If you want to see multiplayer games or Quake on Android... - G1 Apps and Games

Android Bounty is back and this time we are bringing Quake with multiplayer support to Android.
If you are not familiar with Android Bounty, we take ideas and then encourage developers to take on the task with cash rewards. Our first Android Bounty was a huge success and saw the creation of two torrent applications for Android: Torrent Droid and BarTor.
As you know, there are very few 3D games on the G1, but it is a very powerful phone. We have seen a few like Mystique and iPingpong3D, but not enough. By porting Quake to Android, we can release the code to other devs and let them mod it however they want. Multiplayer support is also an area where Android is lacking and we aim to improve that.
So if you are interested in helping out. Read our site for more details.
http://bit.ly/mobilequake
I'm really interested to see what you think. If you think it's a stupid idea, let us know how we can improve it. Thanks.

We would all love to see this done but we haven't even seen a proper NES/gameboy emulator that will actually run with sound. Quake would be pushing it, big time. But who knows... in time, may be. It ran once before the G1 release (some youtube video out there) but never reappeared after the release. Java seems to be a huge road block for 3D games on Android, not the hardware.

sino8r said:
We would all love to see this done but we haven't even seen a proper NES/gameboy emulator that will actually run with sound. Quake would be pushing it, big time. But who knows... in time, may be. It ran once before the G1 release (some youtube video out there) but never reappeared after the release. Java seems to be a huge road block for 3D games on Android, not the hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see how java is a problem here? With the api you use the hardware directly, it's not like you have to use software rendering or hardware emulation like the NES thing.

The Neocore Demo in the Market shows off some pretty nice 3D Cinematic Action. I'd imagine that Quake could go OK. Quake ran on these minimum specs:
Processor:
Intel Pentium(R) 75 MHz processor or better​Memory:
DOS -- 8 MB RAM required (16 MB recommended)​Win 95 -- 16 MB RAM required (24 recommended)​

Well that's good news! I know little about java, this just what I heard. Good to heard this won't apply to quake development. Still a little disappointed about the nes emulators, I guess. Clouded my judgement. More of an artist than a programmer. Good troubleshooting tech though. May be in a year or so, we'll have good nes/gameboy/snes emulation along with quake! Still such a new platform....Android has some potential with 3D.

I had started a 3D game as my first Android Project. A "port" of the iPhone app Ivory Tiles. I figured it would be a relatively simple way to dive into 3D, and the Android platform. I was getting close before I kind of lost interest and moved on to other things. I may revisit it if I find the time.

nEx.Software said:
I had started a 3D game as my first Android Project. A "port" of the iPhone app Ivory Tiles. I figured it would be a relatively simple way to dive into 3D, and the Android platform. I was getting close before I kind of lost interest and moved on to other things. I may revisit it if I find the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ditto with my game "Flyer", although for me I started working(had just graduated from college when I started it) and have run out of time. I'd love to keep working on it, though, just need to find the time. Been thinking about trying to add texturing and such to make it look nice and improving the AI and maybe charging for it but we'll see.

Related

I want to port my Games to mobile... HOW?

G'day all!
I'm an intermediate C++ and C# programmer, who is nearing the end of a 2 year Games course in Australia.
I've worked with DirectX, Gamebryo, SDL, XNA and with Raknet, PhysX and few other libraries.
My point is that I've got a few old C# demo games I wanna spruce up and throw onto my Tytn, and then onto the community, all of which just simple sprite based.
The main game I'm working on is called SwarmLight. Its a sandbox fish simulator kinda thing with fake sprite based lighting and Boids AI. Feed and breed is the goal of the game, kinda like fish Tycoon I guess, but Top view.
Could you guys link me up with a few good tuts and some crappy (or Great) demo projects just to give me that jump start?
Swarmlight will hopefully hit xbox live XNA shortly after the dashboard update, probably december or january when its finished and I need some feedback and beta testing.
I've written the AI, swarm management and lighting management pretty seperate from the rendering system XNA uses so porting should only take a day or two at most.
Cheers in Advance!

Gameboy and NES

Anybody working on gameboy advance emulator like the iphone has or working on NES emulator coz i would love to have them on phone. I want to have some good games on my phone like the iphone has bowling, basketball, accelerometer racing(all using 3d engine) coz as android is amusing me day by day it is also getting a bit boring. i would happily pay $10 fo such games. Please somebody develop or just give me a hint how to develop. Can work for them days and nights.
well it all comes down to developement... the only way this will happen is if someone develops it hehe.. i second your thoughts eventhough i don't have a android...
personally i think the phone should be utilized to it's potential, granted i like what the phone can do, but i would love to see it do more, i don't usually download games, but i have a few and would download an nes/gba emulator if it was made, i love playing excitebike on the nes, i will keep an eye on this thread and hopefully we can get one up and running.
There are a couple of nes/gameboy color emulators out there but they really don't work well. The framerate at highest was 10 fps and no sound. From what I understand, the java side of android (java layer) seems to slow down everything game/video related. My old HTC Wizard (aka tmobile mda) 200mhz processor, 128 MB memory runs NES at full speed and almost runs SNES. This is because java isn't used in the WM emulator and the g1 uses it all the time. Since most of us have root access now, may be java can be bypassed and we can run games/video at a faster speed but that would be extremely difficult. A version of Quake 1 was used in a demo before the g1 was released and ran quite well but it was never released and allegedly ran independently from the OS. BUT if they could do it... why can we? It would be tough but it is possible.
Agreed. And the issue isn't just that the SDK is reliant on Java, but the Android implementation of Java is interpreted - so it is far slower on comparable hardware than a typical Java implementation.
What would fix the issue would be if an organization formed to promote alternate Android SDKs with supporting firmware. It would need some standard libraries that developers could leverage, and ideally it would support installation via the Market (or another Market-like app). Hopefully Google would merge the resulting interaface into the main Android codebase, but even if they didn't people with rooted phones could use the non-Davalik applications.
Just do it.
I don't know how to develop anything. i can just give ideas. Someone in this world should be able to do it. So that person please do it. G1 is one of the best phones and it is a shame for it to not do it.
i would love gameboy or NES (or, even better, SNES..) on my G1.
rich0 said:
Agreed. And the issue isn't just that the SDK is reliant on Java, but the Android implementation of Java is interpreted - so it is far slower on comparable hardware than a typical Java implementation.
What would fix the issue would be if an organization formed to promote alternate Android SDKs with supporting firmware. It would need some standard libraries that developers could leverage, and ideally it would support installation via the Market (or another Market-like app). Hopefully Google would merge the resulting interaface into the main Android codebase, but even if they didn't people with rooted phones could use the non-Davalik applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Superb idea.
rich0 said:
Agreed. And the issue isn't just that the SDK is reliant on Java, but the Android implementation of Java is interpreted - so it is far slower on comparable hardware than a typical Java implementation.
What would fix the issue would be if an organization formed to promote alternate Android SDKs with supporting firmware. It would need some standard libraries that developers could leverage, and ideally it would support installation via the Market (or another Market-like app). Hopefully Google would merge the resulting interaface into the main Android codebase, but even if they didn't people with rooted phones could use the non-Davalik applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible to run apps with a decent UI from within Mono on Android?
Have you checked out Mystique on the market from Bendroid? Its a 3d game.
support
I am ready to give support of anykind if anyone agrees to develop.
wimbet said:
Have you checked out Mystique on the market from Bendroid? Its a 3d game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, Mystique is 3d and I didn't realize they had it for android. It's been around for a while now and remeber playing it on my htc wizard. It's a rpg game and doesn't require a high framerate from what I remember. There are a few 3d games for android but they are pretty simple and don't use a ton of resources. I'm sure this can happen and some developers are working on emulators. Android is still pretty new and sure everything is more difficult when java is concerned (as far as performance goes, not actual development) but it will happen. Just takes more time when compared to an older, more widely used OS such as Windows Mobile.
Anybody Trying
Anybody trying to develop it.
There's a few 3D games on the Market, heck I wrote one of them(the first one in fact). The problem when it comes to GB and NES and SNES shouldn't be processing power so much, the G1 can clearly handle graphics that are closer to being on par with N64, the problem is that it has to run any games for those systems as emulations, so basically you have a software version of GB/NES/SNES processor running on a software version of a Java processor(virtual machine) running on the real hardware.
Forgot to say: This should be extremely possible if someone can write a program for android in an actual binary(written in C/C++) and deployed a normal app that just called an execute on that binary. That said, I've never delved into emulators so we'll have to wait until some enterprising person who knows about writing such things does so.
The Kid GBC app only plays gameboy color games but i have been able to get pokemon games to play at about 16 fps on parts so whoever developed it should be asked more questions about it and how he got it to do that.
Looks like its not impossible to run native C programs on the G1...
http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/13/android-native-apps
now if only we could figure out how to access the graphics APIs
wizern23 said:
The Kid GBC app only plays gameboy color games but i have been able to get pokemon games to play at about 16 fps on parts so whoever developed it should be asked more questions about it and how he got it to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
His source is open. http://code.google.com/p/kiddgbc/
anybody
What about BASEBALL SUPERSTARS 2009. Anybody going 3d
[email protected] said:
There's a few 3D games on the Market, heck I wrote one of them(the first one in fact). The problem when it comes to GB and NES and SNES shouldn't be processing power so much, the G1 can clearly handle graphics that are closer to being on par with N64, the problem is that it has to run any games for those systems as emulations, so basically you have a software version of GB/NES/SNES processor running on a software version of a Java processor(virtual machine) running on the real hardware.
Forgot to say: This should be extremely possible if someone can write a program for android in an actual binary(written in C/C++) and deployed a normal app that just called an execute on that binary. That said, I've never delved into emulators so we'll have to wait until some enterprising person who knows about writing such things does so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Nintendo DS's use ARM processors like the G1 I know, and IIRC many other systems do as well. I don't know if they have the exact same assembly languages, and the GPU would be tricky. If the assembly langauge is compatible they could use a VMware style emulation where instructions are executed natively as much as possible. The big gotcha would definitely be the GPU. So there's a chance for DS emulation atleast, maybe, possibly.
With it's touch screen a G1 would be ace at emulating a DS interface wise.
IANA assembly level programmer yet so I may be full of crap, and emulators are tricky business so who knows?
just a quick bump...
has anyone heard any new developments with gaming emulators in Android recently?/

Port Iphone OS?

A lot of progress is being made as android OS has now been ported to iphone 2g and 3g. Wondering if we could do the reverse on the Nexus? Now before I get flamed or whatever, its not that I want an Iphone or think its better, just like the choice is all....
http://gizmodo.com/5533312/iphone-3g-shown-running-android
iphone os isn't open source. and, a nexus one user, why the hell would want to install iphone os ?!?
call me selfish lol never used an iphone but thought it would be cool...smh ok was a thought, back to drolling over my nexus....
Wrong section, and the last comment is correct that iPhone OS isnt' open source so we'll never see it openly available. You should learn C++ and port it for us!
I agree
One of the things, the world doesn't need: an iphone os port for nexus one xD
applications
I think the best and only reason to have the iphone OS is to have so many different applications.
I wonder if there is a way to somehow boot up iphone applications on an android phone using some sort of compatibility mode? That would be ideal and give us the best of both worlds, a crazy amount of apps and android.
the prediction is 75,000-100,000 android apps by 2010. how many more apps do you need?
This iPhone isn't completely closed source. The kernel is open, and that's likely where most of the porting work would need to go anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)
go ahead and dream, dont come crying to me when apple Legal dept rips off your head and funnels in feces from Jobs himself when you actually do port it
N31N said:
go ahead and dream, dont come crying to me when apple Legal dept rips off your head and funnels in feces from Jobs himself when you actually do port it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would the OP come to you and cry? are you a lawyer?
porting another operating system to a machine that you personally own will not get you into trouble.
You can limit yourself upto only provide instructions on how to do this, and not by distributing the actual image in public, you will not get in trouble for it.
I am no lawyer but a paralegal in IP.
I would agree that this is infact a good project, and/or i would even dream of porting Winmo to have a triple boot in our (What google states as the Developers phone = Nexus one).
Don't get me wrong, Android is Awesome, but having more options is always better!
It is like a PC compared to a Playstation
In Playstation, you are limited to playing PS games.
In a PC, besides the PC games, you can also play different kind of PS, Gamecube, PS2, etc. emulators.
iphone apps
I guess the amount of iphone apps does not really apply to my desire to have a compatibility mode to run them. Just the types of apps. I'm a medical student and as the iphone has much more support on this front, I think it would be quite beneficial be able to run the apps that aren't ported over to android. I hope that things will change however and more medical applications will be made for android soon. It's just a matter of time really...
I don't want the entire iPhone OS because its stupid.. if someone could reveal their scrolling physics, it would be great....
din0_22 said:
Why would the OP come to you and cry? are you a lawyer?
porting another operating system to a machine that you personally own will not get you into trouble.
You can limit yourself upto only provide instructions on how to do this, and not by distributing the actual image in public, you will not get in trouble for it.
I am no lawyer but a paralegal in IP.
I would agree that this is infact a good project, and/or i would even dream of porting Winmo to have a triple boot in our (What google states as the Developers phone = Nexus one).
Don't get me wrong, Android is Awesome, but having more options is always better!
It is like a PC compared to a Playstation
In Playstation, you are limited to playing PS games.
In a PC, besides the PC games, you can also play different kind of PS, Gamecube, PS2, etc. emulators.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apples licensing agreements for their software stipulates that they only be run on specific hardware.
muncheese said:
Apples licensing agreements for their software stipulates that they only be run on specific hardware.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better yet, by law "Illegal Distributing of such" will be prosecuted and punishable by law.
as such, licensing agreement does not constitute unless it is being publicly distributed.
Although, realistically this port will never happen and if it will, i am not convinced that it will be very soon.
how about, FU*K the fruit maker, and do what ever we like..
only distribute an possible port in secret..?
But i really doubt this will ever happen, but an emulator or somthing similar for the apps would be NICE..
Doing so will be a giant backward step.
how about, FU*K the fruit maker, and do what ever we like..
only distribute an possible port in secret..?
But i really doubt this will ever happen, but an emulator or somthing similar for the apps would be NICE..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how about, FU*K the fruit maker, and do what ever we like..
only distribute an possible port in secret..?
But i really doubt this will ever happen, but an emulator or somthing similar for the apps would be NICE..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree.. I mean android market is getting bigger each day and getting more popular as verizon's advertisements for the android keeps getting better.
but, to be able to run iphone apps to our beloved nexus one will be a big achievement as there are still lots of iphone apps that i wish to be developed for Android as well, like my favorite Dakeno!
oh by the way this tapatalk app is amazing!
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk
Just because the Android Market is growing, that doesn't necessarily mean that anything is exactly getting better. Apple is still beating us in the game department, and due to their sponsors - they have apps that are like... important? Or, well, more useful to some..
I don't know if Android will ever reach that polished level the iPhone has, regarding to apps that is. I don't even play games really on my phone, if they looked up to par.. then maybe. Android is progressing, though.
Just developed a terrible rash on my taint after reading this thread. Great.
-------------------------------------
Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App
Eclair~ said:
Just because the Android Market is growing, that doesn't necessarily mean that anything is exactly getting better. Apple is still beating us in the game department, and due to their sponsors - they have apps that are like... important? Or, well, more useful to some..
I don't know if Android will ever reach that polished level the iPhone has, regarding to apps that is. I don't even play games really on my phone, if they looked up to par.. then maybe. Android is progressing, though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your comparing an OS that is in its Third/Fourth Iteration to one that is in its Second. To say that iPhone OS 2.0 was fluid and completely polished would be a huge lie. Back then, it did not have the ridiculous catalog of apps that it does now, nor was it as fast as it is now. In time, when Android reaches 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, ect, you will see Android reach a level of polish that the iPhone OS has. Right now, Android is seeing a huge increase in market-share. With this will come developers. With developers, more quality apps will come. Android has the momentum to do it. I would believe that Android will become polished by the end of the year, possibly early next year based off of its growth and progression.

[Q] Will Gaming on Captivate ever take advantage...

Hey everyone, i was looking online about the GPU of the Captivate VS. The Iphone 4. If what i read was correct, the captivate has a much better GPU than the iphone. The only thing i was wondering, is will there ever be a real use of this?
I personally would love to have some of the games that are on the iphone on my captivate.
For example, super monkey ball, or those new games coming out by epic games and ID. They have truly astonishing graphics and look really really awesome.
And as a side question, there would be no easy way of porting an ios game to android or running ios on the captivate, right?
eternalcold said:
Hey everyone, i was looking online about the GPU of the Captivate VS. The Iphone 4. If what i read was correct, the captivate has a much better GPU than the iphone. The only thing i was wondering, is will there ever be a real use of this?
I personally would love to have some of the games that are on the iphone on my captivate.
For example, super monkey ball, or those new games coming out by epic games and ID. They have truly astonishing graphics and look really really awesome.
And as a side question, there would be no easy way of porting an ios game to android or running ios on the captivate, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's upto the game developers to take their skills onto android. I hope they will, but android should at least get rid of paid apps piracy in order for that to happen (same thing with iPhone's jailbreaking, but I don't know how the devs there are still staying with iOS)
Is piracy a problem on Android? It was all over the iPhone community but I've never seen a mention of it here. Anytime anyone mentions it no one thinks it's remotely a good idea because of how open Android is, a pirated app could access any of your data and do whatever it wanted.
MaxRabbit said:
Is piracy a problem on Android? It was all over the iPhone community but I've never seen a mention of it here. Anytime anyone mentions it no one thinks it's remotely a good idea because of how open Android is, a pirated app could access any of your data and do whatever it wanted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, it is an issue. Some of the newby XDA members don't read the rules and have been posting links and downloads to apps that they shouldn't be. There's already a few websites set up that perform the same function as Appulo.us and Apptrackr do for the iPhone. And let's not forget the dozens of torrents that are out there. And a pirated app can do the same thing on an iPhone in regards to your data, there have already been a couple cases if I recall about apps "calling home" with your data.
Its becouse they make good money on the ios platform so they dont give a **** about android. Simple
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
that doesnt make sense because there are more android phones than iphones. i think there aren't enough android phones with great gpus quite yet. there are the galaxy s series which are still relitively unknown and not as well recognised as the droid x and iphone. the the droid xz while better than the evo in 3d is still only about half of what the galaxy s phones are doing. the other phones that are near galaxy s performance in that area are the g2 and mytouch 4g which are faster in other areas, but both being on t-mobile restricts the userbase. i think that the gaming will pick up with the introduction of of more htc phones built with the newwer qualcom chips and the introduction of more android tabs. so all in all we will likely be looking at buying our next phones before we take full advantage of this one.
there are already good ports from the pc of older games like quake and doom but the touchscreen controls aren't that good. may be better with a bluetooth game pad.

Should i buy a Lumia 730?

Should i enter the world of windows?
Without knowing more about what you look for in a smartphone, and what services you already use, it's going to be really hard to make a useful argument.
I mean, practically everybody here uses WP, and many of us have been using it since WP7, and many used WinMo before that. So in general, we're obviously biased in favor of WP. But there's probably all kinds of related things there. For example, we probably haven't dropped a bunch of money on Android or iOS apps, so we don't have that reason to use a different platform. We probably don't rely too heavily on Google services; although some of them work quite well on WP the integration is obviously better on Android. On the other hand, we probably do use OneDrive, OneNote and so on, where the integration is a lot better on WP. We're also more likely to have an Xbox Music pass (what used to be called a Zune Pass), and WP is the only phone OS that can make use of that.
If you care a lot about Xbox Live gaming, then WP is a good choice; it's the only phone platform I know of with XBL support, and there are many games on WP that give XBL achievements and Gamerscore. If you like hacking, it has less malware than Android but is a little more open than iOS, although due to the relatively few people hacking on it progress tends to be slower than on iOS. On the other hand, with relatively few people hacking on it, you can be a big fish in a small pond if you can come up with new hacks or make existing ones work better. Cortana appears to be more powerful (and with better voice recognition) than Siri, and more reliably useful than Google's equivalent. It's easy to get early OS updates if you don't feel like waiting for carriers that drag their feet. WP runs better on low-end phones than Android does, and you can get better battery life out of the same hardware.
Seriously, without more idea of what you're looking for, it's really not going to be easy to tell you. The things that I like about the platform may be completely unrelated to the things you would like.
thanks for you reply
my primary needs in a smartphone are.
1) Camera (i like clicking pictures)
2) Social Networking
3) Gaming
I've used my brothers lumia 520 and found it great. The camera itself was great though its of 5MP.
On the other hand i've also used an android phone and i liked it too playin Clash of Clans all the time
I've not owned a smartphone till now.
And aware of not entering the flagship devices.
I just need a premium midrange phone .
For windows i've opt for L730
and for android the new Moto G 2nd gen.
So what should i do now...
The lumia got that fabula design ahead when compared to moto g
the camera too is great on lumia.
But the moto g has got the things to entertain you when you get bored.
Exploring android is awesome indeed.
You've got CoC when you need to waste time, torrent to download movies.
Dead Trigger to kill zombies
So what should i do?
I like both the device
and my needs are partially separated in bothe the device.
But i just need one to go with.
Give me your help
GoodDayToDie said:
Without knowing more about what you look for in a smartphone, and what services you already use, it's going to be really hard to make a useful argument.
I mean, practically everybody here uses WP, and many of us have been using it since WP7, and many used WinMo before that. So in general, we're obviously biased in favor of WP. But there's probably all kinds of related things there. For example, we probably haven't dropped a bunch of money on Android or iOS apps, so we don't have that reason to use a different platform. We probably don't rely too heavily on Google services; although some of them work quite well on WP the integration is obviously better on Android. On the other hand, we probably do use OneDrive, OneNote and so on, where the integration is a lot better on WP. We're also more likely to have an Xbox Music pass (what used to be called a Zune Pass), and WP is the only phone OS that can make use of that.
If you care a lot about Xbox Live gaming, then WP is a good choice; it's the only phone platform I know of with XBL support, and there are many games on WP that give XBL achievements and Gamerscore. If you like hacking, it has less malware than Android but is a little more open than iOS, although due to the relatively few people hacking on it progress tends to be slower than on iOS. On the other hand, with relatively few people hacking on it, you can be a big fish in a small pond if you can come up with new hacks or make existing ones work better. Cortana appears to be more powerful (and with better voice recognition) than Siri, and more reliably useful than Google's equivalent. It's easy to get early OS updates if you don't feel like waiting for carriers that drag their feet. WP runs better on low-end phones than Android does, and you can get better battery life out of the same hardware.
Seriously, without more idea of what you're looking for, it's really not going to be easy to tell you. The things that I like about the platform may be completely unrelated to the things you would like.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't have xbox either
cabba403 said:
thanks for you reply
my primary needs in a smartphone are.
1) Camera (i like clicking pictures)
2) Social Networking
3) Gaming
I've used my brothers lumia 520 and found it great. The camera itself was great though its of 5MP.
On the other hand i've also used an android phone and i liked it too playin Clash of Clans all the time
I've not owned a smartphone till now.
And aware of not entering the flagship devices.
I just need a premium midrange phone .
For windows i've opt for L730
and for android the new Moto G 2nd gen.
So what should i do now...
The lumia got that fabula design ahead when compared to moto g
the camera too is great on lumia.
But the moto g has got the things to entertain you when you get bored.
Exploring android is awesome indeed.
You've got CoC when you need to waste time, torrent to download movies.
Dead Trigger to kill zombies
So what should i do?
I like both the device
and my needs are partially separated in bothe the device.
But i just need one to go with.
Give me your help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can actually torrent on wp, but if ou really like gaming on your cellphone you're better off with an android, just make sure the specs are high enough!
matgras said:
You can actually torrent on wp, but if ou really like gaming on your cellphone you're better off with an android, just make sure the specs are high enough!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but i love Lumia too !
cabba403 said:
but i love Lumia too !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows phones are absolutely fantastic on my opinion and any other OS just doesn't feel right, there are a lot of games on wp but android simply has more.
But it's up to you to decide

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