its a hobby and invest their time into it. If they wanted money i am sure they wouldn't post their hardwork here for others to steal

nothing wrong with that I guess. Use your skills to pay the bills

I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!

bengalih said:
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for a legal stance you'd technically be selling your service rather than the rom itself seeing it is a customization.

CUSTEL said:
As for a legal stance you'd technically be selling your service rather than the rom itself seeing it is a customization.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes but you'd still be breaking HTC/AT&T/MS property rights. Again, it's a grey area...just like all of us here freely distributing them.
I don't think selling them is any worse (since you would be selling the service), but it's stil grey... and anytime money is involved it can be higher profile.

Custel , you made some valid points, though it would not be the intention to steel without authorization already cooked ROM's.
I would either see it as a Chefs-united platform where stock ROM's are used and tweaked - within the legal bounderies.
No, a MS VC would not be added for free and if so, royalties would be paid to MS.
Same counts for applic's such as coreplayer etc.
A matter of how the negotiations will go with those guys.
Purpose is for them to understand that we can integrate officialy their soft at a minimum price avoiding that plenty d-load them somewhere onon-officialy.
I do not see loosers within this set-up (yet)

No misunderstanding !
Benghali wrote : 2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
I would not even touch these ROMS and they will even not be on the website.
It would be the Chef's whom are jumping in which start with a Vanilla base and customize the ROM on demand (Customer can provide desired wallpaper - list a wich of soft - tweaks - cabs etc whatever his level of PDA understanding is)
So, no, the ROM's made by the CHEF's would not be simply refurbished.
(as this never ever happens among the chefs neither )

ceevee369 said:
Custel , you made some valid points, though it would not be the intention to steel without authorization already cooked ROM's.
I would either see it as a Chefs-united platform where stock ROM's are used and tweaked - within the legal bounderies.
No, a MS VC would not be added for free and if so, royalties would be paid to MS.
Same counts for applic's such as coreplayer etc.
A matter of how the negotiations will go with those guys.
Purpose is for them to understand that we can integrate officialy their soft at a minimum price avoiding that plenty d-load them somewhere onon-officialy.
I do not see loosers within this set-up (yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just pointing out that I made all those original posts, Custel was just quoting me. But, more importantly...you talk about doing thing within "legal boundaries."
There are no legal boundaries for cooking ROMs. It is against all HTC/MS/AT&T licensing agreements to decompile, modify, and redistribute their code (and for profit nonetheless!).
You seem to be approaching this as a legitimate business venture where you will pay royalties to various manufacturers. I don't want to put down your idea, but unless you have some major connections at some very big corporations, this idea would not even be entertained.
Anything you do would pretty much be regulated fully by yourself. MS isn't going to license VC command to you. Other smaller software companies may play along, but to be honest such a licensing structure for an endeavor like this probably is overkill.
You also seem to be thinking of not just making these ROMs yourself, but brokering it out to multiple chefs who will be taking orders. Again, it could work, but is ambitious to lay out a structure like this.
Again, I like your idea...I just don't know how realistic it is based on the amount of transactions you would be performing. And, please remember if you actually achieved such a structure, your site and services would surely be put out there and would draw attention from the major vendors who would probably investigate and send you cease-and-desists. Remember, the whole act of cooking and distibuting copyrighted ROMs is not withing the agreements of the vendors.

bengalih said:
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not too mention that Dutty, & a few other chef's remove all the RGU's. So unless the creator is the one helping you, prepare to spend a lot of time digging out the defunct dsm files from the rom.
I think it's an okay, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people that are clueless about this stuff & still want things there way, but you hardly own the idea. The idea is what gave birth to this forum, & if you have been here for any length of time you'll see that people here have in some instances paid others to make or customize roms for them in the past.
I also don't think you'll get away with charging much for your "Service", as the hard work, all the coding, was already done by MS & HTC. Thinking that you'd get MS to sanction this is wishful. Remember, MS at one point stopped XDA from distributing their roms, & one of the big reasons it turns it's head today is because of all of the free bug fixes & beta testing they get out of this community. If your just selling roms, ahem...services, then you'll likely not be any source of needed data for them & there will be no reason to let you keep going at it.
Customizing already customized roms gets even grayer, because now you have artwork & custom icons that were created by members specifically for certain chefs, i.e. Collinssc frequently does custom art for Dutty's roms.
Again, there is a lot of stuff to work thru here, & several are pretty serious, such as licensing that already prohibits distribution, not to mention all of the required technical support & while you can use all the disclaimers in the world, that won't stop someone from sueing you when their device bricks. Take a look at all of the cooked rom threads, some have thousands upon thousands of little bug complaints, that adds up to a lot of hours when you have made a lot of individual changes to a rom & it's not always the chef that comes up with the solution for the bugs. I personally never used a Dutty rom because I couldn't use MediaNet & BBC at the same time, but I wanted to, so I disected several ROM's & found the issue & the fix. Same with certain roms & TCPMP. Multiply these issues by the number of each user personal taste in apps &, well you see my point.
I'm a red blooded capitalist thru & thru, so I say go for it, but there'll be no easy money made here. It'll take a lot of time to get any coordinated effort involving so many variables off & running. Good luck.

It's a shame this idea has been shot down already because I wanted to know how much it was going to cost. Hell, I have three other friends that would be interested in buying a ROM. Sometimes, people would rather hire someone with experience.

bennyj71 said:
It's a shame this idea has been shot down already because I wanted to know how much it was going to cost. Hell, I have three other friends that would be interested in buying a ROM. Sometimes, people would rather hire someone with experience.
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Click to collapse
the idea still lives but needs further investigation and I want to know the Chef's view on this first.
Will come back with more news.
i already found Taiwanese web builder understanding the complexity but thinks it is more than feasible to build a platform fitting the needs.

How's it legal?

I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks

Yeah, there's a line there somewhere. I think.

Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......

atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AFAIK there is a kind of morality behind it - if you can buy the software, and you are using it for free, its considered Warez.
If you cant buy the software then its considered that you are not taking food from anyone's mouth, and its tolerated.
Of course you could say you are reducing the competitive advantage of the other devices e.g. taking Omnia's widgets and moving it to a HTC Touch Diamond, and thats when things get messy, but I think this is generally how its seen and how it works.
Surur

If it's HTC software and you're using it for an HTC phone, it's asssumed that it's licensed for use on your device and acceptable. A bit of a stretch, but HTC has never, to my knowledge, requested that files be removed from XDA-Devs servers, so there seems to be tacit permission or simply active non-enforcement.
Same for AT&T appz &c if it's an AT&T phone or you're using their service, I suppose (likewise for other carriers and their apps).
If a software being distributed is a redistribution of a freeware (which should have allowed for redistribution in the freeware license), it's acceptable. As well, sharewares should not come preregistered or with serials or any means to circumvent proper registration and doing so or requesting such things gets posts deleted and accounts banned.
So that applies to non-OS/OEM/Carrier apps distributed in ROMs.
Because of various reasons (e.g. the fact that WinMo never really took off as much as Bill & Co. would have liked, and because OEMs and carriers don't want to spend money to license and prepare distributions of the WinMo OS thereby making customers less likely to invest in soon-to-be-obsolete devices, and I like to think a bit of respect for the hackers who manage to port and distro better ROMs than the carriers and OEMs), Bill & Co have decided not to send their anti-piracy witch hunters after WinMo ROMs. It is actively NOT enforced. (Different meaning from 'not actively enforced' and that's intentional.)
Because of the greyness in this area you will notice that no MS products are hosted on XDA-Dev servers.
However, to allay any fears on your part, if your OEM or carrier has provided version n of an OS, or released a free upgrade, or you have paid for a ROm upgrade for your phone's model, your hardware is licensed to use that version.
So, if you are truly worried about breaching laws that aren't, in fact, being enforced, do not upgrade to an OS version not distributed by your carrier/OEM or that has not been licensed as free.
I personally think that while the developer of WinMo turns one eye blind to these activities, the porting of WinMo versions to different hardwares is something they keep their other eye on closely as it's to their advantage and an area of activity and innovation that they probably exploit. Because they aren't stupid.
Does that make things clearer for anyone?
P.S.
I should disclose that I am not, in fact, qualified as a legal counsellor or a lawyer. I only play one on TV.
;-)

IIRC, the thought is "If the software is offered already in the shipped ROM, it's paid for and OK. As long as that ROM is ported in whole to another device." I believe the mods look down upon pulling 3rd party software from ROM's to use in another ROM that the software was not originally offered.
I believe that's the general consensus, though I may be wrong.

from legal stand point. nothing that is done here is considered as stealing. Consider this , you use linux an open source format. you can modify to accomdate your needs. which these tools are suppled from the linux distributer. Or it is like adding speakers and a good radio to your new car how ever you want to look at it.

atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the software can be ripped out of a stock rom from AT&T, etc, then it can be shared here. If it is software you must buy, like the maps for tomtom, then you cannot post them here. You can rip the tomtom software from an AT&T rom, so it's posted here. You must buy the maps, so they're not. Does that help a little?

91004 said:
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
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it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.

scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
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hello, just my opinion scotchua, but when it first read 91004 post and then the "smile" or grin posted, it made me laugh. had he not posted a "smile" or had he instead used this symbol "" ie sarcastic, then i think it would have been inappropriate. again just my opionion and i do value all the time you have invested here at XDA-Developers,
@91004 , welcome to XDA-Developers, this place is addicting and it rocks
thanks
Lupe

scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
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Click to collapse
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much

by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
If you post GameShoe#124 - well... everyone here is not ensured to have a license for the game. If the game is not a trial/freeware program, or otherwise checking to ensure you paid for the license to use it (such as a key).. then you're distributing content that is not owned or licensed & available to you.

BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
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Click to collapse
Well, here's something to think about then: I could get a number of WM 6.1 ROMs as an upgrade to my WM 6 Kaiser but checking HTC's official site, there are no upgrades offered for my IMEI #. If we go strictly by the rules, the availability of WM 6.1 for me could be considered warez. On the other hand, tolerating this kind of relatively harmless behavior would certainly boost an OS's popularity.
In fact, one of the main reasons for my choosing HTC WM was the availability of these great number of ROMs, migrating from UIQ3.
There is a fine line, my definition would be: as long as the specific post does not have a negative financial impact on sales, it should be allowed.

91004 said:
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My point is simply that it was unfortunate that your first post is to get a dig in on the moderators' objectivity. When you know how much people complain about them and to them for doing a mostly thankless job, which they get no compensation for i might add, you'll understand why I don't think those type of comments are funny. I definitely understand that not all jokes are taken in the light in which they were intended; however, some jokes are best left unsaid. I certainly won't hold it against you as, just like you, i'm merely sharing my opinion.

BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you haven't. The device was licensed for use with the M$ product by the OEM. That license is restricted to a specific version, or versions on specific hardware
When the OEM or Carrier licenses an OS or an OS update that they are allowed to distribute, there is still an End User Licensing Agreement, and people have to read them to know what is allowed.
When one of our amazing XDA chefs cooks up a ROM or a new OS or a significant OS update and you install it on a device for which distribution was not licensed, this is warez. Read the EULA if in doubt.
Again, that's why XDA doesn't actually host those ROMs. Maybe official ROMs, but not hacked/ported ROMs.
However, it is currently an M$ policy to not enforce what is essentially warez distribution of the Win-Mobile OS. So I wouldn't worry about getting arrested or sued for installing one of these ROMs.
If M$ does decide to enforce, they don't go after the end users but the people distributing. So, end users, relax.
If you feel ethically bound to comply with EULAs and copyright laws, then you need to not use cooked ROMs that your device isn't licensed for or that the EULA doesn't permit you to use.
If you feel that laws that aren't enforced, or are unenforceable, are non-effective or lapsed, then you should do as your conscience directs you to do and be sure to stand up for yourself in court if lleh freezes over and M$ decides to enforce (and please do blog about it, I'll paypal you $5 bucks for your defence fund).
If you're a red-blooded rum-sodden pirate, you should say "Aaargh!" and do what you're going to do because you'd do it anyway.
Just please respect XDA Dev's policies whatever you choose to do and don't mess up a good thing.
BTW:
There is a policy listed in the site Rules or FAQ, so just read that and if you don't like it, don't leave angry, but please leave.
If you don't understand legal aspects and want to ask about it, PM the mods or admins and ask respectfully.
You can even PM me, but I cannot speak for XDA, I can only explain some legal basics and even then, my knowledge is based more in constitutional and criminal law.
I do think that threads like these call attention to the topic and it's best not to stir the pot, or rock the boat (pick your own metaphor of choice) and call the wrong kind of attention to the issues.
I'd like to see this thread closed down.

Exitao said:
...snip...
... don't leave angry, but please leave.
...snip...
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HEY! That's my line.
Your Wish Is Granted.
Thread Closed The Answer Has been given in this thread.
@91004, Honestly I laughed at your joke too.

I'll close the thread then
Dave

DaveShaw said:
I'll close the thread then
Dave
Click to expand...
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D'oh! Message to the Kids: Don't drink and Moderate.

Why this GREAT forum just can not help those GREAT freeware makers a better life?

Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
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Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?

First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.

Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.

Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.

Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.​
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!

Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.

Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
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Click to collapse
Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.