Database Develop

An Open Letter to Microsoft - Let us develop WM6 please

Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1

cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.

Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.

Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.

What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!

!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.

My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.

I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?

pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.

jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!

pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.

texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.

Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.

rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.

I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.

It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??

ROM cooking legalities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/pda/2009/apr/29/apple-itunes
Just read this earlier about Apple trying to remove information on a wiki page about bypassing itunes and using other software to sync your phone.
I found a particular quote at the bottom quite interesting. A senior Intellectual property attorney said…
"Wikis and other community sites are home to many vibrant discussions among hobbyists and tinkerers. It's legal to engage in reverse engineering in order to create a competing product, it's legal to talk about reverse engineering, and it's legal for a public wiki to host those discussions."
This made me think about a recent thread on ROM upgrading and cooking where users had repeatedly tried to get a straight answer from Microsoft as to whether it was legal or not. A recent interview had mentioned something along the lines of not being able to live with or without the community who partake in ROM cooking.
So is the process moving out of the grey zone? Is it infact perfectly legal?
BANE

Hi
Thank you for the information, very interesting ....

BANE said:
I found a particular quote at the bottom quite interesting. A senior Intellectual property attorney said…"Wikis and other community sites are home to many vibrant discussions among hobbyists and tinkerers. It's legal to engage in reverse engineering in order to create a competing product, it's legal to talk about reverse engineering, and it's legal for a public wiki to host those discussions."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's just an opinion. An attorney does not decide what is legal. Let's not be naive here. I guess every intellectual property attorney would disagree with his opinion that "reverse engeenering" without approval of the legal onwer of the product is legal. The language in the quote is not what an "intellectual property attorney" would use to argue. Whether a discussion is "vibrant" is legally completely irrelevant, and so is the reference to "communities".

by opening the box and powering on the phone we are somewhere agreeing to EULA which somewhere in fineprint will have forbidden reverse engineering,

there was something about this from Microsoft when the 6.5 beta ROM was out and some (fake) MS guy sent out warnings not to distribute those ROMs a couple of months back... then HTC / Microsoft essentially stated they didn't mind ROM cooking.
This stuff has been discussed for ages. Read this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294142
and this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=492760
and of course most importantly, these, which show that MS and HTC take a neutral (ie. they don't mind) stance to Rom cooking:
http://www.duttythroy.net/component/content/article/35-romnews/172-microsoft-and-htc-say-ok-to-xda-developers.html
(non-english)
http://tweakers.net/nieuws/59043/microsoft-xda-developers-illegaal-maar-we-pakken-ze-niet-aan.html
Phew! Now can ppl stop raising these posts and do a SEARCH? I just typed in "6.5 rom legal ok" and "rom legal" and came up with loads of links....

The 6.5 issue with microsoft and htc is the other occurance i was referring to.
I started the thread as I thought I had found something interesting and perhaps new... It wasn't my intention to simply ask is it legal, but perhaps add some info to the argument.
I can and do use the search function
Thanks,
BANE

Hmm..how can a cooked ROM using USPL or etc...to get the cooked ROM to replace the Raw one in your phone ..erh ...is considered legal?
If it is then should we say that the warranty of the phone with the cooked ROM is still valid ??? LOL!!!!

Why this GREAT forum just can not help those GREAT freeware makers a better life?

Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?

First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.

Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.

Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.

Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.​
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!

Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.

Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.

The Ultimate truth about Piracy whether you like it or not opinions wanted!!

Read it and post your opinions on the matter.
http://piratemw.blogspot.com/
I feel it covers ground and is fair to all sides.

2 spelling mistakes in the first sentence alone makes me think it's the gibbering of an idiot.
Didn't bother reading the rest.
To be honest, I don't think "the best article" on anything "to date" will ever appear on a blogspot site.

Moved as not software release.

elyl said:
2 spelling mistakes in the first sentence alone makes me think it's the gibbering of an idiot.
Didn't bother reading the rest.
To be honest, I don't think "the best article" on anything "to date" will ever appear on a blogspot site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it may not be the best but it may worth be reading.everybody is not fluent in english

dummy
elyl said:
2 spelling mistakes in the first sentence alone makes me think it's the gibbering of an idiot.
Didn't bother reading the rest.
To be honest, I don't think "the best article" on anything "to date" will ever appear on a blogspot site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What spelling mistakes? You dont even know english and your talking about me. Stupid mofo hahahaha

No need to throw insults about like that
EDIT: Just read it. The ultimate truth? No. I see A LOT of 'good' software that has been pirated, that has come from big developers and the little guy just starting out. They crack for fun/addiction/because they think they are rebels etc, whatever the reason they will do it because THEY CAN, not because there are ethics involved. Seriously, which major company went "Hey guys, our software got pirated on the first day and we didn't make any money from it, let's release something truly innovative so they won't pirate it." Sorry, that is NOT the 'ultimate truth'.
What a pointless article (IMO).

this is bull ****. there are lots of apps cracked that cost only like $10 made by some developer that only has this tiny simple but cool app that most find usefull. So this developer gets 1000 apps sold over 1.000.000 cracked downloads.
Now lets just steel that new Toyota car because it's only a little design change from the last model and some minor changes to the breaks system.

zarpy said:
What spelling mistakes? You dont even know english and your talking about me. Stupid +++ hahahaha
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please refrain from using bad lenguage and insulting your fellow members

the response
Ok
1) If you read the whole summary of the truth about piracy Iam not saying piracy is good on a whole level. But if there was no piracy , the games made would be old rehashed garbage. Look at Gameloft games for windows mobile. They basically make the same game over and over with different graphics. That to me is theft selling us non-sense with pretty package.
I know people from both sides of this war. Developers from xda-developers,ppc geeks, and pirates like ppcwarez . Iam not going to sit here and say lets take the developers side on all issues. Thats non-sense , Iam a freeware developer myself , with commercial software too. One-sided thinking will just continue the war. I do support the independent developers , for they make truely innovative original software.
As far as the insult...the man called me out 1st...I just responded.

zarpy said:
Ok
1) If you read the whole summary of the truth about piracy Iam not saying piracy is good on a whole level. But if there was no piracy , the games made would be old rehashed garbage. Look at Gameloft games for windows mobile. They basically make the same game over and over with different graphics. That to me is theft selling us non-sense with pretty package.
I know people from both sides of this war. Developers from xda-developers,ppc geeks, and pirates like ppcwarez . Iam not going to sit here and say lets take the developers side on all issues. Thats non-sense , Iam a freeware developer myself , with commercial software too. One-sided thinking will just continue the war. I do support the independent developers , for they make truely innovative original software.
As far as the insult...the man called me out 1st...I just responded.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very interesting

Just make donateware

I immediately think that you're trying to get traffic to your own website rather than discuss the matter here. So rather than go there and read it, I'll discuss it here at XDA, where I'd rather keep my attention and loyalty.
Any law that basically says making a mixed tape for someone else is illegal is complete garbage and media companies can take it and shove it up their a**.
Any law that says I cannot "loan" a movie to someone else, even a complete stranger, and that I have to be responsible for the actions of the person I loaned it to is complete garbage and media companies can take it and shove it up their a**.
Any law that says I'm responsible for what happens to something I loaned someone else is complete garbage and media companies can take that law and shove it up their a**.
Any law that tells me what I can or cannot do with my own property is complete garbage and media companies can take it and shove it up their a**.
Stop enforcing 100-year-old copyright law for media medium that doesn't fit into the law.
Donate to the EFF
http://www.eff.org/

Rorymeadows
Ok rorymeadows
1) The link i provided is not to my website but to my blog. All you do is read blogs not join them. My website is www.krenisiswinmobilegamesapps.com and I didnt direct anyone there
2) You blame me saying Iam redirecting people and your loyal to xda-developers? If your so loyal to xda , why are you posting a redirect and telling people to donate to another website? Before you call someone out, check yourself.
Everything else you said , I agree with.

zarpy said:
Ok rorymeadows
1) The link i provided is not to my website but to my blog. All you do is read blogs not join them. My website is www.krenisiswinmobilegamesapps.com and I didnt direct anyone there
2) You blame me saying Iam redirecting people and your loyal to xda-developers? If your so loyal to xda , why are you posting a redirect and telling people to donate to another website? Before you call someone out, check yourself.
Everything else you said , I agree with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EFF is a professional organization. Yours is a shameless plug for a teen online journal. Please stay on topic.

OP's blog said:
Its you who forces companies to make better and innovative software hoping if they make great software, then people will buy them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. By the same reasoning, stealing televisions should force the manufacturers to make better ones. That is simply wrong.
Not to offend, but to be clear, I find your arguments blinkered and naive. Piracy has very little to do with sticking it to big companies. 99% of the time it's about getting something for free.

johncmolyneux said:
Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. By the same reasoning, stealing televisions should force the manufacturers to make better ones. That is simply wrong.
Not to offend, but to be clear, I find your arguments blinkered and naive. Piracy has very little to do with sticking it to big companies. 99% of the time it's about getting something for free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. It's not about sticking it to big companies. It should be about revolution with digital media and laws, and electronic freedom.

fairness
So judging by the comments so far , both of you believe hacking and cracking software only hurt companies and developers. Also you believe is there was no more software pirates, that would benefit the consumer. The major companies say the same , cracked software leads to high priced games.
1)False= cracked software does not lead to high priced games. I remember super nintendo was charging $40-$60 a game. So that is false statement.
2)Facted= Cracked and pirated software has been around since early 80's,90's . People were happy around that time period with quality of thier software, so people didnt look for free downloads or cracked software. This isnt just about games Iam including the industry as a whole. This includes movies,music,and video games.
Opinion= I believe once those 3 industries started to make rehashed and low quality products, people started looking toward pirated software. If this isnt true, then this issue would have come up a long time ago.
Now to rorymeadows , no Iam not a teen and I dont sound or act like one.

I have absolutely no idea how you got any of what you said from my post, but you're wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. You're just assuming things.
I wonder what this post will be about!
Incidentally, you should look at the technological and social changes that have taken place over the last 30 years and factor that into your opinions. Piracy is a bigger issue now simply because it's in your face, in your living room, on the internet and on your PC. 30 years ago it was kids copying tapes with games on them, but no mass forums to make it publicly available. Music was copied, but it was time consuming so not done as quickly as it is today - the same goes for movies (tape-to-tape VHS recorders for example). Times have changed, but the essence of piracy hasn't. Lots of people like stuff that costs nothing. That is the only fact you can state.

Well there's another thing going on, too.
I was browsing the Microsoft Mobile Marketplace last night. One of the programs I found up there was Resco Photo Manager. $60. $60!!!!!!! For THAT?!?!?! A program that I'd probably use 10 times a year is $60??!?!?!?!
I used to work at the college dining hall back in undergrad. People used to steal and steal, pocking pop-tarts, walking out with drinks and subs without paying. It drove the price up more. Yes, stealing jumps the overhead and makes things costlier. But did that stop the stealing? No, in fact, it made it much worse.

johncmolyneux and rorytmeadows both are correct.
/end thread.

[REQUEST] Beta Update Etiquette

So, some of you may have received an email requesting you fill out a short survey for a chance to be included in the beta test for the upcoming AT&T Atrix firmware update. I implore you to read this message and at least consider it.
I write this as a request to the members of the XDA community to be respectful to Motorola. Frankly, I was absolutely embarrassed to be a member of this community with how many of you handled the last beta test. Posting confidential information, breaking the NDA, posting restricted tools on the Motorola forum itself? It doesn't matter what "morals" you decide you want to follow, take it somewhere else please. That kind of behavior does nothing but HINDER our cause. If I was Motorola, and I looked at how my end users reacted to something they agreed to uphold, I wouldn't want to give them anything further. Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ, but please:
Don't break NDA.
Don't post restricted files.
Don't yell and scream and swear at Motorola.
You do nothing but make us look like fools when you do these things.
This thread is not meant to open discussion. This thread is not meant to start a flame war. This thread is my personal request to the members of the XDA community as one of the few developers actually working on the platform right now: Please be civil, and please be mature.
Thank you.
-Ririal (aka Fenrir)

I see where you're coming from, but I reserve the right to yell and cuss at whomever I want. ;-)
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Ririal said:
So, some of you may have received an email requesting you fill out a short survey for a chance to be included in the beta test for the upcoming AT&T Atrix firmware update. I implore you to read this message and at least consider it.
I write this as a request to the members of the XDA community to be respectful to Motorola. Frankly, I was absolutely embarrassed to be a member of this community with how many of you handled the last beta test. Posting confidential information, breaking the NDA, posting restricted tools on the Motorola forum itself? It doesn't matter what "morals" you decide you want to follow, take it somewhere else please. That kind of behavior does nothing but HINDER our cause. If I was Motorola, and I looked at how my end users reacted to something they agreed to uphold, I wouldn't want to give them anything further. Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ, but please:
Don't break NDA.
Don't post restricted files.
Don't yell and scream and swear at Motorola.
You do nothing but make us look like fools when you do these things.
This thread is not meant to open discussion. This thread is not meant to start a flame war. This thread is my personal request to the members of the XDA community as one of the few developers actually working on the platform right now: Please be civil, and please be mature.
Thank you.
-Ririal (aka Fenrir)
(p.s. to moderators, if you feel I'm out of line, you may remove this thread at any point.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks so much for posting this... i felt the exact same way

+100 (to Ririal's OP, not the clown who posted right before me)
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

basically, dont bring xda into it.

mafiaboy01 said:
Well I'm not worried about moto doing anything to me, they'll come after me as fast as there getting the bootloader unlocked.
Bite me
Sent from Motorola Atrix on TELUS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its people like you that ruin the hard work others put into this and other issues we may have with companies. He didnt mention anything about them coming after one of us or any of us for that matter he simply asked us to not break NDA (something that is Legally speaking far more dangerous than you take for granted) and also to not make our community (that is to say the developer community) look like complete loser's. who would honestly want to help someone who is constantly screaming and cursing at them? I know i wouldn't and I say that from COMPLETE Experience seeing as thats EXACTLY what I do on a daily basis and I constantly make people do the harder work if they are yelling at me. so why not just get your head out of your butt and act a bit more mature about the OP and maybe be more respectful.
To the moderators,
I apologize as I know this is attacking a specific person and that is not usually something that is allowed. But people like this need to realize just the potential they hold for possibly taking down something as great as these forums. If you feel that you need to remove my post please do so, but I ask that in this case you may let me know so that I realize just how strict on these rules you may be.

caderon said:
Its people like you that ruin the hard work others put into this and other issues we may have with companies. He didnt mention anything about them coming after one of us or any of us for that matter he simply asked us to not break NDA (something that is Legally speaking far more dangerous than you take for granted) and also to not make our community (that is to say the developer community) look like complete loser's. who would honestly want to help someone who is constantly screaming and cursing at them? I know i wouldn't and I say that from COMPLETE Experience seeing as thats EXACTLY what I do on a daily basis and I constantly make people do the harder work if they are yelling at me. so why not just get your head out of your butt and act a bit more mature about the OP and maybe be more respectful.
To the moderators,
I apologize as I know this is attacking a specific person and that is not usually something that is allowed. But people like this need to realize just the potential they hold for possibly taking down something as great as these forums. If you feel that you need to remove my post please do so, but I ask that in this case you may let me know so that I realize just how strict on these rules you may be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Happy ?
Sent from Motorola Atrix on TELUS.

+1 fully agree with OP. Posting elements of the update will get poster in trouble and could get XDA in trouble. Also behave like a civilized person yelling and screaming as a child got you nothing and it'll do nothing now... just my 2 cents
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.

decoyd said:
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're not understanding what he's saying.
He's telling people who sign up for Moto's beta test, to actually follow the NDA (non-disclosure agreement), and not post the update.zip files that we are supplied as beta testers. It is against the agreement we make with Moto when we sign up and accept the beta test update. That has NOTHING to do with rooting your phone or modifying your files on your phone.
Example: I get the update, immediately pull the .zip off my internal SD card and throw it on Megaupload and post the link for everyone to have.
Doing that basically tells Motorola "F you and your beta testing", and shows that we have no intentions of working with them. All that will do is stop them from trying to work with us (and even if you don't think they are because they're not giving us the golden keys to their phone, they are still trying to work with us as a consumer in the fullest capacity they can as a commercial company).
We can have the situation where we get zero testing to updates until they're released, or even worse ZERO updates because Motorola no longer feels the consumer has any desire to work with them, or we can have a synergistic relationship going to the extent that both parties can get at least some part of their way.
Having them unlock the bootloader for us is honestly IMO never going to happen. NO phone company is doing this, so it's silly to think they will or that we deserve it. Devs are the ones who unlock or bypass bootloaders and all our Android phones; devs will find a way, a 3rd party will find a way, but Motorola has zero interest in doing that for us and to think otherwise is foolish. So what they DO give us, may help other people to figure it out and crack it themselves. But we need things to work both ways, with Moto giving a little room for us to update our software and continue on with Android's progress.

To correct some misunderstandings: You have the right to jailbreak your device, but you do not have the right to posses or share someones intellectual property without permission, or break NDA.

Agree and disagree with op. Agree because we should not be breaking such an agreement. Disagree because such an agreement should not exist in the first place.
Sent from my Atrix using XDA Premium App.

dLo GSR said:
It is against the agreement we make with Moto when we sign up and accept the beta test update. That has NOTHING to do with rooting your phone or modifying your files on your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(1) You violate (or at least I do) agreements with Motorola all the time. Why is this time different?
(2) This has EVERYTHING to do with root. The whole reason people do this is to keep phones unlocked/rooted.
dLo GSR said:
Doing that basically tells Motorola "F you and your beta testing", and shows that we have no intentions of working with them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(3) False. If we were given a way to obtain root or have an unlocked bootloader through official channels, you can make this argument. As the situation is quite the opposite, I don't see how this is a valid conclusion.
dLo GSR said:
All that will do is stop them from trying to work with us
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(4) I'm honestly baffled by this statement.
Saying that these activities is going to push Motorola to provide "ZERO" updates is ludicrous. Could it encourage them to not offer betas before release? Maybe, but I doubt it. They need feedback.
In the end, I just reiterate: Why draw the line at posting files from betas? SBFs are posted all the time. We violate our agreements all the time, so what's so different this time?

knigitz said:
To correct some misunderstandings: You have the right to jailbreak your device, but you do not have the right to posses or share someones intellectual property without permission, or break NDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
False. The point is that jailbreaking is legal, and if you read the LoC ruling I posted, you'll see that the related activities of distributing their software (e.g. sbf's) is NOT a violation of their IP. Just like using clips from a copyrighted movie in a documentary without permission is not a violation of copyright. NDAs are no different than the EULAs which are violated left and right. What's the big difference between everyone happily violating their user agreements with Motorola and AT&T but somehow the NDA is now sacrosanct.
Added links: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/2006_statement.html and http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.html

I'd tend to agree with the OP ..
Stuff will leak, and the fact is we're all looking to get the next new thing / enhancement, but we should all demonstrate a little discretion if not for any other reason than to be practical ... The more blatant (some of the stuff on the mot forum bordered on ridiculous) the more likely the vendors will shift even more effort and resources to locking things down.
All imho, which when I last checked we're all entitled to

decoyd said:
(1) You violate (or at least I do) agreements with Motorola all the time. Why is this time different?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because this one isn't an implicit I-opened-the-product-box, you signed up as a beta tester, which is not a given privilege as a consumer. This is an OPT-IN test opportunity. Probably 98% of the people with the Atrix do not participate in this beta test. Like you said, we're allowed to root/jailbreak our phones technically because of the LoC ruling. That does not make you immune to breaking an NDA. Don't be ignorant. I have seen people sued and prosecuted for breaking NDAs, especially in my line of work.
I got the beta update, and I tried it, gave my feedback, and went back to 1.2.6. When someone figured out how to do root and they released the update ALL OF FIVE DAYS LATER, I updated. I do not believe that releasing the update to the masses in any way helped to re-gain root access for 4.1.57.
decoyd said:
(2) This has EVERYTHING to do with root. The whole reason people do this is to keep phones unlocked/rooted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While that may be true, and rooting in itself is not wrong, the process to get it by releasing a company's IP is. Geohot lost on this one with Sony. If you want the damn beta update so bad, then SIGN UP FOR IT. If you're so committed to finding root and unlocking our bootloader, THEN PARTICIPIATE in the beta. None of that requires you to break the NDA.
decoyd said:
(3) False. If we were given a way to obtain root or have an unlocked bootloader through official channels, you can make this argument. As the situation is quite the opposite, I don't see how this is a valid conclusion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right. Biting the hand that feeds you is a way better solution to getting what you want.
decoyd said:
(4) I'm honestly baffled by this statement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What, you don't understand common logic?
decoyd said:
Saying that these activities is going to push Motorola to provide "ZERO" updates is ludicrous. Could it encourage them to not offer betas before release? Maybe, but I doubt it. They need feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They don't need feedback from us. They can easily throw together a small focus group or do in-house testing or carrier testing that doesn't include us. Most companies work that way. We were fortunate to have Moto decide to include the general public.
decoyd said:
In the end, I just reiterate: Why draw the line at posting files from betas? SBFs are posted all the time. We violate our agreements all the time, so what's so different this time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're opting in for this test. If you can't handle the rules and regulations, then don't do it and just wait and whine until the actual update is released. I can't remember anyone complaining of signing up for the Beta and not getting in, so if you want the damn file, then sign up and get to work.
And thank you for ignoring about 50% of my post.

decoyd said:
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I have to laugh at how you didn't even read what the post was about.
This is about the beta test, nothing more, nothing less. The entirety of the test is enclosed under an NDA, which regardless of your personal or moral standards, is a legally binding contract and should not be broken. Last time there was a beta test, users willingly and knowingly broke the NDA and posted the confidential information all over the forums. Most of those threads were shut down immediately. When I root my device, I'm not breaking a signed agreement that says I won't root my device. It's not even close to the same thing, you're overgeneralizing the subject. I'm talking about a very specific thing here, not android hacking in general.
Also, an NDA is a legally binding contract, and it IS illegal to break. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement

dLo GSR said:
Having them unlock the bootloader for us is honestly IMO never going to happen. NO phone company is doing this, so it's silly to think they will or that we deserve it. Devs are the ones who unlock or bypass bootloaders and all our Android phones; devs will find a way, a 3rd party will find a way, but Motorola has zero interest in doing that for us and to think otherwise is foolish. So what they DO give us, may help other people to figure it out and crack it themselves. But we need things to work both ways, with Moto giving a little room for us to update our software and continue on with Android's progress.
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Then why is HTC so responsive to 3rd party devs? (Excluding Thunderbolt, wtf is with that) I have Cognition on my Captivate, and CM7 on my Inspire. So forgive me if I decide to disagree with you that it's not silly to want an unlocked bootloader.
Especially on my captivate. The thing is complete crap without Cognition. Yet I was able to easily install ROM manager and Cognition and slap it on there. It's only Motorola right now that are big enough pricks to do this to us. Sony gave their users a way to install ROMs. Now it's only us locked in the cage.

dLo GSR said:
If you can't handle the rules and regulations, then don't do it
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How do you justify rooting your phone? You are violating their rules and regulations. Nobody is forcing you to buy their product.

NDA's are pretty serious business. Just because Motorola doesn't sue you doesn't change this fact. Lifetime friends of mine that work at Microsoft and Google can't tell me what they are working on specifically. I've gotten used to responses like "working on Google Maps" and not bothering them for more details because I respect their NDAs.
Ririal said:
And I have to laugh at how you didn't even read what the post was about.
This is about the beta test, nothing more, nothing less. The entirety of the test is enclosed under an NDA, which regardless of your personal or moral standards, is a legally binding contract and should not be broken. Last time there was a beta test, users willingly and knowingly broke the NDA and posted the confidential information all over the forums. Most of those threads were shut down immediately. When I root my device, I'm not breaking a signed agreement that says I won't root my device. It's not even close to the same thing, you're overgeneralizing the subject. I'm talking about a very specific thing here, not android hacking in general.
Also, an NDA is a legally binding contract, and it IS illegal to break. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement
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