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Android is open. That's why I have my Samsung Galaxy S, my Nexus One and my Sapphire.
I have these phones because the open community can do better than the professionals, and I am proud to be a member of a community that has recently hacked Froyo onto the G1, Android2HD2 (and other Winmo devices), created great skins and themes, rooted almost every droid to date, hacked google navigation to work in other countries etc etc etc.
There is amazing work being done is this community.
Kingklick was able to put out a lot of ROMs which satisfied a lot of people. Contributors to Cyanogenmod (disclaimer. notably not Cyanogen himself) and others (fans and friends - disclaimer. note lack of word fanboys - of cyanogenmod, disclaimer. plus some others too) have flamed and flamed away about Kangklick (notably via twitter - I have stopped following any of those jerks that clogged up my feeds with what could've - screw that - should've been settled MUCH more privately..I followed you guys for dev news or the occasional interesting insight into your real life, not your petty bickering, but you have every right to post what you like...hence why I stopped following you all, I didn't flame you...note 'bigger man').
Rule 12 of XDArules clearly states that using the work of others must be done with permission, independent of whether it is open source or not. If this is not upheld then the post will be bought down, it does not say the user will be banned. I would understand the formality of taking the post down and requesting Kingklick reposts the ROM with due credit, but I believe - note believe...implies opinion - that moderators may have been influenced by pressure from other (high ranking, public eye) members and thus did not adhere to normal or just (I do not know if not giving creds is normally treated in this way, but you will discover I believe it shouldn't be) protacol. Kingklick broke the rules of XDA, but then again I see his banning as the least contentious issue here.
I believe that members of the XDA community in the public eye (ie with large Twitter follower base) due to their work via XDA (no matter what you say, cyanogenmod may be based at its own domain, but it still posts at XDA to maintain its public profile and feed of the massive XDA userbase, and is hence in part bound by this) have a responsibility to follow the rules of XDA on XDA rules and disputes. I do not think this is something which can be policed ('I'm banning you Wes for Trolling Kingklick...on Twitter'... not gonna work) but I think it is a moral obligation (anyone that thinks the internet is not bound by morality should take a reality check...the reason why we have open source is essentially ethics).
Do we give credit to Linus Torvalds every time we distribute linux kernels or work to do with linux? Do we give credit to those that helped him create this base? Do we give credit to Google for creating Android? HTC? Our carriers? Martin Cooper for inventing the mobile phone and cell networks? Time Berners-Lee for inventing the internet, giving rise to this forum, Google and thus the Phones/Devices we love and use? The fact is we don't give credit where due (although you may say its obscure to thank these people, they DO deserve our thanks). None of the ROM chefs/coders give all credit where due, but a lot do in part, with those directly involved. But who still thanks the original rooters?
Kingklick has been declared a copier by the jury...I haven't delved through the evidence to confirm this...but shouldn't we be much more relaxed about copying in general? All users should be open about their work with Android, but they are not. If kingklick based a build off Cyanongenmod, and gave due credit for that, he would be called unoriginal, despite his attempts to make improvements. I also believe that there should be transparency, a log of all complaints of interest and the community told in a statement from the mods why someone was banned...at least in part (keeping gory details to themselves thank you very much).
Donations are generally given by 'end-users'...noobs who can flash and maybe do some work on the builds but their contributions are limited. End users generally want user experience, and reward devs with commendation and donations. If kingklick does work on a build which satisfies more users and he hence gets donations, is that stealing donations? No. The original dev works on an open source project knowing that their work is open, but the end user can reward as he/she likes. Perhaps kingklick developed his following due to his branding...he did always use words like FAST and STABLE and SMOOTH, but Apple do the same and they're not banned from trading despite the hyperbole.
I do not doubt that a lot of devs thanks fellow devs with donations. Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick, however a lot of donations come from end users, and if kingklick replaces a few files using winrar (something which I generally contest, I believe kingklick does a lot of great work) and that satisfies more end users by being fast and stable and smooth (or perceived as being so thanks to branding) then he can get donations for that, they are a gesture of satisfaction and goodwill.
Kingklick was immoral by not giving true credit, however I believe that he could have been warned and asked to give credit once he got back from his night out (whether that excuse, or what ever his actual excuse was, was true).
I also laugh at the accusation that kingklick does not fill a niche within the 'open'/'free' community. This should not result in grudges and flame wars, whether it is true or not. Kingklick did fill a niche in my opinion: reviewers (and consumers) see vanilla android as being sterile. Hell it is sterile, and it's never going to be as successful as others if it doesn't sort this out. Cyanogenmod and other big names are based off this sterile form of Android, but they don't delve into Sense UI and other alternative skins, mainly due to preferences or copyright problems etc, not that that stops them with other things. Kingklick did work with these and he filled his niche by delivering great, fast, usable roms of these whilst others sneered at them for being inefficient coding or whatever...geeky snobbery.
Kingklick also delivered various fixes and things which other groups did not. I won't list all of these and I am sure representatives of Cyanogenmob et al will say 'we were gonna fix these issues anyways' or 'that's redundant' or 'that was patchy code', but kingklick has contributed. Obviously we have to hold ethics above output, we can not say that 'his holiness' (inteneded to mock those who believe cyanogen alone is a god, not cyanogen himself) Cyanogen's contributions to android exempt him from following conduct, but we do a great job of driving away good developers with flaming and telling tales. Perhaps you'll say kingklick was not a good developer, Drizzy, even Haykuro etc etc, but I only flashed Cyanogenmod on my Nexus once and I didn't like it for various reasons (personal preference yada yada) but I kept going back for more kingklick...whether that's perceived speed and branding etc or just satisfaction.
King's desire roms are great, but we never mobbed, trolled and banned the poor guy for not giving creds to HTC. Surely the morality of our community using software like Rosie on the Nexus is more ethically questionable than a fellow member of XDA's work, since HTC is a firm which employs people. I bought a Nexus over the Desire because I knew I could still have Sense and a bigger dev community, however the cost included in the Desire which goes to the developers of Sense is hence forgone (perhaps indeirectly, I don;t know HTC internal funding); therefore I have - and anyone who has ever flashed a Sense ROM or devved with Sense - indirectly caused loss of welfare for people who rely of developing as their source of income, tehir families, communities and economies. Surely that is less ethical than not saying thank you, but XDA has no problem with that. Perhaps it is too small to notice, but it will have an indirect impact nonetheless.
Yes kingklick should've said his please and thank you, but I think it's community hyped double standards, pretensical courtesy (not that I wouldn't give creds, it's just that pleases and thank yous are nice, but not actually useful). A wise man once said 'there is no threshold for immorality', just because kingklick did a larger 'crime' than the rest of the community in not giving his thanks out, that does not exempt the other rule breakers (ie everyone), it just means their punishment should be less severe...we choose to ignore it because it's less direct or forgotten about.
In conclusion, I think we should start a 'contributors to Android' part of XDA, added to by mods or specifically appointed members of the community (like the portal). This could be informative and could mean that forgotten about contributors could not be forgotten, but their contributions immortalised in the open community of Android. Even if the contributions become redundant, they are the foundations for the next chapter in the Android story.
Finally. www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a very good read..and think about what AOSP stands for (I'll give you a clue...Android Open Source Project!). Can you steal what is open? What right have others to dictate what can and cannot be distributed in the open aspects of Android code (ie the underlying OS and vanilla UI...I'm not confused with Apps). Perhaps kingklick was guilty of plagiarism? But so is anyone that claims they worked really hard in that kernel without crediting Linus and leaving a donation link to his family or favourite charitable causes. Anyone that says I've reworked the UI without giving credits to The Astonishing Tribe for the original Android concepts which all UIs are based off...
Android is closed, that's why I question this 'community'.
I am not proud to be a member of this 'community'...right now.
Ps. Cyanogenmob was originally a typo (using words like mobbed in my piece...Freudian slip on the keyboard rather than fat finger syndrome)...but I kept it in as I thought it was funny...the Cyogenmob should replace team douche IMHO!
Wow, didn't realise how long it was...out of interest has anyone actually read the whole thing !?
Yeah, I read it and agree to some extent.
While what he did was wrong, he shouldn't be banned for it. I do not know all the circumstances around it but from what I read it appears he made sense UI for the Nexus one?
I believe that cyanogen is becoming more and more powerful as a body and it is starting to strong arm others when they believe they are in the wrong. I don't understand why people should shunned as he was simply because he didn't give due credit. From seeing all these devs get the boot from websites because they didn't give all the sources for their work. This is a major hinderance from some people wanting to develop new ROMs. I mean it seems that some people want to get credit for what they did and want to have the fame of what they developed, and not just because they wanted to further the development of phones and custom ROMS.
Some people may not agree with my stance, but I just think you give people another chance for slip ups like that one and not just a boot with no questions asked.
The problem is NOT just using other people work with/without permission...
The problem is cheating the users to get more donations:
Example:
-DevA: Oh, i've been 3 nights compiling the code for you all!!!!
-Users: Ohhh, thankyou, gonna donate for your hard work!!!
-DevA: Ok, here you have the link (and the download is from DevB work with a little text-editor touch-up).
That's not the way of doing things (imho)
sorry but no. the proper way is
devA: "i took all of jubeh's work and 'optimized a text file' and uploaded it, pretty awesome right?"
you: "cool story bro"
devA: "i need a new phone"
you: "im poor but wth if you keep not making your own work and ask for donations"
devA: "ya rly"
you: "maybe i should've donated to the guy that made this all and not the one that file pushed the wifi files over... =("
wow lets have some proof of this please and i quote "Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick" we know cyan does but prove king does if not take the statement out
If King put in the same amount of effort HazzBazz put in to creating this thread/writing that ever so long first post, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But really, did we need another thread on this topic ? I lost track but theres been atleast 10+ threads discussing this and all resulting in a lock/user under investigation.
See guys no one from cm contributors told anyone bout banning kk but yes every one was angry that he never gave credit to anyone. We told him a hundred time already to give credit. I don't know if bbannin does justice here but still he violated a lot of rules. He never released his kernel source. Never gave credits for others hard work. Bout drizzy he got banned for scamming a user. It's not winrar but winzip Get ur facts right. We r talking bout crediting the work of the community. If u do something spending day n night on expecting nothing but some respect or credit for ur work u get angry in ur language doing 1 month job n not getting paid. I would recommend u all try contributing before writing such justifications n flames n more. So kingklick was wrong n given many warnings before being banned. He was not a bad dev or something but as I told u reward for a contributor is credits. Bout donating I guess from tomorrow I'll start packaging cm froyo nightlys change the name of the Rom post it n start asking for donations. I'll even put some unicorns n ponies in it for u guys so it ismagical. N if u thing stuff can be fixed without the source u r wrong. For fixing 99% percent of stuff u need to know how to work with source n compile. Rest 1% are silver by pushing files. And again no one from cm asked any mod to ban him. It was their internal decision. There was no influence whatsoever
And one more thing. U all remember Eugene whom u all made run away from magic n dream. He even caught kingklick using his work by adding a coded name oc the Rom that clearly said Eugene n this made king cry. He started accepting he used Eugene work then more proofs came in of he just changing build.prop n posting as his
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
enatefox said:
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
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I lawl'd.
I don't have enough money for my family, but you can have some. Where's your donate link you hard worker?
tl;dr
enatefox said:
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
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Damn man, that site is stupid fast
Im poor and living on the streets but i cant imagine how much work it must've been. Im donating to u
AnderWeb said:
The problem is NOT just using other people work with/without permission...
The problem is cheating the users to get more donations:
Example:
-DevA: Oh, i've been 3 nights compiling the code for you all!!!!
-Users: Ohhh, thankyou, gonna donate for your hard work!!!
-DevA: Ok, here you have the link (and the download is from DevB work with a little text-editor touch-up).
That's not the way of doing things (imho)
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Kingklick developed a fanbase. If they donated is that a crime? He didn't hold for ransom, he just released work without due credit, perhaps mostly someone else's work (havent seen evidence) and hey I put a paper out last term without my complete bibliography done because I was so excited to get it out and I was going away for a week...I finished it off over the break and put it out when I was back, funny that didn't start a war on the internet.
enatefox said:
sorry but no. the proper way is
devA: "i took all of jubeh's work and 'optimized a text file' and uploaded it, pretty awesome right?"
you: "cool story bro"
devA: "i need a new phone"
you: "im poor but wth if you keep not making your own work and ask for donations"
devA: "ya rly"
you: "maybe i should've donated to the guy that made this all and not the one that file pushed the wifi files over... =("
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I like how you're not using any form of personal attack in discussing this issue...give me an example of when kingklick asked asked for donations...theyre just appreciated. And hell did Jubreh give credit to ALL the people who helped him...Linus Torvalds etc? No, so we are all in part imperfect for not giving 'full credit'...call me anal or not.
Daneshm90 said:
If King put in the same amount of effort HazzBazz put in to creating this thread/writing that ever so long first post, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But really, did we need another thread on this topic ? I lost track but theres been atleast 10+ threads discussing this and all resulting in a lock/user under investigation.
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None of them were philosophical...Ive just finished my second year on joint honours in Philosophy so I find it interesting...and it's not exactly an effort to pile out this when I did it all through term time anyway.
charnsingh_online said:
It's not winrar but winzip Get ur facts right.
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LOL I guess that makes me an invalid...nice
charnsingh_online said:
We r talking bout crediting the work of the community. If u do something spending day n night on expecting nothing but some respect or credit for ur work u get angry in ur language doing 1 month job n not getting paid.
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well uhhhh no its not because you expect to be paid for your job, and in fact you have legal rights ...open source developing is COMPLETELY different
charnsingh_online said:
I would recommend u all try contributing
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True yeah we should all try it...I'm hoping to do computer science post-grad if I get a first...but we dont all have the time or the expertise. I do some file pushing for myself, but I dont release it because if I did (despite getting my roms running fast and to my liking) I'd get slated by some snooty coders and fanboys.
charnsingh_online said:
before writing such justifications n flames n more.
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nb. see lack of flaming...
charnsingh_online said:
It was their internal decision. There was no influence whatsoever
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Try twitter.com and look at a lot of members of Cyanogenmob's (still sticking by that, will use that in non-derogatory circumstances, still revelling in the typo!) tweets.
And hey if kingklick can deliver to the end users then there's no use slagging him off...youre equally insulting anyone that thought his roms were good. His slide rom has so much positive feedback for instance.
JAguirre1231 said:
I lawl'd.
I don't have enough money for my family, but you can have some. Where's your donate link you hard worker?
tl;dr
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Daneshm90 said:
Damn man, that site is stupid fast
Im poor and living on the streets but i cant imagine how much work it must've been. Im donating to u
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Yay mock donators now too.
HazzBazz, since you're gonna be like this here goes:
We all know the kangers. They're everywhere from your local grocer to the bus driver. Yes, kangers live peacefully among us. What you didn't know is that the real issue, for me at least, is that when I had my old Windows phone w/Android ported on it, we would bust our asses off (look at the Vogue thread) and people would micro-manage or "release" our work as theirs. Basically we would bust our asses off for free (never have I ever asked for a donation nor have I received a single penny for my time) and these people would zip it up and host it on their own site and build a fan base.
Ok so what right? well the people that post in those threads then have bugs to report. who do they report them too? the guy that said he made the ROM-- not us. he says "lolz i don't know guys" then we fix it then he gets thanked. then, he gets the donation. it pisses me off and I never got paid. imagine the unemployed devs out there.
You can at least see my point, right?
F'sure. Hence why I dont release anything. But to you guys kangers are pests. I do not doubt that kangers should be policed. However the credit issue is something which is neglected at a small level by everyone, so no one is perfect...and the great thing about a big site like xda is that most kangers on other websites have tiny fanbases.
I respect your work because of its own credence, and plagiarism will sure as hell piss anyone off who puts time into things, but we must remember that these are donations, given freely. I think we should do more to inform the 'end users' than ban and drive away devs who deliver what some users want...albeit with some undue credit (inform..allow the end users to make informed decisions).
HazzBazz said:
Kingklick developed a fanbase. If they donated is that a crime? He didn't hold for ransom, he just released work without due credit, perhaps mostly someone else's work (havent seen evidence)
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I will stop you there as the rest of what you say is boring.
Oh and use the search button or cache on google to find(as you call it) evidence
Have a Nice Day
If you like my work, buy bill gates a stuffed penguin.
Love it yeah. Your logical, fair and anticipatory argument leaves me speechless.
'Rest of what you say is boring'...darn I'm upset and speechless...that hurts. It's like Primary school bullies here, only fails.
With regard to 'haven't seen evidence'...I wasn't saying kingklick did or did not do that or this...Im simply saying I (personally) havent seen the evidence (not because it doesn't exist or does exist), but ultimately Kingklick was found guilty of using someone else's work without saying please and thankyou, and was hence driven away from us.
I will be hated on, but I don't care. Bring the King back. I love his Desire Sense UI ROM's.
I must say to the people who brick thier phones and tablets... shame on you!
You dont read or follow full directions before doing something, or you really arent techincal minded and cant admit you shouldnt be doing these things to your phones/tablets. and then go and brick them.
Now this isnt the problem I have (i fell bad for those who have).
My problem is with the people who then lie and call up the maker of the phone and make up some bull to get a new one, or return it to the store and lie to get a new one.
YOu people are the reason why more equipment makers wont lower thier prices and wont open thier systems up to people who accually know what they are doing.
You make it more expensive on everyone. I read post after post of people who return thier phones/tablets they have bricked for new ones. post after post of people just buying every tablet in site to "TRY IT OUT" and then return them before the dead line.
YOU people are why these things are so exspensive.
MY local best buy I kid you not had more tablets and ipads as open box buys then they had new ones. salesman told me all people are doing is buying screwing with them for a few days and then returning. then no one wants the open box ones because you dont know what people did to them.
Grow up if you break something its your fault not the manufactures why should they replace it? if you dont want something DONT BUY IT!!! dont buy it with the intention of playing with it then returning it thats just wrong.
You are one hundred per cent correct.
I'll use your thread as a bit of a chance to vent, this is not directed at you and apologies in advance
I am sick and tired of God-damn kiddies popping up here, loading software onto their phones, cocking it up because they haven't done the reading or just have no f*cking idea, then demanding a f*cking walkthrough on how to pull themselves out of the sh*t step-by-step, or as you stated (and worse) returning their devices to get a new one, driving up prices and promoting manufacturers to lock their devices up tighter and tighter. It's an absolute disgrace.
So many users these days seem to have a God complex, an over-bundance of self-righteousness and an expectation that they deserve everything on a bloody silver platter.
Never ceases to amaze me that these idiots are willing to try everything posted here at the drop of a hat without waiting for bugs to pop up or even seeing if it bricks a device. Everyone wants the best right now, and then wants top-notch support to go with it. Just because it f*cking looks pretty.
Motorola have the right idea. Lock everything up tight, offer the option of unlocking, and void the warranty immediately. That's a damn good business practice. Keeps Developers happy (they can start work immediately without all the unlocking/S-OFF bullsh*t), and, you would think, would make people think twice about what they're doing before they unlock their bootloaders. Still doesn't seem to work this way though, hey?
It's for this reason I have absolutely no problem with manufacturers locking their devices. It's a dickhead deterrent. Doesn't phase a good Developer, but the idiots and general masses (myself included) are stuck, and they don't have to replace our phones because we didn't read or didn't understand, or wanted the best without doing anything to deserve it.
Noone wants to take responsibility for their own actions. If a Dev's ROM doesn't work for someone, all of a sudden it's the Devs fault. Nevermind they didn't read the instructions, FAQs and whatever else may have been there. Christ I saw someone create a thread to demand a step-by-step walkthrough and download of ADB just before. What the f*ck? More importantly, what the f*ck are you doing here without doing any reading or research at all?
/rant
Again mate, my apologies. I just agree with you, and I like the fact you've got 20-odd posts and 4 thanks already. You can have another one for your troubles!
The biggest issue I have is when a dev. writes an unlock code for a newer phone and it gets released to the public, freeing that phone from being locked down, but also opening it up to a whole slew of idiots that should't be allowed to have a miniUSB cable in their home.
I can honestly say that I have NEVER bricked a phone. I will say I have had issues come up, but never enough to consider the phone an expensive paperweight.
Currently I am working on porting the Android 1.6 rom from the Dream G1 to the HTC Raphael, a perfect example of software being the main contributor to sales volume.
The Dream has less RAM and NAND memory, less keys on the keyboard and a lower resolution screen than the Raphael, but since it has Android installed it sold quite a bit more than the more feature-laden Raphael.
If I brick the Raphael there's no big loss, It was a free phone...
I tend to cover every aspect when looking into cooking or building roms and anroid installs, unlike most who will flash their phone with something completely wrong for their device.
To any of the "kiddies" reading this, RESEARCH your device, RESEARCH the phone you're about to flash it to and RESEARCH known problems after install so you don't post flames to the OP of the ROM/build! Most good cooks will post known problems with their ROMs' and even tell you if you need to flash a different radio or not.
I hate seeing 300+ replies to a ROM posting... Most of the info is in the FIRST or SECOND post, unless otherwize stated by the OP.
(I needed to rant... sorry if I offended anyone)
PoXFreak said:
The biggest issue I have is when a dev. writes an unlock code for a newer phone and it gets released to the public, freeing that phone from being locked down, but also opening it up to a whole slew of idiots that should't be allowed to have a miniUSB cable in their home.
I can honestly say that I have NEVER bricked a phone. I will say I have had issues come up, but never enough to consider the phone an expensive paperweight.
Currently I am working on porting the Android 1.6 rom from the Dream G1 to the HTC Raphael, a perfect example of software being the main contributor to sales volume.
The Dream has less RAM and NAND memory, less keys on the keyboard and a lower resolution screen than the Raphael, but since it has Android installed it sold quite a bit more than the more feature-laden Raphael.
If I brick the Raphael there's no big loss, It was a free phone...
I tend to cover every aspect when looking into cooking or building roms and anroid installs, unlike most who will flash their phone with something completely wrong for their device.
To any of the "kiddies" reading this, RESEARCH your device, RESEARCH the phone you're about to flash it to and RESEARCH known problems after install so you don't post flames to the OP of the ROM/build! Most good cooks will post known problems with their ROMs' and even tell you if you need to flash a different radio or not.
I hate seeing 300+ replies to a ROM posting... Most of the info is in the FIRST or SECOND post, unless otherwize stated by the OP.
(I needed to rant... sorry if I offended anyone)
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This.
Firstly, good luck with your project. I have an old Raphael here so if I can be of help testing or whatever, let me know.
Second, you're exactly right. If you do the research, the issues you run into generally aren't overwhelming, and because you've read you already know what to do if you run into them. It's the kids that come in with their new toy, try and flash **** and **** it up, then expect the whole forum to bend over backwards to provide everything they need to fix their f*ck up. If they'd done what they should have done in the first place, we wouldn't be having this conversation!
First off let me say thanks for the support on my forum topic. I was a "noob" as well at one time. Heck we are all "noobs" with each new rom,tablet,sdk,phone,o.s. that hits the streets as each one has its own set of issues and work arounds.
For example when I went to root my dell streak 7 I read up on it, I read about all the options and how they worked , looked for what problems others had, if it was even a good option for me at the time. Then i took what seemed the most popular option and what seemed to work best for others. and while reading up on the process i came across the adb stuff as mentioned before.
I was like holy crap whats all that I have to do. Well at least I have a back ground in modding and computer repaires going back years so I have the means to understand what i am reading.
But like mentioned before most of these people have no idea what adb is or how to set it up or even use it, they just jump right in with the first half ass'd wrote tutorial that useually leaves a set out and bingo they brick thier device.
Then go and return or send it in for replacement jacking up the cost for everyone else.
All I can say is read read read read read read read oh and READ some more before you go and think your a hacker and mess with your 500 dollar phone or tablet. then go cry and want a free replacement when YOU screw it up.
IM not perfect I bricked the hell out of a nook color BUT If you calm down go on the net and look chances are someone else has done the same thing and the information is out there to undo it just like i found and now my nook is all happy.
IT is very rare that these devices are UNFIXABLE almost 98% of any thing you do to it can be undone if you dont have the knowledge to undo what you have done then you should not be messing with it in the first place period.
and if you have screwed it up dont go run to the store or the warrenty hot line with a bag full of lies. Cowboy up and take the blame dont expect others to bail you out and put even more ecnomic hardships and tighter lock downs on the rest of us becasue that is all your doing.
On the lighter side LOL please excuse my grammer,puctuation,spelling and so forth I get so into my posts sometimes I dont pay any attention lol. Then when I se the post I go wow I look like an idiot but a lazy one I dont bother to fix it .
sorry, but you are completely wrong. This is absolutely not how market works.
The price is not calculated and is not at all based on how many of devices get broken - which is how they are classified.
If all, then on contrary, the price may be reduced to reflect percentage of returned pieces. But again there is no dependence here.
Moreover, those devices will get reused, and will add on statistics to show problem with flashing, based on which they may try to make flashing more easy and foolproof. Yes maybe they'll decide to close some holes and make it more difficult to customize, but they might also decide to loose security here a little.
Look at HTC, you probably would agree they know about custom rom reflashing and I would say they even pulled some ropes to make it possible or easier.
It's market again, people who put custom ROM in their phone are more like pda freaks, specialist and their friends know them as such and when buying a phone asks them for opinion. So it's good for them to keep us, pda freaks, happy and allow us to tamper with their phones to be so.
Agree 110% that users should read, read, read and ask questions to be sure they fully understand what they are doing and the consequences before trying modifications. They should be held responsible for their actions. Hard-working developers waste far too much time bailing out fools from their own foolishness.
There should be far more posts like in this thread all over the internet.
papo said:
sorry, but you are completely wrong. This is absolutely not how market works.
The price is not calculated and is not at all based on how many of devices get broken - which is how they are classified.
If all, then on contrary, the price may be reduced to reflect percentage of returned pieces. But again there is no dependence here.
Moreover, those devices will get reused, and will add on statistics to show problem with flashing, based on which they may try to make flashing more easy and foolproof. Yes maybe they'll decide to close some holes and make it more difficult to customize, but they might also decide to loose security here a little.
Look at HTC, you probably would agree they know about custom rom reflashing and I would say they even pulled some ropes to make it possible or easier.
It's market again, people who put custom ROM in their phone are more like pda freaks, specialist and their friends know them as such and when buying a phone asks them for opinion. So it's good for them to keep us, pda freaks, happy and allow us to tamper with their phones to be so.
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Hum ... maybe you are right but maybe you are wrong. let me tell you my opinion of why I think you are wrong.
You say that all these returned devices that people jack up dont affect the market but somehow help the numbers?
OK I myself and most other people I know, if you go into a best buy lets say for the sake of argument and they have 2 tablets on the self One is brand new never been owned sealed up at 299.99. and the other is 10% off (I thinkthat is thier standard drop for open box) open box buy. what one are you gonna chose? knowing what people do with these things I dont know about you but to me the 30 bucks savings isnt worth the hassle of returning it when it doesnt work or to find out someone monkeyed with it. And i feel i am not alone and why there are so many open box buys sitting around on shelves.
Walmart doesnt restock returned tablets or phones doesnt matter if they are working or not they return everything to the manufacturer.
Manufacturers by law cannot resell a used item as new it has to be listed as refurbished.
so where do all these refurbished tablets go??? I dont see them. does anyone here have one? No they go to sleasy civic center electronics shows for resell at nearkly full retail and who buys them? no one at that pric people would rather have a new one. not to mention by the time the refubished junk makes its rounds to be resold its outdated and everyone wants the new thing.
Dont believe me there are stil factory refubished sega dreamcasts for sale on the internet... thats like form what 12 years ago.
all this material sitting arund DOES affect the prices we pay manufactures cant have 300 million in feurbished items sitting arund unsold with out it affecting its bottom line. so who pays for it... we do with higher prices.
also with that many items comming in defective they know which ones were hacked and messed up and which ones where manufacturing defects. when you get 100's of millions in loses do to people messing around with and screwing up your product YES you will lock it down more to make it harder.
Lets put this into a laymans terms.. lets say you own and run a chair store yes all you make are chairs. this month you made 100 chairs. well lets say 50 of them came back for refunds because people used them as something to stand on and broke them. so now your company is running at a greater then 60% loss. not only are you out the retail money for the chairs, your out the labor, the material, and the cost of now doing something with all the broken chairs. whicj included fixing them and then resellig them on a secondary market for less then the original retail. at this point your out a wad of cash and no body wants to buy your once broken chairs.
OK so now how do you go about correcting the problem you have keep people from breaking your chairs so you get less returns and there fore have a better bottom line so now you have to buy stornger wood, stronger glue, and make a more robust chair that people cant break.
all of this drives your costs up and profits down so what do you do?? Thats right you increase the cost of the chair.
You maybe right I dont think I have any idea how a market works.
i agree, just like real life, things come with inscructions for a reason.
i mean, if you buy a peice of furniture from ikea...well, good luck even with the inscructions (i flipping hate ikea, to many parts to assemble)
but the point is, they are there to show you what do to, i managed to read them, and i got my skyraider (i want to flash to a 2.3 rom, but, due to bugs and reading alot of them are glitchy, gonna hold off on that for a while.
I'm not gonna lie, I bricked my first Android phone, However.. HTC Replaced the internals Not everyone that does this is a noob, it only takes 1 mistake or 1 panic to they do something and it breaks Mine bricked flashing a radio (I had read no instructions) I saw the phone with a triangle on when it rebooted and was like ahh?! Have I broke it and ripped the battery out.. Which did infact break it However rooting etc. where to even download the tools needed you have to read through very simple step by step instructions which are HARD not to do exactly as said Then maybe I don't see how people end up breaking them
I have issues with these noobs wanting one click, exploits for everything and then when you.. (okay, I) suggest maybe, they actually learn, how to do it by long division...ie the "long way"...I get told to "get with the times" and "I, don't need too"....No?, well don't come crying to, me when something goes, wrong....I'll be too busy playing around on MY device....THAT ACTUALLY WORKS....
Sent using two tin cans and some string.....
Babydoll25 said:
I have issues with these noobs wanting one click, exploits for everything and then when you.. (okay, I) suggest maybe, they actually learn, how to do it by long division...ie the "long way"...I get told to "get with the times" and "I, don't need too"....No?, well don't come crying to, me when something goes, wrong....I'll be too busy playing around on MY device....THAT ACTUALLY WORKS....
Sent using two tin cans and some string.....
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Damn right. You tell someone to go and do the 'hard' work themselves, all of a sudden these pr*cks step up and have the nerve to call you out. I'm sorry, but this place needs assholes, and lots of them. Kiddies will never learn if they're spoon-fed everything. Nothing teaches you something quicker than a smack on the ass.
I don't see anything at all wrong with calling out n00bs and serving a few idiots, provided it's done civilly. You'll always upset some people, but you can't be all things to all people, and I'd much rather be thought of as an asshole here and do my bit to cut down the bullsh*t, than sit idly by and watch this place die.
I can see it over in the desire hd forums too(and i bet it's the same situaion on other forums too). There are more and more people who are too stupid to read one of the guides in the dev section. We have dozens of threads on how to downgrade/ s-off. And these aren't just for the lulz.
Everyday we get tons of new threads like "HALP MEH I HAZ NO TAIM TO READ TEH GUIDES SO PLIZ HALP MEH UNLOCKING MAH PHONE!!!!!!!!!" or "I NO HAS READ GUIDE AND I NOW ONLY HAS WHITE HTC SCREEN!!!!11"...
It seems that they haven't even clicked one single time on the Dev-section before creating a new thread about a bootloop or anything else.
And last but no least: the search button.
It's the same story again. The forum is full of questions that were answered like a billion times in the past.
Guys, when will you realise it? It takes some effort to make our phones working as we want them to. And the most important thing to do is reading. Read the guides some users put a lot of effort in. Read them to understand your device better and read them just to hit the Thanks Button on the bottom of the guide.
Sent out of my Free Candy Van.
MacaronyMax said:
I'm not gonna lie, I bricked my first Android phone, However.. HTC Replaced the internals Not everyone that does this is a noob, it only takes 1 mistake or 1 panic to they do something and it breaks Mine bricked flashing a radio (I had read no instructions) I saw the phone with a triangle on when it rebooted and was like ahh?! Have I broke it and ripped the battery out.. Which did infact break it However rooting etc. where to even download the tools needed you have to read through very simple step by step instructions which are HARD not to do exactly as said Then maybe I don't see how people end up breaking them
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because noobs think they can do everything in one-shot and end up getting bit on the ass
plus one rom i had to go back and wipe it 4 times before it finally booted back the startup loop
so, trial and error and paitionce also is important.
Babydoll25 said:
I have issues with these noobs wanting one click, exploits for everything and then when you.. (okay, I) suggest maybe, they actually learn, how to do it by long division...ie the "long way"...I get told to "get with the times" and "I, don't need too"....No?, well don't come crying to, me when something goes, wrong....I'll be too busy playing around on MY device....THAT ACTUALLY WORKS....
Sent using two tin cans and some string.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no, those aren;'t noobs, those are lazy people. they think technology will be instant...no, sorry never will, people get new tv's and think that everything will be setup out of the box, sadly this is why they have techs who have to come out and set the thing up for you because you were too ****ing lazy to take 30 minutes to an hour and do it yourself and save a buttload of money.
and how I rooted and got my roms on there? i read inscructions.....and Cvbcbcmv's video :/
Oh you poor OP. When will you learn?
Everyone was born unique. Therefore, everyone who was born falls on a different spot on the normal IQ curve. For everyone who is smart, quiet, listens to instructions, and respectful, there will be one d1ckwad on the other end of the equation (stupid, noisy, jumps the gun, and douchey).
From my experience, I know that I can only pray for these people and get the heck out of the dev section unless I need a new ROM.
But, all said and done, don't be discouraged by these id10ts, and continue to believe in humanity, or at least in me. I have never bricked my Desire, and the one time I was >< this close to bricking it, I knew what I did wrong and was prepared to fully accept the price of my stupidity. I have also read the instruction manual that came with my phone end to end (barring the index pages, anyway).
sakai4eva said:
Oh you poor OP. When will you learn?
Everyone was born unique. Therefore, everyone who was born falls on a different spot on the normal IQ curve. For everyone who is smart, quiet, listens to instructions, and respectful, there will be one d1ckwad on the other end of the equation (stupid, noisy, jumps the gun, and douchey).
From my experience, I know that I can only pray for these people and get the heck out of the dev section unless I need a new ROM.
But, all said and done, don't be discouraged by these id10ts, and continue to believe in humanity, or at least in me. I have never bricked my Desire, and the one time I was >< this close to bricking it, I knew what I did wrong and was prepared to fully accept the price of my stupidity. I have also read the instruction manual that came with my phone end to end (barring the index pages, anyway).
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Correction. Three dickwads
juzz86 said:
Correction. Three dickwads
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If XDA have this button called "follow", I'd click on it right now.
sakai4eva said:
If XDA have this button called "follow", I'd click on it right now.
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Click to collapse
Cheers mate.
Unfortunately, some clowns are even beyond prayers. Look at how many threads there are for the f*cking Photon 4G. You'd think someone would have a look first, hey?
I don't want to be a Senior Member anymore. I want my user tag to be 'Ban Hammer'. Then watch me go!
Juzz86 - Ban Hammer
EDIT: Nice t1ts
The quote is funnier when you finally get the innuendos.
This is gonna be a book post, so grab a drink, sit down & READ THE WHOLE THING!
Okay, I was a happily retired moderator with little time for babysitting & hand holding, but after nearly two decades of being involved with mobile development from Palm to the device & OS that really started this (Blue Angel PPC2002/PPC2003/PPC2003SE) I will be damned if I am going to let ANYONE ruin the major development repository for what is arguably the best device HTC has made to date. Yes, it was also the worst marketed & whomever handled the marketing plan for the Holiday Series should be selling used cars (Not that there's anything wrong with that, they were just obviously out of their league with the Vivid), however I digress.
I cook roms, I tweak things & talk & have help fix issues for more chef's than I can count. I don't do public releases & I stopped doing custom builds for Senior Members a long time ago. I am here purely for the advancement of mobile development, to learn & to help those that truly take the time to learn.
First things first, this is a development thread. If you are not a developer (I'm not, not really) you must realize that we are working with Alpha's, Beta's & sometime code & data from completely different device manufacturers. This means that there is a certain amount of inherent risk envolved, ALWAYS. This is evidenced & acknowledged by every single person that DECIDED to ignore the warnings issued by HTC as well as the developers here & agreed to the terms when they unlocked their device. "Unlocking your device is DANGEROUS & may VOID your warranty."
I own several devices, as do the former Dev's of this sub-forum. The reason we all are, or were, here is because we all agreed that despite HTC's fumble with the device, it is a fresh design from the rubberized slabs & plastic toys we've seen lately & the device is truly a powerhouse when configured correctly. None of us have to develop, not for the public, and for those that do, I can tell you it's not for the money nor the fame. If it was for fame the folks that left wouldn't be working from blog space & small sites. Sure, there are always glory hounds, but the Developers in Vivid are about the pursuit of perfection, nothing more. Roms are not made by a single person, many have a hand in adding or modifying portions of a rom. This means that when you slam or disrespect a chef or rom, you are telling six or more people that you do not appreciate their work. There will always be difference of opinion, but when that occurs, I expect you to handle it like a man (or woman) & use the Personal Message system this site offers. Even in those cases, I demand no less than respect & civility when communicating & you all agreed to that when you registered here at XDA. Failure to do so CAN & WILL BE GROUNDS FOR A BAN OF APPROPRIATE LENGTH.
Now, I am not a new Mod & XDA has seen fit to call me back to active duty as a Global Moderator, not a forum moderator, & that alone should tell you how frelled the vivid section has become. I am not here to power trip, don't want to ban anyone & hate cleaning useless posts from threads. But I have agreed to do just that until we can all become a happy family
I am working on getting all the dev's back here that left as well as getting some support from some of the more populated forum threads. This will be more & more important as fragmentation goes away & Android becomes more unified. ICS is a step in that direction, Android 5.0 will almost be there completely.
You may not know it yet, but HTC knows they built a great device in the Holiday line & we have already seen ICS release roms for the US AT&T variant. They went & integrated beats & discussion is taking place about a possible Sense 4.0 version for the Holiday. Not a kanged version, but a true to goodness OEM complete with source code & all. While most other devices are still working with leaked versions & test betas, we have an honest to goodness Release version of ICS with some already even getting OTA updates as well. The Vivid is one of a handful of devices that can more than adequately run the same software versions as the newly unveiled One Series, only the Vivid doesn't look like a Sensation mated with a Flyer. I know most of the developers that left, some more than others & I am working on bringing them back to the XDA table. You see, when a developer leaves we get fragmentation. We also usually lose a lot of work from other rom team members, themers, coders, tweakers, hackers, kernel builders, etc...
It would be rather simple for a good Sensation developer to get us a great recovery, provide us with pointers on things they have found with getting ICS to run smoothly as they have been working with api 15 for longer than most Vivid dev's. Unfortunately, they see the Vivid forum as the red headed bastard stepchild of XDA & right now we are. Winter is over & never before have I seen so many developers fky away like a flock heading back north. They all left or are on the fence about leaving. That says something. It's not one high maintenance chef whining & leaving. It is a whole group of Dev's & the supporting members from all over the world leaving. That tells me something is broken, seriously broken & that you as Vivid forum participants have failed the developers & the community. We are broken & need to fix ourselves & learn to police ourselves to become whole again. Do you like stock roms? are you 100% satisfied with whomevers rom you are using? I hope the answer is yes, because unless we pull together & make changes you are gonna be stuck with what you have. Sure, more cooks will emerge. But every rom team member is exceptional at certain things & without them future roms will be lacking in certain areas.
At any rate I digress. Many of you know me. I am honest & fair. I am here, & XDA agreed, as a Hail Mary, to properly support the forum & to try a save the Vivid section from failing. The number one rule here from now on is: Be courteous, respectful & honorable; and if you can't do that....I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance & furious anger those who would attempt to poison our developers & destroy my forum.
THIS IS YOUR WARNING: I am an American, so Baseball is my countries pastime, right? Just like baseball I am immediately instituting a three strikes policy. Each strike will incur penalty on a progressive scale ending with me petitioning to permanently ban you if needed. And be advise that if you post useless or negative to development threads, expect them to be deleted. Just be smart & always take a minute to think things thru before posting & doing irreparable damage. Words are like currency, you can always save them & they'll be there later if needed, but let them burn a hole in your pocket & spend them to soon...You're broke & there's no getting them back.
Now I am stickying this thread & will be leaving it open for a short while. I am doing this to give you a chance to kindly ask the dev's that left to come back & where appropriate make amends or apologize for any personal attacks that were made publicly. If you wrote it where everyone could read it, you should have the fortitude to make it right publicly. If not, then I again refer you to the Personal Message utility provided to you by XDA.
Nicely written.
+1 on bringing back the Devs
Please come back This forum wouldn't be anywhere near as inventive and informative if we didn't have our devs.
Excellent post as well
Im glad to see you stepping in and trying to help the other mods get a handle on things.
I love our phone just like most of the other users here, and have been dissapointed with the state of our forum for the last few weeks. I know the dev who left are still interested in our device as they took their roms elsewhere. Maybe with these current event they will consider coming back. We can only hope, XDA has been a great repository of roms and the help we might need with them. Lets not fragment our resources anymore then it already is.
All I can say is WOW that was greatly written!!
You know what really sucks I have been a member for what i consider to be a long time, I have flashed 1000s of rom's on I don't how many phones and read probably millions of posts! This site is my addiction I read it every day. And over the last couple of months it has just gotten horrible, ridiculous and childish on both sides the noobs and the Dev's! Now DONT GET ME WRONG!! I love and admire everyone who develops, cooks and contributes to the forum. I admit I could never deal with all crap that some noobs and some not so noobs! It is not only this forum it seems to be wide spread even down to the scamming going on at the market place!!! It has honestly made me not want to come to XDA which really sucks.I have all ways looked at XDA as one of the best community's/families i have ever worked with. Just think about how many country's, languages,class,s of life white collar,blue collar and every where in between!!! Just like any family/community you have problems and you find way's to work through the hard times and it makes you stronger so I just plead to all the Developers to try to work whit us. Even if you just post your work and then just have a question and answer sec. and let the community answer the questions. Im just saying there has to be a solution!!
Okay I'm done Rambling!! Thank You to the Mods to for trying to hold it all together!! OK now i'm done!
Wow, it's good to hear something positive around here. You might this sections savoir.
WOW! Great post, thank you very much!
I think we ALL want to run the latest and greatest Android version on the best possible ROM ever on our beloved Holiday. Most are anxious about it and, at the same time, do not want to brick their expensive phones. This being said, this shouldn't be a motivation for ANYONE to bash on the developers.
Like a lot of people, I bought my HTC Raider knowing that, at that time, the development wasn't too far. I was glad to see dev's coming in the Raider/Vivid/Holiday/Velocity family. I was friggin' happy when I saw the first ROM available for my phone! I also flashed at my own risk, knowing I was maybe scarifying my $600 CAD phone.
I, as a relatively new comer, learned from it: do not ask questions that you can easily find answers for by searching the forum. While this is not the (only) reason why so many devs have left, I would like to apologize for my few n00b questions that I may have asked previously. I learned from it and will now properly search before asking.
PLEASE, let's put these few problems aside and let's be a big nice community once again!
I hope we'll see devs back here once again!
This is my first HTC since buying my HTC Dream back in the infancy of android and I was saddened to see how things have turned on this board.
For every Samsung and LG device I have owned there has always been a thriving community of people who have an understanding and work together. However none have ever had the same feeling when I owned an HTC and was part of the community that made the Dream(G1) what it is, an icon. I so wish to be apart of something like that again with this, arguably the best HTC device, as GSLEON3 put it and would love to make it the next big thing.
I understand if the Devs don't come back but I certainly hope they do. There is a lot of work for us to get done and we really need all the amazing talented individuals we can get.
I agree and its getting old visting 20 sites
Xda should be a place where devs can release there work and the community can help each other out not bark at the devs and chase them out, a place where everyone can contribute in one way or another
come at me bro said:
I agree and its getting old visting 20 sites
Xda should be a place where devs can release there work and the community can help each other out not bark at the devs and chase them out, a place where everyone can contribute in one way or another
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I think That that should become our mission statement "a place where everyone can AND SHOULD contribute in one way or another"
This is nice,
well said GSLEON3, i'm happy to see this.
i've been around xda for a while and had my share of phones and not a single one wasn't modified in a way shape or form from xda so when i picked up a vivid 2 weeks ago, it was my first choice but i'm stuck with at&t for now and besides the inspire 4g it's the only other decent phone that fits my needs and wants and regardless of how heavy it is, it's worth it. I was so disappointed and sad, mainly so sad when i saw what was happening, and by tuesday night i was like this isn't gona work for me, i'm gona be stuck with the stock gb rom or stock ics which i can't stand, i just wanted a fully functioning runnymed port but i was disappointed that the bootloader can only be unlocked through htcdev which then voids my warranty while i didn't have that issue with all the previous phones so i never hesitated to root, flash recovery and the roms of my choice. titanium and nandroid backups were like my best non human friends lol. when all this started happening and pretty much everyone was gone, i was like this isn't gona work, saw a report in the portal for a sense port to the nexus s one for ics and one for gb that had almost everything working, so i figured let me see how much i can buy a nexus s for and found a really good deal so i bought it the next day and put my vivid up for sale, i havent sold it yet, and i've been coming around to see if anything has changed, and now that it has i might reconsider and keep it, sell the nexus s and hopefully things get rolling again and we can all have the vivid the way we want. so sorry for making this even longer than i anticipated but hopefully the devs will see this and do come back, and that we do get help from other devs and new ones, i mean having phones like the hd2, mytouch 4g inspire 4g, sensation, the forums on those are filled, even the nexus s i can't keep or find a rom that i like, there r just so many options left and right so i hope that the vivid will become like that soon and yeah i dunno call me crazy or something but like i said earlier, i would be very happy if bootloader can be unlocked without htcdev that is relockable with no trace and to have a fully working gb rom with sense 3.5 like the runnymed, i couldn't be happier with the phone like that. I know there is the holiraider and it looks pretty good but i just don't know if i'm ready to take the plunge for just 1 potential rom, so hope all goes well and things develop but this has so much potential so i think i'm gona hold on to the vivid for now and see this thing come back to normal and flourish
Thank you for the breath of fresh air of logic that has come back to this forum. Sadly, I have been hesitant to visit this forum because of all the drama that has occurred as of late about the development of a better rom for our devices.
As you said, there is a reason we all purchased this device over others and it's well clear that there needs to be more work done for it by those who have the skills to do so.
Well said, although this may have been posted a little to late.
I hope that the dev here does continue, but it is looking bleak!
thanks
Very nice write up / read, I'm new to XDA and android altogether. I think this a great device and the few ROMS I've flashed had little or no issues. The work the DEV's have put into these is incredible to say the least. I would love to see all this mess cleared and bring the Vivid development back on track to unleash the full potential that it really possesses.
..
Thank you for this post. I've been more of a xda lurker for the longest time (on other phone forums) and I was happy to be getting in on the sort of ground floor of development for the vivid.. I walked away for a month to take care of some life items and I came back hoping to see some big improvements, instead there is just a load of closed dev threads. It's sad to see that few people not acting civil put things where we are today.
I really hope you can help bring some sanity back to this sector and with that sanity maybe some of the devs will be back too.
superb article. thanks for the great post. something needed to be said!i would imagine that with 4,000,000+ users were gonna have trolls, so i hope the trolls migrate to your post
Thank You!
There is yet hope, Also as stated by the OP, We all did agree to treating people with respect. This is a huge community with all levels of users from Devs and folks that build awesome things to others just starting out with their 1st smartphone (Simple rule, think before you post). This device line could become great. Please let's all do what we can to help this along.
Cheers
BR
Excellent post, I appreciate the time you took to write it, I wish reading it were a requirement of joining the XDA site. I've been flashing roms since I had an HTC Touch Diamond. I confess to being a flashaholic and my worst fear is to lose access to XDA and it's excellent developers because of the rude and immature members that I see regularly. So many don't bother to read and feel they are entitled to the work that the devs do for free.
All I can say is this is awesome, nice to see someone taking the time to help the vivid dev section.
I so miss the help and work by Pirateghost and Wild Child, and whom ever else was contributing.
While i left for only 2 weeks to setup another phone to use, i still have my raider ready and free to help debug and test as needed. Please don't allow a few bad apples to ruin it for the rest of us.
And if I may, maybe we as xda members can share in the task of keeping the forum in check.
EX: see an inappropriate post, flag it for a moderator to address it.
As for GSLEON3, thanks for taking the time to address the forum. hats off to you.
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
koftheworld said:
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
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I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
I didn't even read the article that you linked, however, I'd like to remind you that no one is forcing you to purchase anything? This is true with anything and everything. That's the problem with today's society, instant gratification and on the flip-side, a person's perceived right of entitlement. I say this all the time, if you don't like something, vote with your wallet. That goes for anything. I can't stand the fact that athletes and team owners make the amount of money they do, so I no longer pay to go to an event. I no longer pay to purchase swag, etc. I vote with my wallet.
Same here. If people have an issue with being charged for (I can't even call it root access), then don't buy it. It's really that simple.
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
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Of course I read the post. This is not the golden age of android hacking anymore. Everyone is looking to monetize due to the complexity of actually getting root/bootloader unlock as compared to how the OS was in the beginning. The community, the phones, and the OS were much different in the beginning. At this point in time, I think people who don't have these skills and willingly purchased locked down devices should have their wallets open if they want anything. Maybe with the next big OS we'll see a return to "hacker ethics", but now it's about getting paid for you think your work is worth.
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
Akrifay said:
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
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I understand where you are coming from. There are still those that do imbibe those ideals, but most of them have disappeared into nexus land or have taken jobs outside of XDA (like Hash).
Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
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Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
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I had never thought/considered that, but it makes sense.
orangechoochoo said:
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
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I have contributed to many a Dev over the years... I am not a Dev per say ... But i believe i am a Hacker by the true definition ... just happens not to be Android Software that i hack. It is amazing work that they do and i am very appreciative for it. But leave it up to the individual to "donate" ... I dont know guess im just an old schooler in a new schooler world lol
Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
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Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
Symbiontsoul said:
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
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Yay im getting through! lol
I forgot about the bounty. Did the guy get it? If so, then I it's odd that he is asking for additional payment too.
Edit- I see that the root bounty thread was closed be cause the rooter is requiring $20 payment t instead.
wow, XDA sure has changed over the years.
Akrifay said:
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
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If I am to agree with you, I would like to see your free hack/exploit contribution to the community.
You aren't paying for a root method. The root method is explained. You're paying for the product that does it for you.
Akrifay said:
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
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Well, look at it this way. By the definition you posted, in that information should be free, maiko1 had no further responsibility to the community than to make a post and say "Hey, i found XYZ exploit. Do with it what you will." He did not have to say how that exploit specifically would allow us to gain root access, let alone make a tool that did it for us. All he had to do was publish the information. Then he would have been an "ethical hacker" according to your definition. Now, seeing as how in the post above the one i quoted, you stated you are not an Android developer, even if you had this information available for free, what would you do with it? By your own admittance you wouldnt be able to achieve root with just the information, you still needed a tool to do it for you. Someone has to develop this tool. There are no ethics for "ethical development" and certainly no expectation that it should be free. Developers work for money. Don't confuse hacking with developing. Hacking is finding exploits. Developing tools to take advantage of them is a whole other story.
Also, just to kill the whole "the hack should be free" argument :
As Stallman notes, "free" refers to unrestricted access; it does not refer to price.
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From the article you linked. You have access to the method and tool, he didnt root his own phone and keep it from the rest of us. Doesnt mean you shouldnt pay for it.
I can't speak for those behind the root "hack", but I know I don't work for free.
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
adrynalyne said:
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
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Furthermore, your skills aren't worthless either, so why should they be free?
This thread is OT. It is a place for the freedom of speech.
I believe that XDA needs such a place more than ever.
Here you can discuss and share your opinion about ANY matter. No censorship here, as long as you follow the standard rules of conduct you are also using in the real world. You can share your opinion, even if some won’t agree/won’t like it, as long as you are still polite in the way you express yourself.
*****
As a starter i want to bring up a topic that does bother many of you too for sure. It’s about that XDA is becoming a place where people come to make money more and more. One thing that concerns me most of all at the moment is the current S-OFF situation of several devices.
This text here was made by me and @neniick and it represents our opinion about something, that could not have been discussed anywhere for a long time now, although it’s a topic up-to-the-minute.
We dont want to disrespect jcase or beaups or any dev for that matter, we all know they put hours of work into these exploits to get it working and make it user friendly.
BUT they sell their product, and they ask a way too high amount for it. We get that they need to buy phones and tools for these exploits, their website/ hosting costs etc, but think about it, if only 1000 people use sunshine, they get $25000(!). thats just insane. Also, this is not xda sharing anymore, this is pure business. Business because they can. Because they are the only ones able to do this.
And for us, the argument that their work is of a “higher” quality than the work/contributions of others is invalid in our opinion. We believe in SHARING. Everyone gives the community what he is CAPABLE of. There is NO need to distinguish the “deliverables”. Every dev/modder/whatever contributes time in his own way. BUT NO ONE charges anything for it. You can donate if you want to of course, but no one is allowed to CHARGE something. It just doesn’t match the spirit of XDA. Something that was possible only some time ago, is now not “possible” anymore to be shared for free… C’mon.
We really think xda is going down the way things are going right now. We would not use sunshine s-off, since it goes just against what XDA stands for (or at least once did), and that should not be supported. People are abusing their monopoly. It's about making money. Not about helping/doing it for the community anymore, don't even mention "sharing". Of course nobody owes anything to anyone here.
But that's exactly the point. They don't owe us s-off, but also, they should not be allowed to sell it here. There are xda rules applying to everyone, no matter what they do/share here. No matter if you are a simple member or a mega-dev/mega-ultra-mod.
But mysteriously, with sunshine it gets tolerated. Remember revone/moonshine/rumrunner s-off solutions? They were all free. You could donate if you wanted to show your appreciation. But what happens now is monopolization. And greed. And we don't think this is fair. And we won't support it. This is simple abuse of "market position". Also we won’t just shut up about it.
That you can't say anything about/against it anymore without being attacked/censored/etc. anymore... It proves everything we said. We most likely will get nearly banned for this statement now and these open words. And that's exactly what should make us start thinking people. We need to start a discussion here.
We won't go s-off this way. We just can't stand this behaviour anymore. And we think many of you guys are thinking the same way.
We should set an example against capitalism on xda. Capitalism that does not even try to hide anymore.
Now we would really like to hear about the opinions of you guys
herwegan said:
This thread is OT. It is a place for the freedom of speech.
I believe that XDA needs such a place more than ever.
Here you can discuss and share your opinion about ANY matter. No censorship here, as long as you follow the standard rules of conduct you are also using in the real world. You can share your opinion, even if some won’t agree/won’t like it, as long as you are still polite in the way you express yourself.
*****
As a starter i want to bring up a topic that does bother many of you too for sure. It’s about that XDA is becoming a place where people come to make money more and more. One thing that concerns me most of all at the moment is the current S-OFF situation of several devices.
This text here was made by me and @neniick and it represents our opinion about something, that could not have been discussed anywhere for a long time now, although it’s a topic up-to-the-minute.
We dont want to disrespect jcase or beaups or any dev for that matter, we all know they put hours of work into these exploits to get it working and make it user friendly.
BUT they sell their product, and they ask a way too high amount for it. We get that they need to buy phones and tools for these exploits, their website/ hosting costs etc, but think about it, if only 1000 people use sunshine, they get $25000(!). thats just insane. Also, this is not xda sharing anymore, this is pure business. Business because they can. Because they are the only ones able to do this.
And for us, the argument that their work is of a “higher” quality than the work/contributions of others is invalid in our opinion. We believe in SHARING. Everyone gives the community what he is CAPABLE of. There is NO need to distinguish the “deliverables”. Every dev/modder/whatever contributes time in his own way. BUT NO ONE charges anything for it. You can donate if you want to of course, but no one is allowed to CHARGE something. It just doesn’t match the spirit of XDA. Something that was possible only some time ago, is now not “possible” anymore to be shared for free… C’mon.
We really think xda is going down the way things are going right now. We would not use sunshine s-off, since it goes just against what XDA stands for (or at least once did), and that should not be supported. People are abusing their monopoly. It's about making money. Not about helping/doing it for the community anymore, don't even mention "sharing". Of course nobody owes anything to anyone here.
But that's exactly the point. They don't owe us s-off, but also, they should not be allowed to sell it here. There are xda rules applying to everyone, no matter what they do/share here. No matter if you are a simple member or a mega-dev/mega-ultra-mod.
But mysteriously, with sunshine it gets tolerated. Remember revone/moonshine/rumrunner s-off solutions? They were all free. You could donate if you wanted to show your appreciation. But what happens now is monopolization. And greed. And we don't think this is fair. And we won't support it. This is simple abuse of "market position". Also we won’t just shut up about it.
That you can't say anything about/against it anymore without being attacked/censored/etc. anymore... It proves everything we said. We most likely will get nearly banned for this statement now and these open words. And that's exactly what should make us start thinking people. We need to start a discussion here.
We won't go s-off this way. We just can't stand this behaviour anymore. And we think many of you guys are thinking the same way.
We should set an example against capitalism on xda. Capitalism that does not even try to hide anymore.
Now we would really like to hear about the opinions of you guys
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Click to collapse
+1
thread moved to here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/general/general/discussion-freedom-speech-thread-share-t3083156