Related
All this superhero DONATEWARE OH MY GOD NO bull**** needs to stop. It is not, and never was, the intent of nathan or pulser to charge money for a rom. Superhero 1.0.0 was clearly marked a beta test, and under normal circumstances would have only been tested by the villain team. However, being nice dudes, they decided to let people who paid for their website and hosting try it out as well as an added bonus for their donation.
Let me remind you again that this entire time, superhero was clearly marked beta test and every indication was made that a less buggy and feature complete version would be released to the public on xda.
Of course, all you entitled sons of *****es cried that it was UNFAIR and that you wanted to be a part of the cool kids club, simply because your internet ego was so goddamn big that you thought you could get whatever you wanted from crying hard enough. Well, when you didn't get your way of course you just started crying more about how unfair it was, how terrible the villain team was, how they ate babies to fuel their rom-o-tron 9000, and how they lied publicly about superhero to get the dollars.
Well, things certainly look different now, dont they? Superhero 1.1.0 is public and free, just like you wanted, and you dont care because feeyo is your newest internet qq target. Shut the **** up, let our devs work, and take your bull**** crying out of the DEVELOPMENT forum so the devs can work without you filling their threads with nonsense.
Mods: please let this stay in development for a while so everyone can read it.
I just lol'd
I too lol'd. I lol'd in agreement.
lol you got some serious frustrations. And yes Feeyo has dropped here with the best rom out at the moment.
Go cry man. And please remove this thread or drop it in general or put it in the cry baby thread.
Wanker
I love you.
And this free publishing, why ?????
Is this not a forum ???
Can I say EVERYTHING that I want, with respect????
Stop teaching me how good and ONG is the villainteam, please, I have my own opinion, and don't need to hear your apocaliptic sermon.
Regards
PS. Please, delete this thread, noting important apporting to the forum
against gpl
its against gpl to take money for it ;p
Moving this thread to off-topic since it is not directly related to Android development. There is an expiring redirect in place so that people viewing the forum can find the thread in its new home.
Going forward, please keep language in check, or the thread will have to be closed and removed from public view. Remember, XDA is a family-friendly forum.
Thanks,
NATF
trasig said:
its against gpl to take money for it ;p
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I think OP's point was more, they're not taking money for it. They're doing a closed beta with their donators. If other people want to help out by donating and testing, there's no problem, surely.
I just can't grasp how incredibly tight you'd have to be to begrudge a guy a few quid when he dedicates that much time to development, "against the GPL" or otherwise
developing said:
All this superhero DONATEWARE OH MY GOD NO b****t needs to stop. It is not, and never was, the intent of nathan or pulser to charge money for a rom. Superhero 1.0.0 was clearly marked a beta test, and under normal circumstances would have only been tested by the villain team. However, being nice dudes, they decided to let people who paid for their website and hosting try it out as well as an added bonus for their donation.
Mods: please let this stay in development for a while so everyone can read it.
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Please watch you lenguage. Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion but with rescpect for this forum and its users
shenshang said:
I just lol'd
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rayjt9 said:
I too lol'd. I lol'd in agreement.
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^^
What they said
Seriously... No comment.
i'm ashamed to say i got it off usenet without donating, but i don't believe that's legally theft.
we should have a forum for inter-ROM team toe2toes.
I don't care about donateware, as long as I don't see it on the forum.
apesgrapes said:
i'm ashamed to say i got it off usenet without donating, but i don't believe that's legally theft.
we should have a forum for inter-ROM team toe2toes.
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No, it's not theft at all because Android (and derivatives) are licenced under the GNU GPL.
Doing a 'little bonus' for people that donated is nothing wrong IMHO, but apparently it can quickly look like something else.
so on that subject, I completely agree with the OP.
I don't agree with his tone and language, but I do agree on his statement .
What this has to do with Freeyo and his ROM is a mystery to me though. More and more I see why dev's go away from XDA... the most vocal people on the fourm are the users of the ROMs and the devs don't have a normal place to talk amongst each other besides moving to different forums or use something else... a shame.
the mentality of the Android (and (gsm) Hero specially) section is sooo much different from the WinMo section I for example don't want to try cooking for Android... there is little to no community feel on XDA on the Android sections.
Anyone that decide to post their works on xda have to know what is the purposing of the forum...
If anyone don't agree with this way of work, then can choose any of the million of forums in the web.....
I think is very simply...
Regards....
EDIT: And don't forget that a lot of dev's that today have their own forum, had started their job here, and used the forum for their purposing.....
trasig said:
its against gpl to take money for it ;p
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nope, that is a common misconception that a lot of people have about the gpl. as a matter of fact there is nothing in the gpl that restricts people from selling it, the only requirement of the gpl is that the source code has to be released and thats it. there are tons of commercial software out there that contains gpl code.
and for those of you who wants proof here is a link to the official gpl faq:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney
lol... so ppl who actually pay money are the ones to get the buggiest version of your software? Nice policy I'm sure you'd have tons of happy customers I wouldn't have cared the tiniest bit about superhero being donate rom (since there are plenty of fast vanilla roms out there), had it not been a thread in the development section for more than a week?! I mean... I'm ok with ppl selling stuff, I'm not okay with selling it on xda...
Android is open. That's why I have my Samsung Galaxy S, my Nexus One and my Sapphire.
I have these phones because the open community can do better than the professionals, and I am proud to be a member of a community that has recently hacked Froyo onto the G1, Android2HD2 (and other Winmo devices), created great skins and themes, rooted almost every droid to date, hacked google navigation to work in other countries etc etc etc.
There is amazing work being done is this community.
Kingklick was able to put out a lot of ROMs which satisfied a lot of people. Contributors to Cyanogenmod (disclaimer. notably not Cyanogen himself) and others (fans and friends - disclaimer. note lack of word fanboys - of cyanogenmod, disclaimer. plus some others too) have flamed and flamed away about Kangklick (notably via twitter - I have stopped following any of those jerks that clogged up my feeds with what could've - screw that - should've been settled MUCH more privately..I followed you guys for dev news or the occasional interesting insight into your real life, not your petty bickering, but you have every right to post what you like...hence why I stopped following you all, I didn't flame you...note 'bigger man').
Rule 12 of XDArules clearly states that using the work of others must be done with permission, independent of whether it is open source or not. If this is not upheld then the post will be bought down, it does not say the user will be banned. I would understand the formality of taking the post down and requesting Kingklick reposts the ROM with due credit, but I believe - note believe...implies opinion - that moderators may have been influenced by pressure from other (high ranking, public eye) members and thus did not adhere to normal or just (I do not know if not giving creds is normally treated in this way, but you will discover I believe it shouldn't be) protacol. Kingklick broke the rules of XDA, but then again I see his banning as the least contentious issue here.
I believe that members of the XDA community in the public eye (ie with large Twitter follower base) due to their work via XDA (no matter what you say, cyanogenmod may be based at its own domain, but it still posts at XDA to maintain its public profile and feed of the massive XDA userbase, and is hence in part bound by this) have a responsibility to follow the rules of XDA on XDA rules and disputes. I do not think this is something which can be policed ('I'm banning you Wes for Trolling Kingklick...on Twitter'... not gonna work) but I think it is a moral obligation (anyone that thinks the internet is not bound by morality should take a reality check...the reason why we have open source is essentially ethics).
Do we give credit to Linus Torvalds every time we distribute linux kernels or work to do with linux? Do we give credit to those that helped him create this base? Do we give credit to Google for creating Android? HTC? Our carriers? Martin Cooper for inventing the mobile phone and cell networks? Time Berners-Lee for inventing the internet, giving rise to this forum, Google and thus the Phones/Devices we love and use? The fact is we don't give credit where due (although you may say its obscure to thank these people, they DO deserve our thanks). None of the ROM chefs/coders give all credit where due, but a lot do in part, with those directly involved. But who still thanks the original rooters?
Kingklick has been declared a copier by the jury...I haven't delved through the evidence to confirm this...but shouldn't we be much more relaxed about copying in general? All users should be open about their work with Android, but they are not. If kingklick based a build off Cyanongenmod, and gave due credit for that, he would be called unoriginal, despite his attempts to make improvements. I also believe that there should be transparency, a log of all complaints of interest and the community told in a statement from the mods why someone was banned...at least in part (keeping gory details to themselves thank you very much).
Donations are generally given by 'end-users'...noobs who can flash and maybe do some work on the builds but their contributions are limited. End users generally want user experience, and reward devs with commendation and donations. If kingklick does work on a build which satisfies more users and he hence gets donations, is that stealing donations? No. The original dev works on an open source project knowing that their work is open, but the end user can reward as he/she likes. Perhaps kingklick developed his following due to his branding...he did always use words like FAST and STABLE and SMOOTH, but Apple do the same and they're not banned from trading despite the hyperbole.
I do not doubt that a lot of devs thanks fellow devs with donations. Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick, however a lot of donations come from end users, and if kingklick replaces a few files using winrar (something which I generally contest, I believe kingklick does a lot of great work) and that satisfies more end users by being fast and stable and smooth (or perceived as being so thanks to branding) then he can get donations for that, they are a gesture of satisfaction and goodwill.
Kingklick was immoral by not giving true credit, however I believe that he could have been warned and asked to give credit once he got back from his night out (whether that excuse, or what ever his actual excuse was, was true).
I also laugh at the accusation that kingklick does not fill a niche within the 'open'/'free' community. This should not result in grudges and flame wars, whether it is true or not. Kingklick did fill a niche in my opinion: reviewers (and consumers) see vanilla android as being sterile. Hell it is sterile, and it's never going to be as successful as others if it doesn't sort this out. Cyanogenmod and other big names are based off this sterile form of Android, but they don't delve into Sense UI and other alternative skins, mainly due to preferences or copyright problems etc, not that that stops them with other things. Kingklick did work with these and he filled his niche by delivering great, fast, usable roms of these whilst others sneered at them for being inefficient coding or whatever...geeky snobbery.
Kingklick also delivered various fixes and things which other groups did not. I won't list all of these and I am sure representatives of Cyanogenmob et al will say 'we were gonna fix these issues anyways' or 'that's redundant' or 'that was patchy code', but kingklick has contributed. Obviously we have to hold ethics above output, we can not say that 'his holiness' (inteneded to mock those who believe cyanogen alone is a god, not cyanogen himself) Cyanogen's contributions to android exempt him from following conduct, but we do a great job of driving away good developers with flaming and telling tales. Perhaps you'll say kingklick was not a good developer, Drizzy, even Haykuro etc etc, but I only flashed Cyanogenmod on my Nexus once and I didn't like it for various reasons (personal preference yada yada) but I kept going back for more kingklick...whether that's perceived speed and branding etc or just satisfaction.
King's desire roms are great, but we never mobbed, trolled and banned the poor guy for not giving creds to HTC. Surely the morality of our community using software like Rosie on the Nexus is more ethically questionable than a fellow member of XDA's work, since HTC is a firm which employs people. I bought a Nexus over the Desire because I knew I could still have Sense and a bigger dev community, however the cost included in the Desire which goes to the developers of Sense is hence forgone (perhaps indeirectly, I don;t know HTC internal funding); therefore I have - and anyone who has ever flashed a Sense ROM or devved with Sense - indirectly caused loss of welfare for people who rely of developing as their source of income, tehir families, communities and economies. Surely that is less ethical than not saying thank you, but XDA has no problem with that. Perhaps it is too small to notice, but it will have an indirect impact nonetheless.
Yes kingklick should've said his please and thank you, but I think it's community hyped double standards, pretensical courtesy (not that I wouldn't give creds, it's just that pleases and thank yous are nice, but not actually useful). A wise man once said 'there is no threshold for immorality', just because kingklick did a larger 'crime' than the rest of the community in not giving his thanks out, that does not exempt the other rule breakers (ie everyone), it just means their punishment should be less severe...we choose to ignore it because it's less direct or forgotten about.
In conclusion, I think we should start a 'contributors to Android' part of XDA, added to by mods or specifically appointed members of the community (like the portal). This could be informative and could mean that forgotten about contributors could not be forgotten, but their contributions immortalised in the open community of Android. Even if the contributions become redundant, they are the foundations for the next chapter in the Android story.
Finally. www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a very good read..and think about what AOSP stands for (I'll give you a clue...Android Open Source Project!). Can you steal what is open? What right have others to dictate what can and cannot be distributed in the open aspects of Android code (ie the underlying OS and vanilla UI...I'm not confused with Apps). Perhaps kingklick was guilty of plagiarism? But so is anyone that claims they worked really hard in that kernel without crediting Linus and leaving a donation link to his family or favourite charitable causes. Anyone that says I've reworked the UI without giving credits to The Astonishing Tribe for the original Android concepts which all UIs are based off...
Android is closed, that's why I question this 'community'.
I am not proud to be a member of this 'community'...right now.
Ps. Cyanogenmob was originally a typo (using words like mobbed in my piece...Freudian slip on the keyboard rather than fat finger syndrome)...but I kept it in as I thought it was funny...the Cyogenmob should replace team douche IMHO!
Wow, didn't realise how long it was...out of interest has anyone actually read the whole thing !?
Yeah, I read it and agree to some extent.
While what he did was wrong, he shouldn't be banned for it. I do not know all the circumstances around it but from what I read it appears he made sense UI for the Nexus one?
I believe that cyanogen is becoming more and more powerful as a body and it is starting to strong arm others when they believe they are in the wrong. I don't understand why people should shunned as he was simply because he didn't give due credit. From seeing all these devs get the boot from websites because they didn't give all the sources for their work. This is a major hinderance from some people wanting to develop new ROMs. I mean it seems that some people want to get credit for what they did and want to have the fame of what they developed, and not just because they wanted to further the development of phones and custom ROMS.
Some people may not agree with my stance, but I just think you give people another chance for slip ups like that one and not just a boot with no questions asked.
The problem is NOT just using other people work with/without permission...
The problem is cheating the users to get more donations:
Example:
-DevA: Oh, i've been 3 nights compiling the code for you all!!!!
-Users: Ohhh, thankyou, gonna donate for your hard work!!!
-DevA: Ok, here you have the link (and the download is from DevB work with a little text-editor touch-up).
That's not the way of doing things (imho)
sorry but no. the proper way is
devA: "i took all of jubeh's work and 'optimized a text file' and uploaded it, pretty awesome right?"
you: "cool story bro"
devA: "i need a new phone"
you: "im poor but wth if you keep not making your own work and ask for donations"
devA: "ya rly"
you: "maybe i should've donated to the guy that made this all and not the one that file pushed the wifi files over... =("
wow lets have some proof of this please and i quote "Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick" we know cyan does but prove king does if not take the statement out
If King put in the same amount of effort HazzBazz put in to creating this thread/writing that ever so long first post, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But really, did we need another thread on this topic ? I lost track but theres been atleast 10+ threads discussing this and all resulting in a lock/user under investigation.
See guys no one from cm contributors told anyone bout banning kk but yes every one was angry that he never gave credit to anyone. We told him a hundred time already to give credit. I don't know if bbannin does justice here but still he violated a lot of rules. He never released his kernel source. Never gave credits for others hard work. Bout drizzy he got banned for scamming a user. It's not winrar but winzip Get ur facts right. We r talking bout crediting the work of the community. If u do something spending day n night on expecting nothing but some respect or credit for ur work u get angry in ur language doing 1 month job n not getting paid. I would recommend u all try contributing before writing such justifications n flames n more. So kingklick was wrong n given many warnings before being banned. He was not a bad dev or something but as I told u reward for a contributor is credits. Bout donating I guess from tomorrow I'll start packaging cm froyo nightlys change the name of the Rom post it n start asking for donations. I'll even put some unicorns n ponies in it for u guys so it ismagical. N if u thing stuff can be fixed without the source u r wrong. For fixing 99% percent of stuff u need to know how to work with source n compile. Rest 1% are silver by pushing files. And again no one from cm asked any mod to ban him. It was their internal decision. There was no influence whatsoever
And one more thing. U all remember Eugene whom u all made run away from magic n dream. He even caught kingklick using his work by adding a coded name oc the Rom that clearly said Eugene n this made king cry. He started accepting he used Eugene work then more proofs came in of he just changing build.prop n posting as his
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
enatefox said:
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
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I lawl'd.
I don't have enough money for my family, but you can have some. Where's your donate link you hard worker?
tl;dr
enatefox said:
Hey guys seriously, i spent like all weekend making a site for you to help hax your phones. bandwidth is expensive, so please donate to me!!!!!!! if you like all the work i put into this. you can check my site out at: http://forum.xda-developers.com and if it helps you out, please buy my a nexus. thanks and i'm still here
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Damn man, that site is stupid fast
Im poor and living on the streets but i cant imagine how much work it must've been. Im donating to u
AnderWeb said:
The problem is NOT just using other people work with/without permission...
The problem is cheating the users to get more donations:
Example:
-DevA: Oh, i've been 3 nights compiling the code for you all!!!!
-Users: Ohhh, thankyou, gonna donate for your hard work!!!
-DevA: Ok, here you have the link (and the download is from DevB work with a little text-editor touch-up).
That's not the way of doing things (imho)
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Kingklick developed a fanbase. If they donated is that a crime? He didn't hold for ransom, he just released work without due credit, perhaps mostly someone else's work (havent seen evidence) and hey I put a paper out last term without my complete bibliography done because I was so excited to get it out and I was going away for a week...I finished it off over the break and put it out when I was back, funny that didn't start a war on the internet.
enatefox said:
sorry but no. the proper way is
devA: "i took all of jubeh's work and 'optimized a text file' and uploaded it, pretty awesome right?"
you: "cool story bro"
devA: "i need a new phone"
you: "im poor but wth if you keep not making your own work and ask for donations"
devA: "ya rly"
you: "maybe i should've donated to the guy that made this all and not the one that file pushed the wifi files over... =("
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I like how you're not using any form of personal attack in discussing this issue...give me an example of when kingklick asked asked for donations...theyre just appreciated. And hell did Jubreh give credit to ALL the people who helped him...Linus Torvalds etc? No, so we are all in part imperfect for not giving 'full credit'...call me anal or not.
Daneshm90 said:
If King put in the same amount of effort HazzBazz put in to creating this thread/writing that ever so long first post, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But really, did we need another thread on this topic ? I lost track but theres been atleast 10+ threads discussing this and all resulting in a lock/user under investigation.
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None of them were philosophical...Ive just finished my second year on joint honours in Philosophy so I find it interesting...and it's not exactly an effort to pile out this when I did it all through term time anyway.
charnsingh_online said:
It's not winrar but winzip Get ur facts right.
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LOL I guess that makes me an invalid...nice
charnsingh_online said:
We r talking bout crediting the work of the community. If u do something spending day n night on expecting nothing but some respect or credit for ur work u get angry in ur language doing 1 month job n not getting paid.
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well uhhhh no its not because you expect to be paid for your job, and in fact you have legal rights ...open source developing is COMPLETELY different
charnsingh_online said:
I would recommend u all try contributing
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True yeah we should all try it...I'm hoping to do computer science post-grad if I get a first...but we dont all have the time or the expertise. I do some file pushing for myself, but I dont release it because if I did (despite getting my roms running fast and to my liking) I'd get slated by some snooty coders and fanboys.
charnsingh_online said:
before writing such justifications n flames n more.
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nb. see lack of flaming...
charnsingh_online said:
It was their internal decision. There was no influence whatsoever
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Try twitter.com and look at a lot of members of Cyanogenmob's (still sticking by that, will use that in non-derogatory circumstances, still revelling in the typo!) tweets.
And hey if kingklick can deliver to the end users then there's no use slagging him off...youre equally insulting anyone that thought his roms were good. His slide rom has so much positive feedback for instance.
JAguirre1231 said:
I lawl'd.
I don't have enough money for my family, but you can have some. Where's your donate link you hard worker?
tl;dr
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Daneshm90 said:
Damn man, that site is stupid fast
Im poor and living on the streets but i cant imagine how much work it must've been. Im donating to u
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Yay mock donators now too.
HazzBazz, since you're gonna be like this here goes:
We all know the kangers. They're everywhere from your local grocer to the bus driver. Yes, kangers live peacefully among us. What you didn't know is that the real issue, for me at least, is that when I had my old Windows phone w/Android ported on it, we would bust our asses off (look at the Vogue thread) and people would micro-manage or "release" our work as theirs. Basically we would bust our asses off for free (never have I ever asked for a donation nor have I received a single penny for my time) and these people would zip it up and host it on their own site and build a fan base.
Ok so what right? well the people that post in those threads then have bugs to report. who do they report them too? the guy that said he made the ROM-- not us. he says "lolz i don't know guys" then we fix it then he gets thanked. then, he gets the donation. it pisses me off and I never got paid. imagine the unemployed devs out there.
You can at least see my point, right?
F'sure. Hence why I dont release anything. But to you guys kangers are pests. I do not doubt that kangers should be policed. However the credit issue is something which is neglected at a small level by everyone, so no one is perfect...and the great thing about a big site like xda is that most kangers on other websites have tiny fanbases.
I respect your work because of its own credence, and plagiarism will sure as hell piss anyone off who puts time into things, but we must remember that these are donations, given freely. I think we should do more to inform the 'end users' than ban and drive away devs who deliver what some users want...albeit with some undue credit (inform..allow the end users to make informed decisions).
HazzBazz said:
Kingklick developed a fanbase. If they donated is that a crime? He didn't hold for ransom, he just released work without due credit, perhaps mostly someone else's work (havent seen evidence)
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I will stop you there as the rest of what you say is boring.
Oh and use the search button or cache on google to find(as you call it) evidence
Have a Nice Day
If you like my work, buy bill gates a stuffed penguin.
Love it yeah. Your logical, fair and anticipatory argument leaves me speechless.
'Rest of what you say is boring'...darn I'm upset and speechless...that hurts. It's like Primary school bullies here, only fails.
With regard to 'haven't seen evidence'...I wasn't saying kingklick did or did not do that or this...Im simply saying I (personally) havent seen the evidence (not because it doesn't exist or does exist), but ultimately Kingklick was found guilty of using someone else's work without saying please and thankyou, and was hence driven away from us.
I will be hated on, but I don't care. Bring the King back. I love his Desire Sense UI ROM's.
So, some of you may have received an email requesting you fill out a short survey for a chance to be included in the beta test for the upcoming AT&T Atrix firmware update. I implore you to read this message and at least consider it.
I write this as a request to the members of the XDA community to be respectful to Motorola. Frankly, I was absolutely embarrassed to be a member of this community with how many of you handled the last beta test. Posting confidential information, breaking the NDA, posting restricted tools on the Motorola forum itself? It doesn't matter what "morals" you decide you want to follow, take it somewhere else please. That kind of behavior does nothing but HINDER our cause. If I was Motorola, and I looked at how my end users reacted to something they agreed to uphold, I wouldn't want to give them anything further. Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ, but please:
Don't break NDA.
Don't post restricted files.
Don't yell and scream and swear at Motorola.
You do nothing but make us look like fools when you do these things.
This thread is not meant to open discussion. This thread is not meant to start a flame war. This thread is my personal request to the members of the XDA community as one of the few developers actually working on the platform right now: Please be civil, and please be mature.
Thank you.
-Ririal (aka Fenrir)
I see where you're coming from, but I reserve the right to yell and cuss at whomever I want. ;-)
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
Ririal said:
So, some of you may have received an email requesting you fill out a short survey for a chance to be included in the beta test for the upcoming AT&T Atrix firmware update. I implore you to read this message and at least consider it.
I write this as a request to the members of the XDA community to be respectful to Motorola. Frankly, I was absolutely embarrassed to be a member of this community with how many of you handled the last beta test. Posting confidential information, breaking the NDA, posting restricted tools on the Motorola forum itself? It doesn't matter what "morals" you decide you want to follow, take it somewhere else please. That kind of behavior does nothing but HINDER our cause. If I was Motorola, and I looked at how my end users reacted to something they agreed to uphold, I wouldn't want to give them anything further. Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ, but please:
Don't break NDA.
Don't post restricted files.
Don't yell and scream and swear at Motorola.
You do nothing but make us look like fools when you do these things.
This thread is not meant to open discussion. This thread is not meant to start a flame war. This thread is my personal request to the members of the XDA community as one of the few developers actually working on the platform right now: Please be civil, and please be mature.
Thank you.
-Ririal (aka Fenrir)
(p.s. to moderators, if you feel I'm out of line, you may remove this thread at any point.)
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Thanks so much for posting this... i felt the exact same way
+100 (to Ririal's OP, not the clown who posted right before me)
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
basically, dont bring xda into it.
mafiaboy01 said:
Well I'm not worried about moto doing anything to me, they'll come after me as fast as there getting the bootloader unlocked.
Bite me
Sent from Motorola Atrix on TELUS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its people like you that ruin the hard work others put into this and other issues we may have with companies. He didnt mention anything about them coming after one of us or any of us for that matter he simply asked us to not break NDA (something that is Legally speaking far more dangerous than you take for granted) and also to not make our community (that is to say the developer community) look like complete loser's. who would honestly want to help someone who is constantly screaming and cursing at them? I know i wouldn't and I say that from COMPLETE Experience seeing as thats EXACTLY what I do on a daily basis and I constantly make people do the harder work if they are yelling at me. so why not just get your head out of your butt and act a bit more mature about the OP and maybe be more respectful.
To the moderators,
I apologize as I know this is attacking a specific person and that is not usually something that is allowed. But people like this need to realize just the potential they hold for possibly taking down something as great as these forums. If you feel that you need to remove my post please do so, but I ask that in this case you may let me know so that I realize just how strict on these rules you may be.
caderon said:
Its people like you that ruin the hard work others put into this and other issues we may have with companies. He didnt mention anything about them coming after one of us or any of us for that matter he simply asked us to not break NDA (something that is Legally speaking far more dangerous than you take for granted) and also to not make our community (that is to say the developer community) look like complete loser's. who would honestly want to help someone who is constantly screaming and cursing at them? I know i wouldn't and I say that from COMPLETE Experience seeing as thats EXACTLY what I do on a daily basis and I constantly make people do the harder work if they are yelling at me. so why not just get your head out of your butt and act a bit more mature about the OP and maybe be more respectful.
To the moderators,
I apologize as I know this is attacking a specific person and that is not usually something that is allowed. But people like this need to realize just the potential they hold for possibly taking down something as great as these forums. If you feel that you need to remove my post please do so, but I ask that in this case you may let me know so that I realize just how strict on these rules you may be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Happy ?
Sent from Motorola Atrix on TELUS.
+1 fully agree with OP. Posting elements of the update will get poster in trouble and could get XDA in trouble. Also behave like a civilized person yelling and screaming as a child got you nothing and it'll do nothing now... just my 2 cents
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
decoyd said:
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're not understanding what he's saying.
He's telling people who sign up for Moto's beta test, to actually follow the NDA (non-disclosure agreement), and not post the update.zip files that we are supplied as beta testers. It is against the agreement we make with Moto when we sign up and accept the beta test update. That has NOTHING to do with rooting your phone or modifying your files on your phone.
Example: I get the update, immediately pull the .zip off my internal SD card and throw it on Megaupload and post the link for everyone to have.
Doing that basically tells Motorola "F you and your beta testing", and shows that we have no intentions of working with them. All that will do is stop them from trying to work with us (and even if you don't think they are because they're not giving us the golden keys to their phone, they are still trying to work with us as a consumer in the fullest capacity they can as a commercial company).
We can have the situation where we get zero testing to updates until they're released, or even worse ZERO updates because Motorola no longer feels the consumer has any desire to work with them, or we can have a synergistic relationship going to the extent that both parties can get at least some part of their way.
Having them unlock the bootloader for us is honestly IMO never going to happen. NO phone company is doing this, so it's silly to think they will or that we deserve it. Devs are the ones who unlock or bypass bootloaders and all our Android phones; devs will find a way, a 3rd party will find a way, but Motorola has zero interest in doing that for us and to think otherwise is foolish. So what they DO give us, may help other people to figure it out and crack it themselves. But we need things to work both ways, with Moto giving a little room for us to update our software and continue on with Android's progress.
To correct some misunderstandings: You have the right to jailbreak your device, but you do not have the right to posses or share someones intellectual property without permission, or break NDA.
Agree and disagree with op. Agree because we should not be breaking such an agreement. Disagree because such an agreement should not exist in the first place.
Sent from my Atrix using XDA Premium App.
dLo GSR said:
It is against the agreement we make with Moto when we sign up and accept the beta test update. That has NOTHING to do with rooting your phone or modifying your files on your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(1) You violate (or at least I do) agreements with Motorola all the time. Why is this time different?
(2) This has EVERYTHING to do with root. The whole reason people do this is to keep phones unlocked/rooted.
dLo GSR said:
Doing that basically tells Motorola "F you and your beta testing", and shows that we have no intentions of working with them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(3) False. If we were given a way to obtain root or have an unlocked bootloader through official channels, you can make this argument. As the situation is quite the opposite, I don't see how this is a valid conclusion.
dLo GSR said:
All that will do is stop them from trying to work with us
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(4) I'm honestly baffled by this statement.
Saying that these activities is going to push Motorola to provide "ZERO" updates is ludicrous. Could it encourage them to not offer betas before release? Maybe, but I doubt it. They need feedback.
In the end, I just reiterate: Why draw the line at posting files from betas? SBFs are posted all the time. We violate our agreements all the time, so what's so different this time?
knigitz said:
To correct some misunderstandings: You have the right to jailbreak your device, but you do not have the right to posses or share someones intellectual property without permission, or break NDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
False. The point is that jailbreaking is legal, and if you read the LoC ruling I posted, you'll see that the related activities of distributing their software (e.g. sbf's) is NOT a violation of their IP. Just like using clips from a copyrighted movie in a documentary without permission is not a violation of copyright. NDAs are no different than the EULAs which are violated left and right. What's the big difference between everyone happily violating their user agreements with Motorola and AT&T but somehow the NDA is now sacrosanct.
Added links: http://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/2006_statement.html and http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.html
I'd tend to agree with the OP ..
Stuff will leak, and the fact is we're all looking to get the next new thing / enhancement, but we should all demonstrate a little discretion if not for any other reason than to be practical ... The more blatant (some of the stuff on the mot forum bordered on ridiculous) the more likely the vendors will shift even more effort and resources to locking things down.
All imho, which when I last checked we're all entitled to
decoyd said:
(1) You violate (or at least I do) agreements with Motorola all the time. Why is this time different?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because this one isn't an implicit I-opened-the-product-box, you signed up as a beta tester, which is not a given privilege as a consumer. This is an OPT-IN test opportunity. Probably 98% of the people with the Atrix do not participate in this beta test. Like you said, we're allowed to root/jailbreak our phones technically because of the LoC ruling. That does not make you immune to breaking an NDA. Don't be ignorant. I have seen people sued and prosecuted for breaking NDAs, especially in my line of work.
I got the beta update, and I tried it, gave my feedback, and went back to 1.2.6. When someone figured out how to do root and they released the update ALL OF FIVE DAYS LATER, I updated. I do not believe that releasing the update to the masses in any way helped to re-gain root access for 4.1.57.
decoyd said:
(2) This has EVERYTHING to do with root. The whole reason people do this is to keep phones unlocked/rooted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While that may be true, and rooting in itself is not wrong, the process to get it by releasing a company's IP is. Geohot lost on this one with Sony. If you want the damn beta update so bad, then SIGN UP FOR IT. If you're so committed to finding root and unlocking our bootloader, THEN PARTICIPIATE in the beta. None of that requires you to break the NDA.
decoyd said:
(3) False. If we were given a way to obtain root or have an unlocked bootloader through official channels, you can make this argument. As the situation is quite the opposite, I don't see how this is a valid conclusion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right. Biting the hand that feeds you is a way better solution to getting what you want.
decoyd said:
(4) I'm honestly baffled by this statement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What, you don't understand common logic?
decoyd said:
Saying that these activities is going to push Motorola to provide "ZERO" updates is ludicrous. Could it encourage them to not offer betas before release? Maybe, but I doubt it. They need feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They don't need feedback from us. They can easily throw together a small focus group or do in-house testing or carrier testing that doesn't include us. Most companies work that way. We were fortunate to have Moto decide to include the general public.
decoyd said:
In the end, I just reiterate: Why draw the line at posting files from betas? SBFs are posted all the time. We violate our agreements all the time, so what's so different this time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're opting in for this test. If you can't handle the rules and regulations, then don't do it and just wait and whine until the actual update is released. I can't remember anyone complaining of signing up for the Beta and not getting in, so if you want the damn file, then sign up and get to work.
And thank you for ignoring about 50% of my post.
decoyd said:
I have to laugh a little at this post. While I think the post has the best of intentions, this entire community is in the "business" of violating user agreements --the development sub-forum, in particular. Now, before you say that by rooting devices, you are only voiding your warranty, Motorola (Apple, Samsung, or just about any other vendor) would claim that XDA is violating their intellectual property. This is why people receive the C&D letters when sbf's and the like are posted.
Fortunately, the Library of Congress has explicitly ruled that these activities essentially fall under the fair use clauses of copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2010/75fr43825.pdf). While this has yet to be thoroughly tested in the courts, as long as xda's activities remain non-commercial, Motorola would likely lose a legal battle trying to close down such activities. So, their only substantial alternative is to void your warranty.
I think comments like "Play by the rules. You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like them, you're free to protest, but do so within the CURRENT rules and laws. File a complaint, write a petition, picket outside Motorola's HQ" are a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Why can't you make those exact arguments when it comes to rooting your device?
These activities are legal, you are only voiding the contract you made with Motorola when you post items covered under an NDA. This is not illegal. This group of developers dedicates itself to violating contracts with Motorola and AT&T left and right. Why does this especially cross a line?
I do agree that people don't need to get nasty and go off on rants, but don't confuse rooting and related activities with something illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I have to laugh at how you didn't even read what the post was about.
This is about the beta test, nothing more, nothing less. The entirety of the test is enclosed under an NDA, which regardless of your personal or moral standards, is a legally binding contract and should not be broken. Last time there was a beta test, users willingly and knowingly broke the NDA and posted the confidential information all over the forums. Most of those threads were shut down immediately. When I root my device, I'm not breaking a signed agreement that says I won't root my device. It's not even close to the same thing, you're overgeneralizing the subject. I'm talking about a very specific thing here, not android hacking in general.
Also, an NDA is a legally binding contract, and it IS illegal to break. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement
dLo GSR said:
Having them unlock the bootloader for us is honestly IMO never going to happen. NO phone company is doing this, so it's silly to think they will or that we deserve it. Devs are the ones who unlock or bypass bootloaders and all our Android phones; devs will find a way, a 3rd party will find a way, but Motorola has zero interest in doing that for us and to think otherwise is foolish. So what they DO give us, may help other people to figure it out and crack it themselves. But we need things to work both ways, with Moto giving a little room for us to update our software and continue on with Android's progress.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then why is HTC so responsive to 3rd party devs? (Excluding Thunderbolt, wtf is with that) I have Cognition on my Captivate, and CM7 on my Inspire. So forgive me if I decide to disagree with you that it's not silly to want an unlocked bootloader.
Especially on my captivate. The thing is complete crap without Cognition. Yet I was able to easily install ROM manager and Cognition and slap it on there. It's only Motorola right now that are big enough pricks to do this to us. Sony gave their users a way to install ROMs. Now it's only us locked in the cage.
dLo GSR said:
If you can't handle the rules and regulations, then don't do it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do you justify rooting your phone? You are violating their rules and regulations. Nobody is forcing you to buy their product.
NDA's are pretty serious business. Just because Motorola doesn't sue you doesn't change this fact. Lifetime friends of mine that work at Microsoft and Google can't tell me what they are working on specifically. I've gotten used to responses like "working on Google Maps" and not bothering them for more details because I respect their NDAs.
Ririal said:
And I have to laugh at how you didn't even read what the post was about.
This is about the beta test, nothing more, nothing less. The entirety of the test is enclosed under an NDA, which regardless of your personal or moral standards, is a legally binding contract and should not be broken. Last time there was a beta test, users willingly and knowingly broke the NDA and posted the confidential information all over the forums. Most of those threads were shut down immediately. When I root my device, I'm not breaking a signed agreement that says I won't root my device. It's not even close to the same thing, you're overgeneralizing the subject. I'm talking about a very specific thing here, not android hacking in general.
Also, an NDA is a legally binding contract, and it IS illegal to break. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi.
I'm going to join the Daily Income Network (DIN). Before moderators decide to close this, I am NOT referring anyone. In fact, I'm letting a person refer me. Call DIN a scam or not, I don't care. I'm going to join it anyway to give it a test run. So, the first person who gives me a working referral link will be the person who will have it accepted by me. Take advantage of this offer quick.
Also, I have a question. Is it OK to ask people to join with your referral link in the OT section if you've got a good cause for doing so. For example, I'm a student, and I might be saving to get a better rig (I'm planning to do some source building and stuff in the future, but my computer isn't that powerful). Or would you have to consult a mod first? And if so, which mod?
So, anyway; give me your referral link quick!!!!!!
This is probably something that no-one else will do on this forum!!!!!!!!!
What are you still reading this for????!!?!?!?!
:laugh:
I'm just gonna leave this here...
And this
To make it worse - you are in the UK, even if this 'business' is technically based in the US. I think you will find that participating in this scheme opens you to prosecution under British law - so be very, very careful
Curse the origin of fish and chips. Well, I'm calling it off.
Don't bother giving me a link.
I ain't 'Merican.
Quite clearly this isn't going to happen - even the OP agrees.
If you want to get involved in such "opportunities" then please do it elsewhere.
Thread closed.
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
koftheworld said:
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
I didn't even read the article that you linked, however, I'd like to remind you that no one is forcing you to purchase anything? This is true with anything and everything. That's the problem with today's society, instant gratification and on the flip-side, a person's perceived right of entitlement. I say this all the time, if you don't like something, vote with your wallet. That goes for anything. I can't stand the fact that athletes and team owners make the amount of money they do, so I no longer pay to go to an event. I no longer pay to purchase swag, etc. I vote with my wallet.
Same here. If people have an issue with being charged for (I can't even call it root access), then don't buy it. It's really that simple.
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course I read the post. This is not the golden age of android hacking anymore. Everyone is looking to monetize due to the complexity of actually getting root/bootloader unlock as compared to how the OS was in the beginning. The community, the phones, and the OS were much different in the beginning. At this point in time, I think people who don't have these skills and willingly purchased locked down devices should have their wallets open if they want anything. Maybe with the next big OS we'll see a return to "hacker ethics", but now it's about getting paid for you think your work is worth.
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
Akrifay said:
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand where you are coming from. There are still those that do imbibe those ideals, but most of them have disappeared into nexus land or have taken jobs outside of XDA (like Hash).
Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had never thought/considered that, but it makes sense.
orangechoochoo said:
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have contributed to many a Dev over the years... I am not a Dev per say ... But i believe i am a Hacker by the true definition ... just happens not to be Android Software that i hack. It is amazing work that they do and i am very appreciative for it. But leave it up to the individual to "donate" ... I dont know guess im just an old schooler in a new schooler world lol
Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
Symbiontsoul said:
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yay im getting through! lol
I forgot about the bounty. Did the guy get it? If so, then I it's odd that he is asking for additional payment too.
Edit- I see that the root bounty thread was closed be cause the rooter is requiring $20 payment t instead.
wow, XDA sure has changed over the years.
Akrifay said:
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I am to agree with you, I would like to see your free hack/exploit contribution to the community.
You aren't paying for a root method. The root method is explained. You're paying for the product that does it for you.
Akrifay said:
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
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Well, look at it this way. By the definition you posted, in that information should be free, maiko1 had no further responsibility to the community than to make a post and say "Hey, i found XYZ exploit. Do with it what you will." He did not have to say how that exploit specifically would allow us to gain root access, let alone make a tool that did it for us. All he had to do was publish the information. Then he would have been an "ethical hacker" according to your definition. Now, seeing as how in the post above the one i quoted, you stated you are not an Android developer, even if you had this information available for free, what would you do with it? By your own admittance you wouldnt be able to achieve root with just the information, you still needed a tool to do it for you. Someone has to develop this tool. There are no ethics for "ethical development" and certainly no expectation that it should be free. Developers work for money. Don't confuse hacking with developing. Hacking is finding exploits. Developing tools to take advantage of them is a whole other story.
Also, just to kill the whole "the hack should be free" argument :
As Stallman notes, "free" refers to unrestricted access; it does not refer to price.
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From the article you linked. You have access to the method and tool, he didnt root his own phone and keep it from the rest of us. Doesnt mean you shouldnt pay for it.
I can't speak for those behind the root "hack", but I know I don't work for free.
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
adrynalyne said:
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
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Furthermore, your skills aren't worthless either, so why should they be free?