Related
I have seen a few references to ebay on this and other media.
The basic idea behind ebay is great and it started off brilliantly with people selling used or unwanted stuff to other people looking for exactly that stuff.
In the meantime most of the stuff you find on ebay is cheap crap made in China (not everything made in China in bad!, but most crap is made in China) I think.
Like cigarettes, all advertising for ebay should contain a warning: Buying here might be harm your purse.
Sorry if I sound a bit cynical but fact is that ebay is trmendeously successful and people get carried away. I use ebay myself occasionally but I would never ever (again) by a phone or accessory on ebay.
This is all my humble opinion. I do try support serious online shops that sell good products and good service at a competitive price. My advice here: Always see to it that the online shop you buy from provides full contact details on their website: postal address and a valid phone and fax number. There are too many shops out there with no physical address at all which to me is quite dubious.
Cheers
I've been purchasing a quite a few things off eBay, mostly UK sellers, and all of the product I've got are brilliant. If you were to think China products are mostly crap, you can well steer away from it (i.e. most of the China sellers have a word 'China' on the item location).
Anyway, I have bought a powered USB hub from China (via eBay) for GBP5 (include P&P). For the same product, if you were to get it from here in UK, it will cost you at least GBP15+. And yes, my USB hub is still here and I'm using it.
And, yeah, I've got myself a 512 Kingston SD from China, for GBP5 cheaper than of UK sellers.
Anyway, with most people saying that China will be an "economy threat" to others, I'm sure there are some reason to that (i.e. you can't be a threat by manufacturing craps). You might want to reconsider your point of view.
Anyway, I've got my Charmer off eBay for GBP150, that is more than 50% off as compared I were to get it (without contract) off local/web stores.
I have saved tons of money from getting stuff from Ebay, which includes my K-Jam.
I've bought a lot of stuff from ebay.
However, selling stuff on ebay, obviously be extremely careful about your purchaser and receive positive indication of payment before posting.
Buying: well, you take your chances of course. I've had bargains on some small electricals (eg USB hubs etc), but if you're paying that kind of money, be prepared for crap quality, and then hope you'll be pleasantly suprised.
I've had my fair share of scammers and non paying auction winners. I think your level of caution should grow the more expensive the item, of course. A lot of guys will try to scam you out of a phone, or into a stolen one (or one without a touch screen :wink
V
I've managed to find original XDA accessories (Keyboard for £16 and Extended Battery for £11!!!!!!!) selling stupidly cheap (would cost 5x more in the shops) and both work great!
Regards,
Neil.
I think there's some golden rules with eBay...
Take everything you see on there with at least a pinch of salt.
Remember, some fraudsters will get others to post fake good feedback, I've seen this in the past and although it's hard, it's possible.
Also make sure you can pay via a scheme which offers Buyer protection - the standard eBay buyer protection is VERY inadequate, and it's really hard to get your money back (and they charge a fee for the service too). If you have a credit card, usually if you have a problem you can speak to your credit card company directly and they will protect you from fraud by charging back the transaction (as far as I know, all UK credit card companies offer free fraud protection these days, so if you are defrauded out of your money they'll give it straight back and get in touch with the transaction processing company themselves to resolve the situation).
Avoid paying by cheque/cash/postal order wherever possible, you're just asking to be taken for a ride like that. Also, third party escrow companies not run or approved by eBay you should steer VERY clear of, I have seen people defrauded by fake escrow agencies. Anybody who pays with cash is just asking to be mugged.
Read the item description VERY carefully - I'm amazed how many people complain that they've received something they didn't want, or people who put negative feedback on items after they bought something which was actually broken (and said so in the description)... They have only themselves to blame. Scour the eBay description every time, and don't be afraid to ask the seller further questions or request pictures / more information if you feel you need it to be confident enough to make the bid.
Everyone with an ounce of common sense will already realise this, I hope.
Thanks for the tips guys.
Always remember " if it sounds too good to be true, it will be !!! "
Just sold my magician on eBay at the second attempt. I've bought quite a lot on eBay, even from Hong Kong and everything's been fine and dandy.
As a seller I'm a bit of a newbie and some nigerian tried to scam me out of my magician. He registered that very day claiming to be an american on business in Nigeria. He even went so far as sending me a fake PayPal confirmation.
I smelled a rat straight away when he said he wanted it posted to nigeria but gave him a chance given that there was a 0.0000001% chance he might have been genuine. When the fake PayPal came through though that was it. I reported him to eBay, PayPal, the owner of the domain he was using to (try to) scam me and then re-listed. He was thrown off eBay in short thrift and I soon had another (genuine this time) buyer.
If selling, you can specify that bidders MUST have a PayPal account and with "But It Now" you can specify immediate PayPay payment. Make sure you do and you really should be OK.
I have my money and the magician is in the post.
Everybody is happy.
P.S. Why do 99% of the world's internet scammers come from Nigeria?
There's a culture, particularly in Nigeria, that scamming people from richer countries is almost entirely acceptable, as the scammers prey on the gullibility and greed of the rich people who usually fall for the scams (the promise of millions with a much smaller payment, what stupid rich person could turn that down?) - some people make a living exclusively from scamming Europeans and Americans (they call their targets 'mugus', singular mugu)... The most prevalent scam is the Advance Fee Fraud - the 419 scam (so called due to the number of the Nigerian law which makes it technically illegal... The thing is, these laws are rarely enforced, and corruption itself is widespread throughout the police force and government).
Of course, this is just how I interpret it, but you'll find others who share a similar point of view. Just googling for Nigerian scam 419 culture brings up some interesting results, including http://slashdot.org/articles/05/10/21/138243.shtml and http://www.pambazuka.org/en/category/blog/31063 ... Read those and browse for some more, very interesting, discussions on the subject.
Read this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3887493.stm on the BBC web site. It's very funny. :lol:
It's about a hobby called Scam Baiting - which is basically stringing the 419 scammers along, getting them to do rediculous things and sometimes conning THEM out of money in the process.
If you want to get in on scam baiting go to http://www.419eater.com
Edit: Funny you should mention police corruption - this is the address he wanted me to send it to:
Name : Eke James
Address : block (d) highway patrol barracks flat 17 :shock:
City : Ikeja
State : Lagos
Country : Nigeria
Zipcode : 23401
TheBrit: that's some funny sh*t!! :lol: "Church of the Painted Breast" LMAO
Sometimes I'm not even sure if the scammers know what they're talking about: one time I received a request to end the auction early with an instant payment of something like £300 for this xda iis with a broken screen, and that I must send it to this guy's cousin a.s.a.p. cos it was his birthday! :lol:
Oh guys if you haven't seen it already, check out http://www.amirtofangsazan.blogspot.com/ - don't sell a faulty laptop and leave your data on the hard disk! This has been making news around the world, over 2 million hits now and a Wikipedia article hahaha!
Neil.
OMFG - the fun never stops!!! I'm laughing so hard that I can't even go to bed... :lol:
It's a shame that the guy's been kicked off ebay now: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI..../search.dll?from=R40&satitle=6825578528&fvi=1
Hardly, he's exactly the kind of person that I don't want to see on ebay. I love all the newspaper coverage this story's been getting
What I mean is that guy is probably using ebay under a different name now, so it's hard for us to track him down, unless he forgets to wipe his hard disk again!
I have bought heaps of great things on eBay and I find it great but you should always be careful of things that seems to good to be true.
I made this thread because I'm pretty sure other threads are made of this topic but I wanted to create a newer one since all these new products are coming out.
I would choose Apple because:
1)Selling over priced, under powered (for the price) computers that have no customization (well barely and I mean like building your own)
2) Changing the animal on their OS, add a .1, add features that can come in an update, and calling it a whole new OS.
3) Selling the iPhone and making the iPad (the iPod touch seems like the only good Apple Product). They don't know what the term "smart" phone means. I mean no multi tasking, boring, un-creative UI. The features in the iPhone/iPad may have been ground breaking 7 years ago but not today.
4) How it makes the fanboyz/fangirlz go crazy about the product because they hypnotized them about how they are good and the other companies are evil. The fanboyz/fangirlz are mad because they spent a lot of cash on an over priced piece of doo-doop) and they have to unleash their anger on past mistakes of another company while forgetting about the new features in the product today.
I like only one thing of apple products and mostly their software for computers: They have pretty good video editing software and that is pretty much it.
Unleash your inner fanboy/fangirl and just rant.
Apple has done a lot for the world though, with the ipod influencing other MP3 players, as well as showing that the linux based operating system can be used in mainstream media. I'd go more with AT&T and verizon mostly because of the monopolies that they have on the cell phone market right now. I'd rather have no contract phones which allow a pay per use plan. Either that or Walmart because of their screwing consumers.
All the oil/petroleum companys!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AndroidNoobie said:
I made this thread because I'm pretty sure other threads are made of this topic but I wanted to create a newer one since all these new products are coming out.
I would choose Apple because:
1)Selling over priced, under powered (for the price) computers that have no customization (well barely and I mean like building your own)
2) Changing the animal on their OS, add a .1, add features that can come in an update, and calling it a whole new OS.
3) Selling the iPhone and making the iPad (the iPod touch seems like the only good Apple Product). They don't know what the term "smart" phone means. I mean no multi tasking, boring, un-creative UI. The features in the iPhone/iPad may have been ground breaking 7 years ago but not today.
4) How it makes the fanboyz/fangirlz go crazy about the product because they hypnotized them about how they are good and the other companies are evil. The fanboyz/fangirlz are mad because they spent a lot of cash on an over priced piece of doo-doop) and they have to unleash their anger on past mistakes of another company while forgetting about the new features in the product today.
I like only one thing of apple products and mostly their software for computers: They have pretty good video editing software and that is pretty much it.
Unleash your inner fanboy/fangirl and just rant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you completely. Don't forget Quicktime (terrible UI and runs background services), iTunes (way to lock up music, Apple), iPods (same dial, same disk space, half the price elsewhere), and the iPod touch (what's the purpose or purchasing a stand-alone portable media wifi device again? that must come in real handy on the beach, in clubs, bars, and everywhere else wifi doesn't exist).
Also, who can really respect a company that basically releases dumbed-down technology basically saying that their customers are slow and stupid and lack self-respect when it comes to not being able to customize their portable devices? Notice how in the Windows Phone 7 Series walk-through found on MSDN today, the president/manager of the project said, "If you buy the phone we are going to let you customize it."
Also, special mention for Verizon, who really has worked hard to rip off the average consumer.
verizon. worst company ever.
AT$T has to go. This is undoutedly the worst company in the world. They have their heads so far up Apple's ass they should be called Apple T$T.
They simply do not care that people hate them, they have no new phones, except updated Tilts and Diamonds. They have the absolute worst customer service
http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/...sumer-reports-best-cell-phone-service-survey/
Latest example: My wife and I split ( no big deal , long time coming ) she decided that she wanted to take the iPhone that I bought her and the Propel that I bought her son, both of which I had put on my account, and get her own acount with AT$T. Without any notice to me, AT$T allowed her to take the phones and signed her up to two new two year contracts, and as I only found out yesterday, charged me with $300 dollars in early termination fees. When I challenged them on this, they said that I can always continue to pay for the numbers until the contract runs out. I asked them , since they allowed her to take the phone off of my account, why don't they just terminate the contract.
They informed me that the contract was for the numbers not the handsets. And that who ever was using the handsets, was out of their control. They further said that the contracts are meant to offset the subsidizing of the phones. I clearly pointed out that holding me to the balance of the original contract for the phones and then signing them up to two new two year contracts for the same two phones, was " double dipping " and that any reasonable customer service rep who wanted to keep a 7 year customer with four phones on AT$T would see that by cancelling the two contracts, AT$T was not losing any money and had infact guaranteed themselves more money by signing the ex and her son to two new 2 year contracts.
At which point they continued their mantra " the contract was for the phone numbers, not the phones themselves. " At which point, I cancelled the two phones that I had that were out of contract. Put the ex and her son's # on suspended service for $9.99 a month until the contract expires. And now must make a decision on what to do with my iPhone in July when that contract runs out. In the last seven years, I have paid AT$T $ 10,000- $14,000 in connection fees, and some dope in their customer service dept is forcing me to go elsewhere over $300 in early termination fees that are being paid for by " double dipping " in another account. Stupidity like this has got to go.
Where would this company be if Steve Jobs decides to yank there heads out of his butt ?
Oh Yeah, iPhone, Mac Book, iPod touch, 2 iMacs, U2 iPod classic = Apple Fanboy here.
Everybody hates the people who " get it "
Rogers Wireless, which used to be Rogers AT&T. We're seeing a pattern here
Probably AT&T. AT&T has terrible service nearly everywhere, crappy customer service (moreso than most telcos), and poor overall selection of devices.
Ever since the iPhone was introduced, AT&T has basically given up on maintaining their network at a usable level. The worst is when you call their terrible customer service only to be greeted by a voice announcing that they are "home of the iPhone" before you actually get help. I don't hate the iPhone, I have a few of them in fact, but I hate how AT&T having exclusivity over the iPhone has led to them ignoring all other aspects of their company.
They've almost forgotten about Windows Mobile and have completely ignored Android and WebOS devices, instead opting for more feature phones, because we all need more $20 Nokias and Samsungs. AT&T stopped trying once they got exclusivity of the iPhone, figuring that they wouldn't have to actually get business by being good at what they do, but rather by forcing people into switching in order to get their desired device.
If you don't believe me about the terrible customer service, I have a story for you. For Christmas of 2009, my mother and sister wanted iPhone 3GSes to replace their aging original iPhones. My father I waited to go to the AT&T store until the night before, because one of the incompetent CS representatives we talked to over the phone said that the original iPhones would deactivate, and we didn't want them deactivated for very long, should they need their phones. However, this was untrue, meaning we had to wait in long lines on Christmas Eve when we could have bought the iPhones months ago with no negative effects
After we finally got served by a representative, we were told that the bill we had mailed out almost two weeks ago still hadn't been processed yet, and in order to pay the lower upgrade price instead of the full retail price (~$500), we would have to pay the bill at the store, and have the check we mailed out be credited to our account. After we did that, the lady sold us the iPhones, which seemed fine. Except it wasn't fine, since she upgraded of the iPhones on my father's account, instead of my mother's which was a pain to deal with when we bought my father an iPhone a few weeks later. After we finally got the iPhones and drove home, we immediately got a call from the AT&T store, letting us know that the woman who sold us the iPhones had forgotten to put one of them back in the box after activating it, meaning we had to drive back again and pick up the phone which they forgot. The moral of this story is that AT&T is a horrible company, and a good portion of their customer service representatives are incapable of doing their jobs properly or giving correct information.
I actually have a few more AT&T stories to share, but I think I'd probably run past the 10,000 character post limit were I to share them all
AT&T...I left them a few years ago because of their ripoff plans, iphonia, no customer support, etc.
No point mentioning any as basically every coporation would be on my hit list
Fallen Spartan said:
No point mentioning any as basically every coporation would be on my hit list
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true! I listed one, but could have easily listed hundreds!
I'm not against corporations in general; I'd love to take money from consumers to better myself. But I do have a problem with every Apple idiot thinking Apple is doing great when really they are just taking advantage of people without their own identities and morons.
Yesterday's closing stock prices:
Microsoft>$28.63
RIM ( Blackberry )>$70.40
Nokia>$13.35
Motorola>$7.05
Palm>$9.31
HTC Corp.>$9.65
Apple>$201.47
Wow, sure must be a lot of us idiot, identity lacking , morons, getting taken advantage of by Apple.
Down with Tootsie Roll Industries, Inc.!
denco7 said:
Yesterday's closing stock prices:
Microsoft>$28.63
RIM ( Blackberry )>$70.40
Nokia>$13.35
Motorola>$7.05
Palm>$9.31
HTC Corp.>$9.65
Apple>$201.47
Wow, sure must be a lot of us idiot, identity lacking , morons, getting taken advantage of by Apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And don't forgot Google at $543!
galaxys said:
And don't forgot Google at $543!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lawlz. Apple got pwned. Google gets lot of money from gmail, gtalk, google maps, etc. Plus they put all that on their android phones too.
Apple
Check this out:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...nvironment-2009-9#15-archer-daniels-midland-1
flyboy
denco7 said:
Yesterday's closing stock prices:
Microsoft>$28.63
RIM ( Blackberry )>$70.40
Nokia>$13.35
Motorola>$7.05
Palm>$9.31
HTC Corp.>$9.65
Apple>$201.47
Wow, sure must be a lot of us idiot, identity lacking , morons, getting taken advantage of by Apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm hoping that this is sarcasm and that you realize that this is actually support against Apple's dominance. Stock prices for the most part are based on hype and a LACK of knowledge about a company. There's more idiots than smart people in the US, so a company like Apple should thrive. George W. Bush got elected twice. There are plenty of idiots around to think Apple is worth it.
A carpet die company somewhere in LA county. The XXXX told me to XXXX when I asked if they could sell me a smaller portion of carpet die for a smaller price.
Mod Edit: Foul language not acceptable, rules of XDA, juniors visit the site, warning given.
poetryrocksalot said:
A carpet die company somewhere in LA county. The XXXX told me to XXXX when I asked if they could sell me a smaller portion of carpet die for a smaller price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hahahahhahaa
What do you think? If Samsung is unable to repair the GPS via a future software update, would you just accept it, or would demand your money back?
I would demand my money back.
It's near useless for me as it is now.
Now I'm carrying two devices. My 3GS to continue using my TomTom, do my email, read my news. But I use the SGS for Internet on the go (at home I use my iPad). Hate carrying two devices having to make one a hotspot.
Here's a thought. Go ask your retailer. You are entitled to your money back if you aren't happy with the GPS. Have you even tried yet?
Sent from my wonderful GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
bushrat; said:
Here's a thought. Go ask your retailer. You are entitled to your money back if you aren't happy with the GPS. Have you even tried yet?
Sent from my wonderful GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I've tried. They want me to pay penalty for breaking the contract, and they would not accept the phone back. They would only replace it within 14 days with another new phone. After 14 days, they will only repair the phone, but not give me a new replacement. The Telco shop only acts as the middleman, and responsibility lies with Samsung to them.
Had I taken the $59 per month plan, then I could return it, no question asked within 7 days, and I only have to pay for any calls and data use. But I'm on the $49 per month plan because I wanted to commit myself to using Android by burning my own bridge. It's a mistake on hindsight. I didn't expect it to be so bad.
I feel that Samsung should work with the Telco to do exactly what Apple and ATT did, which is to allow people to back out of the contract without penalty, and have the phone returned. After all, this is a far far more seriously problem than in iPhone 4 in my mind at least.
The responsibility (under Australian law) is with the retailer, although they consult with a specialist (ie the manufacturer) to determine if there's a fault.
If the phone is faulty, and does not perform the task for which it was purchased you are entitled to a full refund of the purchase price.
www . accc . gov . au
Have faith that It will be fixed, since the phone is still in very early days.
I'm putting my trust in Samsung! Hopefully we won't get burned.
yea if you send it to the manufacturer they will 'try' to fix it, and its its hardware they obv cant anyway, then you just complain again once u get it back and im assuming they would have to give you your money back.
id just be patient and wait a few more weeks for samsung to release their firmware, or just use the JM2 which fixes it i think
Eaglesteve, surely you have consumer protection laws in Aus? The device is clearly not fit for purpose, therefore breaking the terms of your contract In the UK all major retailers will try to sell additional cover or insurance; although the consumer protection act makes them legally obligated to repair or replace electrical goods for up to 5 years after the date of purchase. My point; retailers rely heavily on consumer ignorance You didn't purchase the device directly from samsung, the store can't absolve responsibility by claiming to be a "middle man".. plus most sales assistants know jack **** about the legalities of your agreement.
Write a formal complaint to the retailers head office, send the letter via recorded delivery and state that you've been advised to provide a response period of 14 days before taking your complaint further. You don't want to look for a replacement, make it clear that it's a manufacturing fault and not specific to your device. There should be an AUS ombudsman that deals with consumer complaints (bit.ly/8Xl55G), find the correct governing body and lodge a formal complaint, they should provide a reference for your case; include it in the letter to the retailer. In the UK you would then be able to take your complaint to the small claims court, however most companies will **** bricks and fold before it reaches this stage. The bottom line is the device was sold to you for its GPS capabilities, the information provided by the retailer mislead you to into the agreement; you've signed up under false pretences, reason enough for the contract to be declared void
sensi_ said:
yea if you send it to the manufacturer they will 'try' to fix it, and its its hardware they obv cant anyway, then you just complain again once u get it back and im assuming they would have to give you your money back.
id just be patient and wait a few more weeks for samsung to release their firmware, or just use the JM2 which fixes it i think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im gonna flash to JM2 today, but Im getting a bit weary of the faith in Samsung.
Firstly, I'd point out that Samsung announced the phone in March. Three months perfecting the phone, and they still couldn't get the GPS sorted.
Another month later and with many firmware releases during that time, and still it doesn't look like its fixed. (though I haven't tried JM2 yet - in any event, the rumour is that it still doesn't fix onto more than 8 satellites despite seeing more, and it still doesn't lock onto anything with an SnR < 20)
Cya
Simon
yup, as far as samsung is concerned the device is already sold, they sell it on big bulks to retailers
it's the retailer duty to either give you the refund or not.
samsung will only accept RMA, or Warranty services
eaglesteve said:
I feel that Samsung should work with the Telco to do exactly what Apple and ATT did, which is to allow people to back out of the contract without penalty, and have the phone returned. After all, this is a far far more seriously problem than in iPhone 4 in my mind at least.
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Click to collapse
IIRC (it's been a while since I bought the original iPhone), this isn't something new due to antenna gate and it's just Apple's spin machine doing what they do well. Contracts in the US telecom industry, not just on AT&T, are written in a way that this review period exists.
The only difference here is that there is a slight difference in restocking fees, where they wont be applied like they have at times in the past. This isn't really "Apple working with AT&T" as much as touting a possibility that typically exists, there are certain exceptions by carrier but one reason why AT&T isn't combating this is the same reason they were hesitant to accept Android phones, and they ultimately gimp Android phones, Apple is just $$$$ to them. Once again AT&T beat their quarterly record for profitability and they are the most profitable carrier in the US even though they are #2 in customers. Needless to say, they are at the whims of Apple, but this isn't a big compromise on either's behalf.
Amazing. So far, 1/3 of people are happy to accept faulty goods.
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/07/18/samsung-captivate-now-available-from-att/
Some people here have returned it to AT&T, while I don't know it has been penalty free, I think you need to not put the onus on Samsung and need to have a better comparison in-mind.
sensi_ said:
yea if you send it to the manufacturer they will 'try' to fix it, and its its hardware they obv cant anyway, then you just complain again once u get it back and im assuming they would have to give you your money back.
id just be patient and wait a few more weeks for samsung to release their firmware, or just use the JM2 which fixes it i think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm waiting for my replacement now. If the GPS still doesn't work, I might do that. As for JM2, I don't believe it do anything based on whatever limited reading I did on some of those threads.
sjdean said:
Amazing. So far, 1/3 of people are happy to accept faulty goods.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess there's two main to three main things that could be at play here:
1) GPS isn't important to these people, therefore they are voting on their bias rather than from an objective viewpoint
2) GPS isn't a core functionality, therefore it's hard to say it justifies a return or that it is "faulty" as you put it
3) GPS is imprecise by nature, so users who have a strong need for it should be more informed about their purchase and the onus is on them to do their hw or lay in the bed they've made.
I am abstaining because I find the premise somewhat flawed, first of all. I think retailers and/or carriers are responsible, just like in other industries/product lines. If I buy a wireless router that doesn't perform well in, let's say it's wired performance I don't go direct to the manufacturer there. If I buy a camera that advertises 12MP but seems to produce ****ty results, I again, go to my retailer. In here, I also have a slight bias, originally being in the U.S. where we typically buy are phones through a carrier who give us a bit of extra protection because of the way contracts are set up they don't want to lose a customer totally (also part of the premise of the argument is based on a carrier logic that I don't think is applicable in this thread, but that might just be my opinion and I'm alone there).
So, I think the premise is flawed, and perhaps my logic is flawed, but I don't want to just vote "no" just because if either is flawed. However, I don't disagree with the "no" camp.
Lots of good advice from many of you. I'll have to talk to them if mynnext unit does not work. I hope it will work, since half the people polled claim that theirs are perfect.
If it does not work, I'll reason with Optus to get bout of the contract. I wonder how much of the $49 is for the phone and how much is for the data and calls. Should I simply withhold my payment, return the ozone, and pay them for actual calls and data used?
sjdean said:
Amazing. So far, 1/3 of people are happy to accept faulty goods.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah that's just the Samsung reps voting.
eaglesteve said:
Lots of good advice from many of you. I'll have to talk to them if mynnext unit does not work. I hope it will work, since half the people polled claim that theirs are perfect.
If it does not work, I'll reason with Optus to get bout of the contract. I wonder how much of the $49 is for the phone and how much is for the data and calls. Should I simply withhold my payment, return the ozone, and pay them for actual calls and data used?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Depends on how much you paid for the phone. 24 month contract? Tmo is selling their, slightly gimped model for $500 USD, I think that's on the high end of what they might get from international suppliers, depending on how big they are even though the international version is more costly.
So, ~500USD/24~20USD/month, maybe less, if fully subsidized. Forgive me for cutting corners and not looking into your location specifically, but I figure it's better than looking for the absolute cheapest UK/Euro/Thailand location.
There is no upfront cost for the phone. Just 24 months x $49. I had offered to continue with the plan but with an alternative phone and topping up the difference in monthly fee) but they refused that.
Hey all, found an interesting article which shows how much it costs to make a Galaxy Note 4. Based on production and RRP, It seems that the profit margin for Samsung seems to be similar or higher than that of Apple's overpriced iPhone 6+.
http://www.ibtimes.com/samsung-gala...ive-produce-iphone-6-teardown-reveals-1700769
So according to this article the iPhone 6+ base model costs $242 to make and sells for 859 dollars USD whilst the Galaxy note 4 costs $260 to make and sells for approx $800 USD
Now i know there is packaging, distrubution, R&D to take care of as well as retailer profit margins, but it is pretty save to say they are making a huge profit per device atleast from first time adopters, and so they should.
Edit: I am not complaining, just pointing out that it is not just Apple that makes them cheap and sells them at a high cost.
that article is rubbish, the research & development is free of cost, right? everybody knows that
entrarya said:
that article is rubbish, the research & development is free of cost, right? everybody knows that
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Did you even read the article?
americasteam said:
Did you even read the article?
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Or my post for that matter, which states that even with R&D costs the profit margin is quiet large. If they are aiming to sell a low amount of phones, let's say a million Note 4s, it would be reasonable to assume that 10$ a device would more than cover the 10 million dollar development cost which i just pulled out of my ass...why would it even cost 10 million USD to design a phone?
Also i presume when things are priced in the USA, they are priced excl VAT (or whatever the american equivelent is to british VAT), so yes there is 550USD worth of money to be made before R and D, packaging, distrubution and retailer profit margin.
In a competitive industry, the market drives the price not the cost of the item. If the cost is greater than the price the market is willing to pay the manufacturer may decide not to launch (unless they are still covering some fixed costs). If a consumer believes a device is earning an "excessive" profit they are free to find a phone that earns less profit. Or they can wait until the price drops. That is the beauty of the free market, the choice is yours.
And what about price od commercials, transport, and other?
Hey. If you want to build a comparable phone for cheaper for us, please feel free. At the end of the day, these companies produce a product that requires their capital and expertise to develop and build. We pay for the greater value and not for some equitable profit sharing with consumer equilibrium.
Unlike gaming consoles - Xbox 360/One Playstation 3/4 which sales their hardware at day one with loses that will be covered later on by the profit they'll make for games that they sell- in this industry sadly this is not the case and consumers are more then willing to pay double then a high end gaming console for the newest smartphone. Even though apps makes huge profits for the phone makers(let's say apple for example as they have their own phone and their own app store) they don't lower the costs as it's just extra earnings.
And you can definitely tell that the prices are way over priced when when companies such as Samsung, Apple and other big players in the phone market publish profits of BILLIONS a QUARTER.
hell, I'm not innocent as I buy these phones as well. But hopefully someday when the world will be floded with smartphones (including low markets/third world countries) and not only average to rich people will have them prices will drop.
tal123 said:
Unlike gaming consoles - Xbox 360/One Playstation 3/4 which sales their hardware at day one with loses that will be covered later on by the profit they'll make for games that they sell- in this industry sadly this is not the case and consumers are more then willing to pay double then a high end gaming console for the newest smartphone. Even though apps makes huge profits for the phone makers(let's say apple for example as they have their own phone and their own app store) they don't lower the costs as it's just extra earnings.
And you can definitely tell that the prices are way over priced when when companies such as Samsung, Apple and other big players in the phone market publish profits of BILLIONS a QUARTER.
hell, I'm not innocent as I buy these phones as well. But hopefully someday when the world will be floded with smartphones (including low markets/third world countries) and not only average to rich people will have them prices will drop.
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I would say that the only way Samsung will be making money is by making this rather healthy profit margin on the phone, now we know it is quiet a decent margin. Who actually uses the Samsung app store? so no onwards profit there. All profits from Google Play will go straight to Google, so Samsung have just one time to make their cash from most people.
Given samsung recent financial outlook I think they could use as much profit as they can get.
Price equilibrium.
captainbirdseye86 said:
I would say that the only way Samsung will be making money is by making this rather healthy profit margin on the phone, now we know it is quiet a decent margin. Who actually uses the Samsung app store? so no onwards profit there. All profits from Google Play will go straight to Google, so Samsung have just one time to make their cash from most people.
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I knew someone was going to jump and say that the funds are going to Google, and that's why I said that apps are billions worth of profits but just extra money(for Apple mostly and Google as well) however, a "healthy" profit it not a profit which they are making billions every quarter of it. That's insane. Most companies, even big ones, don't make those numbers in years, or ever for that matter.
They can cut the phones prices in half and still make great profits(that's what happens anyway when prices drop after a few months-so as you can see that's more than possible) but when a phone launches it has an insane price tag because these companies are based off making money and only money, and they have share holders to report to. They don't care about making a better phone, they only care about making money which results indirectly of us getting better phone bc that's the only way we will buy their product and not the competitioners.
Button line - they *can* lower the prices and make good profits, but they *won't* bc they want to make *more* money bc we are just willing to pay them those sums.
Welcome to capitalism.
For this logic, food in restaurant is also overprice. Even the burger in McDonald's is over price. Less than $2 of ingredients and they sell $5-$7.
WHERE THE HELL is the payment to staff and employees?
Look at ANY big companies balance sheet income statement and see how proportion of Administrative expense accounts for. Besides there are selling expense, and in production cost there are costs for factories and workers.
That's the aspect of Accounting, and in the aspect of Finance they have to take into account the interest (time value of money) on their investment,...
What the heck is materials cost? It's small in the cost structure of a company this type.
And if this is too complicated for you, this is more easier to understand. You guys think Samsung/Apple receive $500 for each of their phone? So if in one quarter SS sells 20mil flagship phones (Samsung easily can do), so the profit is $10 bill. However last quarter SS got the profit of over $4 bill. Where's nearly $6 bill? And need to say that the profit of Samsung also comes from middle to budget phones, tablets, TVs, semiconductors, display, fridge, washing machine,... So just for these 20mil flagship phones, if they sell at $250 lower price to "satisfy" some of you, they will lose $5 bill in revenue with (supposed to be) the same cost. And then they face loss. Basic maths.
i agree with hung remember samsung maintains factories too as well as build them (the latest one in development costs around 14 billion), of all the tech companies samsung outspends all of them. if they dont spend as much as others they can easily out-profit even apple every quarter (higher quarterly revenues) but like i said they build most of their parts thus they incur more costs too. i like to buy the notes simply because for the high price tag i truly believe that every year i have the best phone
hung2900 said:
For this logic, food in restaurant is also overprice. Even the burger in McDonald's is over price. Less than $2 of ingredients and they sell $5-$7.
WHERE THE HELL is the payment to staff and employees?
Look at ANY big companies balance sheet income statement and see how proportion of Administrative expense accounts for. Besides there are selling expense, and in production cost there are costs for factories and workers.
That's the aspect of Accounting, and in the aspect of Finance they have to take into account the interest (time value of money) on their investment,...
What the heck is materials cost? It's small in the cost structure of a company this type.
And if this is too complicated for you, this is more easier to understand. You guys think Samsung/Apple receive $500 for each of their phone? So if in one quarter SS sells 20mil flagship phones (Samsung easily can do), so the profit is $10 bill. However last quarter SS got the profit of over $4 bill. Where's nearly $6 bill? And need to say that the profit of Samsung also comes from middle to budget phones, tablets, TVs, semiconductors, display, fridge, washing machine,... So just for these 20mil flagship phones, if they sell at $250 lower price to "satisfy" some of you, they will lose $5 bill in revenue with (supposed to be) the same cost. And then they face loss. Basic maths.
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Thank you Hung, i am sure us mere simpletons on this forum much appreciate your valuable knowledge that you simplified just for us.
Please, teach us some more.
Not to mention the billion dollar bill in patent fees that Samsung calculated they owe Microsoft. Or their warranty and after sales support costs. The recognition engine for the handwriting features is licensed, royalties will be due. Codecs - not free. It all adds up, subtracting BoM from sales price is not how to calculate profit.
The OnePlus One can be so cheap because they mostly ignore the IP and support costs most non Chinese brand manufacturers pay.
- Research Cost
- Design cost
- Production Cost (material, labor and machineries plus Testing and QA/QC) - they dont do it in one shot. Based on test results, they might even go back as far as redesigning it and so on)
- Marketing cost (TV and print ads, Social Network, etc)
- Operating Cost - Samsung and any other companies have their core operating manpower. People doing the Human Resources, Accounting, Legal, Facility Maintenance, Warehousing/Inventory, Permits, etc. These groups are services groups and not profit center groups so they have to charge a portion of their operating expenses to each of those products to be sold.
There may be many more on top of that. Its not as simple as material and labor cost.
Good thing Samsung will be giving me back $200 with their phone trade in promotion.
What is all this argument about over priced note 4 and crapple fones?
lets get it straight, samdung's note series designs did not change much since day one. so no R&D costs there to recover.jus the hardware and other nuts and bolts. and TW,pfffff,it has been there since day 1,what else is new?????
What the consumers are actually paying for the is god damn knox counter and the equally obKNOXious app targeted at making sure the phone is secured/tampered free for enterprise users. other than alienating other dev, trying to be the king of douchebaggery, samdung is making damn sure to grab more money from consumers and making them pay for useless app (knox) which enterprise users shld pay.
as for crapple, they are known to sell overpriced everything since day one. money grabbing is not something new to crapple,its in their blood and every other else they do. consumers pay tons of dollars for their so called crapple environment and of course with each ios updates, they are making sure jailbreakers find it increasingly harder to get root access,thus ever raising in the game of douchebaggery.
you all can argue about overpriced this and that, end of the day, if you go buy their fone, you are jus validating their douchebaggery and making damn sure they trample on you when they deny your warranty when u root.
samdung is already fast becoming an overall king of douchebag, it will not be long before they catch up with crapple if consumers keep buying their knox infected fones.
I have used Samsung for a long time (including the Note 7 fiasco) and have many of their products in my house. I like using Samsung Pay, except it doesn't work on Apple Pay capable terminals in my area, but they have now gone too far. I'm done.
My rewards points were substantial. I was not aware they expired so I was just letting them roll. I tonight find out that they do expire and they have all been devalued at some time in February of this year I think. This devaluation has cost me $120+! There was no grandfathering or adjusting existing points with this unannounced and uninformed change. Further accumulating points has also been cut in half, basically.
If you take the time to dig you can find out about the expiring points on the Samsung Site, but you MUST dig. I was told by more than one Samsung Rep that they did NOT expire. If Samsung were a decent company it would appear in the FAQs. There is nothing anywhere about the devaluation of existing points, a $100 card went from 40,000 to 50,000 points or 20%!
They could have emailed notice of the redemption change, or prorated the old points, or grandfathered the redemption rate on old points, but nope. Nothing. Nada. Basically, we are taking back some of that money we promised you when you bought our product, too bad. I'm done with their big company bullying.
Does this break the bank? Of course not. It is the principle. There is too much decent competition out there and I'll live without Samsung Pay. By the time I buy another phone the world around here may have caught up and it will not be "special" anyway.
So if you have Samsung Rewards points, sorry about your luck.
Well, I can see your point, very valid as you expected some benefits when you made your purchase, but for many people, like me, the only reason to buy a note 8 was the device itself, I really did not care about points, bonuses, gifts, bundled goodies, etc, I just wanted the supberb device the note 8 is, but that is my opinion
winol said:
Well, I can see your point, very valid as you expected some benefits when you made your purchase, but for many people, like me, the only reason to buy a note 8 was the device itself, I really did not care about points, bonuses, gifts, bundled goodies, etc, I just wanted the supberb device the note 8 is, but that is my opinion
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Same all that extra ish....I never cared for.....am i even a loyal Samsung guy....no....even tho i favored Samsung phones over others from note 3 to 8....from Samsung epic 4g(s2) to s8+...
The only thing that would make me leave Samsung phones are the locked bootloader...but guess what it's still locked and I'm still here because the phones are just to good to pass on.....points? Meh.....but I do get it....its the principal of just letting us know....
I too normally feel that way about points programs. But this was a $200 rebate that is now $100 and other rebates from item purchases. I may have bought the products without the rebates IDK.
Samsung said at the ti. e of the purchase "here's the deal", paid me off in points, then reduced the value of the points WITHOUT notice. They retroactively changed the terms of the sale.
I dont buy Apple products because of company practices, so now Samsung has grown too big and developed that same "Do as we want to the customer" practice. Tired of their lies. What is the next lie to me?
Phredeee said:
I tonight find out that they do expire and they have all been devalued at some time in February of this year I think.
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Yes the points you earn were cut in half, yet the cost of items have remained the same which will take you twice as long to get something. I have been occasionally using Samsung Pay to get the $20 gift-card at 6000 points since they cut the points in half then I am probably dropping it. It was a great incentive to use Samsung pay but now it will take forever to get anything which makes the point system dang near useless. The only reason I may still use Samsung Pay is the security regarding those "skimmers" people are using at gas pumps/etc to help cut back on someone stealing my credit card number, even though it still happens every couple years or so...
Samsung Rewards rip-off
xbmoyx said:
..., yet the cost of items have remained the same .....
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Not true. The cost of items increased by 20%. See my example of a $100 rewards card increase from 40,000 points to 50,000 points. This happened across the board on the Rewards Cards. I've heard that gift cards and Samsung product redemptions also increased but can't confirm.
So it is a double whammy for their customers. You earn less AND it takes more at redemption. Done without notice or concern for their existing customers.
Sure, companies revamp their rewards programs. But they either pro rate existing points or notify the customer of upcoming changes or both. Samsung did neither.
Phredeee said:
Not true. The cost of items increased by 20%. See my example of a $100 rewards card increase from 40,000 points to 50,000 points. This happened across the board on the Rewards Cards. I've heard that gift cards and Samsung product redemptions also increased but can't confirm.
So it is a double whammy for their customers. You earn less AND it takes more at redemption. Done without notice or concern for their existing customers.
Sure, companies revamp their rewards programs. But they either pro rate existing points or notify the customer of upcoming changes or both. Samsung did neither.
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I believe there was a notification on the SamsungPay app/ email (I do not remember which or both). So, they are not deceptive. Maybe you missed it/ blatantly choose to ignore it?
Also, when you signup for Samsung Pay, it clearly says points expire after 1 year, so....
Sure, they did not grandfather the point values, but, those are points and if you really wanted to get something, you should have redeemed it. There is no reason to flak a company if you did not take pains to understand how and when the points expire. If its hurting your bottom line so much, did you try calling SamsungPay support and talk to them and inform about your concern? I have done that multiple times and they have been reasonable.
Reward programs and all will always change at the will of the company, thats what they mention in the fine print. So, if you "agreed" to the terms, you have little to no choice. As an individual, if you want to stop buying Samsung products, sure, its your choice. Will it change Samsung or anyone else? Not really. C'est la vie!
xbmoyx said:
Yes the points you earn were cut in half, yet the cost of items have remained the same which will take you twice as long to get something. I have been occasionally using Samsung Pay to get the $20 gift-card at 6000 points since they cut the points in half then I am probably dropping it. It was a great incentive to use Samsung pay but now it will take forever to get anything which makes the point system dang near useless. The only reason I may still use Samsung Pay is the security regarding those "skimmers" people are using at gas pumps/etc to help cut back on someone stealing my credit card number, even though it still happens every couple years or so...
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myechophone said:
I believe there was a notification on the SamsungPay app/ email (I do not remember which or both). So, they are not deceptive. Maybe you missed it/ blatantly choose to ignore it?
Also, when you signup for Samsung Pay, it clearly says points expire after 1 year, so....
Sure, they did not grandfather the point values, but, those are points and if you really wanted to get something, you should have redeemed it. There is no reason to flak a company if you did not take pains to understand how and when the points expire. If its hurting your bottom line so much, did you try calling SamsungPay support and talk to them and inform about your concern? I have done that multiple times and they have been reasonable.
Reward programs and all will always change at the will of the company, thats what they mention in the fine print. So, if you "agreed" to the terms, you have little to no choice. As an individual, if you want to stop buying Samsung products, sure, its your choice. Will it change Samsung or anyone else? Not really. C'est la vie!
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I received no notice. or I surely would not have chosen to lose over $100 by choice. Certainly not blatantly.
"...if you really wanted to get something, you should have redeemed it..." Really!? Is it not reasonable to let points accumulate in order to reach a desired goal?
If you read my post you will see where I mention it is not about my bottom line. Yes, I have spoken to SamsungPay support 4 times in the last day. Explaining each time, each time there is nothing offered, NOTHING. Realizing the first tier of support is limited to their authorization I request to speak to a supervisor. Each time I'm promised a call back. None of those 4 call backs have happened. The last was 4 hours ago. That's some customer respect, eh? " Just lie to them, they will go away." Going away is exactly what I'm doing. This is just one forum where I express my feeling on the issue. Perhaps someone else notices that is shopping. IDK, maybe.
There may have been some notice of point expiration and/or change in the rules in the boilerplate fine print in the beginning. Hardly clearly by any measure. No one that I know reads the entire EULAs/terms in detail. If Samsung cared about making these details clear they would be in the FAQs. I searched for an explanation and found nothing on their web site about the redemption value change. What's clear is that they don't want it clear. They didn't want a run on the points and if they can save $100 per customer it sure does help their bottom line. Most companies phase these changes in.
No, I don't think that my rant will directly affect Samsung at all. But remember, class actions all start with a single person.
Phredeee said:
I have used Samsung for a long time (including the Note 7 fiasco) and have many of their products in my house. I like using Samsung Pay, except it doesn't work on Apple Pay capable terminals in my area, but they have now gone too far. I'm done.
My rewards points were substantial. I was not aware they expired so I was just letting them roll. I tonight find out that they do expire and they have all been devalued at some time in February of this year I think. This devaluation has cost me $120+! There was no grandfathering or adjusting existing points with this unannounced and uninformed change. Further accumulating points has also been cut in half, basically.
If you take the time to dig you can find out about the expiring points on the Samsung Site, but you MUST dig. I was told by more than one Samsung Rep that they did NOT expire. If Samsung were a decent company it would appear in the FAQs. There is nothing anywhere about the devaluation of existing points, a $100 card went from 40,000 to 50,000 points or 20%!
They could have emailed notice of the redemption change, or prorated the old points, or grandfathered the redemption rate on old points, but nope. Nothing. Nada. Basically, we are taking back some of that money we promised you when you bought our product, too bad. I'm done with their big company bullying.
Does this break the bank? Of course not. It is the principle. There is too much decent competition out there and I'll live without Samsung Pay. By the time I buy another phone the world around here may have caught up and it will not be "special" anyway.
So if you have Samsung Rewards points, sorry about your luck.
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I mean it is kind of caveat emptor. I, it seems, wisely cashed in my points every 10K for my $50 gift cards. My wife just missed out on having enough this go around. Now she has close to the 12,500 that she needs, but it will take even longer. It is a free points system though, they don't even have to offer you anything. Plus you are getting any interest you may accrue by leaving the money in your bank account and paying your credit card once a month. You also get any rewards points that card may offer. It really is double or triple dipping.
I imagine people like my wife and I are the reason they halved it and increased it. We have extra phones and maxed them out every month under normal operation. To the tune of about $40 a month when you work the math out. I can't think of any reason Samsung will lose sleep over not retaining your business. This is truly a trivial reason to boycott them. What were you saving up for anyway? A Ferrari?
Hell I can think of a few reasons that personally effect me in a much larger financial scale right off the top of my head.
Note 7. $500+
Dropped support for my Note 12.2 Pro. $500+
ARC HDMI port stopped working on my 75" TV $2000+
Don't forget Samsung is the ONLY device with MST payments. I don't even carry a wallet anymore...and I've never had a terminal that would accept ApplePay and my phone/watch not work.
please note that in the retail business, expiring points is common practice. it is also stated somehwere in the 'fine print' that was never read and tossed away.
thinking otherwise is a grave misunderstanding on your part.
Anyways, the device it self and any marketing schemes are 2 things and are 2 very different departments. Hell, samsung usa samsung canada and samsung xyz all have their own terms and conditions.
its like buying mc donalds coffee and collecting the tags to evenrually get a free coffee. well they probably expire. and if they dont that means they reserve the right to pull the promo at anytime.
the question you need to ask yourself is:
are you buying the cofee because its good or because you want a free one eventually?
i work support in the retail business and loyalty accounts, points etc is just a scheme to make you buy more. Isint this common knowledge?
At this rate, you should boycott everything if you are unhappy with the terms because samsung is just the point of the iceberg.
in the long run, the only meaningful thing that you can do is stop spending money period. they are all out there to get you.
now with all these pay pass technologies you can spend even faster to accumulate more points to then spend them again etc...it never ends till you put a stop to it.
Ok. So the def. common practice caused you to boycott samsung products...
I see.
To he honest, I never paid attention to the rewards points. For me, the most important thing is the device itself, the design, the features, how advanced it is. I guess like Apple who never gave you any reward points will never piss you off
Me too for many reasons... Reason 1 is the delayed updates... RiP Samsung
DemGer said:
Me too for many reasons... Reason 1 is the delayed updates... RiP Samsung
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Wow. I guess Samsung will change their strategy. Too many people leaving.
DemGer said:
Me too for many reasons... Reason 1 is the delayed updates... RiP Samsung
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I got Oreo a week after the S8. Which came out like 6 months before. Of course they wouldn't release Oreo before the S9 came out. What delay?
A few points:
The interest earned current in bank accounts is miniscule. Credit card interest in my case is moot since I pay none.
It is not common practice to be so evasive informing customers that there are changes happening to loyalty programs. I've had loyalty points prorated when points were devalued. How far do you have to drill down at Samsungs Rewards website to find any mention of points expiring?
Samsung Customer Service promised many calls and emails that simply did not happen.
I have Samsung TVs, Washer, Dryer, Microwave, Refrigerator, Phones, and more. All purchased within the last 2 years with well over $15k spent.
It is not really about the money or the product, it is about how I'm being treated. I wasn't happy about how I was treated with the Note 7 either.
Samsung Pay capability and the $200 price reduction were by far the driving force behind my purchase of the Note 8. Samsung Pay is becoming less desirable since it works at fewer and fewer places as Apple Pay becomes more popular. My phone does not work wherever Apple Pay does (newer POS machines). I have talked to Samsung many times about this with zero results. The $200 rebate has changed now also. I am paying more for less.
Samsung expects me to return, and do without a phone for weeks, if I have a warranty issue. Even if the phone is only days old. This is just another detail that is not well communicated by Samsung.
I could go on and on about features promised but not available. So, my decision is about the cumulative disrespect shown by the "grown too large" Samsung.
Sure, it's a nice phone. But is it that much nicer than the competition if it doesn't have Samsung Pay and cost $100+ more? Why should I buy Samsung? Not price, not service, and the competition is close with other Android phones and I expect to be even closer as time goes on.
Well, clearly you made a big mistake when you bought a note series phone, this device is meant for those who find the s pen and all its functions the number 1 reason to buy it, if this unique characteristic was not the compelling reason to buy a note series device, then an iphone would have been a more useful option for you, as you said that you find more and more apple pay sites and less and less samsung pay sites, at least where you live or work or travel
I'm sorry but I am sure the rewards points expiring ins in the ToS agreement. You know that lil fine print everyone just checks I agree without reading. So it's on you and not them.
As far as updates it seems all phone makers and carriers drags their feet on updates. As they all love to put their little stuff in there over base android. If you want timely updates with android. You need to use a Google phone. I like samsung phones even with the note 7 fiasco. I started with moto original droid phone and moved to HTC but the phones went downhill over time.
I have used apple devices but found them lackluster at best. Not saying it's a bad phone as I suggest them to people that wants a phone that's simple to operate. All phones has their drawbacks
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