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Dear dissatisfied HTC Customer,
Before reading this, remember I am NOT encouraging you to boycott HTC. But I think most of you, who are going to do that, are really knowing what your reasons are.
As For me it really seems that we paid for something that HTC did not provide, I think we all have seen great dissatisfaction and complaints here on the forums, which some of us are unable not to agree with. Some people even culminate the dissatisfaction simply by ending the customer relation with HTC.
I figured it would be nice to see how badly did their Kaiser backfire, and the way they handled their customers with this. So please, if you feel that you have had enough and are going separate ways with HTC, use the below link to inform HTC about your decision. Also remember to tell them why you chose to do so. Remember to add that you are talking about Kaiser. And also remember to tell them that you most likely won’t be recommending HTC devices to anyone, and will probably do your best that no-one gets screwed like you did, if you feel like that. That should teach them a lesson!
Also after doing that report back on this thread! So we get to see how it affected their customer base in this forum and hopefully even more widely, a bigger picture. With some math we can speculate what was the damage for them. Hopefully this will help them also to see what they did, and see it would have been everybodys benefit if they did things right at the first place.
Below are the links to inform HTC about your decision. You probably best to aim the e-mail to their "customer service"!
European ex-customers:
http://www.htc.com/europe/CS_Mail.aspx
North American ex-customers:
http://www.htc.com/us/CS_Mail.aspx
Latin American ex-customers:
http://www.htc.com/la/CS_Mail.aspx
Asian ex-customers:
http://www.htc.com/tw/CS_Mail.aspx
Middle-East and African ex-customers:
http://www.htc.com/mea-en/CS_Mail.aspx
The reason why I find this really important is that, we really need to get the information on their face. That is where petition signing and things like that fail! I bet after receiving few thousand of this kind of e-mails the information will be passed to the persons concerned. That will not probably help us, but prevent them repeating what they did. Link to this thread would also be good on any other HTC/Kaiser related forum, so we get a collection of all dissatisfied ex-customers overall.
Sincerely Yours,
Henry
Ultimately dissatisfied HTC-EX-customer
ps.
you are still "allowed" to use your current HTC devices the best way you can imagine, since most of us paid a good price for it! For me that would be a paperweight or as a "viviparous lizard's tail".
I just informed HTC-europe that I will never be their customer again! I WONT!
Edit.
Actually, what I did say was, I will boycott them until the justice has happened in this case. Too bad it seems that will never happen. But that will give them at least a little reason to do back the bad things they did to us. They would get me back!
Done.
I am in charge of mobile devices and syncing with Exchange for a 2500+ employee company. I had started migrating people to s620's but have since moved them to HP iPAQ Messengers until a non-HTC device comes out that fits our needs.
So, while I'm not buying any more, I'm making sure nobody at the company (even personal purchases) are HTC.
-Mc
sent to http://www.htc.com/sea/CS_Mail.aspx
hope others will follow........
Sent message to the North American link.
Boycott? Wow.. dunno but I'm very happy with my phone, ATT Tilt, it's an upgrade from my last smartphone/ppc (VOQ Professional Phone) which actually I still have and would still be using had the company not gone out of business, and well the phone doesn't have bluetooth, wifi or a camera either... if it did have those three things I've still be using it now really even if the company went under...
I don't get the Boycott though.. are people REALLY that unhappy with their phones? sure I see lots of complaints about things but I see that with EVERY phone on the market today, there IS NO perfect phone out there and never will be because someone will find something wrong no matter what...
dampeal said:
Boycott? Wow.. dunno but I'm very happy with my phone...
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Please do not go offtopic too much! I understand that there are A LOT of arguments why the Kaiser could be alright as a mobile device, but that is not the point here. The point is that any person has the right to boycott what ever company for any reason he/she finds worth it. I'm collecting that info here NOT DISCUSSING whether the device is worthy or not. Made up my mind already.
I admire the resolve of all that are willing to stand by thier principles. Personnaly, the choice of my next phone is limited to what my carrier has to offer as by buying from them, I get a large discount.
As my carrier is T-Mobile UK, that means my next upgrade will probably be a HTC device (maybe vario 4) for around 100gbp as opposed to a none HTC device from a store for around 400gbp.
When I first signed up for this forum I thought it was for developers and people who knew a lot about ppc's. I soon learned that this forum contains more friggin whiners than a daycare. Everyday someone posts something regarding video drivers, hating htc, or just writing stupid ****. To the OP, I am not directing this towards you, but I don't think developers or people who joined this forum for learning purposes want to hear about emailing HTC with others decision to boycott.
Hmmm, maybe I should start a thread "Email HTC your reasons why you love their devices here!"
Get a clue and understand these threads are not needed but we appreciate your participation and do not take anything personal because its directed at many people.
redbandana said:
When I first signed up for this forum I thought it was for developers and people who knew a lot about ppc's. I soon learned that this forum contains more friggin whiners than a daycare. Everyday someone posts something regarding video drivers, hating htc, or just writing stupid ****. To the OP, I am not directing this towards you, but I don't think developers or people who joined this forum for learning purposes want to hear about emailing HTC with others decision to boycott.
Hmmm, maybe I should start a thread "Email HTC your reasons why you love their devices here!"
Get a clue and understand these threads are not needed but we appreciate your participation and do not take anything personal because its directed at many people.
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Lol... I agree...I will never say never... If HTC launched a TyTN II killer I'd probably get it..If will never buy a Kaiser again though if it helps
redbandana said:
When I first signed up for this forum I thought it was for developers and people who knew a lot about ppc's. I soon learned that this forum contains more friggin whiners than a daycare. Everyday someone posts something regarding video drivers, hating htc, or just writing stupid ****.
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That's strange. Because when I visit http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=376, I see that there are four sections: one for discussion about accessories, one for discussion about software, one for discussion about ROMs, and this one for general discussion.
I notice that the developers tend to hang out in the software and ROMs sections, and that this general discussion forum is for general discussion.
Do you not have access to all four sections?
redbandana said:
When I first signed up for this forum I thought it was for developers and people who knew a lot about ppc's. I soon learned that this forum contains more friggin whiners than a daycare. ..
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Damn, don't know how to say this, remaining my relaxed tone.. but..
Don't you honestly think that this is the single BIGGEST community online using our beloved kaiser devices. Hopefully this does not come out of the blue for you, but there is something frikkin' wrong with the device we have bought.
There was 2 reasons for you why this kind of a threads easily pop out in GENERAL forums like this. Some people still want to get something in exchange for their money, not just crap.
Boycotting is useful, and it's the most powerful tool that single user can do against a company, which screwed him up without doing anything illeagal. This is where this forum could be helpful, here we have the people together. And if we complain together, maybe one day something gets done. Compare this to the situation between damn yankies and north korea for example. "Let's not give them what they want until they do what we want." Expect no nukes for the korea. You get it?
I feel sad that most of the people just accept the **** that big companies throw at you. I don't, A LOT of people won't accept that. Also, I'm completely sorry that I distracted you from your development work. Made you open this thread and whine about me whining.
And remember, this is nothing personal, there are a lot of you wankers out there whose fav hobby is to complain to n000bs and anything that.. that happens to annoy them at the time being. Then comes the bigger whiner, who whines about the whiner who whines about the whiner and that one is whining to whiner by the way.
You get the point? That there is a difference whining to other users and whining to wrong doers, who steal you money and feed you mouthful of poopi.
My message ... Europe Customer.
Drivers for Kaiser? No?
Then thank You, I will find my next device somewhere else, where I will really get what I paid for.
rakdoll said:
Damn, don't know how to say this, remaining my relaxed tone.. but..
Don't you honestly think that this is the single BIGGEST community online using our beloved kaiser devices. Hopefully this does not come out of the blue for you, but there is something frikkin' wrong with the device we have bought.
There was 2 reasons for you why this kind of a threads easily pop out in GENERAL forums like this. Some people still want to get something in exchange for their money, not just crap.
Boycotting is useful, and it's the most powerful tool that single user can do against a company, which screwed him up without doing anything illeagal. This is where this forum could be helpful, here we have the people together. And if we complain together, maybe one day something gets done. Compare this to the situation between damn yankies and north korea for example. "Let's not give them what they want until they do what we want." Expect no nukes for the korea. You get it?
I feel sad that most of the people just accept the **** that big companies throw at you. I don't, A LOT of people won't accept that. Also, I'm completely sorry that I distracted you from your development work. Made you open this thread and whine about me whining.
And remember, this is nothing personal, there are a lot of you wankers out there whose fav hobby is to complain to n000bs and anything that.. that happens to annoy them at the time being. Then comes the bigger whiner, who whines about the whiner who whines about the whiner and that one is whining to whiner by the way.
You get the point? That there is a difference whining to other users and whining to wrong doers, who steal you money and feed you mouthful of poopi.
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Well i certainly dont complain to n00bs unless there are threads similar to this. I should just ignore it for this point forward because we both have our opinions and neither is right nor wrong. Here is just a sample of what I do for n00bs:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=394543&highlight=stuck+bootloader
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2228402&highlight=redbandana#post2228402
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2228280&highlight=redbandana#post2228280
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=394657&page=2
and then some.
However, I do bash n00bs when there are posts bashing HTC. Sorry to offend you in anyway.
^^ I understand your frustration and i share similar sentiments with you. A similar thread was posted yesterday(you can find it on page 2) and the day before yesterday on the ROM dev. forum. It gets annoying after a while, thats all.
redbandana said:
Well i certainly dont complain to n00bs unless there are threads similar to this. I should just ignore it for this point forward because we both have our opinions and neither is right nor wrong. Here is just a sample of what I do for n00bs. ... . .
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Alright, It seems really we just happen to have our personal opinions, which we are completely righteous. I must admit I totally see your initial point, how this forum is built over the dedication of people who simply love to learn new things. It is totally frustrating nowadays to see people just complaining, without doing a **** about the real issues. I hope I didn't do exactly that, by starting this thread. The real reason to that is just, I would love to scare the **** out of HTC, make them see that they will go down if they don't respect us the way they should.
I do recognize what you stand for, and I must say there must not be anything that I wouldn't share with you. The thing that started this, must be that I have always been a man who stands behind his words, at least most of the time, and I assume the same from others. That includes all the big companies, groups and individuals. It really makes me sad to see where this world is going just because the only thing that matters to people is money. Huge corporations, sucking all the money they can, that's the end of people trying to provide just themselves.. no.. they want all that they can get. In the end, the one who pays the costs is dudes like us.
I honestly also didn't mean to offend anyone, and if it seemed so, I truly apologize. So in the end of the day, it seems like we are alone, with our Kaisers, trying to get the best out of it. So let's just keep on tuning it, until we are happy. That seems to be the initial purpose of this whole place's existence.
really sorry for my funny use of english, you native speakers must be laughing your asses off. But me not native, me from land of the barb-backed fishes. :|
I'm sure this awesome online community only makes up about less then half (if even) of tilt/kaiser/etc owners. There are many people that own this phone because they need it and never go online to mod it. Out of that assumed half I would say a 10th read what is posted or understand a single thing about this phone. That leaves a large number of people who think their phone is "crap" because you tell them it is. Yes I would like to see the phone be faster but I don't think it's crap nor do I think HTC has screwed me over. I don't seem to remember any stats that they released in regards to video or any other performance. Do you? Where are their benchmarks they advertised that weren't acheived by our lovely devices? If you can show them to me then I, and all of my friends will sign your wish list, but until I see them I will just think that everyone is butt hurt over an assumed performance loss.
HTC in my opinion has done something about this. Is it good enough to truely unlock the power of the Kaiser? No, but was it something rather then nothing? Do any of you know the cost of the video driver per unit? No, then how can people claim they paid for something they didn't get. How do you know it wouldn't have been another $50 that would have been tagged on. From what was advertised I will say I got 100% of what this phone was supposed to do.
ChumleyEX said:
From what was advertised I will say I got 100% of what this phone was supposed to do.
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This is strange opinion ..
because: when I bought the phone, I was thinkin buying the BEST phone in the market. Multimedia experience with keyboard.... Check the price and compare it to other older models if you know what I mean!
If I know it sooner I'd rather choose MWG, or iULTIMATE.. FOR SURE
I don't really care about support after market
But this laggy thing gives me s*it..... the fact that THIS THING DOESN'T have this BEFORE MARKET and they are HIDING THIS FACT!!!!
No multimedia experience only headache if you used it almost every time WITH touch screen... if... u know what I mean... do you??? or u just using it for modem only????
...bump
rajmagi said:
This is strange opinion ..
because: when I bought the phone, I was thinkin buying the BEST phone in the market. Multimedia experience with keyboard.... Check the price and compare it to other older models if you know what I mean!
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+1 Chumley I also go alot on the support forums for the iPhone, because my wife has an iPhone. If you were new to the iPhone you would think that it was the biggest piece of crap around. Thats all that is there is whining and complaining about how it doesn't work, Apple sold us a piece of crap . Here is a petition, let's put Apple out of business. As with all other forums a very vocal MINORITY of people who for whatever reason are having trouble with there phones.
Don't even get me started with the " Check the price, I thought I was getting the best " consumer strategy. I am just glad you don't buy my groceries.
I love my phone ,it does everything they told me it would do.It makes phone
calls, it schedules, MS Office is great, web access is great, I have push email, My gps works great etc... etc.....etc. Do I care that it doesn't have a Nikon D40 inside, do I care that I can't play WoW on it , do I care that I can't watch you tube all day at 3G on a battery charge? No ! This isn't what they promised me and this isn't what I bought my phone for.
Bottom line is, there are a million people out there that are perfectly satisfied with their HTC product. But we never hear from them. They are the silent majority. We here have to put up with thread after thread after thread because the vocal minority thinks we care that they bought a phone they don't like
STOP *****ing about Video Drivers. Who care. The phone is fine. You are forgetting that it's a PHONE! Be glad they added alot of extra stuff you can't find in a majority of phones. I have never had a problem watching videos and movies on my phone. Seriously.. geez
Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
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It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
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Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
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So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
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Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.
Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.
Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
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Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.
Hi all,
I would like to see if anyone has advice about that topic. I've asked lawyers and they all tell me that is always better to publish apps as a company (for example as an LLC), mainly because that gives you legal protection, in case something goes wrong with your app (you get sued for its contents, or copyright infringement, whatever...). Of course that means creating an LLC company, which has quite a bit of expenses associated with it...
I would like to get some advice about what to do in my situation. I have a full time job and I would like to start Android development more like a side job, slowly at the beginning and hopefully being able to make it a good source of income over time. But the moment I publish something I'm already "exposed" to the "dangers" I mention above... For what I've been told, publishing as a company gives you more "peace of mind", but in my case, at least at the beginning, would feel like a pretty big overkill...
Of course I would do my best to avoid any kind of potential legal problem with any app I make, but sometimes people sue other people for random stuff that you can't predict.
What are your opinions about this topic? Is it really not a big deal? Is there any resource with legal advice for developers on how to avoid potential lawsuits? Is it definitely recommended to publish as a company?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
I'm not a legal expert by any means, and if I was in your situation I would be in the exact same doubt you are, and I'm not sure there's a way out. Like you said, suing is unpredictable. However, I know a few developers with small apps on the store that never had any trouble. So maybe if you intend to write apps for the rest of your life, it's a good idea. If it's a one-time thing, maybe not. Sorry I can't help you.
Cidinho said:
I'm not a legal expert by any means, and if I was in your situation I would be in the exact same doubt you are, and I'm not sure there's a way out. Like you said, suing is unpredictable. However, I know a few developers with small apps on the store that never had any trouble. So maybe if you intend to write apps for the rest of your life, it's a good idea. If it's a one-time thing, maybe not. Sorry I can't help you.
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Thank you for your reply! It's okay if you're not a legal expert, I appreciate any opinion on this topic . I know already what the "best" thing to do would be from a legal perspective: create an LLC to be on the safe side. However, with this thread I intend to get the feel of the community, from the developers perspective: what's the general practice, any kind of advice to avoid trouble, etc...
About what my plans are, well I guess that the best way to put it is that I want to try, see how it goes, and if I see I can make decent income then keep doing it.
My dilemma is, then, is it worth creating a company just to try? Probably not, and most likely everything would be fine (I would do my best to stay out of trouble), but what if something actually goes wrong? This things can be unpredictable...
Maybe developers with some experience can advise on terms and conditions to use to protect the developer as much as possible. Like putting in the app's description stuff like "I'm not responsible if bla bla bla"... (this would be an example to avoid problems in case the app "breaks" someone's device).
I don't know, maybe I'm a little paranoid, but since I'm new to Android Development I'd like to know what developers with experience do in this matter.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
lebertian said:
Thank you for your reply! It's okay if you're not a legal expert, I appreciate any opinion on this topic . I know already what the "best" thing to do would be from a legal perspective: create an LLC to be on the safe side. However, with this thread I intend to get the feel of the community, from the developers perspective: what's the general practice, any kind of advice to avoid trouble, etc...
About what my plans are, well I guess that the best way to put it is that I want to try, see how it goes, and if I see I can make decent income then keep doing it.
My dilemma is, then, is it worth creating a company just to try? Probably not, and most likely everything would be fine (I would do my best to stay out of trouble), but what if something actually goes wrong? This things can be unpredictable...
Maybe developers with some experience can advise on terms and conditions to use to protect the developer as much as possible. Like putting in the app's description stuff like "I'm not responsible if bla bla bla"... (this would be an example to avoid problems in case the app "breaks" someone's device).
I don't know, maybe I'm a little paranoid, but since I'm new to Android Development I'd like to know what developers with experience do in this matter.
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
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I asked an accountancy company the same question and they said that it depends in the expected income. In my situation they suggested me to continue as a developer.
It does depend how much you will be making. If you make $1000 per year, it is hardly worth registering a company and suffering the extra tax headache it will give you. You will probably need to pay an accountant to sort it out. However once you get to a certain price point (I would say $15,000+) then you can get certain tax advantages, plus the limited liability that a company would give you.
Personally, I feel that the only time I'd change my developer name to a company name is if I'm working with another person on my apps. If it's just me working on my apps, then I'll keep the developer name as my real life name
I really appreciate all the responses. Is there any place where I can find guidelines to stay out of legal trouble when publishing mobile apps? I know the obvious ones, of course, but I'm sure that there are things that aren't so obvious and that they're good to keep in mind while developing an app... Or any advice that you guys have would be helpful too!
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
koftheworld said:
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
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I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
I didn't even read the article that you linked, however, I'd like to remind you that no one is forcing you to purchase anything? This is true with anything and everything. That's the problem with today's society, instant gratification and on the flip-side, a person's perceived right of entitlement. I say this all the time, if you don't like something, vote with your wallet. That goes for anything. I can't stand the fact that athletes and team owners make the amount of money they do, so I no longer pay to go to an event. I no longer pay to purchase swag, etc. I vote with my wallet.
Same here. If people have an issue with being charged for (I can't even call it root access), then don't buy it. It's really that simple.
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
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Of course I read the post. This is not the golden age of android hacking anymore. Everyone is looking to monetize due to the complexity of actually getting root/bootloader unlock as compared to how the OS was in the beginning. The community, the phones, and the OS were much different in the beginning. At this point in time, I think people who don't have these skills and willingly purchased locked down devices should have their wallets open if they want anything. Maybe with the next big OS we'll see a return to "hacker ethics", but now it's about getting paid for you think your work is worth.
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
Akrifay said:
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
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I understand where you are coming from. There are still those that do imbibe those ideals, but most of them have disappeared into nexus land or have taken jobs outside of XDA (like Hash).
Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
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Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
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I had never thought/considered that, but it makes sense.
orangechoochoo said:
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
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I have contributed to many a Dev over the years... I am not a Dev per say ... But i believe i am a Hacker by the true definition ... just happens not to be Android Software that i hack. It is amazing work that they do and i am very appreciative for it. But leave it up to the individual to "donate" ... I dont know guess im just an old schooler in a new schooler world lol
Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
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Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
Symbiontsoul said:
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
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Yay im getting through! lol
I forgot about the bounty. Did the guy get it? If so, then I it's odd that he is asking for additional payment too.
Edit- I see that the root bounty thread was closed be cause the rooter is requiring $20 payment t instead.
wow, XDA sure has changed over the years.
Akrifay said:
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
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Click to collapse
If I am to agree with you, I would like to see your free hack/exploit contribution to the community.
You aren't paying for a root method. The root method is explained. You're paying for the product that does it for you.
Akrifay said:
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
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Well, look at it this way. By the definition you posted, in that information should be free, maiko1 had no further responsibility to the community than to make a post and say "Hey, i found XYZ exploit. Do with it what you will." He did not have to say how that exploit specifically would allow us to gain root access, let alone make a tool that did it for us. All he had to do was publish the information. Then he would have been an "ethical hacker" according to your definition. Now, seeing as how in the post above the one i quoted, you stated you are not an Android developer, even if you had this information available for free, what would you do with it? By your own admittance you wouldnt be able to achieve root with just the information, you still needed a tool to do it for you. Someone has to develop this tool. There are no ethics for "ethical development" and certainly no expectation that it should be free. Developers work for money. Don't confuse hacking with developing. Hacking is finding exploits. Developing tools to take advantage of them is a whole other story.
Also, just to kill the whole "the hack should be free" argument :
As Stallman notes, "free" refers to unrestricted access; it does not refer to price.
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From the article you linked. You have access to the method and tool, he didnt root his own phone and keep it from the rest of us. Doesnt mean you shouldnt pay for it.
I can't speak for those behind the root "hack", but I know I don't work for free.
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
adrynalyne said:
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
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Furthermore, your skills aren't worthless either, so why should they be free?
Thankd to Kingroot I lost the chance at making around 400$ yesterday....i mean why have full legit trustable root from Sir [email protected] ...all my respect real talk...why have that when you could just have someone remote into your PC Today!!Not sold yet? They are more knowladgable then our entire brotherhood they will install a virus...i mean a harmless program thats steals your IMIE ..i mean completly brings your phone to its knees ...i mean will root your phone with one click.....please by all means gain a fake ...i mean kingsu binary...its so legit and only to be used by professional freelance phone modders....they will click....i mean one trick your phone....screw it these kids know what they are doing.. they had to put hundreds upon hundreds of hours behind a Linux Machine learning commands then the same plus sweat and tears into studying the Androids complete orgins and capabilities I mean i just dualboot Linux and run it as my main OS so how did i know that Android running off a Linux kernel actually uses kingsu....i forgot that command to enter my root folders on my Ubuntu OS after a fresh install was Sudo Kingsu.....hmmmm i dont blame nobody but these kids...they got no respect...i just Odind back to stock and deleted the custom recovery a fellow brother made and I tested becausr it literally must not get any better right.....gotta love that backup with the stock recovery....i cant wait to flash some scripts er KingRoms.....oh jusr roms ....oh not done in one click. ......no snapshot backup....i always hated inginuity behind TWRP . Made life to easy....now to just get rid of this 6 core Ryzen 1600x i have comming in the mail to build TWRPs ..port my own roms ....i just cant wait for Kingroot...ignorance and oblivion are going to be bliss!!!
I appreciate all you who do this for real and dont make money at it ....not my intentions either....only to bring other knowledge and the real deal..thats 100 ....withouth this community id probably of been one of those foolish customers and be smooth talked into lossing out on everything that is Droid and The Family and Community XDA is besides all the knowledge thats been struggled anf fought for so vigorously...So tonight I drink to you guys who fly true and i will be moving on to Computers and Website building with Php Sqlite Html5 and the rest...TO XDA FOREVER....NEVER SHEEP!!!!
Why you mad tho?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
passport619 said:
Why you mad tho?
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Mainly all the Hours Everyone at this forum Pours in this forum and website and countless sleepless nights doing it right. Not to mention hours I have put in to Learning these tricks that I have tried to pass along to those who
A. Are misguided or informed
B.Will eventually uses this Forum
C. Somehow will owe this site a nod of thanks for everything both proprietary and intellectual that is tireless fought hard to be kept both growing and safe.
D. Are ignorant and could uses a helping hand.
E. The misinformed and misguided once again cant forget that we may or may not have been *That Guy or Gal*
F. Security Threatend
G. Cold need some privacy and or Freedom.
I digress tho its mainly to watch someone pay 5-20$ to a kid whom instead rather push one button of a mouse ...Lazily I might add ....to either persuade a unknowing user to unknowingly temp root (i dont call it that..not the point.) and advertise it as geniune root. Or to have the blind leading the blind....idk if thats the buyer or the young person who illadvisedly or knowingly (whichever is worse is a matter of opinion.
So in hindsight I would say the ppl need this community just as I do...I feeling that just as much I do so they. That money could be in a developer,freelancer, specialist whom could teach them the tricks of the trade so openly given with no obligation at this sight.
That is why ....You tell me after a couple years being up night after night or just free time such as off days or spare time after school flipping from this site to your pc and then to yoyr smart phone repeadetly for whatever reasons or AndroPractices you may use.
Just to clarify I dont say that ive earned the right to any monetary or financial gain for any knowledge I may or may not have ....just a finders was saught as a Advising Freelancer fee to said knowledge gained and or leadership that towards what I believe this community stands in.
One might argue is in the end either helpful and or lifesaving to the health of their personal lives lived on a mobile device. Or just misuse ...idk yet ive only had the best of intentions to inform the potential or current user that there is a path well beaten...
My end goal is and always will be to enlighten or show the path to enlightenment ....be that such informative information as how to port a rom ....build a working recovery...unlock your bootloader ..or stuff maybe not regarded so highly but needed and sometimes daychangers and money savers like flashing to stock or usb tethering....even the stupid stuff like can you make me a rom for device 123H that ends up like nah ur bootloaders locked. Ive seen it transform into a full on discussion that sometimes meets goals that are like said example or they bring about some light that benefits the end user and reader in the end.
I guess I just apprecaite the small things in my life that could be entire careers work ( length and depth matters not)
* personal opinion only and a way to keep my intentions from being miscontrued preventing any offense I may or may not cause(d)*
Problems at home?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
I'm not sure who's selling what or where, but I'm going to end the ramblings here.
If someone is trying to sell a service on Xda, please report them with the report button on a relevant post or thread. Selling services is not allowed here.
If it's something that happened off of Xda, then please don't bring the drama here. :good:
And if I've mistaken the intend of this thread, my apologies. But it is definitely hard to follow.
Thread Closed.