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[Reward] $125 Challenge to the community: Fix the infamous "audio lag" problem

[Reward] $125 Challenge to the community: Fix the infamous "audio lag" problem
Several HTC devices have a very annoying problem. When you playback audio, periodically (usually once every 5 minutes) you will hear a short "skip" in the audio. The sound has been described as a lag/skip/hiccup/tick/blip. It's all the same problem, though.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=412065
Whatever standard solution you can think of, it has been tried and failed (post to the above thread if you have a new novel suggestion). The problem appears to be deep in the wave device driver or possibly the hardware wave device itself. The problem does not seem to be present in A2DP. If you have skipping with bluetooth headphones, it's probably not related.
It seems to affect (at least), the Diamond, Touch Pro, HD, and XPeria. Possibly more.
There is a work-around (sort of), however. Some (newest?) versions of HTC's Audio Manager application (the TouchFlo player) ON SOME ROMS (not all) uses a non-standard method for playing back audio via DirectShow. These new versions do not skip, or at least do not skip on the regular five minute interval (it has been reported that some files don't play well through the Audio Manager for other unrelated reasons). However, this does not help the dozens of third party audio players.
I have asked HTC to provide documentation on how they did it. They refuse to respond, sending me a form email saying "we cannot support third party applications."
Conduits (makers of PocketPlayer) have told me they will implement the work around if somebody can figure out how to make it work. Their attempts to reverse engineer Audio Manager discovered this non-standard way, but when they wrote a test application, the skip problem was still present. So there is definitely more to the skip than simply sending audio via DirectShow. However, I think they are on the right track. It's just a matter of further reverse engineering Audio Manager until we get it right!
The Challenge!
The first community member to successfully create a very simple program to demonstrate lag-free audio playback (with full source code open sourced so that anybody else can use the method) will receive a pool of money from donators following this thread. I will personally chip in $15 US. I hope others will make commitments too (post below if you will)! When the solution is confirmed to work and can be replicated by third parties, I will send my donation via paypal and will post in this thread where everybody else should send their donation. If you make a commitment, you better donate!! lol. It likely won't be a whole lot of money, but I figure we have to reward the hard work at least a little!
To help you get started, here is the relevant information from the email conversation I had with Conduits where they explained to me what they found while reverse engineering Audio Manager.
We have done extensive tests regarding the HTC audio skipping issue, and have come to the conclusion that it is not something that Conduits can address. After analyzing the HTC Audio Manager program, and several other files (such as HTC’s DirectShow Audio Renderer HTCRenderFlt2.dll and HTCADXRenderer4.dll), we found that both are making some very special system calls into the WaveOut driver.
Here are some technical details for what we have found. First, we don’t think that thread or process priority have anything to do with the problem. Normal audio application use a cycle of ‘waveOut buffers’ that keep the audio output ‘full’ with audio data for the system to pull from and play. Applications use standard waveOutWrite functions to fill these buffers. From Pocket Player’s standpoint, these buffers are always full, and adjusting the priorities won’t affect this. One way to improve audio skips (that has affected the HTC TyTN) was to boost the thread priority of the WaveOut driver by editing a registry value under HKLM\Drivers\Builtin\WaveOut. This approach did not work here. Interestingly enough, these skipping problems occur on desktop PC’s. There, the problem is related to realtime drivers that take “too long” in their processing, which prevents the audio driver from processing the next batch of sound. This happens in Vista with some MacBook drivers.
The Audio Manager uses a different output mechanism from the standard waveOut calls – it uses the DirectShow audio renderer filter, which is another way to send audio. Looking in the internals of how it works, it is using a completely different mechanism. It is using a proprietary waveOutMessage call to open a new message queue, which audio is then “streamed” through.
Pocket Player (and other applications) could possibly resolve this issue by using the HTC Audio Renderer instead of their own waveOut routines, but then we would lose crossfading and other Pocket Player –specific features. We did some initial tests of creating a DirectShow filter graph (complete with their Audio Renderer) but still experienced the skipping, so there must be additional steps.
As a result, Conduits is now regarding this as a device-specific problem that the manufacturer is obligated to fix. Alternatively, if HTC wants to document their special “streaming mode” for their audio output driver, we could look into adapting to that model.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you extract the Wavedev.dll from a ROM, you will see countless debugging messages regarding “MP3 Streams” and the like, indicating an entirely separate audio path for music coming from their software. If need be, we will rewrite our WaveOut output plugin (our output routines use a private plugin architecture just like our other plugin types) that uses the DirectShow output.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
THE REWARD
US $15 - thx1200
Euro 8 (~US $10) - Prewien
US $15 - paulosgsf
US $20 - kennyb123
US $5 - john-vogel
US $15 - jay_zhead
US $10 - wired69
US $15 - Vince2301
US $20 - Liquid211
TOTAL: US $105

its a nice challenge for someone who's smart enough to really do this.. but it shouldnt be our problem in the first place
i'm stuck to this phone till nov. 2010.. so if htc doesnt fix this within a reasonble ammount of time and someone here on xda does, my 10 dollars (approx. 8 euros) is in too

I just bought my HTC and must stay with it till 2010 as well.. im on. $10.00

I really want my Fuze to be my primary music player.
I pledge twenty smackaroos...USD.
Let's get this fixed!
If HTC fixes it for 3rd party software, they don't get my cashola, just my appreciation for taking care of an issue that should have never existed in the first place.

5$ from me! (If it will work also with my HD)

The problem has supposedly been fixed in the latest HTC Diamond ROM revision (2.03.x.3).

AnnihilatorSC said:
The problem has supposedly been fixed in the latest HTC Diamond ROM revision (2.03.x.3).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Supposedly is the word... The issue is annoyingly present still.

Nothing has been fixed in the latest ROM. It's exactly the same as it was before.
I'd happily pay for a solution for this. Put me down for 15$.

I don't buy HTC touch hd till now cos of this problem, I don't understand why HTC still not fix it, or they can't cos it's hardware problem ?

Put me down for $10 (possibly more if I'm not too skint) but ONLY if the fix works with Pocket Player

Count me in for $15
Today the lag annoyed me more than earlier...

Almost to $100...
Thanks everybody! We're almost to $100.
How do we get mods to sticky this sucker? :-D

im gonna start bugging t mobile now for this... gonna head over to the shop

Updating my donation to $15 so we can have an even $100 reward!
Okay everybody, this is a good reward for a hobbiest! Evangelize this post around the WM community (but don't spam). Get the WM blogs to write about. Get exposure. Let's get some brains working on this problem and also keep increasing the pot.

So I do the same!
Updating my donation to $15!
so more than $100,00 for the one who fix the sound bug..

We were up to $125, but xda crashed and the restore from backup knocked off the last posts. :-( I hope people will repost those donations!
Thanks!

I see my donation of $20 is missing. I'm posting again...
Fix this annoying problem and you shall recieve $20 from me.

Liquid211 said:
I see my donation of $20 is missing. I'm posting again...
Fix this annoying problem and you shall recieve $20 from me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Added back! Thanks!

Fixed:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=505928

flinx1 said:
Fixed:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=505928
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I SAW! I just downloaded and will report back if it works with PocketPlayer. So far, people are saying it does. If it's true, I'm happy that HTC has finally acknowledged (let alone fixed) this issue!
EDIT: SCREWED THE OS ON MY SPRINT TOUCH PRO. Won't boot after installing. Please be sure to have a recent backup. Glad I did. I think it may not be CDMA compatible. :-( :-( But if somebody can somehow reverse engineer this sucker and make a CDMA version (or if HTC does), that would be awesome.

Liquid & radio Fm ?

Somewhere in inetrnet some say that there is the hardware for FM radio and requires only an application to make it work? Fact or fantasy?

nemocool said:
Somewhere in inetrnet some say that there is the hardware for FM radio and requires only an application to make it work? Fact or fantasy?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Snapdragon chip has FM in it.
But the Liquid doesn't have FM, dunno if it's disabled or took out (hardware)

So what I read is not a fantasy, I hope someone develops a utility that allows us to use it!

I think its the bluetooth chip that have FM receiver, not the CPU.

Check this out:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=608340
If Bluetooth chip is same then Liquid should have radio and since F1 has radio and F1 and Liquid hardware are pretty much the same, I think there is big possibility Liquid to have radio, which is disabled.
Also I have seen in a dump from HTC Espresso a radio application.

Look at this:
http://www.broadcom.com/products/Bluetooth/Bluetooth-RF-Silicon-and-Software-Solutions/BCM4325

I wonder then why FM radio is disabled and the bluetooth is 2.0 instead of 2.1??

nemocool said:
I wonder then why FM radio is disabled and the bluetooth is 2.0 instead of 2.1??
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Click to collapse
bluetooth might be because android just started supporting bt 2.1 in eclair (who knows if updating the radio will make it work in 2.1 instead of 2.0)... fm radio who knows...

[[ Cold ]] said:
bluetooth might be because android just started supporting bt 2.1 in eclair (who knows if updating the radio will make it work in 2.1 instead of 2.0)... fm radio who knows...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It occurs to me that we are experiencing growth Andorid day to day, who knows if in a not too distant future we will also see an application that runs the FM receiver

Exactly, giving the limited resources Acer has to making Android phones (probably just ramping up), they decided to skip on developing software drivers for the FM radio since they figured most people will use 3G streaming. but I like FM radio since it uses way less power and for those who don't have a data plan to burn through. Hopefully someone is able to write software drivers for the FM radio.

Some notes on this subject:
1.Acer has little to nothing to do to get the FM working, it's broadcom who makes the bluetooth (and thus FM) driver. What Acer has to do is only a GUI, which isn't hard to do
2.Nexus One has the same chip (ok, not the same, but they share the same driver), and doesn't have FM enabled either, that makes me think their might be some problem somewhere. (but the previous posts stating that using FM on a recent smartphone is unusual seems like a good guess.)
3.I've seen linux FM drivers for BCM4325, in Samsung Galaxy ROM (It's the btld daemon)
The thing is that this driver is fully closed source and doesn't use the bluez stack (linux bluetooth stuff), that's perhaps the reason why Acer and Google decided not to use it.
Anyway these chips are used by N1, Samsung Galaxy (I7500), iPhone 3GS, HTC HD2, HTC Touch Pro2, well, all brand new shiny phones, so it's likely someone of these developers will get something at some point

Does have milestone same chip?

Any news on radio fm recevier on liquid??

luca_v3r said:
Does have milestone same chip?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, milestone have TI wl1271, we have Broadcom bcm4325

an fm radio would rock my world...any news

do you say FM radio!!!!!
If yes, is it possible somehow to enable it....because I realize games,mp3 and chatting doesn't mean entertainment for me on the road.....

I've heard bradcomm released data sheets for their liquid bluetooth chip...
any news on this topic, or fm is just too simple ?
and what about terrestrial digital radio (sorry, french..) ?
can it be supported or received at all by our phones ?
may be it need new hardware ?

well, i'm glad to wake up this thread, as i've got some good news
i'm not able to use it myself, so i'll wait for others or the release of the thing in question.
No more waiting, here it is : fm is coming to our liquids
"://android.modaco.com/content/acer-liquid-liquid-modaco-com/320945/radio-fm-for-acer-liquid-finally/"

Dumb newbie question - should I upgrade?

Okay I read, well skimmed the FAQ, thanks to the authors.
I am about to buy a used SPV M2000 ORANGE with sat nav software.
I already have an Orange pays as you go phone and am happy with Orange.
Is there any point in me upgrading the SPV to the latest ROM software etc. or is this really just for enthusiasts who want to tinker (nothing wrong with tinkering if that's your thing).
I really just need a decent phone, sat nav, (important) mp3 player. Dont watch utube or play games, take the odd photo.
Thanks for taking the time to read/reply.

hi and welcome to the forum.
interesting question you have there.
well, upgrading to the latest roms has pros and cons.
pro:
+ nice look
+ latest software can be installed
+ nice ui (many things are easier now)
+ finger friendly
+ new features like a2dp...
+ envy factor
+ stable
+ no loss of data if battery empty
con:
- not as fast as wm2003
- maybe not available in your native language.
- keeping up with latest builds and reading this forum can be addictive
if you hadn't had a blueangel before, you should definetely upgrade it, the minute you unwrap it. then you don't see the slight drop of speed and responsivity. also, while sat nav and mp3 are not even the tip of the iceberg of what the device is capable of, it seems, both those uses are for on the road, meaning you probably don't have time to fumble around with the stylus all the time (pro upgrading).
depending on what sat nav software you plan on using, you will most certainly be able to use a newer version with a newer operating system. bluetooth gps receivers are more compatible with wm6 than before, also the pairing and setting up is easier.
for mp3, im wm2003 you basicly have 2 options: the integrated windows media player (it sucks btw.) or TCPMP. in wm6 you can pick literally from hundreds, which one fits your needs best. S2P is nice for dashboard music playing, TCPMP is better for in pocket playing, because it can be operated using the side buttons. also, as mentioned before, the newer builds offer a2dp, bluetooth stereo output.
let me just describe a short situation here:
stereo bluetooth handsfree
phone (in my case it was the UNI)
bluetooth gps
the phone can connect to both bluetooth devices at once, you can listen to the sat nav commands through your handsfree, while, when it does not talk, listening to music, wireless and if a call comes in, you can still answer it.
this is only possible with a cooked rom, because of a2dp, extreme multitasking , new apps that wouldn't work with wm2003.
one last thing, if i'm getting that right, you are planning on upgrading once and staying with that os. while the newer builds are stable and fast, there is always room for improvements, the development never stops and so there will always be even newer builds coming out, that have more features, are easier to use, faster and have longer battery life. that's why i said this is addictive.
regards
Chef_Tony

Thanks, for reply, I will give upgrade a go.
Hopefully not too complex, I am used to flashing the rom on my satellite box, - easy.
Fingers crossed.

it's a little more complicated than that, especially when done for the first time. but all steps are logical and need to be done just once, then you are good to go, and every possible following upgrade will be a piece of cake, a few simple steps. have a look at the tutorial linked in my signature. it is constantly updated after user input and i believe that makes it pretty clear and understandable. also, you will find all the software needed for the procedure. if something is unclear, please report it to me and either i can add more instructions to the tutorial or explain, what it means.

From my opinion,its not good to go for old one.
i always prefer to buy a new one.
And for upgrade question,it is always possible to get it.
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Bluetooth headset Media Buttons doesnt work

Hi Guys....
I change my HTC Kaiser TYTN II to Android from Winmo rom cooked by shifu
suvil.com/products_freeaudiobt_en.html#product/gallery/free_audio_bt_2.jpg
My Bluetooth headset Suvil works fine to WinMO
Hard SPL 3.29
Radio 1.70.19.09
WinMO rom By shifu
Then i tried Android rom
Not so super froyo by kyle
fresh froyo by dark prince
I cant make my bluetooth headset media buttons to work
I tried to update the:
Hard SPL
3.34
3.56
Radio
1.71.09.01
1.65.21.18 downgrade
Kernels
L1q1d .32/.25
dzo .25
myns .32
still no luck! Cannot use the play/pause rewind/forward button functions
if i click the play/pause twice , it calls the last person on my log
Please help me Masters. TIA!

Thanks for letting me know that. Cheers!

Maybe we can figure it out. It has always bothered me a bit, but never enough to look into the problem. I know that it works fine on some other Android phones. We need to poke around and see if there is any debugging output that can be enabled for Bluetooth. We have all the source code, but sometimes it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
If I recall, the build you mentioned was based on Fresh Froyo, so that's the source code to look at. Also, Scooter1556 made a CyanogenMod buiid of Gingerbread from different sources, and I haven't tried that very much. Can anyone report whether bluetooth controls work there?
I have to confess that I've been using my Tilt2 (HTC Rhodium) recently, with xdandroid. It is very similar to Fresh Froyo, but faster because the device has more memory. The larger screen helps too. But the battery meter is poor like ours was a year ago, so I have a little work ahead of me on that device. Yet I haven't abandoned the Kaiser completely. No promises, but I'll poke around and see if I can figure out how the bluetooth pause, play, next, previous, and volume buttons work in WinMo and why they don't do anything in our Android builds.
BTW: I don't know about the radio, but the best kernel so far is the Scooter1556 kernel with separated cache, especially for NAND installs.

n2rjt said:
Maybe we can figure it out. It has always bothered me a bit, but never enough to look into the problem. I know that it works fine on some other Android phones. We need to poke around and see if there is any debugging output that can be enabled for Bluetooth. We have all the source code, but sometimes it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
If I recall, the build you mentioned was based on Fresh Froyo, so that's the source code to look at. Also, Scooter1556 made a CyanogenMod buiid of Gingerbread from different sources, and I haven't tried that very much. Can anyone report whether bluetooth controls work there?
I have to confess that I've been using my Tilt2 (HTC Rhodium) recently, with xdandroid. It is very similar to Fresh Froyo, but faster because the device has more memory. The larger screen helps too. But the battery meter is poor like ours was a year ago, so I have a little work ahead of me on that device. Yet I haven't abandoned the Kaiser completely. No promises, but I'll poke around and see if I can figure out how the bluetooth pause, play, next, previous, and volume buttons work in WinMo and why they don't do anything in our Android builds.
BTW: I don't know about the radio, but the best kernel so far is the Scooter1556 kernel with separated cache, especially for NAND installs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a diamond user, i hope you can fix the whole pack... Rhodium, Fuse, Diamond, and Topaz

n2rjt said:
Maybe we can figure it out. It has always bothered me a bit, but never enough to look into the problem. I know that it works fine on some other Android phones. We need to poke around and see if there is any debugging output that can be enabled for Bluetooth. We have all the source code, but sometimes it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
If I recall, the build you mentioned was based on Fresh Froyo, so that's the source code to look at. Also, Scooter1556 made a CyanogenMod buiid of Gingerbread from different sources, and I haven't tried that very much. Can anyone report whether bluetooth controls work there?
I have to confess that I've been using my Tilt2 (HTC Rhodium) recently, with xdandroid. It is very similar to Fresh Froyo, but faster because the device has more memory. The larger screen helps too. But the battery meter is poor like ours was a year ago, so I have a little work ahead of me on that device. Yet I haven't abandoned the Kaiser completely. No promises, but I'll poke around and see if I can figure out how the bluetooth pause, play, next, previous, and volume buttons work in WinMo and why they don't do anything in our Android builds.
BTW: I don't know about the radio, but the best kernel so far is the Scooter1556 kernel with separated cache, especially for NAND installs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OMG!!! Some Masters did reply to my post!...Hope im not too late for this!
I have a friend who is using Samsung I5510 built with Froyo 2.2.2
and media buttons on my headset works fine
Well the problem is dont know how to extract the driver or configuration of that ROM and install it to my kaiser. (i dont know as well if android works that way)
Just the forward/next Play/Pause buttons are not working, never mind the Volume control as Bluetooth headset has its own controller
Hope this helps and thanks in advance!!!

ROMs with WORKING Dock Audio

I'm looking for ROMs for the i9000 that have audio working when the phone is placed in the Docking Station. I'm stuck with Android 2.3.6 for so long it's really frustrating, but although I tried several ROMs there is always something not working.
Apparently I must be the only person who uses Audio Dock and TV Out 'cause every single "stable" ROM I tried didn't have this feature working and I use them daily.
It doesn't have to be the latest version of Android - I would just appreciate any links you can give me so I, and other people who use this feature often, have something to choose from. MIUI and others as well. Anything really. ANYTHING! :cyclops:

_LeCiel_ said:
I'm looking for ROMs for the i9000 that have audio working when the phone is placed in the Docking Station. I'm stuck with Android 2.3.6 for so long it's really frustrating, but although I tried several ROMs there is always something not working.
Apparently I must be the only person who uses Audio Dock and TV Out 'cause every single "stable" ROM I tried didn't have this feature working and I use them daily.
It doesn't have to be the latest version of Android - I would just appreciate any links you can give me so I, and other people who use this feature often, have something to choose from. MIUI and others as well. Anything really. ANYTHING! :cyclops:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me know, when you've find one. I have two desktop docks and I will be very happy, when the first (actual) ROM with working audio support is online ...