I've found a couple of companies that specialize in developing drivers for handheld devices, one of them is particulary interesting as it has done exactly what we're looking for before. I need someone who can talk to them and get them all the details and specs.
Here's the correspondence so far:
Me to them:
'm writing on behalf of HTC Kaiser owners. It's pretty much well
known to whoever is interested in PDAs that HTC has shipped many of its
recent devices without proper video drivers. They have a Qualcomm chipset
with (reportedly) ATI Imageon hardware acceleration in it, but not enabled
or not properly used. We've collected a good sum of money to get those
drivers developed, and I wanted to ask whether your company can help us with
this. More info (including specifics of the problem) can be found here:
http://www.htcwiki.com/page/HTC+TyTN+II+Driver+Issues and here:
www.htcclassaction.org Please let me know whether you can help us with that
and we can talk about compensation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They answered:
Thank you for contacting ALT Software.
We would be happy to discuss your requirements with you. As you may be
aware, ALT has been developing software driver solutions for our clients for
over 13 years now. Our team has extensive experience in creating system and
embedded level software. In fact ALT supports a variety of ATI chips within
our own OpenGL product line, as well as having been engaged by AMD/ATI on
other software development projects enabling new chips for the HDTV and set
top box industry.
ALT definitely has the ability to support your group; however the key
component that may be lacking is access to the hardware specifications,
registry specs for the chip, and existing driver source from ATI & Qualcomm.
Does your group have access to those specifications? Without that
information, it would make the task monumental.
Are you able to provide me with a ballpark on the budget your group has set
aside for this work?
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Thanks,
Rob
Robert ********* - Sales Manager
ALT Software Inc.
****************
****************
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've answered:
Thanks for getting back to us.
Here's the basic info on the chipset: http://www.qualcomm.com/press/releases/2006/060404_sampling_msm7200_chipset.html
There are a lot of senior developers in the community, I'm sure I can get more details on the problem and about the chipset from them. HTC also promised to release some kind of a fix for video rendering that may help you.
So far we've collected over $4000 for this, and if more is needed - I'm sure people will pile in more as they will see that someone is working on it.
Let me get some people who know drivers better than me so that we can provide better details.
In the meantime, let me know what the price range for this could be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I covered the contact info so that he doesn't get swarmed with descriptions. We need to keep this at a reasonable level. I will give his email and phone to however decides to handle this.
Wow, cool man. I'm just afraid we don't have enough specs from HTC to get the project going...
That's where the money come in. I just need someone who can talk hardware to these guys and figure out the details.
Good legwork. I would think a company like this would want to charge at least 50-100k considering the impact. But I could be WAY off(hopefully). You may want to mention to them the high profile this issue has gotten and that they could potentially come out of all of this as hero's and get a lot of good publicity which may add a lot of value instead of cash...
Yeah I was just thinking about that. We could use publicity.
So far however, they want to know the extent of the problem.. They wanna know how much work is needed (understandably). That's why I need someone who has whatever info we can possibly have about this.
bump this...important.
DarkDvr said:
Yeah I was just thinking about that. We could use publicity.
So far however, they want to know the extent of the problem.. They wanna know how much work is needed (understandably). That's why I need someone who has whatever info we can possibly have about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your best bet is Chainfire. Have you PM'd him?
Well, they are looking for a job that's $20K+, large scale projects. I tried to persuade them with publicity and ease of the project... but they declined.
However, they recommended finding someone on scguild.com.
I'll try that today...
If anybody has any leads - let us know.
Perhaps we should consider taking this approach
Show this company figures that represent the number of units the Kaiser and its variations have shown.
Let them know we will raise money up front to get them started.
Let them know they can make money by charing fro a fix and give them the numbers to back it up.
For example:
If 1 million people (and I read here at xda that it is in fact more than that, but I DO NOT KNOW) have bought the Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II etc etc etc and only 5% of the purchasers buy a fix at lets say $20 then they stand to make $250,000 in addition to whatever start up costs we can give them.
If we get this (or another) company to commit to doing this, and we get an upfront number they require to start the development, then we have a solid goal. We then start a campaign not only at xda, but worldwide, involve the media who has covered this story. The media entities who have covered this to date, have a great follow up story. This in turn gets the coverage needed to show them enough people will buy the fix after development.
For example, they might say "We will be willing to develop this for $XXXXX upfront if outlets exist where we can be assured there is DISTRIBUTION for the fix.
We then have a goal:
Start a world wide campaign to raise the upfront costs.
Secure distribution at every pocket pc software sales site we can contact.
They just might go for it.
That is a lot of money!
Money talks. Publicity seems like a good idea, but they want cash. Show them this is but one way of how to get it!!!!!!
mrmega said:
Perhaps we should consider taking this approach
Show this company figures that represent the number of units the Kaiser and its variations have shown.
Let them know we will raise money up front to get them started.
Let them know they can make money by charing fro a fix and give them the numbers to back it up.
For example:
If 1 million people (and I read here at xda that it is in fact more than that, but I DO NOT KNOW) have bought the Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II etc etc etc and only 5% of the purchasers buy a fix at lets say $20 then they stand to make $250,000 in addition to whatever start up costs we can give them.
If we get this (or another) company to commit to doing this, and we get an upfront number they require to start the development, then we have a solid goal. We then start a campaign not only at xda, but worldwide, involve the media who has covered this story. The media entities who have covered this to date, have a great follow up story. This in turn gets the coverage needed to show them enough people will buy the fix after development.
For example, they might say "We will be willing to develop this for $XXXXX upfront if outlets exist where we can be assured there is DISTRIBUTION for the fix.
We then have a goal:
Start a world wide campaign to raise the upfront costs.
Secure distribution at every pocket pc software sales site we can contact.
They just might go for it.
That is a lot of money!
Money talks. Publicity seems like a good idea, but they want cash. Show them this is but one way of how to get it!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldnt personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Good idea, I like it.
I'm not giving up - still searching and spamming developers who would be interested in this. If anybody else googles driver development companies - that'd make it easier and faster for us all.
I've got a good description of the problem (thanks Chainfire) which you can use to describe the problem:
"The problem with the current drivers is that they essentially just dump the completely software rendered screen on to the display memory, and that's pretty much all they do. Direct3D and OpenGL ES drivers are missing completely.
No use is made of any sort of acceleration that is provided by the ATI Imageon technology used in these Qualcomm MSM7200/MSM7500 based devices.
What we want are GDI / DDI, DirectDraw/3D, OpenGL ES and GAPI drivers that do make use of the available hardware acceleration."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thefunkygibbon said:
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldnt personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All we need is 1 ROM with proper drivers in it. Everything else is easy.
however the key component that may be lacking is access to the hardware specifications, registry specs for the chip, and existing driver source from ATI & Qualcomm.
I'm not a pro, but isn't that just the problem??
That's just what's needed, and no one seems to have it. (Or is willing to provide)
$20 000 is not that much. Thats just $20 from 1000 people.
Imagine selling the driver for $20. Way more than 1000 people would buy it. I dont think this amount of money needs to be an obstacle.
Surur
Er...
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TELL THEN HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE!!!!!
Geez people!
You ALWAYS ASK A PRICE QUOTE AND THEN HAGGLE!!!!
They say, so you got 4k... we want 10k+
BUT
if you ask a price range, they dont know how much we have, and then cant ask double for it. Understand?
Time to start with a new company...
Hehe, well these guys' problem was not really the money, it was the volume as he himself said.
His words:
"Unfortunately, ALT will have to decline this scope.
You may have better luck looking to a individual contractor boards such as www.scguild.com."
But point taken. I've ran through that website and wrote to many potential graphics driver developers... we'll see what they say.
thefunkygibbon said:
but charging for the fix? it would presumably need to be built into a rom rather than installed seperately. how could they charge for it when we would be cooking roms with it in for free to download? and if we are doing that still then thats quite a bit out of order really. I wouldn't personally like to see us lot cooking roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only suggested my idea because we are talking about a 3rd party developing this for us, not HTC. I am not a developer so I don't know how the fix would be applied so please forgive my lack of understanding of how the fix needs to be applied.
If it is a driver, and the devs here would have to cook it into a rom or roms then maybe we are only paying for the driver.
All I can say is that we have a goal, and if HTC wont give give us what we need, and if none of the developers here can succeed then we we have to consider resorting to going to a 3rd party company to develop the solution.
A 3rd party company is only going to be interested in the $$$. I can only speak for myself, but if my choices are to have no drivers or to pay for them... I, like everyone else who pledged to the bounty thread will GLADLY pay to get this issue fixed.
Do I want to pay? NO! HTC should have given this to us but they did not so I don't know what else to suggest.
How about these:
http://www.pfaadtsoft.de/
Here's some stuff I found on MSDN:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890622.aspx
I haven't bothered reading it but the title looked interesting
This section in general might hold interesting info:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447511.aspx
undac said:
How about these:
http://www.pfaadtsoft.de/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
good find, email sent.
Here's some stuff I found on MSDN:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms890622.aspx
I haven't bothered reading it but the title looked interesting
This section in general might hold interesting info:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447511.aspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's to whoever understands driver better than me.
I'd be willing to chip in a good amount. Was already looking into other companies fixing the problem, but they would need a lot of information that only Qualcomm and HTC have. :\
Related
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.
Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.
Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo
rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.
jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!
pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.
Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too
BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.
rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??
Dear all,
I am calling for all help to put pressure to HTC Firmware Engineering/Support team.
Please help to do your part as a Kaiser/TyTn II/Tilt user and pester HTC.
You can help by doing the following:
1) Call them up daily
2) Send them 3 - 5 emails daily on the HWA issue (http://member.htc.com/CustomerService/CS_Mail.aspx) I strongly suggest this.
If there any kind fellow member with a good written complaint email, please paste it up to the thread so that we can used it.
Use firefox while clicking on the CS_Mail link as after submitting the feedback, you can submit again and again and flood them.
Please do your part to make them aware about this and do something about it. The current video/graphic performance is un-acceptable!
Thank you all in advance for your contribution!
Cheers!
Ruffie
One person's strength is limited but One world strength is unlimited.
Chopstick story to share
You can break a wooden pair of chopsticks with your bare hands.
But you can't break a pack of wooden chopsticks with your bare hands.
Brothers, Unity is strength!
Join the Brotherhood to fight for our rights!
ruffruff said:
Chopstick story to share
You can break a wooden pair of chopsticks with your bare hands.
But you can't break a pack of wooden chopsticks with your bare hands.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unless you're Chuck Norris. He just looks at them and they snap in fear.
maybe we should contact consumerist.com also. They are good at this kind of stuff.
haha indeed indeed. lets ask chuck norris to fix our video drivers on our kaisers.
Oh good... Another thread on this ridiculous topic... Just what we need!
Clowns...
(except for the Chuck bit - thats ok!)
I am an unemployed student with nothing better to do with my time. Let's do this!
A Standard E-mail To Send To Htc
To whomever it concerns:
WE (meaning us Kaiser/Tilt Owners) enjoy our devices very well but we as a collective of owners of these great devices, we know it can do more than it is currently programed to do. We as a group ask to give us an upgrade to the video/graphic card for us. With Qualcomm MSM7200 Chip it can offer us a lot more rich pictures, enjoy 3d games to the fullest, and watch videos just like Apples Iphone. I as a consummer ask to offer us a solution and give us D3D Driver or OpenGL ES hardware acceleration for Qualcomm MSM7200 Chip. We can be reached at this website address http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=342500. We as a collective wait for your reply to our crying hearts to solve our problem we ask for.
How about sending this letter as a standard e-mail to send them.
herg62123 said:
To whomever it concerns:
WE (meaning us Kaiser/Tilt Owners) enjoy our devices very well but we as a collective of owners of these great devices, we know it can do more than it is currently programed to do. We as a group ask to give us an upgrade to the video/graphic card for us. With Qualcomm MSM7200 Chip it can offer us a lot more rich pictures, enjoy 3d games to the fullest, and watch videos just like Apples Iphone. I as a consummer ask to offer us a solution and give us D3D Driver or OpenGL ES hardware acceleration for Qualcomm MSM7200 Chip. We can be reached at this website address http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=342500. We as a collective wait for your reply to our crying hearts to solve our problem we ask for.
How about sending this letter as a standard e-mail to send them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this does looks nice. Anyone with any better suggestion, please share with us.
greeek: my english is not good so I don't know if i understand you. Anyway, if you have any better suggestion, please shared.
Though this isn't the best method but it is at least what we can do. I am not a programmer nor a device drivers expert. I loved my kaiser but seeing what the hardware is capable of and no relevant drivers to support it really put me down.
or nevermind, I am never good with words. bottomline is that I will try to do what is within my means to help.
to the rest of the brotherhood,
KEEP IT GOING!
I'll do it...
already sent
skyrysers said:
already sent
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thx, keep it up guys.
we will do it everyday till they can give in.
Just got this reply back from HTC support (not sure if any else has heard the same thing):
Thank you for your inquiry in regards to requesting Acceleration drivers for the HTC TyTN II (Kaiser, AT&T Tilt).
I understand your request for available drivers for these devices. I'll do my best to provide you with assistance.
In order to obtain these drivers, you will need to contact the Microsoft Developers for Windows Mobile and obtain these drivers. Unfortunately, Direct 3D drivers and opening GL ES hardware acceleration for the Qualcomm MSM7200 chip; are not a supported built-in option with the HTC device.
For more information on requesting these drivers for Windows Mobile, please visit:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb158484.aspx.
D3D drivers information:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb158662.aspx.
gaiden said:
I'll do it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
me too..
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am not sure this is going to turn any heads at HTC. In fact, it will probably be viewed as an annoyance and shed a poor light on the forum community. I suggest signing the petition, and supporting the development efforts, then let things take their course. Thus far, HTC has 3 devices with this chipset running Windows Mobile and with more devices sold, the problem will get more difficult to ignore. So hopefully they will either feel enough pressure that they will be forced to act (which is the best alternative for us), or they will abandon the chipset used in these devices. If they choose the former, in theory, once the drivers are available, they should be able to (fairly) easily fix every device with this OS/Chipset combination.
jgermuga said:
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am not sure this is going to turn any heads at HTC. In fact, it will probably be viewed as an annoyance and shed a poor light on the forum community. I suggest signing the petition, and supporting the development efforts, then let things take their course. Thus far, HTC has 3 devices with this chipset running Windows Mobile and with more devices sold, the problem will get more difficult to ignore. So hopefully they will either feel enough pressure that they will be forced to act (which is the best alternative for us), or they will abandon the chipset used in these devices. If they choose the former, in theory, once the drivers are available, they should be able to (fairly) easily fix every device with this OS/Chipset combination.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WOW! jger.. I SOooo totally agree with you!!!
I hope I don't shock you with this but your balanced aspect for this forum is GREAT!!
It has got many problems as a device, but lets work on it as we have with all the XDA devices before.
Power to us all...
The site is up and running, discussion here!
Frontpage is done, see http://www.htcclassaction.org/. Feel free to comment. None of the other pages on the site are done yet, though.
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
There isn't really a point to the petition, as companies don't really care. There probably isn't a big point with a class action lawsuit either, as it's entirely possible we won't win. It is something that should be investigated, as ultimately, it's just a way of applying pressure, getting publicity and raising awareness.
And nope, I'm not a former employee, but I am disgruntled by the way HTC is treating us.
Looks very good!
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about people who already use their hard earned money and brought the device already?
jackleung said:
What about people who already use their hard earned money and brought the device already?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The most basic rule when buying a PDA: Only buy what you know youre getting, not what you think youre getting. I learnt that the hard way three years ago,its the same game all over. I think its an annual event.
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you should read the main thread before posting crap like this. There are plenty of people, including myself who think a class action suite would be a good idea. Even if we didn't win or had no real grounds for one, the negative feedback alone could cause HTC to do something about the driver support.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As Chainfire mentioned, petitions never work. This is because people eventually "cool off" and stop caring that they've been ripped off.
If I paid a lot less for my Kaiser, I wouldn't care as much that it's being outperformed by the older cheaper HTC models. We paid an arm and leg for these costly phones, we'd expect them to at least give us the basics (drivers).
How would you feel if you bought some fancy & expensive graphics board only to have to use the generic drivers that come with your OS?
Chainfire, great work. Let us know when you've set up the paypal account.
Oh, by the way, wonderful site Chainfire. It has all the info needed in one neatly organized site.
Excellent site Chainfire. If this is indicative of the effort you put into things, my previous (and future) donations have been well spent!! Very clear and to the point.
I posted a link on the "Proper video drivers...." sticky to a Google page tlaking about the bright new future of Android. Just wondered if it is worth highlighting to visitors to the site that HTC is one of the core companies developing this - perhaps if they realise HTC's attitude will affect more than just the current devices. Or maybe they won't care as most casual browsers don't know what Android is? Ah, I don't know.
Hey, if we draw public attention to all this, and then someone manages to address the issue here on XDA-devs, could that cause problems - infringment of copyright etc?
I don't understand the point of this petition, or a law suite for that matter. What do 99% of people do with their Kaisers anyway? There are lots of people around me where I work that use Windows smart phones and they are happy to get their push mail, GPS, bluetooth, whatever. I think they could care less about video drivers.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to have some video acceleration, but most users probably could care less. We are the minority.
I think raising awareness is a great idea. Perhaps listing those manufactures that actually support their WinMo devices with proper drivers is even better, so potential buyers would know to spend their money else wehere.
I got my Kaiser as a Tilt from AT&T. I had 30 days to return it. I was given ample opportunity to play with it, install software, and make my complaint. I kept the device. No one was being forced to buy these things.
If you bought an unlocked Kaiser and spend a large bit of cash, well you take the first movers risk. No reason anyone couldn't wait to see what others though of the device before purchasing it.
You certainly can't will things into existence. Can't buy an HTC phone and wish into existence some drivers that it never had in the first place.
As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some. GPS, pushmail, Pocket IE, it all pretty much works as expected. I understand that the qualcomm chipset may certainly be capable of video acceleration, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific feature that HTC was going after when it made the Kaiser.
I'm not trying to ruin anyones plans or desires to get the most out of their phones, but why not just not buy the phone?
I for one look forward to something like Android, so hobbiests and consumers can put the features they want to exploit in to place on phones like the Kaiser. I hope this drastically changes the market and gives us more choice in our software, and forces manufacturers to do more than the bare minimum with these devices.
-James
jmacdonald801 said:
As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, given older HTC devices never mentioned video acceleration in their specs either and that they're certainly performing better than the Kaiser, I think it's fair to expect performance which at the very least matches that of former models.
I got my Kaiser as a Tilt from AT&T. I had 30 days to return it. I was given ample opportunity to play with it, install software, and make my complaint. I kept the device. No one was being forced to buy these things...
...As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some. GPS, pushmail, Pocket IE, it all pretty much works as expected. I understand that the qualcomm chipset may certainly be capable of video acceleration, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific feature that HTC was going after when it made the Kaiser.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate to say it, but jmac makes very good points. Awareness is fine. Negative publicity might cause some action. but such a lawsuit isn't very winnable here since there were no real explicit promises broken here. Any "promises borken" were more hopes and expectations that were not made by the manufacturer.
But who knows, this being a very HTC centric forum, it could make them take a little notice, but most likely this isn't a winnable case.
jomo25 said:
I hate to say it, but jmac makes very good points. Awareness is fine. Negative publicity might cause some action. but such a lawsuit isn't very winnable here since there were no real explicit promises broken here. Any "promises borken" were more hopes and expectations that were not made by the manufacturer.
But who knows, this being a very HTC centric forum, it could make them take a little notice, but most likely this isn't a winnable case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hehe, as stated elsewhere, it's mostly a pressure and publicity tool. In the end, if we do do the case, it doesn't even really matter if we win it. The publicity and awareness it will generate... There's the headology factor. People are happy using a gadget. People learn the gadget can do a lot more then it does. People are unhappy using the gadget. People complain about the gadget. Creator of gadget fixes gadget
Mark my words, if enough attention is given to this, HTC will do the right thing, if only to save face.
Great site so far Chainfire. I pray that this brings enough attention to move HTC to action. Without those drivers, I can compare this to buying a Corvette only to realize once on the road that the governor is set to 30mph.
Satus update
Status update:
The site is almost finished and uploaded, apart from the "Responses from HTC" section.
- Please read the 'drivers in detail' page and tell me what you think
- Please help me collect 'carrier branded' names of the devices in question
I have also setup a paypal address for donations for the AdWords campaign only, you can find a button on the "What you can do" page. I already put 100 euro's in there myself, and it's been getting extra visitors for almost an hour now.
Before I finish the "Responses from HTC" part, start submitting to slashdot, digg, etc, it's time for dinner
you might want to add the htc vogue/sprint touch to your list on htcclassaction.org, it suffers the same problem and i believe it has a similar chipset with the same 3d hardware.
i think htc will just say,well just because the chipset we use has 3d hardware built in doesn't mean we have to enable or support it because it was never advertised as such.
I'd have to download and extract a ROM to be sure though, I'll do that later.
jmacdonald801 said:
I don't understand the point of this petition, or a law suite for that matter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What he said...but I am a little under the influence right now. To be honest, my phone works for GPS, works for email, works for web browsing, sync's via activesync, plays movies just fine (no slider issues when adjusting sound), allows me to read ebooks, works with office mobile (though I would like to be able to save Word documents as .DOC files, not .DOCX). Guess I'm with the 99% because I really don't see any issues with the phone that cause me to get on a soapbox. I really don't care if this makes me unpopular, but I'm so sick of people coming on this forum and moaning about video driver issues. Show me one other device that does all the things that a Kaiser can do? iPhone, no GPS and limited open source unless you want to run the risk of bricking the device, Nokia? Please, I had the 9xxx series of communicators for years. I had the choice between the latest comunicator series or the Kaiser, I went with the Kaiser as Symbian sucked. The N95, QWERTY keyboard???
This phone is not designed as a graphics device, its a business tool. If you want DVD quality movies, buy a portable DVD player, graphic intensive games, get a PSP. I have a Nokia 2110 mobile from 10 years ago that can't handle MID files, a Garmin Sat-Nav the size of a house brick and a digital camera that uses 3.5" floppy discs cause memory cards hadn't been invented when it was launched. HTC have packed an MP3 player, sat-nav, laptop computer, digital camera, mobile phone (...the list goes on) inside a device the size of a packet of cigarettes. Personally I think this is amazing, lets give them a bit of credit for doing this!
[/drunk rant off...]
Honorable Chefs - distinguished consumers.
www.romondemand.com/org has been registered as a strategic decision elaborating the feasibility of providing personalized Rom's to end-consumers.
The idea generated by reading to many times "can you include this' - "can you remove that" etc
So, why not offering personalized - tailor made ROM's ? Customer creates a wish-list on the webpage - available Chef -in his domain of expertise receives the order - constructs - customer downloads - Chef follow-up. Chef gets paid - happy customer with own ROM.
Simply presented, I know, but got to start somewhere no?
Would like to know the opinion of the Chef's on this idea. PM me to elaborate further on together if this is tempting or not.
And whoever thinks that a personalized ROM is crap is free to flame - punch me. I own the idea. Stupid or clever as it is.
good idea but i don't think most of the chefs here cook roms as a profession. Most of them simply do it because its a hobby and invest their time into it. If they wanted money i am sure they wouldn't post their hardwork here for others to steal
nothing wrong with that I guess. Use your skills to pay the bills
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
bengalih said:
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for a legal stance you'd technically be selling your service rather than the rom itself seeing it is a customization.
CUSTEL said:
As for a legal stance you'd technically be selling your service rather than the rom itself seeing it is a customization.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes but you'd still be breaking HTC/AT&T/MS property rights. Again, it's a grey area...just like all of us here freely distributing them.
I don't think selling them is any worse (since you would be selling the service), but it's stil grey... and anytime money is involved it can be higher profile.
Custel , you made some valid points, though it would not be the intention to steel without authorization already cooked ROM's.
I would either see it as a Chefs-united platform where stock ROM's are used and tweaked - within the legal bounderies.
No, a MS VC would not be added for free and if so, royalties would be paid to MS.
Same counts for applic's such as coreplayer etc.
A matter of how the negotiations will go with those guys.
Purpose is for them to understand that we can integrate officialy their soft at a minimum price avoiding that plenty d-load them somewhere onon-officialy.
I do not see loosers within this set-up (yet)
No misunderstanding !
Benghali wrote : 2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
I would not even touch these ROMS and they will even not be on the website.
It would be the Chef's whom are jumping in which start with a Vanilla base and customize the ROM on demand (Customer can provide desired wallpaper - list a wich of soft - tweaks - cabs etc whatever his level of PDA understanding is)
So, no, the ROM's made by the CHEF's would not be simply refurbished.
(as this never ever happens among the chefs neither )
ceevee369 said:
Custel , you made some valid points, though it would not be the intention to steel without authorization already cooked ROM's.
I would either see it as a Chefs-united platform where stock ROM's are used and tweaked - within the legal bounderies.
No, a MS VC would not be added for free and if so, royalties would be paid to MS.
Same counts for applic's such as coreplayer etc.
A matter of how the negotiations will go with those guys.
Purpose is for them to understand that we can integrate officialy their soft at a minimum price avoiding that plenty d-load them somewhere onon-officialy.
I do not see loosers within this set-up (yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just pointing out that I made all those original posts, Custel was just quoting me. But, more importantly...you talk about doing thing within "legal boundaries."
There are no legal boundaries for cooking ROMs. It is against all HTC/MS/AT&T licensing agreements to decompile, modify, and redistribute their code (and for profit nonetheless!).
You seem to be approaching this as a legitimate business venture where you will pay royalties to various manufacturers. I don't want to put down your idea, but unless you have some major connections at some very big corporations, this idea would not even be entertained.
Anything you do would pretty much be regulated fully by yourself. MS isn't going to license VC command to you. Other smaller software companies may play along, but to be honest such a licensing structure for an endeavor like this probably is overkill.
You also seem to be thinking of not just making these ROMs yourself, but brokering it out to multiple chefs who will be taking orders. Again, it could work, but is ambitious to lay out a structure like this.
Again, I like your idea...I just don't know how realistic it is based on the amount of transactions you would be performing. And, please remember if you actually achieved such a structure, your site and services would surely be put out there and would draw attention from the major vendors who would probably investigate and send you cease-and-desists. Remember, the whole act of cooking and distibuting copyrighted ROMs is not withing the agreements of the vendors.
bengalih said:
I think it's a great idea, however keep the following in mind:
1) How much you charge vs. how much people are willing to pay vs. how many people will actually use this service. Even though alot of people say "can you include this..." doesn't mean they are going to pay for someone else to do it. Alot of people on this forum will tinker themselves rather than pay the $$. Also, make sure you aren't putting too much time into this. If i ask you to build be a rom just like the stock but with App ABC built in.... you might say sure...$30! But if it takes you 3 hours to figure out how to properly integrate it...that is alot of work for $30. Plus if you can't figure it out...you get $0
2) Make sure you don't pirate anyone else's work without first asking. If I ask you for a ROM "just like Dutty's latest but with A, B, and Z" you might want to take Dutty's and update it. You will not get the best reputation here if you take Dutty's hard work and tweak it just a bit and turn it for a profit.
3) Be sure you are prepared for any legal implications. The legality of putting these ROMs up, let alone selling them is a grey area. Make sure you are ready to deal with any possible consequences.
If you got all that covered...go for it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not too mention that Dutty, & a few other chef's remove all the RGU's. So unless the creator is the one helping you, prepare to spend a lot of time digging out the defunct dsm files from the rom.
I think it's an okay, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people that are clueless about this stuff & still want things there way, but you hardly own the idea. The idea is what gave birth to this forum, & if you have been here for any length of time you'll see that people here have in some instances paid others to make or customize roms for them in the past.
I also don't think you'll get away with charging much for your "Service", as the hard work, all the coding, was already done by MS & HTC. Thinking that you'd get MS to sanction this is wishful. Remember, MS at one point stopped XDA from distributing their roms, & one of the big reasons it turns it's head today is because of all of the free bug fixes & beta testing they get out of this community. If your just selling roms, ahem...services, then you'll likely not be any source of needed data for them & there will be no reason to let you keep going at it.
Customizing already customized roms gets even grayer, because now you have artwork & custom icons that were created by members specifically for certain chefs, i.e. Collinssc frequently does custom art for Dutty's roms.
Again, there is a lot of stuff to work thru here, & several are pretty serious, such as licensing that already prohibits distribution, not to mention all of the required technical support & while you can use all the disclaimers in the world, that won't stop someone from sueing you when their device bricks. Take a look at all of the cooked rom threads, some have thousands upon thousands of little bug complaints, that adds up to a lot of hours when you have made a lot of individual changes to a rom & it's not always the chef that comes up with the solution for the bugs. I personally never used a Dutty rom because I couldn't use MediaNet & BBC at the same time, but I wanted to, so I disected several ROM's & found the issue & the fix. Same with certain roms & TCPMP. Multiply these issues by the number of each user personal taste in apps &, well you see my point.
I'm a red blooded capitalist thru & thru, so I say go for it, but there'll be no easy money made here. It'll take a lot of time to get any coordinated effort involving so many variables off & running. Good luck.
It's a shame this idea has been shot down already because I wanted to know how much it was going to cost. Hell, I have three other friends that would be interested in buying a ROM. Sometimes, people would rather hire someone with experience.
bennyj71 said:
It's a shame this idea has been shot down already because I wanted to know how much it was going to cost. Hell, I have three other friends that would be interested in buying a ROM. Sometimes, people would rather hire someone with experience.
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the idea still lives but needs further investigation and I want to know the Chef's view on this first.
Will come back with more news.
i already found Taiwanese web builder understanding the complexity but thinks it is more than feasible to build a platform fitting the needs.
Today, when I went to Sakajati's website to check the release of his new WM6.5 ROM, I was totally depressed and completely lost the mood to flash this brand new ROM, after I read this brief intro:
sakajati
May 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Sorry guys for being away, I’ve been under stress due to financial problem. The business is getting worse and worse, I’m afraid I won’t be able to support this website anymore and may also have to sell my device (God I hope this won’t happend). To all hyperdragon users, please consider to support/donate, it may help me so I don’t have to sell this crapy device. Thanks in advance! Enjoy this new rom and let me know for any bugs you found!
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It was exactly the same feeling when yesterday I passed by Mirko Schenk's website and read this:
I aten't ded (12/05/2008, 10:00 PM)
Yeah, I know, I'm a bit slow with updates recently. Somehow, when I wasn't missing free time, all too often I was missing motivation (no, that's not begging for donations) to struggly with the pitfalls of programming after I struggled with them in my job before. And this even though there's currently no girl friend that threadens me when I'd spend more time on my PC than with her. (But admitted, she'd probably wouldn't need to threaden me... )
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Sakajati, a famouse ROM cooker for Kaiser, his Hyperdragon ROM thread in this forum has received 11,178 repplies and 1,574,596 views up to now. Yes, not mistaken, it's more than 1.5 milllion views. Is he brilliant? The numbers speak for themselves.
Mirko Schenk, the name may not much known to public. But if I talk about Mort, every chefs here knows who he is. One of his small programs named 'Mortscript' is now cooked in many of the custom ROMs on this site. Is he brilliant? You can ask every chef here, I guess you'll get the same answer:'Yes, he is VERY brillant.'
These two guys are only examples of many of the brilliant stars here. They all have these two same characters as I know: First, their softwares are all FREE. I.e, they supply free service to pubic without asking any material support from users. Second, I am regret to say, they are all VERY POOR now.
Well, I believe, that the initial puppose of their developing these wares are not for money. I also believe that they would like to continue this cause even if they can not receive one single coin from it, even if they maintain a poor living condition for his own life, they just enjoy it.
On the other hand, have to say this: It is ULTIMATE FORTUNE for a man, that in his life he can find something he likes, he is good at, he did it, and finally he fighted to clime to top of the line. BUT, it is an ULTIMATE UNFORTUNE for him that after he did this, he only found his life is 'worsen and worsen'.
Yes a man's value is not only reallize his own joy, he also has to be responsible for his beloves, his family, his girlfiend, or even his pet. This is the reason they may decide to drop this loved cause and find something else to do. And finally they may be driven out from this society.
Now the question comes: Can we do something to rescue them out of this situation?
Yes, we can donate to their PayPal account.
BUT, to donate to a paypal account is not always convienient for everybody that want to help them.
Actually, there are other much better ways, but the forum rules here does not support it. Like this: Why not allow them to put a simple advertisement on their signature?
Like this one (I found in this thread):
iPhone ... its a maxipad without wings!
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So that viewers can support them by a simple click of their mouse, which will bring a small money for them? Say in Sakajati's case, he has 1.5 million viewers, onlyif 10% of viewers would make a click on the ad, and only if each click can just bring $0.1 for them. That will collect to an amount of $15,000. Which will greatly enhance their life, at lest let them keep the 'crapy device'.
Don't tell me this is impossible for this forum. We have so many super-smart brains here. Actually can set some rules or systems to avoid any 'side effects' of it, like rules on the size, layout, postion, etc of the ad. Who can use it, who can not etc.
Yes, this great forum place should become a worm home for all telents in this line.
MODs: Can you discuss on this issue?
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
Chainfire said:
First let me say this is all very sad. Though I never use MortScript, I do sometimes run Sakajati's ROM.
There are unfortunately some issues with what you propose.
While I love XDA-Developers.com (primarily for its people and community), the board owners are not exactly known for 'making things happen'.
Second, clicking ads to "support someone" is a surefire way to get booted from the ad network. This is a definite no in the ad-world and against all regulations. Besides, all this does is move money from businesses who pay for those advertisements to freeware developers, while the users skimp on the cash again, and those who pay for advert gain nothing - you just click to support, not because you are interested in the ad product. So you rise prices for businesses trying to sell something. In turn this will make their products more expensive, you hurt the business and their consumers, and you have gained nothing. Its frowned upon for good reason.
Right now the best and quickest solution is probably still a PayPal rally. Frequent users should simply just donate a few bucks (remember when PayPal'ing, donate at least $2.50 or so or so much will be lost by the money they take, it's hardly worth donating at all). I have been thinking of a solution for this for years, even before I joined the WM community. I may have thought of something but unfortunately right now do not have the time to set up - however it will remain on my to-do list.
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Thank for your attention on tjis issue. There must be a solution for that, at least not 'completely impossible.
But the circut of money in 'ads' industry. Is just like 'everybody follow the rules here'.
Since the activities concerning 'advertising' may become a key factor in judgement of this issue. Here I add some more info. There are books about 'advertisement', or lots of internet materials available, but probably not everyone has time to read it. Let me just tell what is advertisement in this simple way:
The major target of ads is not to reach people who want the product, because people wants it already knows it. It is targeted to those people who doesn't want it, or even doesn't know it. Advertisement will let them know the product, and MAKE (sorry I use this word) them reallize that they want it.
This is why ads sponsors would be glad to pay even for a mouse click and a slight glance at what they are advertising. At least this make the clicker have a short memery about their brand name, or their product idea.
After read this, you may feel somehow uncomfortble about 'ads'. But sorry, this is just the prevailing commercial activity.
Please Post Your Comments on This Issue!
Anybody pass by here and reading this, if you have some opinion, comments, or different idea about this issue, please post here.
Maybe you are freeware developer, or commercial software developer, or common user, or moderator, it doesn't matter. What I'm thinking about is not trying to persuade the forum board to issue a new advertising policy, really need to be concerned is how to help those GREAT freeware developers OUT. Avertisement is just the best way that I can figure out by myself. But maybe you guys have better idea about this issue.
Here appeal to everybody:
If you are using a freeware, and find it's really helpful, or may bring additional conveineince and joy to your life. Please think about the life of the developer of the freeware. And first please consider a DONATION to them, if you can not, please think about what else you can do.
Everybody please leave your voice here, maybe we can work out a way together!
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
Chainfire said:
Also put a post about up on myblog (spam, not finished yet). Who knows maybe it will even help.
I'll be making a serious donation myself. I hope others will do the same.
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Certainly yours will be a nice place with lots of chef want to take a look. I went there and found some projects not known to me in the past. Before I only know WMWifiRouter's from you, later WMLongLife, but that's already enough to call you a Master. Now you're master++.
Also noted that you already sent donation confirmation code on Sakajati's site.
You built a nice blog.