Update (21 Nov):
Unfortunately, we could not even establish consensus whether there was a problem or not. Some argued that the GPS problems only reflect normal manufacturing quality variance and others thought that the problem is a result of bad design or bad quality control (way above acceptable levels).
One member, ehe12, started a facebook page: Here is the original post by ehe12:
"Dear All, I have created a facebook group called Samsung Galaxy S GPS Issue, if you can all join and talk? Thanks. Also is there a way on facebook to vote? I will raise a vote for good/bad gps as well."
----------------------
original post:
Hi, like many of you I am very disappointed about the GPS performance. I am moving to the US next year from Europe and bought what I thought was the best android phone. I wanted to have on the go internet, email, camera and navigation. The last point is very important both for driving (I bought copilot US) and walking around in US cities or towns.
I tried every GPS "fix" recommendation and have maximized my SGS's GPS performance. However, the best I can get is still way below usefulness/expectations. Two service requests to Samsung for comments remained unanswered.
I am a strategy Prof at a business school and I hate the thought of consumers not having any power over companies. I am afraid Samsung may get away with ignoring old problems and releasing new phones instead thus driving the consumption spiral rather than focusing on optimizing existing platforms. Their strategy might be that we all (or new customers) will not be able to resist the temptation to just buy the new SGS version and throw away our "old" SGSi9000 next year. I think we could do something more proactive to let them feel that this might have costs, e.g. reputation effects, unwillingness to buy Samsung again and potential negative spillover to other Samsung product lines etc.
I know this is not a development thread. But we are all users not just developers. Perhaps some useful idea about how to engage Samsung powerfully, yet constructively comes out of this discussion?
Thanks, Chris
Flash mob of phone calls to their tech support centers?
that might just annoy their poor service center employees - I think we need something that gets senior management attention.
Totally agree with you.
I hate the fact that some users are just saying all phones have their faults and to deal with it. Yes is true all phones have thier fault but they should be supporting their users.
This is what samsung wants to hear, with enough pressure am sure samsung will act. How is the question
The best thing would be to get some of the big sites like Engadget or ArsTechnica report on this issue. That would get Samsung's attention.
I have tried calling their customer service centres a few times and it was a painful experience.
great idea! mobile phones are "experience goods", i.e. you need to buy it to find out how good it is. so some main drivers for purchase decisions are general reputation ("Samsung is known to produce good stuff..."); test and reviews in general and specialized media; recommendations from friends and virtual communities etc. this may be the weak point of Samsung.
However, our prime objective should be to get Samsung to produce better technology and give us better phones NOT to ruin their reputation etc. so we need a powerful - yet constructive - approach. maybe we could strategize and think through our options with someone form Engadget et al.? anyone has contacts to these guys?
darkoroje said:
The best thing would be to get some of the big sites like Engadget or ArsTechnica report on this issue. That would get Samsung's attention.
I have tried calling their customer service centres a few times and it was a painful experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Isn't that done already?
Samsung need to know how many people the poor gps problem affects. If someone could go to endgadget/gsm arena and say that there is still X amount of people with poor gps performance and point the finger showing the not every hansdset suffers so its some sort of manufacturing issue surely samsung would have to respond. (maby create a facebook group/online petition or something similar)
This is worse than the iphone4 problem as at least apple new it affected every handset, where this doesnt. Just highlights to me a pooor manufacturing process.
pau1200 said:
Samsung need to know how many people the poor gps problem affects. If someone could go to endgadget/gsm arena and say that there is still X amount of people with poor gps performance and point the finger showing the not every hansdset suffers so its some sort of manufacturing issue surely samsung would have to respond. (maby create a facebook group/online petition or something similar)
This is worse than the iphone4 problem as at least apple new it affected every handset, where this doesnt. Just highlights to me a pooor manufacturing process.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One suspects that Samsung already knows how many people are affected and perhaps they just do not want to admit publicly that their QA processes are completely f'ed up.
My opinion about Engadget - it appears they created the perception that Samsung is aware of the issues and has solved them by now. Otherwise it is hard to explain why millions of SGSs are still sold around the world.
This implies that a) people don't know, b) people think this is a minor issue, c) people think the problem has been solved etc
I think a public story or update about what really happened in the last 4 months is due - this would also include the Kies disaster, serious lags due to an innapropriate file system, and the lack of proactive communication with their global customer base.
In a way they really get it wrong - people here at XDA love to play with the software. Thus, having some minor flaws in a phone is great b/c it builds and legitimizes a community of super creative and smart people. Why not work closely with them as a company and co-create new firmware, apps etc....
How about everybody flooding twitter with "Samsung Galaxy Gps Faulty" or summits along them lines. It only takes five thousand tweets to make the top ten. I think if we all manage to get all our contacts to re tweet it we can get in the top ten. That might be a better way of getting the problem noticed and maybe get some media attention.
Plus Samsung seem quite vocal on twitter, maybe they will take note.
Sent From My GT-Iphone-killer almost.
A lot can talk the talk, but how many can walk the walk?
It takes about 5 seconds to click on the "Tip Us" link on engaget... If your GPS is flawed, why don't you do it? You might get more of Engadget / samsung's attention if you start by TIPING THEM ON THE ISSUE!
You really have to be taken by the hand and shown the way aren't y'all?
Good point and I have just filled in the tip us form. Now if more people do the same we may get a story
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
just did the same
I've just done the tip us thing too, if we get enough people to do this maybe we can get some attention to the problem and a definitive answer from samsung!
Everybody get everyone to fill it in!
have also tipped them
maybe it'll be a good idea to change the post title or create a separate one entirely so that the users of this forum can also tip them if they have the problem too.
Tip us counter?
deleted - makes no sense
one concern - are we alienating engadget with this?
I think the "tip us" function is meant to provide news not complaints.
I suggest the following:
Lets start a new thread entitled "Join us to get Samsung's attention" or something like that. We start a list of user names - anyone can add his/her name to extend the list - once the list has more than 100 names we send it to Engadget and start a new list - every 100 names creates a new email to Engagdet and I suggest that we send it to Josh, the editor in chief directly.
what do you think?
Petition Online?
what about using http://petitiononline.com/ ? you guys think it'd worth a shot?
I will also do anything the community is involved in. I have tipped.
Related
Please make this a sticky, or not...
http://www.petitiononline.com/tytn2vid/
You can watch the history here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339173
edit: and here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745
are you sure this petition will solve something? is there some similar petition, where htc (or any developer) heard voice of customer and solved some problem? little bit sceptic...
HTC is quite sensitive about its "bleeding edge tech" image. Such companies often have pr people roaming forums for ideas/infos.
Anyway if petitionning doesn't help, it can't harm.
hope you are right, guys!
Are there any other phones that use the same processor? Is there a possibility we could steal the drivers from elsewhere or do they simply not exist?
Is anyone working on this in case HTC doesn't grace us with a solution?
Also check this out for other problems that can be solved only by HTC:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745
Wow not even 24 hrs and over a hundred signatures. This is great. I dont think we're asking for much especially for the price we all have paid.
Bump !
Nice, 146 signatures atm.
Incidentally, it should be "seems TO behave in an unacceptably slow manner," it should be "slideshow" instead of "sideshow," and "please PROVIDE a FULL-FLEDGED SDK" rather than "prove" and "full fledge."
Otherwise, thanks for the work you're putting into this.
The camera driver could use a kick in the pants. I've found that setting the resolution to "fine" and "2megapixel" seems to get a "good enough" shot.
How about a petition to fix the low bluetooth headset volume issue??
Bump !
While we are doing this (I did sign the petition) let's all remind ourselves about how good the device is.
Let's all stay positive and focus on the handful of issues we have such as this.
I'm sure if we get enough people and do engage them on a polite level we may be met half way. Also it may be important to highlight to them that these signatures are coming from the technically involved contingent of TyTn II owners and as such the number of signatures do not reflect what a real world response may be (including those who do not frequent xda-dev forums)
bishopau said:
While we are doing this (I did sign the petition) let's all remind ourselves about how good the device is.
Let's all stay positive and focus on the handful of issues we have such as this.
I'm sure if we get enough people and do engage them on a polite level we may be met half way. Also it may be important to highlight to them that these signatures are coming from the technically involved contingent of TyTn II owners and as such the number of signatures do not reflect what a real world response may be (including those who do not frequent xda-dev forums)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree but why haven't anyone stuck this thread yet??! It's really hard to come across it!
I'll bump it every now and then.
Btw: i have new issues now: with the sound (also a crappy driver): it stutters, cranks and lags...
I'll compile my issues with the kaiser in a new thread soon (i mean the issues from a techie developer point of view, not something like: "my delivery reports don't show the contact name, they show the number, please help, htc")
Signed. #234
Looks like since the petition is "anonymous" it may be removed soon. Someone, like the originator, needs to provide contact info, it seems.
This petition will be removed shortly if we do not receive a full and valid author name. Anonymous petitions are not allowed. The author of this petition must follow the instructions in the email we sent, or submit their full name in the author administration area, or send an email to [email protected] from the email address they used to setup this petition with their full name, and petition ID, tytn2vid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Woohoo! I'm #300.
I suggest every Kaiser owner add the link in their signature.
signed and fingers crossed
this device is good, but it could be heaps better and so I signed the petition.
The site is up and running, discussion here!
Frontpage is done, see http://www.htcclassaction.org/. Feel free to comment. None of the other pages on the site are done yet, though.
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
There isn't really a point to the petition, as companies don't really care. There probably isn't a big point with a class action lawsuit either, as it's entirely possible we won't win. It is something that should be investigated, as ultimately, it's just a way of applying pressure, getting publicity and raising awareness.
And nope, I'm not a former employee, but I am disgruntled by the way HTC is treating us.
Looks very good!
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about people who already use their hard earned money and brought the device already?
jackleung said:
What about people who already use their hard earned money and brought the device already?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The most basic rule when buying a PDA: Only buy what you know youre getting, not what you think youre getting. I learnt that the hard way three years ago,its the same game all over. I think its an annual event.
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you should read the main thread before posting crap like this. There are plenty of people, including myself who think a class action suite would be a good idea. Even if we didn't win or had no real grounds for one, the negative feedback alone could cause HTC to do something about the driver support.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339745
Vukile said:
I understand the point of a petition, but a lawsuit? Why dont you get a Nokia or something,get your mind off things,cool down. I think youre coming across as a disgruntled former employee about to go postal.schitzo...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As Chainfire mentioned, petitions never work. This is because people eventually "cool off" and stop caring that they've been ripped off.
If I paid a lot less for my Kaiser, I wouldn't care as much that it's being outperformed by the older cheaper HTC models. We paid an arm and leg for these costly phones, we'd expect them to at least give us the basics (drivers).
How would you feel if you bought some fancy & expensive graphics board only to have to use the generic drivers that come with your OS?
Chainfire, great work. Let us know when you've set up the paypal account.
Oh, by the way, wonderful site Chainfire. It has all the info needed in one neatly organized site.
Excellent site Chainfire. If this is indicative of the effort you put into things, my previous (and future) donations have been well spent!! Very clear and to the point.
I posted a link on the "Proper video drivers...." sticky to a Google page tlaking about the bright new future of Android. Just wondered if it is worth highlighting to visitors to the site that HTC is one of the core companies developing this - perhaps if they realise HTC's attitude will affect more than just the current devices. Or maybe they won't care as most casual browsers don't know what Android is? Ah, I don't know.
Hey, if we draw public attention to all this, and then someone manages to address the issue here on XDA-devs, could that cause problems - infringment of copyright etc?
I don't understand the point of this petition, or a law suite for that matter. What do 99% of people do with their Kaisers anyway? There are lots of people around me where I work that use Windows smart phones and they are happy to get their push mail, GPS, bluetooth, whatever. I think they could care less about video drivers.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to have some video acceleration, but most users probably could care less. We are the minority.
I think raising awareness is a great idea. Perhaps listing those manufactures that actually support their WinMo devices with proper drivers is even better, so potential buyers would know to spend their money else wehere.
I got my Kaiser as a Tilt from AT&T. I had 30 days to return it. I was given ample opportunity to play with it, install software, and make my complaint. I kept the device. No one was being forced to buy these things.
If you bought an unlocked Kaiser and spend a large bit of cash, well you take the first movers risk. No reason anyone couldn't wait to see what others though of the device before purchasing it.
You certainly can't will things into existence. Can't buy an HTC phone and wish into existence some drivers that it never had in the first place.
As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some. GPS, pushmail, Pocket IE, it all pretty much works as expected. I understand that the qualcomm chipset may certainly be capable of video acceleration, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific feature that HTC was going after when it made the Kaiser.
I'm not trying to ruin anyones plans or desires to get the most out of their phones, but why not just not buy the phone?
I for one look forward to something like Android, so hobbiests and consumers can put the features they want to exploit in to place on phones like the Kaiser. I hope this drastically changes the market and gives us more choice in our software, and forces manufacturers to do more than the bare minimum with these devices.
-James
jmacdonald801 said:
As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, given older HTC devices never mentioned video acceleration in their specs either and that they're certainly performing better than the Kaiser, I think it's fair to expect performance which at the very least matches that of former models.
I got my Kaiser as a Tilt from AT&T. I had 30 days to return it. I was given ample opportunity to play with it, install software, and make my complaint. I kept the device. No one was being forced to buy these things...
...As much as I would like video acceleration, I'm not sure where it is that HTC specifically stated their would be some. GPS, pushmail, Pocket IE, it all pretty much works as expected. I understand that the qualcomm chipset may certainly be capable of video acceleration, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific feature that HTC was going after when it made the Kaiser.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate to say it, but jmac makes very good points. Awareness is fine. Negative publicity might cause some action. but such a lawsuit isn't very winnable here since there were no real explicit promises broken here. Any "promises borken" were more hopes and expectations that were not made by the manufacturer.
But who knows, this being a very HTC centric forum, it could make them take a little notice, but most likely this isn't a winnable case.
jomo25 said:
I hate to say it, but jmac makes very good points. Awareness is fine. Negative publicity might cause some action. but such a lawsuit isn't very winnable here since there were no real explicit promises broken here. Any "promises borken" were more hopes and expectations that were not made by the manufacturer.
But who knows, this being a very HTC centric forum, it could make them take a little notice, but most likely this isn't a winnable case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hehe, as stated elsewhere, it's mostly a pressure and publicity tool. In the end, if we do do the case, it doesn't even really matter if we win it. The publicity and awareness it will generate... There's the headology factor. People are happy using a gadget. People learn the gadget can do a lot more then it does. People are unhappy using the gadget. People complain about the gadget. Creator of gadget fixes gadget
Mark my words, if enough attention is given to this, HTC will do the right thing, if only to save face.
Great site so far Chainfire. I pray that this brings enough attention to move HTC to action. Without those drivers, I can compare this to buying a Corvette only to realize once on the road that the governor is set to 30mph.
Satus update
Status update:
The site is almost finished and uploaded, apart from the "Responses from HTC" section.
- Please read the 'drivers in detail' page and tell me what you think
- Please help me collect 'carrier branded' names of the devices in question
I have also setup a paypal address for donations for the AdWords campaign only, you can find a button on the "What you can do" page. I already put 100 euro's in there myself, and it's been getting extra visitors for almost an hour now.
Before I finish the "Responses from HTC" part, start submitting to slashdot, digg, etc, it's time for dinner
you might want to add the htc vogue/sprint touch to your list on htcclassaction.org, it suffers the same problem and i believe it has a similar chipset with the same 3d hardware.
i think htc will just say,well just because the chipset we use has 3d hardware built in doesn't mean we have to enable or support it because it was never advertised as such.
I'd have to download and extract a ROM to be sure though, I'll do that later.
jmacdonald801 said:
I don't understand the point of this petition, or a law suite for that matter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What he said...but I am a little under the influence right now. To be honest, my phone works for GPS, works for email, works for web browsing, sync's via activesync, plays movies just fine (no slider issues when adjusting sound), allows me to read ebooks, works with office mobile (though I would like to be able to save Word documents as .DOC files, not .DOCX). Guess I'm with the 99% because I really don't see any issues with the phone that cause me to get on a soapbox. I really don't care if this makes me unpopular, but I'm so sick of people coming on this forum and moaning about video driver issues. Show me one other device that does all the things that a Kaiser can do? iPhone, no GPS and limited open source unless you want to run the risk of bricking the device, Nokia? Please, I had the 9xxx series of communicators for years. I had the choice between the latest comunicator series or the Kaiser, I went with the Kaiser as Symbian sucked. The N95, QWERTY keyboard???
This phone is not designed as a graphics device, its a business tool. If you want DVD quality movies, buy a portable DVD player, graphic intensive games, get a PSP. I have a Nokia 2110 mobile from 10 years ago that can't handle MID files, a Garmin Sat-Nav the size of a house brick and a digital camera that uses 3.5" floppy discs cause memory cards hadn't been invented when it was launched. HTC have packed an MP3 player, sat-nav, laptop computer, digital camera, mobile phone (...the list goes on) inside a device the size of a packet of cigarettes. Personally I think this is amazing, lets give them a bit of credit for doing this!
[/drunk rant off...]
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/17/htc_chipset_anger/
Was kind of surprised to see this front page on the register.
rascalion said:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/17/htc_chipset_anger/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tha ball is starting to roll. great.
They've asked for people to let them know if they've had a problem. Best we all in get in touch, methinks. If they get another 4000 people complaining directly to them, it'll be more negative press for HTC, and it's more likely that they'll have to do something about it.
this is great. and other news sites checking their competitors will hopefuly se the post and write about it more.
Tweakers.net reports the same problem on the frontpage.
It's a rather big community for The Netherlands and Belgium.
I hope more prestigious websites will follow just to make HTC clear it's a major problem which needs a good solution right away.
Their trying to stall for time, but great response so far!
Absolutely fabulous! Great support so far from other major Pocket PC websites. I'm delighted already. At this pace HTC will have to do a lot better than to ask for stupid e-mails detailing what has been made very clear to them already!
Don't fall for the time wasting e-mails friends. If you do send one, why not simply direct them to http://www.htcclassaction.org/ for a detailed explanation of our problems encountered.
If we do this any other way, they will only look at how many of these registered devices are HTC branded and try to diminish responsibility of all the other Network branded Kaiser's that they produced.
Our Serial numbers and other ref numbers is irrelevant to the problem, as is our ROM details. We switched ROMs because of these issues and we still have them!
For those who know what I'm saying please explain in better ways than I have. I'm not too good with words.
thats Good
wow..it seem a good sign..we will get our driver fix..soon..yeahh
Now we just need to forward these news articles/coverage to HTC to make sure THEY know that their asses are in the spotlight now. It would be great if we could get additional coverage on even bigger sites and networks. This is how a lot of battles against big corporations are fought by us little people today; by going to news sources to spread the word.
Hurray for my first post!
Even better would be if every one from this board Diggs the story forcing it around the internet. This link should work.
Digg It
Sounds great!
they better start this driver and release it soon otherwise they are most definitly looking at a lawsuite.
mackaby007 said:
Absolutely fabulous! Great support so far from other major Pocket PC websites. I'm delighted already. At this pace HTC will have to do a lot better than to ask for stupid e-mails detailing what has been made very clear to them already!
Don't fall for the time wasting e-mails friends. If you do send one, why not simply direct them to http://www.htcclassaction.org/ for a detailed explanation of our problems encountered.
If we do this any other way, they will only look at how many of these registered devices are HTC branded and try to diminish responsibility of all the other Network branded Kaiser's that they produced.
Our Serial numbers and other ref numbers is irrelevant to the problem, as is our ROM details. We switched ROMs because of these issues and we still have them!
For those who know what I'm saying please explain in better ways than I have. I'm not too good with words.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand where you are coming from and I don't mean to be insulting but your post is very contra productive.
Just forwarding a website to them will not get their attention.
Admitting you are using homebrew ROMs will make them ignore you.
For HTC to take the issue seriously (I've stated this in numerous posts by now) they need:
1. People calling them first and foremost. E-mail is secondary.
2. a) People describing symptoms of these issues. b) The issues should preferebly be described when using the pre-loaded applications.
3. That users stick to the pre-loaded ROM/Radio.
I know it sounds stupid but this is how tech support works at major companies.
They don't have time to listen to nuts who have tweaked their units to the max and fire off an e-mail asking for a driver. They need to know what the symptoms of the supposed issue are. How to reproduce the issues and they need to filter out all factors that can be attributed to user fault or third party software.
Again, you might certainly think it's stupid but let's face it we have nothing to gain by not playing by their rules when it comes to error reporting. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.
just to get the story out there some more i've sent a mail/contacted te following to try get some more exposure:
bbc
itn
thesun
thetimes
pocketpcmag (also posted on their forums)
here's hoping this will gather momentum....
Nice to see the pressreleases we (HTCClassAction.org) have sent out are having this effect. Let's just hope more sites pick it up!
theflash42 said:
Even better would be if every one from this board Diggs the story forcing it around the internet. This link should work.
Digg It
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would be MUCH more useful if you Digg the site that is spearheading it all:
Digg HTCClassAction.org
i highly doubt htc will fix these issues.. i smell a new phone coming our way soon! (6months)
For All
Hello,
Look an another article for Plaint of HTC driver.
http://www.theinquirer.fr/2008/01/1...s_graphiques_de_mobiles_htc.html#comment-9498
Please post your Comment at the end of the page of this web site !!!
Found it on google.news
Private69.
@++++
It shouldn't be just about the 'driver issue', it should be more towards producing a quality product, and not a defective product, and their 'current ethics' involved in pushing a product out the door before it is ready to impress investors with bottom line figures and ultimately producing a defective product.
Long time ago, two review sites already complained about the lag:
http://www.wirelessinfo.com/content/AT-T-Tilt-Cell-Phone-Review.htm
http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_tytn_2-review-181.php
It's not news to HTC. They're just sandbagging.
undac said:
Admitting you are using homebrew ROMs will make them ignore you.
For HTC to take the issue seriously (I've stated this in numerous posts by now) they need:
1. People calling them first and foremost. E-mail is secondary.
2. a) People describing symptoms of these issues.
b) The issues should preferebly be described when using the pre-loaded applications.
3. That users stick to the pre-loaded ROM/Radio.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, this is probably true but if you check the specs on the Qulacomm chip, it purportedly has support for common Windows video formats as well, that should play under Windows Media Player such as the AVI files that my cheapo camera records. If you do contact them this is probaby enough information on the video aspect that we need to supply (AVI files on WMP). In fact, I'll have to dig up my camera encode specs as this is very telling. I am sure the chip in my camera has no where near the horpower of the Kaiser chip. In addition, it cost less than $200.
As for the ROM, I would guess they might question this as well. Although it is not a likely culpret, it does make their support job a lot more difficult and I could see where they might take the easy road and dismiss the issue as user created. However, in my case I installed a ROM that is actually closer to the HTC shipped ROM. So if they tested their ROM, and the hardware differences are minimal (I think the front side camera is the only real difference), the possibilty that the issue is related to the updated ROM is pretty slim.
At any rate, I think there is plenty of evidence that both the stock shipped HTC ROM and the stock sipped AT&T ROM have this issue. There have also been plenty of complaints coming from the other side of the pond, so if ALL ROM appear to show this problem, it is a moot point, no?
jgermuga said:
At any rate, I think there is plenty of evidence that both the stock shipped HTC ROM and the stock sipped AT&T ROM have this issue. There have also been plenty of complaints coming from the other side of the pond, so if ALL ROM appear to show this problem, it is a moot point, no?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In your eyes, yes.
In the techie kind of guys eyes, yes.
In HTCs eyes, no.
In the eys of the casual observer, no.
It's not ourselves we have to convince, it's HTC. And we can only do that by playing their game. No matter how silly and cumbersome you think it is.
HTC doesn't have to and shouldn't have to support a modified ROM no matter how good the user thinks it is.
Nor can they be responsible for third party software unless it's very obvious that the third party software works great on all but their products. (Which in turn makes it easier to just skip the third party step and give HTC input based on their pre-loaded software.)
As I said, I'm not saying your opinion about the sillyness of it all is wrong or unjustified. I'm just saying it's contra productive to the cause.
Even though HTC has many reports, seen petitions, the looming threat of a lawsuit etc. the holy grail of any company such as this is till support tickets. Once their systems is swamped with tickets containing the same problem enough times that's when they start acting.
I know this because:
a) I worked tech support for similair companies when I was younger.
b) I've handled numerous cases like these before. And I used to try your approach, it simply never works.
c) I worked as an editor and I've interviewed several support managers and such.
There's no point in acting based upon how you want things to work. If a result is what you need, rather than just to blow off steam, you need to work the system and play by their rules.
Again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just strongly advice against it as I think it would do more harm than good here.
Guys,
Lets help our campaign by writing a bad review of HTC Kaiser here:
HTC Kaiser at Amazon.com
And dont forget to click "Yes" on Was this review helpful to you?
Say that you own it (yes you are!) and how you dont like it due to the performance and drivers issue (and other issues like BT, etc.).
Note that you should be honest about the review.
If you think you like the Kaiser/Tilt the way it is now, then it is good for you (be happy!).
However, if you are not satisfied with the device (and/or HTC), you feel cheated by HTC, please put your voice out (write a review).
Dont tell lie, just express your feelings about it.
If you still dont get it, check HTCClassAction
Other reviews :
Expansys.com
ATTWireless.com
Newegg.com
Amazon.co.uk
(Edit: replaced duplicate post with cross-link)
For some background on the purpose of this thread, read this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1861963&postcount=865
Good idea to get everyone to post bad reviews, but PLEASE make sure that the reviews are honest and can be substantiated. The last thing we want is for HTC to point out that we have been organising a slander campaign.
Thanks gogol for starting this thread. Remember everyone, it's not just the Kaiser that's suffering from this issue. Here's the complete list:
http://www.htcclassaction.org/devices.php
If you own any of these devices, you're entitled to share your experience with other potential buyers.
Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-2541160-4372107?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=htc
Amazon.co.uk:
http://amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=htc
Epinions.com:
http://www.epinions.com/search/?sub...arch_vertical=all&tax_name=&search_string=htc
What are some other sites you've used to research tech devices, where we can add consumer reviews?
ach2 said:
Good idea to get everyone to post bad reviews, but PLEASE make sure that the reviews are honest and can be substantiated. The last thing we want is for HTC to point out that we have been organising a slander campaign.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely. Thank you for mentioning that ach2. I've tried to also make that clear in every one of my comments. DO NOT POST false accusations or be unfair. And do not post about devices you don't own or haven't observed any issues with. Don't mark a post as Helpful unless you feel it is correct and helpful. (For example, I saw a negative review stating that WM6 is a bad OS. I do not personally feel that way, so I did not mark the review as helpful to me. Likewise, in my own review I did not mention Bluetooth or speakerphone issues because I have not had a bad experience with those aspects of my device.)
Simply put, if you write a review, be honest.
Couldn't agree more. Thats why I've kept my review simple and have referenced the website:
www.htcclassaction.org.
I suggest everyone else should do the same. If the website keeps popping up people will go and some may even read!!
Be warned that it can take from 1 - 6 days for the review to appear.
Other useful things are to rate 5 star reviews as "not helpful" and poor reviews as "helpful" to help dissuade people from this crippled platform.
Whats the point in this may I ask.
What exactly is the issue with the kaiser as I cannot see any issues with the one I have from vodafone. It does all I want it to do and it does it very well and quickly enough for me not to worry if its being slow.
The device is technically a PDA, it does email, office, internet, and a host of other things, its not a TV, or a portable dvd player or an ipod.
Whats the point in slating the device on amazon if this affects the way htc operates and affects its business.
I wonder if people writing these reviews have looked at the bigger picture.
I would suggest if you do not like the device and have issues with it, then maybe the device is not the most ideal device for you.
Tom Williams said:
I would suggest if you do not like the device and have issues with it, then maybe the device is not the most ideal device for you.
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Click to collapse
I see your point Tom. However, if I have an issue with the way the device was marketed to me -- which is contrary to the way the device actually performs -- then I am also entitled to share my opinion with others. Because "if the device is not the most ideal device" for me, then it probably isn't for others either. I wish someone had told me about these problems before I signed a 2-year agreement. Therefore, I'm going to let others know so they can make a truly informed decision before they do the same. After all, isn't that the point of reviews, good or bad?
I would suggest that if you DO like the device, you offer a well-thought-out, positive review about the device. That's fair!
Edit:
Tom Williams said:
What exactly is the issue with the kaiser as I cannot see any issues with the one I have from vodafone. It does all I want it to do and it does it very well and quickly enough for me not to worry if its being slow.
The device is technically a PDA, it does email, office, internet, and a host of other things, its not a TV, or a portable dvd player or an ipod.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're completely satisfied with your device then don't go looking for faults. However, if you want understand the real issue (and I respectfully add that your comment about it being a media device suggests that you don't understand the real issue yet), then go to http://www.htcclassaction.org/misunderstandings.php. This lays out the real problem that people are upset with... and will probably change your opinion about your device. You've been warned.
lol, some of the 1 star reviews on amazon are just too funny.
"I also have not been able to figure out how to add a number to the address book? Menu> add new, would be my guess, but that's not it, and I haven't figured it out yet. (As an advanced IT guy, I should be able to figure out even something not apparent in a couple of minutes, but not so). "
I dont remember too well, but i think there's a "new" softkey right next to the "menu" softkey
This has been discussed and debated many times.
Just read over http://www.htcclassaction.org
If you dont agree with this move or campaign, then it is not for you.
So, please leave this thread.
Tom Williams said:
Whats the point in this may I ask.
What exactly is the issue with the kaiser as I cannot see any issues with the one I have from vodafone. It does all I want it to do and it does it very well and quickly enough for me not to worry if its being slow.
The device is technically a PDA, it does email, office, internet, and a host of other things, its not a TV, or a portable dvd player or an ipod.
Whats the point in slating the device on amazon if this affects the way htc operates and affects its business.
I wonder if people writing these reviews have looked at the bigger picture.
I would suggest if you do not like the device and have issues with it, then maybe the device is not the most ideal device for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tom Williams said:
Whats the point in this may I ask.
What exactly is the issue with the kaiser as I cannot see any issues with the one I have from vodafone. It does all I want it to do and it does it very well and quickly enough for me not to worry if its being slow.
The device is technically a PDA, it does email, office, internet, and a host of other things, its not a TV, or a portable dvd player or an ipod.
Whats the point in slating the device on amazon if this affects the way htc operates and affects its business.
I wonder if people writing these reviews have looked at the bigger picture.
I would suggest if you do not like the device and have issues with it, then maybe the device is not the most ideal device for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For the newbies just joining the forum may i present Exhibit A, the above post, which I will mark "How to jump in without bothering to look at the issue"
FYI if i buy a car that is marketed with a turbo and then the car maker don't actually connect the turbo up (AND DON'T TELL YOU!) do I have the right to be annoyed? If I buy a computer with the latest gee whizz graphics and it then refuses to run in anything but safe mode should I be a tad peeved??
HTC have marketed this "PDA" as having a "rich multimedia experience" to quote one part of their advertising blurb. So I think it is not unreasonable for this device to fulfil these expectations.
Over here its called "false advertising".
With regards to "the big picture" I would respectfully point you to the previously mentioned website so you can perhaps educate and inform yourself. I will live in hope but I won't hold my breath.
Oh and the point of the amazon campaign is very simple - to stop people who want a gadget that does everything from spending their hard earned cash - god only knows we work damn hard for it and its not too much to expect a company that has made massive profits not to FLEECE US.
rant over.
getwilde said:
What are some other sites you've used to research tech devices, where we can add consumer reviews?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Expansys UK is another site where users can leave reviews. Particularly good site to post a review on as their homepage has the TyTN 2 on it, with a "Most popular" sticker on it.
However, their reviews are moderated before posting and the review I submitted three weeks ago has yet to see the light of day - perhaps a little too honest for the censors (sorry, I mean moderators)
This move to orchestrate mass negative reviews on another site (Amazon)will be considered malicious and counter-productive in several ways:
1.
It may be harmful to the class action moves because it shows an intent to damage sales on the as yet "unproven" case by organising the hijack of the Amazon site's review system that by all accounts has shown little but positive reviews by those who have "genuinely" purchased from that site.
2.
It implicates XDA-Developers in conspiratorial manipulation of a third party site.
3
It defeats our purpose which is to persuade HTC by petition and class action to produce the drivers we would like. This action is a direct attack on sales that will be permanent - in as much as the reviews folk post on Amazon will remain there even if HTC respond to pressure and produce suitable drivers. It is not persuasive from HTC's point of view, if they continue to lose sales regardless of whether they produce the drivers or not.
I feel this kind of action falls below the standards of an honest campaign, as already started and now being reported elsewhere (other sites). The pressure is being put on by up-front means and is gaining support.
However, conspiring to manipulate product reviews elsewhere will not necessarily be looked on favorably be Amazon, HTC AT&T and other providers and if as I think likely the wider press begins to take notice of the campaign, this will be a shabby episode and ammunition for HTC.
My personal point of view - this kind of action is going in the wrong direction. Let's make our case for the drivers and make it well, we need to keep the moral high ground. If we are making a case that we have been "wronged" then we don't want to be seen scrabbling around in the muck of petty review rigging at Amazon.
Mike
mikechannon said:
This move to orchestrate mass negative reviews on another site (Amazon)will be considered malicious and counter-productive in several ways:
1.
It may be harmful to the class action moves because it shows an intent to damage sales on the as yet "unproven" case by organising the hijack of the Amazon site's review system that by all accounts has shown little but positive reviews by those who have "genuinely" purchased from that site.
2.
It implicates XDA-Developers in conspiratorial manipulation of a third party site.
3
It defeats our purpose which is to persuade HTC by petition and class action to produce the drivers we would like. This action is a direct attack on sales that will be permanent - in as much as the reviews folk post on Amazon will remain there even if HTC respond to pressure and produce suitable drivers. It is not persuasive from HTC's point of view, if they continue to lose sales regardless of whether they produce the drivers or not.
I feel this kind of action falls below the standards of an honest campaign, as already started and now being reported elsewhere (other sites). The pressure is being put on by up-front means and is gaining support.
However, conspiring to manipulate product reviews elsewhere will not necessarily be looked on favorably be Amazon, HTC AT&T and other providers and if as I think likely the wider press begins to take notice of the campaign, this will be a shabby episode and ammunition for HTC.
My personal point of view - this kind of action is going in the wrong direction. Let's make our case for the drivers and make it well, we need to keep the moral high ground. If we are making a case that we have been "wronged" then we don't want to be seen scrabbling around in the muck of petty review rigging at Amazon.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you go on and slander and make unsubstantiated claims that is one thing, however, as long as your factual and honest I see no harm in posting a review of the device. Most reviews on these sites are people justifying their expensive purchase by giving it 5 stars and writing about how its the best thing ever. The choppy video performance, touchscreen lags, etc are all facts and the consumer should be aware of these problems before purchasing. I wish some of these reviews were out there before I made my purchase.
mikechannon said:
This move to orchestrate mass negative reviews on another site (Amazon)will be considered malicious and counter-productive in several ways:
1.
It may be harmful to the class action moves because it shows an intent to damage sales on the as yet "unproven" case by organising the hijack of the Amazon site's review system that by all accounts has shown little but positive reviews by those who have "genuinely" purchased from that site.
2.
It implicates XDA-Developers in conspiratorial manipulation of a third party site.
3
It defeats our purpose which is to persuade HTC by petition and class action to produce the drivers we would like. This action is a direct attack on sales that will be permanent - in as much as the reviews folk post on Amazon will remain there even if HTC respond to pressure and produce suitable drivers. It is not persuasive from HTC's point of view, if they continue to lose sales regardless of whether they produce the drivers or not.
I feel this kind of action falls below the standards of an honest campaign, as already started and now being reported elsewhere (other sites). The pressure is being put on by up-front means and is gaining support.
However, conspiring to manipulate product reviews elsewhere will not necessarily be looked on favorably be Amazon, HTC AT&T and other providers and if as I think likely the wider press begins to take notice of the campaign, this will be a shabby episode and ammunition for HTC.
My personal point of view - this kind of action is going in the wrong direction. Let's make our case for the drivers and make it well, we need to keep the moral high ground. If we are making a case that we have been "wronged" then we don't want to be seen scrabbling around in the muck of petty review rigging at Amazon.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm afraid I don't agree.
1) "Intent to damage sales". EVERYTHING that we have done could be interpreted as an intent to damage sales. By its very definition that is what negative publicity does.
2) How are we manipulating amazon? All we are doing is encouraging people with kaisers to publish a negative review of their under-performing product. It would be vote rigging/product manipulation if I got my friends who DONT own kaisers to post reviews. If and its a big IF we ever get these drivers I will be the first in line to ask for my review to be withdrawn on the grounds it is no longer accurate.
With regards to this so-called "honest campaign" what exactly does that mean?? We have started a website, we are posting our reviews of our device and referencing the htcclassaction website. How is this in any way dishonest?
At the end of the day some people have paid up to $700 for this "product" and they are entitled to be heard be it through htcclassaction or via the posting of a negative review. How is this any different to when a "reputable" website posts an negative review of a product??
We have made our case for the drivers and we have been told in no uncertain terms to **** off. This needs to be brought to the wider (Read: non-techie) public and one of the ways of doing this is the posting on more consumer orientated websites such as amazon.
I added a negative (but accurate) review on amazon a few days ago, which is showing up for the TYTN II.
I'm sorry mikechannon, but I disagree with you.
First of all, it is not "permanent", as you say. Your own review is editable. If HTC releases drivers, I will gladly change my review. I actually look forward to changing it. If they don't release drivers, my review stays negative.
Secondly, how is giving a perfectly honest and appropriate negative review any different than emailing weblogs like Engadget and Gizmodo to bring attention to it, or starting a website called "HTCClassAction", or having numerous threads going, regarding this issue, in the Kiaser forum here on XDA - arguably the biggest and most influential HTC community forum in the english language?
It is not any different. It is all bad publicity, and frankly, there needs to be more of it. HTC's press release basically said:
"Well, you caught us, we didn't support the included hardware, but we aren't going to fix it. If you want that functionality you are going to have to buy the next device we release."
Apparently they are not familiar with advertising laws in the US. And I quote from their HTC America website:
"Rich media experience with AT&T Mobile Music, Video, TV and games"
We can all agree the media experience is anything but "rich".
The only caution I would have for people giving negative reviews is to do so on the appropriate Amazon domain. If you are a UK or European customer, do it on Amazon UK. If you are in the US and on AT&T, do it on Amazon.com.
If the review is an honest review, then I have to say then the more reviews the better.
I for one wish I had known about the driver issues prior to purchase and prior to signing up for a two year agreement with AT&T.
Isn't the point of these Amazon reviews to point out that a device may have problems?
Dont forget to write reviews on sites such as www.newegg.com and www.buy.com that sell a LOT of these phones.
Guys, there's not much point in continuing to argue about mikechannon's post. He's shown himself to be an HTC fanboy with not much good sense in many of his recent posts. Best to just ignore him and move on. I've posted what I feel is a fairly impartial review on amazon and epinions. Don't forget to review the Tilt as well, since it's sold under that moniker a lot under Amazon.
Hello Friends!
I'm admin of polish fan site about Samsung Wave, which is in some way banned here in xda, because I could not find any topic about it
Anyway, we are aware of Samsung that starting to behave like other big company's in terms of 'user feedback'. A lot of customers that bought Wave are complaying about several, not repaired until today issues/bugs, these are :
1. RAM issues - It has got 512MB, but it goes like it would have 128-256MB.
user who tooks his device from the box sometimes can't even open a website without 'error, no memory, close some apps to free more' - but user than sees, that there is nothing else than webbrowser opened!
2. Lack of office-files editing options avalible in the phone. This is what I use a lot. On my forum there are two main voices - one half says "if you want it, pay for it", second half thinks like me - device for this cash, should have it built-in.
3. Treating users, and their opinions by Samsung - We stated our demands 3-4 moths ago. Samsung never reveals changelogs in his fw - moreover, when we claerly said 'answer our questions with something more than <<we will talk this internaly>> <<we will think about that>> etc... What they did ? Yes, they answered us just same way as always, God!....
There should be some great apps in SamsungApps, where are they ? Why can't we get more than 1 app running at the time ? Imagine using SPB Mobile Shell, and nothing more, because this is how phone behave. It just restarts the secondly and more apps to their "first splash screen". So Yes, you can run multiply instances of programs, but in REAL time (and thats what multitasking means) you can run just ONE APP....
Other words : Samsung Wave with his issues is still being used by thousends of people. Me and my friends we got many so-going issues with out Waves and I personally cannot belive, that this is not a problem of every single user.
That stated I must say, that I liked Wave v.much, by I was pushed by Samsung to sell it. RAM/Multitasking is worse than in old NokiaN95-2.
So if you agree with us, or got 30 seconds to spent, please help us all and sign/like this.
This is petition link :
petitionspot.com/petitions/ImproveSamsungBADA
Your sincerly
Bart
Samsung, in my opinion anyways, are well known for pushing some bad firmware to devices, and having no transparency about issues and what is going on to resolve them. IN the 4/5months that I had an Omnia HD I8910HD I had many issues, all were meant to be fixed by a magical firmware upgrade that was meant to be released about 4 days after I got the phone. They never released it, it got pushed back and back, and I still do not know if they have released it. Its a shame, as I know their TV support is well equipped.
Basically, I feel this will fall onto death ears, and samsung will just continue repeating themselves.
worst/lamest/corniest name ever for a software meant to be bought by millions
It's not badass
Not to offend you [OP]. But as an admin do you allow the same exact thread to be posted twice? For shame.
good day.
chopper the dog said:
Not to offend you [OP]. But as an admin do you allow the same exact thread to be posted twice? For shame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha
And LoL @JimJam