The greenscreen problem in the 1.56 roms is caused by the disptools.dll driver. Whenever you want to cook a rom based on this rom version simply replace the disptools.dll file from e.g. the 1.19 rom and the greenscreen problem is gone. It took me quite some time to track this down to a specific driver. However, glad I finally found out. Hope it helps.
i replaced 1.56 sys completely with topaz shipped sys. -> no problems.
didn't have time to play around with xip yet.
please link topaz sys
thanks
kwbr said:
- Replace the xip and sys, keep oem: system hangs at smart mobility screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you have done something wrong? Have you relocated the addresses using G'Reloc?
Niggurath said:
i replaced 1.56 sys completely with topaz shipped sys. -> no problems.
didn't have time to play around with xip yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which spl do you use?
lewent said:
please link topaz sys
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Take a look into the Topaz forums, there you will find the latest rom release.
johnpatcher said:
Maybe you have done something wrong? Have you relocated the addresses using G'Reloc?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, maybe. Will give it another try tomorrow. A bit tired, not the best moment to work on these things The green screen only appears with hspl.
kwbr said:
The green screen only appears with hspl.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know, had experienced it for myself .
I' cooking a rom right now, maybe I will flash HSPL later on again (as I switched back to stock spl and used USPL).
i updated my phone to 1.54 spl and use USPL for flashing my cooked rom.
Niggurath said:
i updated my phone to 1.54 spl and use USPL for flashing my cooked rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know. Had 1.54 running. The thing is (maybe completely pointless), I want to know what is causing the green screen, drivers, xip
green screen is over in touch screen, bigger problem here. Cant get active synch with pc to go back pppfff
harley4 said:
Cant get active synch with pc to go back pppfff
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't need to have ActiveSync in order to get back. Read through the various threads, you have to reflash you stock spl, and then flash the new one using uspl.
johnpatcher said:
You don't need to have ActiveSync in order to get back. Read through the various threads, you have to reflash you stock spl, and then flash the new one using uspl.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and how do you do this with no connection
harley4 said:
and how do you do this with no connection
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just plug in the usb cable and go to the tri-color screen. There will be a connection, without ActiveSync .
johnpatcher said:
Just plug in the usb cable and go to the tri-color screen. There will be a connection, without ActiveSync .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, tried it before. Tried it just now, no connection.
Have to get a micro SD adapter so i can flash it the disk way
what i did was extract 1.14 rom replace the rom and sys with the 1.56 rom and sys. in the oem replace all the package, OperatorPkg, OperatorPkg, OEMVersion, ConnectionSetupDB and cook it then it works on hspl with no green fuzzy screen
i had the same problem
this is a simple solution, u need to use Restore_Stock_SPL_115 and then the rom and it will work fine, i did the same this morning and its working fine.
harley4 said:
Nope, tried it before. Tried it just now, no connection.
Have to get a micro SD adapter so i can flash it the disk way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you are seeing the tri-color screen says serial even though USB is plugged in?
I experienced the same thing last night - and ended up flashing a different rom using micro-SD adapter. I think you have the right idea
teimoshi said:
what i did was extract 1.14 rom replace the rom and sys with the 1.56 rom and sys. in the oem replace all the package, OperatorPkg, OperatorPkg, OEMVersion, ConnectionSetupDB and cook it then it works on hspl with no green fuzzy screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, tell us what is causing the green screen then
pmcall said:
So you are seeing the tri-color screen says serial even though USB is plugged in?
I experienced the same thing last night - and ended up flashing a different rom using micro-SD adapter. I think you have the right idea
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
up and running again pppffff
kwbr said:
Ok, tell us what is causing the green screen then
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the 1.56 OEMDrivers causing my HD green fuzzy screen and unable to switch the phone on it either lock on airplane, bluetooth and wireless mode
teimoshi said:
the 1.56 OEMDrivers causing my HD green fuzzy screen and unable to switch the phone on it either lock on airplane, bluetooth and wireless mode
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, lets try to pin point it down to one of the drivers then.
Related
WARNING
This is a HTC test rom and was never given to the general public
Note the rom and radio version
This could be of intrest to cookers and rom hackers
http://rapidshare.com/files/1784304...9.405.2_Radio_52.46.25.26_1.08.25.23_Test.exe
I wonder if theres any difference in 3G bands.
This wouldn't be something i would want to just flash to right? I should wait for a rom cook? Is there a chance of bricking my phone trying it?
Anyone? Can i try out this rom on my phone without risking a brick?
The instalation brick at 13% for me, when i reboot, i have the tricolor screen of the bootloader so no problem to flash another rom but this one doesn't work for me
The SPL 1.14 olipro may be the problem?
Anybody have just the radio extracted from the ROM?
EDIT: I have modified the htcrt.exe tool and added blackstone to the configuration files. I will post the radio in a little bit.
AllTheWay
You are to cool
HDuser said:
AllTheWay
You are to cool
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I tried to flash just the radio.
I got a update failed error.
Blackstone said:
00018003 BLACIMG.nbh - fail
Upgrade ROM code error Please try again
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am downloading the stock ROM now to flash the radio cause I don't have stock blackstone radio by it self.
In the bootloader it reads RUUNBH
Upgrade ROM code error Please try again.
USB
Let us know.
Turb0wned said:
Let us know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everything is all good with the device..
Downloaded the WWE 1.19 ROM that cmonex posted. http://rs95.rapidshare.com/files/17....831.0_Radio_52.49a.25.26_1.09.25.14_Ship.exe
All is well.
No luck with this rom then?
Among other things, there's MFG SPL 1.07 bundled with this RUU. Avoid!
probably you set radio value to 0x300 in htcrt. problem - it must be set to 0x301.
AllTheWay said:
Well I tried to flash just the radio.
I got a update failed error.
I am downloading the stock ROM now to flash the radio cause I don't have stock blackstone radio by it self.
In the bootloader it reads RUUNBH
Upgrade ROM code error Please try again.
USB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
stepw said:
Among other things, there's MFG SPL 1.07 bundled with this RUU. Avoid!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
are you also getting the problem of screen not turning on after a resume with MFG SPL installed?
cmonex said:
probably you set radio value to 0x300 in htcrt. problem - it must be set to 0x301.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried to flash this radio once again. Radio fail 0x301 was set.
ICR
Hi there,
Is it possible to see if the ICR (in call recording) app is included in this rom like it was discussed in some other threads. They were talking about a test rom form HTC. And maybe could be extracted ?
Thanks
cmonex said:
are you also getting the problem of screen not turning on after a resume with MFG SPL installed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kernel is not loading, stuck in OEMInit if OS is booted from MFG SPL 1.07 loaded via USPL. Didn't try flashing it though...
Has anyone got this radio to work yet?
Not that I know of. Would like to be able to flash this radio.
AllTheWay said:
Not that I know of. Would like to be able to flash this radio.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People in Raphael forum have mentioned they tried it and high battery usage is the only "benefit"...
You dont meant that they tried it on the HD right?
I posted this deep in another thread (a sticky), but I think it fits better as a new topic because it is not specific to that other thread. I'll make a note in the other thread to avoid duplicates.
Okay....
I'm absolutely new to the world of ROMs and SPL, HSPL, SSPL and USPL - but I've been doing my homework today and I've read all of the wiki links more than once.
Before diving into it and making some dumb newbie mistake, I wanted to run a couple of things by you guys.
I have the German o2 ROM 1.14.207.2 (24011) GER.
I don't want the o2 branding, but I still want it in German.
So, I want to flash RUU_BlackStone_HTC_GER_1.14.407.3_Radio_52.49a.25. 26_1.09.25.14_Ship.exe
My understanding is that since these are both stock ROMs (at least I believe they both are, right?), my stock SPL should accept the new ROM without any problems. In other words, I don't need anything like USPL. Am I correct? Or do I actually need USPL because the new ROM is not from my current vendor which is o2?
Based on what I learned reading all the info, this is what I plan to do:
Turn off my phone, remove SIM and MicroSD
Enter boot mode (tricolor screen)
connect phone via usb to WMDC (Vista 32-bit). The settings are set to ALLOW usb connections
Disable my antivirus program
Disable all power saving modes, screensavers etc.
Run the RUU Ship.exe mentioned above as administrator
Follow instructions until device reboots
So now my warranty should still be fine. If I have to send the device in for repair, to I need to put the o2 ROM back on it?
Thanks for your help (and patience) with a newbie that scared to turn his HD into a brick. I think I'll wear diapers while I'm flashing - just in case.
I'll wait for some responses before I tackle the 7 steps above.
Chris Cross said:
My understanding is that since these are both stock ROMs (at least I believe they both are, right?), my stock SPL should accept the new ROM without any problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, thats not true at all. For instance you can't flash a WWE Rom over a German Rom, although they are both stock roms. There is a country specific code (CID). The stock SPL is checking this, so its impossible to flash roms coming from another country.
I'm not sure if the stock SPL also checks the vendor/operator, but I guess it does.
Chris Cross said:
In other words, I don't need anything like USPL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should just try it. The SPL will tell you whether it accepts the rom or not.
Chris Cross said:
Based on what I learned reading all the info, this is what I plan to do:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all you should consider which SPL you want to use. If you really just want to flash this new rom, USPL is good for you, if you are going to change your rom more frequently then HSPL is the way to go.
Instructions on how to use this SPLs are given in the appreciate threads (with many comments of other users), so you should look them up (again).
Chris Cross said:
So now my warranty should still be fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You warrany is fine, if the operator/vendor gets the device with the rom he shipped it to you (or any official upgrade provided by this operator/vendor). If you flash the official htc german rom, you might loose your warranty.
Chris Cross said:
If I have to send the device in for repair, to I need to put the o2 ROM back on it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, normally you do.
Chris Cross said:
Thanks for your help (and patience) with a newbie that scared to turn his HD into a brick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are doing all as mentioned in the appreciate instructions nothing extraordinary should happen. I have flashed my HD for over 15 times in the last few days.
Chris Cross said:
I think I'll wear diapers while I'm flashing - just in case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Normally that shouldn't change anything .
Chris Cross said:
[*]connect phone via usb to WMDC (Vista 32-bit). The settings are set to ALLOW usb connections
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the USPL thread carefully - you have to disable allow usb connections. In vista you will probably find that you will have to downgrade the USB drivers - that is dealt with in Post 69 of the USPL thread - see also post 1 of http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=291723
apd said:
Read the USPL thread carefully - you have to disable allow usb connections. In vista you will probably find that you will have to downgrade the USB drivers - that is dealt with in Post 69 of the USPL thread - see also post 1 of http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=291723
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, I had read that about disabling usb connections. I just thought that if I did not need USPL then I could leave usb connections enabled and try the other german ship.exe rom. Anyway, I think might need to alter the SPL anyway.
THANK YOU ALL for your responses. They were very helpful and it is time for me to get working on it when I get home.
I will post back my results.
Well, everything worked out fine.
I ended having to use USPL because my SPL did not accept the new stock ROM (same language, but different vendor: o2 vs. non-branded).
I did have to downgrade my vista drivers for it to work. I followed all the wiki instructions and had no problems.
Thanks again for the help.
Sercurity Unlocker
Will the blackstone have to be security unlocked to flash cooked ROMs or will it be done in the HSPL?
primbcadman said:
Will the blackstone have to be security unlocked to flash cooked ROMs or will it be done in the HSPL?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Security unlock matters for radio flashing only.
Security unlocker.
stepw said:
Security unlock matters for radio flashing only.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for reply. pity tho after bought unlocked thc touch hd will have to pay for that again just to get security unlocker, like I did for touch pro.
Its working now - keeping my fingers crossed... it obviously wasn't bricked... i don't know what happened but all i did was flash the radio to what it came with 1.00.25.05 and voila!
guys i need help... i think my diamond is bricked - maybe someone here could tell me if it really has or is there a way out.
the first screen appears the touch diamond screen, and then the windows screen (the green one) and then it restarts... and this is what keeps on happening...
any idea? any help would be much appreciated!
thanks
ps. already tried hard reset... same thing happens...
ps. 1.40olinex unsigned
Have you tried a HARD reset?
tried hard reset - no help
Maybe the ROM is corrupted on yuor phone. Try getting to bootloader and flashing again.
the_scotsman said:
Maybe the ROM is corrupted on yuor phone. Try getting to bootloader and flashing again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i got into the bootloader - connected it to the USB - shows USB on the bottom... how do i flash a rom then? CustomRUU? or is there a way to place the nbh on the internal storage?
There's No way to place it on the internal storage if you cant get into Windows. This is why I always keep a copy of my current ROM in the Internal Storage, so i can reflash if I need to.
Try doing it over USB, it should still work.
no luck
the_scotsman said:
There's No way to place it on the internal storage if you cant get into Windows. This is why I always keep a copy of my current ROM in the Internal Storage, so i can reflash if I need to.
Try doing it over USB, it should still work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tried a couple of times... restarts... either at 10% or 12% or 23%... tried rebuilding the nbh as well
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=409425
it just restarts randomly!
rom flashed, radio flashed - still restarts
flashed ROM & Radio... but problem still there... restarts after first windows green screen
cloudedhopes said:
flashed ROM & Radio... but problem still there... restarts after first windows green screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if its under warrenty, flash original ROM, Radio and SPL then send it back as faulty
mugglesquop said:
if its under warrenty, flash original ROM, Radio and SPL then send it back as faulty
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i want that to be the last option i want to try more! someone should have some help here... i hope
mugglesquop said:
if its under warrenty, flash original ROM, Radio and SPL then send it back as faulty
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey thanks man - you gave me the idea of going back to originals... i only went back to original radio and it's working
your phone probably didn't like that particular hard-SPL version.
ok, so I tried to upgrade to 1.56 (stock), and yes I now have the dodgy looking screen and phone is stuck in 'Phone Off' mode.
I didn't think I needed to do anything other than run the exe from HTC.
so, anyway..yes I'm screwed.
I've got the list of instructions from an earlier post about flashing 1.56, and am trying to follow them (seems my phone has Olinex1.14 on it - which I've never used as I've never flashed this phone before)
but..I can't connect to my phone, when I plug the usb cable in, I get the screen which asks me which type of connections I want Active sync, disc drive etc, but the screen on my phone is totally unresponsive. the screen then disappears and I'm nowhere...
If I can't connect to my phone, how do I run the file to flash back to 1.14 as per the instructions?
thanks
hm i would try it in bootloader mode?
USB
twisted-pixel said:
ok, so I tried to upgrade to 1.56 (stock), and yes I now have the dodgy looking screen and phone is stuck in 'Phone Off' mode.
I didn't think I needed to do anything other than run the exe from HTC.
so, anyway..yes I'm screwed.
I've got the list of instructions from an earlier post about flashing 1.56, and am trying to follow them (seems my phone has Olinex1.14 on it - which I've never used as I've never flashed this phone before)
but..I can't connect to my phone, when I plug the usb cable in, I get the screen which asks me which type of connections I want Active sync, disc drive etc, but the screen on my phone is totally unresponsive. the screen then disappears and I'm nowhere...
If I can't connect to my phone, how do I run the file to flash back to 1.14 as per the instructions?
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you take the battery out and make sure the USB is not connected.
After a few seconds, put the battery back in.
Next press the down button on the side of the phone and keep it pressed, press the power button as normal.
Does anything appear on the screen?
Next, if you get the coloured screen with 'Serial' at the bottom, if you plug in the USB cable and connect to a PC, does 'Serial' change to read 'USB'.
If it does all of this, your phone is not dead.
I've had to try a different machine..which is working....thank god.
but the issue now is that our virus software is preventing me from downloading USPL2.5, is there another way to to use this file? I know that people have experience issues with this before (although not necessarily this particular file) and they have used a wrapper to bypass the virus protection pop up
ok..ignore that...I don't need it, my phone is not CID locked.
thanks to everyone though. I was in major panic mode for a while
I was going to try the Stock HTC ROM upgrade tonight, but my phone is an early Orange no splash screen or orange branding but it definately locked to orange....
do I have to unlock it prior to doing even the HTC ROM upgrade?
Geeba said:
I was going to try the Stock HTC ROM upgrade tonight, but my phone is an early Orange no splash screen or orange branding but it definately locked to orange....
do I have to unlock it prior to doing even the HTC ROM upgrade?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You may have to. Just try the rom upgrade. If it yells something about an "invalid vendor ID" just use USPL to apply the rom upgrade. If you need information on how look at the guide in my signature.
cRaCKwHoRe said:
You may have to. Just try the rom upgrade. If it yells something about an "invalid vendor ID" just use USPL to apply the rom upgrade. If you need information on how look at the guide in my signature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey there i had a quick question my telstra HD comes in today. Can i just run the USPL and then load the updated ROM your talking bot off the site? Other wise i was going to load a Dutty's. Sorry to go off topic
cRaCKwHoRe said:
You may have to. Just try the rom upgrade. If it yells something about an "invalid vendor ID" just use USPL to apply the rom upgrade. If you need information on how look at the guide in my signature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanx crackwhore! appreciate the pointers... pretty new to phones... I tend to hack consoles etc!
ratchetjaw said:
Hey there i had a quick question my telstra HD comes in today. Can i just run the USPL and then load the updated ROM your talking bot off the site? Other wise i was going to load a Dutty's. Sorry to go off topic
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah you can load any 1.56 rom whether it is cooked or original using USPL (if your SPL is 1.54.0000 in the bootloader).
cRaCKwHoRe said:
Yeah you can load any 1.56 rom whether it is cooked or original using USPL (if your SPL is 1.54.0000 in the bootloader).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok thanks for the quick response. I am going t follow your sticky once i get home and get the phone. If i dont have he 1.54.0000 i will put it on there. Kind of excited and nervous at the same time lol
ratchetjaw said:
Ok thanks for the quick response. I am going t follow your sticky once i get home and get the phone. If i dont have he 1.54.0000 i will put it on there. Kind of excited and nervous at the same time lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Understood I was too my first time...
Hello,
I know you guys got some excellent walkthroughs, roms, programs and threads where you've helped a lot of people out but I could really use some personal feedback. I had hoped to fix my phone using one of the excisting threads but unfortunalty I can't get it to work with those.
My problem is one I've seen more of in here, I used the SE updater and it froze at 53%, I did what the program said, reconnected and it froze again at 12%, and again, again, etc. So I disconnected thinking it might be a bad USB port. But then the updater didn't recognise my phone at all. So I used the mtty program suggested in some of the threads and I got past the red/green/blue screen but now it's stuck at the Sony Ericson logo, as if WM6.1 is gone.
This is what the red/green/blue screen currently states:
KOV110
SPL-0.78.0000
MicroP1-787
MicroP2-707
From what I gather this means I can't flash roms, right? I tried making it a hard-spl but when I use the tool it says it can't connect.
So is there anyway to get a rom on it and bring it back to life?
Thanks inadvance!
Get an original rom from here : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=475482
copy .nbh file from the package onto your sd card and rename it to : Kovsimg.nbh then bring phone into boot loader via : vol down + power.
It should flash the rom now. i the problem is still present after that you
have to deal with mTTy but first try the flash...
i think you could also bring phone into bootloader without sd card inserted then connect usb cable, display should now print 'USB',and after that start rom update utility.
regards
meska said:
Get an original rom from here : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=475482
copy .nbh file from the package onto your sd card and rename it to : Kovsimg.nbh then bring phone into boot loader via : vol down + power.
It should flash the rom now. i the problem is still present after that you
have to deal with mTTy but first try the flash...
i think you could also bring phone into bootloader without sd card inserted then connect usb cable, display should now print 'USB',and after that start rom update utility.
regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your reply, I will do as you said although I've already tried something similiar to this. I believe the problem was that I couldn't flash roms from my SD since I don't have the hard SLD. But I will try it anyway as soon as I get home.
In the mean time I would love to hear more ideas about how to fix my phone.
Ronnet said:
Thank you for your reply, I will do as you said although I've already tried something similiar to this. I believe the problem was that I couldn't flash roms from my SD since I don't have the hard SLD. But I will try it anyway as soon as I get home.
In the mean time I would love to hear more ideas about how to fix my phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You really need have to flash the HardSPL first as, based in your above post, you still have not done that. It will be useless to flash cooked ROM with that. If you can still power on your phone and you have an activesynch in your computer, i suggest you download the HardSPL first and update your phone using your PC. If you are successful doing that, then you can flash all you want.
original roms will still work with original spl... but nevermind =P
laurence0609 said:
You really need have to flash the HardSPL first as, based in your above post, you still have not done that. It will be useless to flash cooked ROM with that. If you can still power on your phone and you have an activesynch in your computer, i suggest you download the HardSPL first and update your phone using your PC. If you are successful doing that, then you can flash all you want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My phone can still power on in the sense that it shows the Sony Ericson logo or that I can access the three collor screen. But it won't launch WM6.1. I also have a problem with updating to hard DSL. It does recognise my phone because without it connected the program finds nothing and with the phone connected it wants to start updating. It says ''updating from image version: (emply) to image version: 1.00.X1 Ipress next and it opens a progress bar on both my X1 and the PC. But it never goes beyond 0% and then gives me an connection error. I think it has something to do with not being able to get passed the Sony Ericson logo. I mean the hard-DSL program does recognise my mobile but activeSync is never active because my PC doesn't recognise a WinMobile phone (since it wont go past the Sony Ericson screen)
meska said:
original roms will still work with original spl... but nevermind =P
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? That might fix my device then. Could you suggest a rom from the long list? Perhaps one that works on all versions? Because I'm dutch but my mobile has always been in english so I'm not sure what rom version I had. Except that it was identified as an R2 Rom by the Sony updater before it killed my X1...
Go here
Find the latest stock rom for your country (and perhaps your carrier) and flash it
No need to have Hard SPL for that
Mopral said:
Go here
Find the latest stock rom for your country (and perhaps your carrier) and flash it
No need to have Hard SPL for that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm now downloading the initial dutch R1 firmwire, could that one work?
Mopral said:
Go here
Find the latest stock rom for your country (and perhaps your carrier) and flash it
No need to have Hard SPL for that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Alright so I got an R1 original rom (I now realize that the R3's were originals aswell) and it worked! I'm not sure if it was the different rom or the formatting with FAT32 that did but it works again. So I'd like to thank everyone who was kind enough to reply.
The device is incredibly slow now but now I can use the hard-DSL installer, right? DOes anyone have a suggestion for a good rom to use?
laurence0609 said:
You really need have to flash the HardSPL first as, based in your above post, you still have not done that. It will be useless to flash cooked ROM with that. If you can still power on your phone and you have an activesynch in your computer, i suggest you download the HardSPL first and update your phone using your PC. If you are successful doing that, then you can flash all you want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DON'T hard-spl if you're going to flash a stock ROM. And especially if you're going to use SEUS.
Try flashing the R3A first. The R1s are way slow, as you've seen.