Database Develop

How's it legal?

I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks

Yeah, there's a line there somewhere. I think.

Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......

atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
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Click to collapse
AFAIK there is a kind of morality behind it - if you can buy the software, and you are using it for free, its considered Warez.
If you cant buy the software then its considered that you are not taking food from anyone's mouth, and its tolerated.
Of course you could say you are reducing the competitive advantage of the other devices e.g. taking Omnia's widgets and moving it to a HTC Touch Diamond, and thats when things get messy, but I think this is generally how its seen and how it works.
Surur

If it's HTC software and you're using it for an HTC phone, it's asssumed that it's licensed for use on your device and acceptable. A bit of a stretch, but HTC has never, to my knowledge, requested that files be removed from XDA-Devs servers, so there seems to be tacit permission or simply active non-enforcement.
Same for AT&T appz &c if it's an AT&T phone or you're using their service, I suppose (likewise for other carriers and their apps).
If a software being distributed is a redistribution of a freeware (which should have allowed for redistribution in the freeware license), it's acceptable. As well, sharewares should not come preregistered or with serials or any means to circumvent proper registration and doing so or requesting such things gets posts deleted and accounts banned.
So that applies to non-OS/OEM/Carrier apps distributed in ROMs.
Because of various reasons (e.g. the fact that WinMo never really took off as much as Bill & Co. would have liked, and because OEMs and carriers don't want to spend money to license and prepare distributions of the WinMo OS thereby making customers less likely to invest in soon-to-be-obsolete devices, and I like to think a bit of respect for the hackers who manage to port and distro better ROMs than the carriers and OEMs), Bill & Co have decided not to send their anti-piracy witch hunters after WinMo ROMs. It is actively NOT enforced. (Different meaning from 'not actively enforced' and that's intentional.)
Because of the greyness in this area you will notice that no MS products are hosted on XDA-Dev servers.
However, to allay any fears on your part, if your OEM or carrier has provided version n of an OS, or released a free upgrade, or you have paid for a ROm upgrade for your phone's model, your hardware is licensed to use that version.
So, if you are truly worried about breaching laws that aren't, in fact, being enforced, do not upgrade to an OS version not distributed by your carrier/OEM or that has not been licensed as free.
I personally think that while the developer of WinMo turns one eye blind to these activities, the porting of WinMo versions to different hardwares is something they keep their other eye on closely as it's to their advantage and an area of activity and innovation that they probably exploit. Because they aren't stupid.
Does that make things clearer for anyone?
P.S.
I should disclose that I am not, in fact, qualified as a legal counsellor or a lawyer. I only play one on TV.
;-)

IIRC, the thought is "If the software is offered already in the shipped ROM, it's paid for and OK. As long as that ROM is ported in whole to another device." I believe the mods look down upon pulling 3rd party software from ROM's to use in another ROM that the software was not originally offered.
I believe that's the general consensus, though I may be wrong.

from legal stand point. nothing that is done here is considered as stealing. Consider this , you use linux an open source format. you can modify to accomdate your needs. which these tools are suppled from the linux distributer. Or it is like adding speakers and a good radio to your new car how ever you want to look at it.

atilt said:
I have seen people post on here comments that something is warez and warez is not tolerated on this site. For example, the maps needed for TomTom. So my question as mentioned in the title, how's it legal to rip roms from other devices and modify them to work on all devices? Or if it is not legal, why is it tolerated where warez is not?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if the software can be ripped out of a stock rom from AT&T, etc, then it can be shared here. If it is software you must buy, like the maps for tomtom, then you cannot post them here. You can rip the tomtom software from an AT&T rom, so it's posted here. You must buy the maps, so they're not. Does that help a little?

91004 said:
Just depends if the moderators are interested in the software or not.......
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it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.

scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
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hello, just my opinion scotchua, but when it first read 91004 post and then the "smile" or grin posted, it made me laugh. had he not posted a "smile" or had he instead used this symbol "" ie sarcastic, then i think it would have been inappropriate. again just my opionion and i do value all the time you have invested here at XDA-Developers,
@91004 , welcome to XDA-Developers, this place is addicting and it rocks
thanks
Lupe

scotchua said:
it's really unfortunate that this is your first post. Not a good tone to start with.
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First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much

by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
If you post GameShoe#124 - well... everyone here is not ensured to have a license for the game. If the game is not a trial/freeware program, or otherwise checking to ensure you paid for the license to use it (such as a key).. then you're distributing content that is not owned or licensed & available to you.

BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
So, Downloading updated/patched/ported versions of the same product is allowed -- you already have a license.
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Well, here's something to think about then: I could get a number of WM 6.1 ROMs as an upgrade to my WM 6 Kaiser but checking HTC's official site, there are no upgrades offered for my IMEI #. If we go strictly by the rules, the availability of WM 6.1 for me could be considered warez. On the other hand, tolerating this kind of relatively harmless behavior would certainly boost an OS's popularity.
In fact, one of the main reasons for my choosing HTC WM was the availability of these great number of ROMs, migrating from UIQ3.
There is a fine line, my definition would be: as long as the specific post does not have a negative financial impact on sales, it should be allowed.

91004 said:
First;
That was my first POST on here, not my first in life..... I'm not going to argue your point, other to state that I disagree with your position. I just happen to be a lurker more than anything else. I'm not here to start trouble and after being in the computer engineering field for 27 years I think I know a thing or two....
I was making a joke.... (See the Smiley faces?) Get it now?
Thank You Very Much
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My point is simply that it was unfortunate that your first post is to get a dig in on the moderators' objectivity. When you know how much people complain about them and to them for doing a mostly thankless job, which they get no compensation for i might add, you'll understand why I don't think those type of comments are funny. I definitely understand that not all jokes are taken in the light in which they were intended; however, some jokes are best left unsaid. I certainly won't hold it against you as, just like you, i'm merely sharing my opinion.

BBM-Lee said:
by owning a device that the ROM's are compatible with, you've already paid a license fee to M$ in a sense.
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No, you haven't. The device was licensed for use with the M$ product by the OEM. That license is restricted to a specific version, or versions on specific hardware
When the OEM or Carrier licenses an OS or an OS update that they are allowed to distribute, there is still an End User Licensing Agreement, and people have to read them to know what is allowed.
When one of our amazing XDA chefs cooks up a ROM or a new OS or a significant OS update and you install it on a device for which distribution was not licensed, this is warez. Read the EULA if in doubt.
Again, that's why XDA doesn't actually host those ROMs. Maybe official ROMs, but not hacked/ported ROMs.
However, it is currently an M$ policy to not enforce what is essentially warez distribution of the Win-Mobile OS. So I wouldn't worry about getting arrested or sued for installing one of these ROMs.
If M$ does decide to enforce, they don't go after the end users but the people distributing. So, end users, relax.
If you feel ethically bound to comply with EULAs and copyright laws, then you need to not use cooked ROMs that your device isn't licensed for or that the EULA doesn't permit you to use.
If you feel that laws that aren't enforced, or are unenforceable, are non-effective or lapsed, then you should do as your conscience directs you to do and be sure to stand up for yourself in court if lleh freezes over and M$ decides to enforce (and please do blog about it, I'll paypal you $5 bucks for your defence fund).
If you're a red-blooded rum-sodden pirate, you should say "Aaargh!" and do what you're going to do because you'd do it anyway.
Just please respect XDA Dev's policies whatever you choose to do and don't mess up a good thing.
BTW:
There is a policy listed in the site Rules or FAQ, so just read that and if you don't like it, don't leave angry, but please leave.
If you don't understand legal aspects and want to ask about it, PM the mods or admins and ask respectfully.
You can even PM me, but I cannot speak for XDA, I can only explain some legal basics and even then, my knowledge is based more in constitutional and criminal law.
I do think that threads like these call attention to the topic and it's best not to stir the pot, or rock the boat (pick your own metaphor of choice) and call the wrong kind of attention to the issues.
I'd like to see this thread closed down.

Exitao said:
...snip...
... don't leave angry, but please leave.
...snip...
I'd like to see this thread closed down.
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HEY! That's my line.
Your Wish Is Granted.
Thread Closed The Answer Has been given in this thread.
@91004, Honestly I laughed at your joke too.

I'll close the thread then
Dave

DaveShaw said:
I'll close the thread then
Dave
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D'oh! Message to the Kids: Don't drink and Moderate.

Hacker Ethics

In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics

no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.

koftheworld said:
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
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I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol

I didn't even read the article that you linked, however, I'd like to remind you that no one is forcing you to purchase anything? This is true with anything and everything. That's the problem with today's society, instant gratification and on the flip-side, a person's perceived right of entitlement. I say this all the time, if you don't like something, vote with your wallet. That goes for anything. I can't stand the fact that athletes and team owners make the amount of money they do, so I no longer pay to go to an event. I no longer pay to purchase swag, etc. I vote with my wallet.
Same here. If people have an issue with being charged for (I can't even call it root access), then don't buy it. It's really that simple.

You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol

Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
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Of course I read the post. This is not the golden age of android hacking anymore. Everyone is looking to monetize due to the complexity of actually getting root/bootloader unlock as compared to how the OS was in the beginning. The community, the phones, and the OS were much different in the beginning. At this point in time, I think people who don't have these skills and willingly purchased locked down devices should have their wallets open if they want anything. Maybe with the next big OS we'll see a return to "hacker ethics", but now it's about getting paid for you think your work is worth.

Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.

Akrifay said:
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
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I understand where you are coming from. There are still those that do imbibe those ideals, but most of them have disappeared into nexus land or have taken jobs outside of XDA (like Hash).

Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
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Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.

Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
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I had never thought/considered that, but it makes sense.

orangechoochoo said:
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
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Click to collapse
I have contributed to many a Dev over the years... I am not a Dev per say ... But i believe i am a Hacker by the true definition ... just happens not to be Android Software that i hack. It is amazing work that they do and i am very appreciative for it. But leave it up to the individual to "donate" ... I dont know guess im just an old schooler in a new schooler world lol

Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
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Click to collapse
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe

I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.

Symbiontsoul said:
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
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Yay im getting through! lol

I forgot about the bounty. Did the guy get it? If so, then I it's odd that he is asking for additional payment too.
Edit- I see that the root bounty thread was closed be cause the rooter is requiring $20 payment t instead.

wow, XDA sure has changed over the years.

Akrifay said:
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I am to agree with you, I would like to see your free hack/exploit contribution to the community.
You aren't paying for a root method. The root method is explained. You're paying for the product that does it for you.

Akrifay said:
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
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Click to collapse
Well, look at it this way. By the definition you posted, in that information should be free, maiko1 had no further responsibility to the community than to make a post and say "Hey, i found XYZ exploit. Do with it what you will." He did not have to say how that exploit specifically would allow us to gain root access, let alone make a tool that did it for us. All he had to do was publish the information. Then he would have been an "ethical hacker" according to your definition. Now, seeing as how in the post above the one i quoted, you stated you are not an Android developer, even if you had this information available for free, what would you do with it? By your own admittance you wouldnt be able to achieve root with just the information, you still needed a tool to do it for you. Someone has to develop this tool. There are no ethics for "ethical development" and certainly no expectation that it should be free. Developers work for money. Don't confuse hacking with developing. Hacking is finding exploits. Developing tools to take advantage of them is a whole other story.
Also, just to kill the whole "the hack should be free" argument :
As Stallman notes, "free" refers to unrestricted access; it does not refer to price.
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From the article you linked. You have access to the method and tool, he didnt root his own phone and keep it from the rest of us. Doesnt mean you shouldnt pay for it.

I can't speak for those behind the root "hack", but I know I don't work for free.
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?

adrynalyne said:
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
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Furthermore, your skills aren't worthless either, so why should they be free?

[DISCUSSION][OT] Freedom Of Speech Thread - Share Your OT Opinion

This thread is OT. It is a place for the freedom of speech.
I believe that XDA needs such a place more than ever.
Here you can discuss and share your opinion about ANY matter. No censorship here, as long as you follow the standard rules of conduct you are also using in the real world. You can share your opinion, even if some won’t agree/won’t like it, as long as you are still polite in the way you express yourself.
*****​
As a starter i want to bring up a topic that does bother many of you too for sure. It’s about that XDA is becoming a place where people come to make money more and more. One thing that concerns me most of all at the moment is the current S-OFF situation of several devices.
This text here was made by me and @neniick and it represents our opinion about something, that could not have been discussed anywhere for a long time now, although it’s a topic up-to-the-minute.
We dont want to disrespect jcase or beaups or any dev for that matter, we all know they put hours of work into these exploits to get it working and make it user friendly.
BUT they sell their product, and they ask a way too high amount for it. We get that they need to buy phones and tools for these exploits, their website/ hosting costs etc, but think about it, if only 1000 people use sunshine, they get $25000(!). thats just insane. Also, this is not xda sharing anymore, this is pure business. Business because they can. Because they are the only ones able to do this.
And for us, the argument that their work is of a “higher” quality than the work/contributions of others is invalid in our opinion. We believe in SHARING. Everyone gives the community what he is CAPABLE of. There is NO need to distinguish the “deliverables”. Every dev/modder/whatever contributes time in his own way. BUT NO ONE charges anything for it. You can donate if you want to of course, but no one is allowed to CHARGE something. It just doesn’t match the spirit of XDA. Something that was possible only some time ago, is now not “possible” anymore to be shared for free… C’mon.
We really think xda is going down the way things are going right now. We would not use sunshine s-off, since it goes just against what XDA stands for (or at least once did), and that should not be supported. People are abusing their monopoly. It's about making money. Not about helping/doing it for the community anymore, don't even mention "sharing". Of course nobody owes anything to anyone here.
But that's exactly the point. They don't owe us s-off, but also, they should not be allowed to sell it here. There are xda rules applying to everyone, no matter what they do/share here. No matter if you are a simple member or a mega-dev/mega-ultra-mod.
But mysteriously, with sunshine it gets tolerated. Remember revone/moonshine/rumrunner s-off solutions? They were all free. You could donate if you wanted to show your appreciation. But what happens now is monopolization. And greed. And we don't think this is fair. And we won't support it. This is simple abuse of "market position". Also we won’t just shut up about it.
That you can't say anything about/against it anymore without being attacked/censored/etc. anymore... It proves everything we said. We most likely will get nearly banned for this statement now and these open words. And that's exactly what should make us start thinking people. We need to start a discussion here.
We won't go s-off this way. We just can't stand this behaviour anymore. And we think many of you guys are thinking the same way.
We should set an example against capitalism on xda. Capitalism that does not even try to hide anymore.
Now we would really like to hear about the opinions of you guys

herwegan said:
This thread is OT. It is a place for the freedom of speech.
I believe that XDA needs such a place more than ever.
Here you can discuss and share your opinion about ANY matter. No censorship here, as long as you follow the standard rules of conduct you are also using in the real world. You can share your opinion, even if some won’t agree/won’t like it, as long as you are still polite in the way you express yourself.
*****​
As a starter i want to bring up a topic that does bother many of you too for sure. It’s about that XDA is becoming a place where people come to make money more and more. One thing that concerns me most of all at the moment is the current S-OFF situation of several devices.
This text here was made by me and @neniick and it represents our opinion about something, that could not have been discussed anywhere for a long time now, although it’s a topic up-to-the-minute.
We dont want to disrespect jcase or beaups or any dev for that matter, we all know they put hours of work into these exploits to get it working and make it user friendly.
BUT they sell their product, and they ask a way too high amount for it. We get that they need to buy phones and tools for these exploits, their website/ hosting costs etc, but think about it, if only 1000 people use sunshine, they get $25000(!). thats just insane. Also, this is not xda sharing anymore, this is pure business. Business because they can. Because they are the only ones able to do this.
And for us, the argument that their work is of a “higher” quality than the work/contributions of others is invalid in our opinion. We believe in SHARING. Everyone gives the community what he is CAPABLE of. There is NO need to distinguish the “deliverables”. Every dev/modder/whatever contributes time in his own way. BUT NO ONE charges anything for it. You can donate if you want to of course, but no one is allowed to CHARGE something. It just doesn’t match the spirit of XDA. Something that was possible only some time ago, is now not “possible” anymore to be shared for free… C’mon.
We really think xda is going down the way things are going right now. We would not use sunshine s-off, since it goes just against what XDA stands for (or at least once did), and that should not be supported. People are abusing their monopoly. It's about making money. Not about helping/doing it for the community anymore, don't even mention "sharing". Of course nobody owes anything to anyone here.
But that's exactly the point. They don't owe us s-off, but also, they should not be allowed to sell it here. There are xda rules applying to everyone, no matter what they do/share here. No matter if you are a simple member or a mega-dev/mega-ultra-mod.
But mysteriously, with sunshine it gets tolerated. Remember revone/moonshine/rumrunner s-off solutions? They were all free. You could donate if you wanted to show your appreciation. But what happens now is monopolization. And greed. And we don't think this is fair. And we won't support it. This is simple abuse of "market position". Also we won’t just shut up about it.
That you can't say anything about/against it anymore without being attacked/censored/etc. anymore... It proves everything we said. We most likely will get nearly banned for this statement now and these open words. And that's exactly what should make us start thinking people. We need to start a discussion here.
We won't go s-off this way. We just can't stand this behaviour anymore. And we think many of you guys are thinking the same way.
We should set an example against capitalism on xda. Capitalism that does not even try to hide anymore.
Now we would really like to hear about the opinions of you guys
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+1

thread moved to here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/general/general/discussion-freedom-speech-thread-share-t3083156

Unlock Bootloader = 'No'? Then how can they still do software updates?

I have been back and forth with both T-Mobile and Sony tech support about unlocking my Sony Xperia Z Model C6606 4.3 T-Mobile variant Build 10.4.C.0.814. When I entered the service code '*#* blah blah blah' it says unlock = No. Not possible. No beans. Sorry Charlie. No luck, no joy.
The following is a paraphrase of the exchanges with these two corporate giants, modified for brevity and the hope that the crushingly depressing outcome might be presented as slightly humorous.
I asked them, 'How do you update the system software when new releases are available?' They replied that there are 'special codes' that unlock the bootloader for the update. And I thought to myself, Really? Isn't that special.
I remarked that if it was possible for them to remotely upgrade the system software (read: kernel), then it is possible for them to remotely unlock the bootloader. The song and dance routine that followed was remarkable. In essence, they declined. Not possible. No beans. Sorry Charlie. No luck, no joy.
I said, if you won't unlock the bootloader now that we have established that you can, would you downgrade the system software to something where I can unlock the bootloader? Again, they declined and left me with nothing more than visions of 'special codes' dancing in my head. Not possible. No beans. Sorry Charlie. No luck, no joy.
My only question is, "Why not? Why on some and not on others?"

This is what you call company's politic, and people who work for it need to fallow this politic, even if its bad for consumer.
This world that we created for our self and we need to deal with it, just like with government.
There are codes for maintaining device(not only codes that you type on phone), that cellular companies get from phone manufactures to make their branded systems, just like their get bunch of other tools that help them doing this.
But its not like SIM-lock code and it cant be thrown around like peace of paper, because:
1) its can be used in bad way(hacking, unlocking etc)
2)it could be used by people that would sell that code to others and make money from it(illegally).
3) It breach of contract that you ACCEPTED buying that phone from t-mobile or as a free handset.
When you bought that phone you accepted agreement that you get with phone AND your operator, that clearly say that you can't mess with your phone system in any way that its said in contract and system it self, and you can use your phone as you get it.
Any modifications break terms of use, and you actually lost any rights to even ask support for help.
My point is that asking support for that code is actually really stupid, because their work doesnt include unlocking devices for modifications that user want to make(illegally looking from contract perspective), As far as device is not damaged or doesnt have problems, you actually have no reason write to them.
Its like going to car dealer where you bought car, and ask to remove engine because you want to put there new one... They totally dont care because this is not part of deal you made with them and its just nothing more than breaking regulations.
It is forum about modifications of phones, but we actually all make silent agreement that we KNOW that we can lost warranty and dont have rights for official support when we modify our phones. I think you forgot about that

Agreements have Caveats
Hi Akinaro,
Thank you for your reply. You are of course correct in what you have pointed out concerning contracts and agreements. It is something of which we all (well, most of us) are aware and accept as a matter of course. But as the title of this response indicates, these agreements are a two-way street.
You have made a number of false assumptions in your post. That's OK. Perhaps I wasn't clear and gave you the wrong impression. Let me start now by saying that dealing with customer and tech support on these issues was not 'stupid'. You are NOT correct in presuming or insinuating that I have forgotten anything about the nature of these agreements, that I have entered into any binding agreements in bad faith, that I have broken any binding agreements, that I were considering breaking any binding agreements or that I might encouraging others to break any binding agreements.
In this case, the phone in question is not subject to a warranty agreement, a purchase agreement or even a use agreement. It has been superseded in all aspects by another phone. It is fully and completely my property. However it does not maintain any monetary value, as the screen is broken and the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the device. It's only value is in re-purposing it or using it for R&D. In it's currently locked state, the potential for both is limited.
When dealing with both the OEM and the carrier's tech support departments, I enumerated all of the conditions detailed above. I informed them that my interests in unlocking the device were personal and developmental in nature. In this they're responses were sympathetic and even conciliatory. We ALL understood that there was no breach of contractual terms taking place. Their actions in dealing with me confirm this simple fact. Plus, it is in their collective best interests to support independent R&D, even on older devices, as I'm sure you are aware. The reasons are manifold and beyond the scope of this OP post.
I apologize if I was unclear: I never at any time asked that either of these entities reveal to me the confidential and proprietary codes that they use to flash locked phones. My point was simply that I knew that they existed; that they knew I knew; and that they could accomplish my request to flash my phone if they chose to do so. It is simply negotiating.
Both corporate entities have graciously met me half-way in my efforts to unlock the bootloader. T-Mobile reactivated the SIM for the express purpose of allowing the service call that disclosed the bootloader could NOT be unlocked by the normal software methods available to the user. They didn't have to do that and I am grateful. Sony has developed a comprehensive online method for determining and delivering unlock codes to their phones that can be unlocked in this manner. Again, I am grateful to them for going this far. But this is not the same thing as unlocking my phone. Both of them have the means and methods available to do so. It is their choice to do so or not to do so. That is why you should call and negotiate. The worst that can happen (if you haven't broken any contracts or voided your warranty) is that they will say no.
I am perfectly within my rights to be disappointed that I didn't accomplish my goal. Likewise, it is completely understandable for me to wonder why they haven't fully implemented a plan to unlock all 4.3 'Zs'. I can even complain about it if I want. But I would rather that people smarter than I offer up new tactics and strategies to try. I don't want to give up just yet.
Akinaro said:
This is what you call company's politic, and people who work for it need to fallow this politic, even if its bad for consumer.
This world that we created for our self and we need to deal with it, just like with government.
There are codes for maintaining device(not only codes that you type on phone), that cellular companies get from phone manufactures to make their branded systems, just like their get bunch of other tools that help them doing this.
But its not like SIM-lock code and it cant be thrown around like peace of paper, because:
1) its can be used in bad way(hacking, unlocking etc)
2)it could be used by people that would sell that code to others and make money from it(illegally).
3) It breach of contract that you ACCEPTED buying that phone from t-mobile or as a free handset.
When you bought that phone you accepted agreement that you get with phone AND your operator, that clearly say that you can't mess with your phone system in any way that its said in contract and system it self, and you can use your phone as you get it.
Any modifications break terms of use, and you actually lost any rights to even ask support for help.
My point is that asking support for that code is actually really stupid, because their work doesnt include unlocking devices for modifications that user want to make(illegally looking from contract perspective), As far as device is not damaged or doesnt have problems, you actually have no reason write to them.
Its like going to car dealer where you bought car, and ask to remove engine because you want to put there new one... They totally dont care because this is not part of deal you made with them and its just nothing more than breaking regulations.
It is forum about modifications of phones, but we actually all make silent agreement that we KNOW that we can lost warranty and dont have rights for official support when we modify our phones. I think you forgot about that
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Sorry, but my point is still valid.
You still asking support, that is made for helping with damaged/inoperative devices in way as guarantee say it, for unsupported access to device that is not part of ANY agreement that you accepted buying this phone.
People you talked with can be nice or not, can understand that its personal and for developing purpose. Its all doesnt matter because its company politic.
Even if I support full access to device that you bought(after all ITS YOURS) in other way I know that more than half of people that would see that they have access to it, they would start messing with it and then whine that their phones doesnt work.
In fact, actually damn good part of post on XDA is such whining of people that messed their phone and now they cry that it doesnt work and ask for help, and saddest part is that they never learn lesson from it so its never ending story.
So again, asking support for unlocking your phone, as far as its not SIM-lock, its useless and just silly.
You can ask technician from support if he could do this "on the side, out of records", but you would need +10 charisma for that if you dont know him, or some cash, that for most of time work. I actually loots of time just paid technician to make it on the side, especially when you dont need to wait few days for phone, few minutes, few hours and they fix/unlock your phone without a problem.
Or just find someone who would help you unlock it in different way... but XZ is just old and not "trendy" so no one care anymore and its hard to find anyone here.

OK Akinaro. That's enough with the ad hominem attacks. You have accused me of everything from trying to steal company secrets to unethical breaches of contractual agreements. All I did was try to negotiate some assistance and report on my progress.
Point 1. I am still a long term customer of my carrier. They encourage me to seek their help. So I don't care if you like it or not. What you characterize as abuse or illegal behavior, THEY characterize as completely acceptable.
Point 2. I am a consumer of the OEM's products. They encourage me to seek their help. So I don't care if you like it or not. What you characterize as abuse or illegal behavior, THEY characterize as completely acceptable.
Point 3. This is a development forum. My OP is within bounds and my responses to you have been civil. So I don't care if you like it or not. What you characterize as abuse or illegal behavior, THEY characterize as completely acceptable.
So far, you have accused me of everything from unethical acts and intentions to stupidity and whining. You haven't said anything of any real value. You haven't contributed any constructive ideas how I might get them to help. Nor have you been able to substantiate your wild accusations with anything that resemble facts or logic. So no, you haven't made a single valid point.

You realize that Im just writing obvious things? Because idea of asking official support for unlocking bootloader is just weird.
You can be mad that from your perspective my point is not valid.... because core of your question contain no fricking point at all.
You asked support for unlocking: They said they dont do this.
In your phone manual there is mention: "Any change or modification not expressly approved by Sony may void the user's authority to operate the equipment.", and I think access to bootloader just to have fun with kernel is part of that "modification"
There is about 1000 topic about bootloader on XDA, and they all mention the same thing: if it say no, its no. Simple.
So what you expect them to do? What you expect from XDA when you made this topic? All we can say is obvious thing that everyone know: ts not possible, especially with help of official support, that is not made for that.
Before you even bought your phone you should think and check your device, I always ask to turn phone on before buy it, its a matter of typing *#*#service#*#* to check it, its about 9sec to find bootloader section.
You can be mad at me, Sony or Obama, or anyone who is trendy right now, No one care. All what I write, is obvious things that everyone known.

Noob Friendly.
Hello again Akinaro,
While I am absolutely sure that you have a great deal of technical knowledge about phones (far more than I), it is a poor excuse for rude behavior, engaging in character assassination, making baseless assumptions or libelous accusations. A quick read through your post reveals a bias that is based entirely on a false perception and not the facts. So please allow me to address these directly.
You said, "You asked support for unlocking: They said they dont do this."
FACT: Some T-Mobile Xperia Z phone have a bootloader that IS unlockable (something of which you are well aware). The "*#*#service#*#*" service proves the point. Furthermore, they will supply you with a link to the OEM developers website that will unlock your bootloader while giving you detailed instructions on how to go about it. So NO! I said nothing of the sort.
You said, "In your phone manual there is mention: 'Any change or modification not expressly approved by Sony may void the user's authority to operate the equipment.'"
FACT: That's not what 'express approval' is, means or implies. Sony's assistance to developers in unlocking the bootloader of their devices disproves your unfounded assumptions. It is prima facie evidence of Sony's explicit approval. There are things that a developer can do to an unlocked phone that are either legal or illegal or acceptable and unacceptable. Examples:
1.) Modifying a phone's operating system for purposes such as changing the look and feel of the device, for automation or for the addition of certain desirable features found in other OS releases is (within certain bounds); Acceptable.
2.) Modifying the device to circumvent regulatory restrictions or carrier use agreements?; Not Acceptable.
My point to the OP was that they DO unlock SOME Xperia Z phones regardless of model; that they DO provide assistance in doing so; but that they CAN unlock them all and that they don't explain why the won't. My point is that there is an underlying factor that remains unexplained and I thought that an explanation was worth pursuing. DID YOU NOT GET THAT? I consider this question interesting and the answers murky at best. Why some and not all? Had I NOT asked them why and why not, that would have been stupid. Had I not sought clarification here at a forum that is dedicated to developers, that would have been stupid. Expecting that the OP would have been answered with rational discussion or friendly advice: OBVIOUSLY STUPID.
Alas, I am not mad at you for having your opinion no matter how misguided. I will ALSO refrain from calling you names or implying that, your position, your actions, or your opinions are 'stupid', 'pointless' or 'illegal'. If you want to discuss the topic, fine. Otherwise, please cut the crap. I'll cop to being ignorant. Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, not so much.
Stupid is NOT trying to remedy ignorance by seeking answers. You don't like the OP? Then go read another. You want to just be hostile? It say a lot about you - not me.
Akinaro said:
You realize that Im just writing obvious things? Because idea of asking official support for unlocking bootloader is just weird.
You can be mad that from your perspective my point is not valid.... because core of your question contain no fricking point at all.
You asked support for unlocking: They said they dont do this.
In your phone manual there is mention: "Any change or modification not expressly approved by Sony may void the user's authority to operate the equipment.", and I think access to bootloader just to have fun with kernel is part of that "modification"
There is about 1000 topic about bootloader on XDA, and they all mention the same thing: if it say no, its no. Simple.
So what you expect them to do? What you expect from XDA when you made this topic? All we can say is obvious thing that everyone know: ts not possible, especially with help of official support, that is not made for that.
Before you even bought your phone you should think and check your device, I always ask to turn phone on before buy it, its a matter of typing *#*#service#*#* to check it, its about 9sec to find bootloader section.
You can be mad at me, Sony or Obama, or anyone who is trendy right now, No one care. All what I write, is obvious things that everyone known.
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Thread closed at the request of the OP.

The Future of Note5 Development?

So I've been frequenting these forums for years now. And specifically the Note5 forums ever since I got an n920i. Coming from a OnePlus One, the development for the Note5 is quite underwhelming, and hey, I get it, it's a tough device to develop for. I've seen some really cool things come from these forums. And a lot of users that are passionate about getting the max out of their devices.
But the last few months I've seen two of the major kernel developers drop out from the game. One, well he doesn't even have a device on hand. But the other one, a very passionate developer left because of supposedly problems with the moderators. And if it is because of moderators that are pushing developers away from an admittedly small community, then I feel the community should at least deserve some answers to why developers are leaving the note5 over the moderators. And, if possible, how to resolve these problems. The note5 isn't even a year old and yet support is already dwindling. Developers get bored and quit. That's fine. But when people who are given control to moderate these threads are the ones pushing them away, we should get answers.
That's pretty much my rant. Feel free to chime in if you agree or disagree.

abde27 said:
So I've been frequenting these forums for years now. And specifically the Note5 forums ever since I got an n920i. Coming from a OnePlus One, the development for the Note5 is quite underwhelming, and hey, I get it, it's a tough device to develop for. I've seen some really cool things come from these forums. And a lot of users that are passionate about getting the max out of their devices.
But the last few months I've seen two of the major kernel developers drop out from the game. One, well he doesn't even have a device on hand. But the other one, a very passionate developer left because of supposedly problems with the moderators. And if it is because of moderators that are pushing developers away from an admittedly small community, then I feel the community should at least deserve some answers to why developers are leaving the note5 over the moderators. And, if possible, how to resolve these problems. The note5 isn't even a year old and yet support is already dwindling. Developers get bored and quit. That's fine. But when people who are given control to moderate these threads are the ones pushing them away, we should get answers.
That's pretty much my rant. Feel free to chime in if you agree or disagree.
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I agree with you. If you frequent the forums. You can piece it together when you read bits in different forums. There's still some rom makers and cm13 is being cooked. But unless something changes I reckon in that next 3-4 months. Note 5 is going to become a waste land. Or *young devs* will remain. Nothing wrong with them but.. You know what I mean. Compared to devs that have always done this kind of thing. So I think it's going to dwindle slowly. And then just fade off. Specially when the note 6/other devices hit. Game over...... That's my bet

I totally agree, the issue is there are just so many variants for Samsung devices now its hard for the developers to keep up with every device. Back when I had the Note 3 there were only two variants whereas now there are more than 5 variants for the Note 5.
Even the amount of actual devices there are, there are just too many Samsung are releasing. Back in 2013 there were only 'flagship' devices being developed for as they were the only ones worth developing for, but now there are low-mid range devices that can have a lot of development potential.
If its going to be poor development like this for the Note 5 in the near future or even possibly the Note 6 I might just buy the next Nexus device. I had only bought the Note 5 as I had the Note 4,3 and 2 and the Note line-up was always more powerful than the regular flagship devices.

I've seen and heard complaints about the moderation teams, and I've seen many, many developers come and go on these forums. What most of you do not see is the reason that some of these "developers" leave badmouthing the moderators.
We have a very lenient set of rules here, yet many people feel the need to try to push the boundaries of them, some much more than others.
We have had "developers" leave because they got busted stealing others work, because they got busted trying to make money off of the users here, busted for trying to get users to buy them devices, computers, etc...
We've had our fair share of those who let the "fame" go to their heads and began believing they were above the rules.
And finally, what you don't see, is that we try to work with these people, for the community's sake, to correct the problems, long before they are reprimanded for their actions. In the end it comes down to these people not getting their way, so they take their ball and go home, all the while complaining about the big, bad moderators.
You can choose to believe what you wish, but believe me when I tell you that development is dying because the type of developers that you're seeing more and more of, truly don't care about the community unless you line their pockets or subjugate yourselves to their abuse.
Why do you not see a great majority of the above in the forums? We moderators clean it up so that the community thrives, because really, who wants to support a developer that belittles, berates and humiliates his supporters? Ask him that on whatever social media he's taken up to complain about how he was treated here...

Thank you. I am personally not against moderators. They save threads again and again when things get out of hand. Without moderators, XDA might not be here still.
All I'm asking for is some transparency. To see if a developer left because of moderators or because they themselves broke rules, or whatever the reason is. A device with a lot of development behind it doesn't need that type of transparency because if someone leaves, it doesn't hurt the overall community if there are others working on it. But in a small community like this, it's harder to swallow. If a developer leaves claiming that the moderation team forced them away then maybe the moderation team should give their side of the story so the community knows what's going on, and if there are people interested in developing for the device that they have a frame of reference of knowing what is acceptable here and what isn't.
I hope that makes sense. And I know being transparent isn't the easiest thing to do. But if people are seeing that moderators are being blamed when developers leave and moderators staying quiet, then what kind of message does that send?

There's a clear line between acceptable transparency and airing out other people's dirty laundry in a publicly visible space. It's easy to ask for transparency when someone else is at fault, but imagine being on the other side--transparency might not be the word you'd use to describe it. As far as what's acceptable and what's not, the forum rules are sufficiently clear. Stay within the bounds of that document and you'll have no trouble from the mods. Our goal is to make this a developer-friendly environment that encourages everyone to contribute.

I agree that there is a difference but we are looking at a device that is losing devs by the minute. I do not want to start a political revolution here, or change rules. I do not expect development for the Note5. I would like to see development, but I'm not expecting it. It's very heartbreaking seeing that this forum is mysteriously losing developers for a device not even a year old.
If anything, lets work together to create a place for development to flourish, just like the rules ask us to.

yeah seems like all the big devs are leaving and we left with roms updated from December. All threads are closed without any explanation. Kinda sad since the note 5 really needs more devs to develop. great device but if there's no support from devs. i will stay away from samsung for a while.

The biggest question of me till now is Why @UpInTheAir left the community?

Lam pham said:
Why @UpInTheAir left the community?
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I read his post where he explain something about problems with moderator(s) and I saw a strange phrase something like "developers need help from moderators" or something similar to it, but I don't understand WHAT help a moderator could give to the Dev.
More over I don't understand why a Dev could think to leave a community due to problems with moderator(s)....Moderators manage rules and I don't figure out how this could touch/ruins Dev's work.
All of this is strange for me.

At the end of the day, every closed thread here is closed because there was an issue revolving around kanging of people's work- that's where it STARTS...from there mods are forced to step in, and it's at this stage that SOMEONE will always feel they were done wrong- either thru uneducated assumptions on things like the GPL or apache licenses and what is or is not acceptable to document "credit given" and "permission" to maintain compliance with these licenses- or it's knowingly stolen...the mods start taking heat when they moderate with their emotions not their duty, take it from a guy just again logging in again after a ban issued in anger...only to find a ghost town...believe me when i say you'll never get transparency. I just read a mod basically call out uita in "whatever social circle he's in" and very tastelessly degrade him when he can't defend himself- at the end of the day this is the mod's sandbox- i can't even count now how many times I've seen MY statement repeated (take their ball and go home) by multiple mods who obviously read MY feelings on it all- but again, it's your sandbox boys...I've been told half a dozen times now that this is a private site, the mods don't owe us anything for explanations, nor will we get them (at least not truthful ones because no one will admit fault), and that none of this was even acceptable to discuss, not would it be, in public. my response was simply that public outcry would need to be answered eventually and here it is, inevitably, as i predicted. I stood for what i believed to be right, i got banned. Every mod told me i was wrong to even voice an opinion, and how dare that opinion contrast, it was against the rules, if i didn't agree then kick rocks and this 2 week ban will give me time to reflect. Well, that's the same attitude that pushed away a few devs, and even tekhd, apparently, cuz i come back and tekhd, evren, drketan, all have locked threads and are currently ceased development on xda...
Devs will come and go, that's the nature of the beast, but the Note 5 forums you currently see are the results of something else. I've always considered myself to be a rational person very open to hearing out another's side, but all i got was banned and told it ain't a democracy, shut up or get out and stay out. That was my honest experience. Fwiw...

Lam pham said:
The biggest question of me till now is Why @UpInTheAir left the community?
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You haven't know what's secret behind the scenes, so don't ask for the reason....you will never get the answer....
Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

haifish9999 said:
You haven't know what's secret behind the scenes, so don't ask for the reason....you will never get the answer....
Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
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I hope it's not a case of " Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad". (As in Animal Farm story)
Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

Well, just to be perfectly "transparent", i don't even rightfully know how long my original ban was, but i DID just make another account and get an extra, oh i dunno week or something....does that make my bucket of lies an accurate account, @KennyG123 ?
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

The winter is coming .....

I've been banned myself for well over 3 weeks and I stopped the work I was doing for another phone. The mod thought it was ok to keep deleting my messages and close my thread so I can't say that all the mods are perfect and do the right thing.. Seems more like moderating from emotion or stress... I can understand why he left the community and for those that don't know that doing any type of dev work usually takes hours upon hours, weeks even months just to get something made perfectly and then a moderator bans him and basically made him feel worthless with all the time spent working on stuff.. You'd be mad too if this was done to yourself!!

Rx8Driver said:
Well, just to be perfectly "transparent", i don't even rightfully know how long my original ban was, but i DID just make another account and get an extra, oh i dunno week or something....does that make my bucket of lies an accurate account, @KennyG123 ?
Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
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If you want your dirty laundry aired and not the pack of lies about "poor me voicing my opinion" I will be happy to post all your transgressions publicly with your permission. You are just like everyone else that received a short ban, then continued to break rules...it is always the evil moderators. And to add to your character, you just lied about the other account in the PM you sent me and now here you admit to it...so why should anyone believe anything you say? Not trying to argue, but it gets tiresome seeing people post these "Poor me" posts and the "evil moderators" stuff. You don't think it hurts us to see that? We are volunteers just trying to give back to the forums we love so much. We try to keep the drama down because drama is NOT development. But people like to assume things..and usually they are wrong.
As for the rest of the ridiculous comments in this thread...why...why on a development website would ANY moderator chase away a developer? Why...why would the owners allow that? Think about it! We do everything we can to help and work things out with developers...maybe you heard of something we have here...called Private Messaging!!!! Not to mention we have a very lenient system of dealing with rule breaking....people and especially developers get a whole lot of chances before even their first very short ban...then there are several of those before they work themselves into a permanent ban.
The problem is when these developers start demanding that moderators break the rules, or copyright, or licensing agreements just for them. Then they go berserk when moderators don't bend over backwards against licensing just for them, the oh so mighty developers! And somehow you want to blame moderators for their actions, ego and demands. Formats of this site are constantly changing for developers...they get free hosting on DevDB, can set their thread preferences on DevDB. Special Q&A threads were set up for developers so they can concentrate on development in their threads. Developer ONLY forums were created for them to work. I can list dozens of more things done just for developers but none of that matters obviously...only that your developer decided to leave over GPL. No, instead you think out of the 30,000 developers on this site, that the 50 moderators banded together to run off one guy....ludicrous!

KennyG123 said:
If you want your dirty laundry aired and not the pack of lies about "poor me voicing my opinion" I will be happy to post all your transgressions publicly with your permission. You are just like everyone else that received a short ban, then continued to break rules...it is always the evil moderators.
As for the rest of the ridiculous comments in this thread...why...why on a development website would ANY moderator chase away a developer? Why...why would the owners allow that? Think about it! We do everything we can to help and work things out with developers...maybe you heard of something we have here...called Private Messaging!!!! Not to mention we have a very lenient system of dealing with rule breaking....people and especially developers get a whole lot of chances before even their first very short ban...then there are several of those before they work themselves into a permanent ban.
The problem is when these developers start demanding that moderators break the rules, or copyright, or licensing agreements just for them. Then they go berserk when moderators don't bend over backwards against licensing just for them, the oh so mighty developers! And somehow you want to blame moderators for their actions, ego and demands. Formats of this site are constantly changing for developers...they get free hosting on DevDB, can set their thread preferences on DevDB. Special Q&A threads were set up for developers so they can concentrate on development in their threads. Developer ONLY forums were created for them to work. I can list dozens of more things done just for developers but none of that matters obviously...only that your developer decided to leave over GPL. No, instead you think out of the 30,000 developers on this site, that the 50 moderators banded together to run off one guy....ludicrous!
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I don't have any dirty laundry to hide...feel free to Pat anything you got with my name on it, but don't fabricate stuff, and sure you've my permission. And I'm NOT just like everyone else, another short sighted statement since you don't even know me. Also, pm is pm, but the OP asked for the moderators side of the story with all this, yet that wasn't addressed nor was anything other than my acting like a 2yr old....again an unwarranted insult, and another PM attempt to draw me into an argument. Air whatever you like, but know i can and will do the same.
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Rx8Driver said:
I don't have any dirty laundry to hide...feel free to Pat anything you got with my name on it, but don't fabricate stuff, and sure you've my permission. And I'm NOT just like everyone else, another short sighted statement since you don't even know me. Also, pm is pm, but the OP asked for the moderators side of the story with all this, yet that wasn't addressed nor was anything other than my acting like a 2yr old....again an unwarranted insult, and another PM attempt to draw me into an argument. Air whatever you like, but know i can and will do the same.
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Hi, feel free. Thanks for openly admitting you violated forum rules after the long post stating you were banned for 2 weeks for voicing your opinion. But at least you admitted it finally. I guess your statement that PM is PM, somehow means it is ok to lie to moderators then post how you got wronged..whatever.
As for everyone else in this thread concerned about reality and development...moderators want nothing but more development. We do not run off developers. And as stated we actually invest a lot of our volunteer time in PMs trying to work things out with developers. I have lots of developers that I talked out of leaving and they come to me with their issues...sometimes we can help them...sometimes we can't. In UITA's case. we couldn't because GPL rules over XDA rules. All kernel developers should know this when pulling code from any git. I have had many good conversations with UITA and he came to me often with issues. This time he came to me and asked about the ruling for kernels. I explained it to him and not even sure if he ever read it because he exploded at about the same time. I hope he takes this time to refresh and recharge and considers coming back after his "vacation." But that is up to him. I am here to work with him when he is ready to let him know the boundaries...the same boundaries that every one of the hundreds of kernel developers on XDA deal with.
The best thing to do might be to encourage UITA in PM to relax and work within the system and do what he does best. I can help him to ensure his credits are properly preserved in his commits and in threads. All he has to do is ask.

I will also add, YES i did in fact create an extra account. Plainly and openly...and it's here nor there because the root of the issue wasn't accounts...it was my opinion...creating an account to circumvent a ban is petty...at least when the ban is originally due to a difference of opinion and instead of working thru it whoever actually banned me decided to do that...
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---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------
If there's some other dirty laundry i got around here other than testing for devs and working on synapse profiles, and feedback on roms, and helping noobs find their way I'd love to see it...
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---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------
KennyG123 said:
If you want your dirty laundry aired and not the pack of lies about "poor me voicing my opinion" I will be happy to post all your transgressions publicly with your permission. You are just like everyone else that received a short ban, then continued to break rules...it is always the evil moderators. And to add to your character, you just lied about the other account in the PM you sent me and now here you admit to it...so why should anyone believe anything you say? Not trying to argue, but it gets tiresome seeing people post these "Poor me" posts and the "evil moderators" stuff. You don't think it hurts us to see that? We are volunteers just trying to give back to the forums we love so much. We try to keep the drama down because drama is NOT development. But people like to assume things..and usually they are wrong.
As for the rest of the ridiculous comments in this thread...why...why on a development website would ANY moderator chase away a developer? Why...why would the owners allow that? Think about it! We do everything we can to help and work things out with developers...maybe you heard of something we have here...called Private Messaging!!!! Not to mention we have a very lenient system of dealing with rule breaking....people and especially developers get a whole lot of chances before even their first very short ban...then there are several of those before they work themselves into a permanent ban.
The problem is when these developers start demanding that moderators break the rules, or copyright, or licensing agreements just for them. Then they go berserk when moderators don't bend over backwards against licensing just for them, the oh so mighty developers! And somehow you want to blame moderators for their actions, ego and demands. Formats of this site are constantly changing for developers...they get free hosting on DevDB, can set their thread preferences on DevDB. Special Q&A threads were set up for developers so they can concentrate on development in their threads. Developer ONLY forums were created for them to work. I can list dozens of more things done just for developers but none of that matters obviously...only that your developer decided to leave over GPL. No, instead you think out of the 30,000 developers on this site, that the 50 moderators banded together to run off one guy....ludicrous!
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And whoa whoa whoa...i never denied making that account. It's DroidPro35....i NEVER denied that, pm or not.
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---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 PM ----------
Lastly, and I'm finished with it is i have every pm between myself and bajanman and between myself and JJD...I'll gladly post them all, i was angrier two weeks ago, but there's nothing in any of them leading up to my ban that wasn't plain and simple language describing what's been transgressing here...and say what you will about uita, yeah he's got a reputation for being harsh, but over the past few months he'd come a long way from when he and i first "met"...I'd say, for him, publicly at least he'd been on his best behavior and even gentle on the noobs and all...
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---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------
Rx8Driver said:
Well, just to be perfectly "transparent", i don't even rightfully know how long my original ban was, but i DID just make another account and get an extra, oh i dunno week or something....does that make my bucket of lies an accurate account, @KennyG123 ?
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Did you mean here? Cuz i said DID....like not DIDNT...so like i did...and who cares if i admit it? The ban for that is already over...time served and all that...