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I recently bought an ETEN M500 because of the announcement that it would be upgradable to WM2005 and the size of the device. The extra software on the M500 is nothing short of amazing. Never have I seen a pocket pc with so many apps out of the box. I did not have to install SPB Pocket Plus, Pocket Zen or Voice Command. It had similar programs already. And voice dial over bluetooth, WOW, it's about time. So why am I returning to the XDA II. Signal strength. The M500 has horrible reception, I get 4 bars in my house with my XDA II. The M500 couldn't get a signal without me walking outside, not even in the garage with the door open, I had to be outside away from any trees in the open. Yeah, crazy. Maybe they should have spend less time on the apps and focused on building an adequate phone first. None of that matters if you can't use the thing. I also note, even when it showed full bars, the voice of the other person would break in and out. Using my HS820 with the XDA II no one can even tell I am using a headset. Using it with the ETEN, the first thing I heard from everyone was, " what the hell is wrong with your phone". Maybe I just got a defecto, but that would be a reason to keep away as well.
o...is it really a bad machines? How much u paid for it???
I was in the same boat kermit780, but the M500s still a very good device and theres no way in hell I'd go back to a present mda/xda/imate-type product.
This phone was not made with North America in mind (yet) so there are obvious frequency issues- particularly with the 1900mhz range. Eten is on the ball when it comes to issue with this product though. If not the upcoming firmware upgrade, I'm sure the next one will have some sort of radio fix. I'm trying to sell one right now- the primary reason being I needed something with qwerty. The lack of signal as annoying as it was- only secondary because I know it will be a fix to that soon enough.
And no I wouldn't buy a pda2k for that. Its not the size issue- I like going throgh these forums to see whats new out there...not to spend 3+ hours a day searching for a "hack" for something or other. Down right embarassing the amount of money spent on htc phones and the guy standing next to me on the subway with his $200 americanized crap technology Isn't so crap after all because it actually does (did) more than my mda2.
Just my opinion though...M500s a very, very good phone. It will be a great phone once the frequency issue is resolved but doesn't matter if you're not in N American anyway.
For Sale...Cheap. See what real voicedail is like - Plus $20 off for Western Union payment instead of Paypal (avoiding Paypal Final Price Fees so you save...)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5794520477&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MESE:IT&rd=1
Hey guys,
I had my Diamond for a few months now, and with the help and hard work by the great people in this forum I now got it from "unusable" (the way it was when it came out of the box) to "almost working" after flashing many different ROMs, trying tweaks, installing and uninstalling applications and hacks.
The device still is laggish, slow, unresponsive. Many things still suck hard, and it still crashes at least once a day. The ridiculous fact that there is a "reset manager" installed which does a scheduled soft reset every now and then speaks for itself.
To cut this short, I decided to destroy what I believe is the greatest piece of sh** you could ever put a SIM card into, and I want to do it in the most spectacular way possible.
The reasons for destroying it are:
1. It sucks so hard it makes me aggressive, I feel like throwing it on the ground at least once a day when I wait for an important call only to discover that that sob crashed two hours ago or when a phone call is dropped in the middle of a conversation
2. my friends laugh at me because I have the most sophisticated, most expensive cell phone and I am the one having the greatest trouble with it.
3. It HAS to be destroyed so it doesn't fall into someone else's hands and devours someone else's time, money and energy
4. It's fun, isn't it?
I will make a video of the destruction process and post it either here or on Youtube for the amusement of the community.
What I need now are your suggestions on how to do it. Please participate in the poll attached to this thread and let me know what you think.
i wouldnt mind
hi, i wouldnt mind my time and money devoured by this evil diamond of yours =)
really, but elf broke down today, and i hope they will replace it with something awesomer, but i dont have that kind of money to buy myself a new one =P
you can destroy my touch, it has caused me even more trouble than you diamond i think =D
Give it to someone else...
There are even people finding it fantastic...
Or to a chef, that he can continue to make excellent ROMs...
I think, that Dutty broke his Diamond and is looking for another one...
Ok, I go out...
the point
c'mon you guys, this is not about getting rid of the device. We have a working public service here and they collect trash every two weeks.
No, this is about something else. It is about the question what exactly is happening here, why this forum exists and what has become normal in the world of 2008.
It is that a manufacturer has brought a device to the market that can only be used after hours and hours spent on doing what the developers were supposed to do. People like Dutty, who's ROM I am using right now, deserve not only respect for what they are doing, they also deserve to get PAID for it - not by donations, but with cold hard cash from HTC.
I can buy an electric two-speed hammer drill here at the hardware store for the equivalent of 10 US Dollars, it comes with printed instructions, a small bag with tools and replacement brushes, and a plastic carrying box. It is covered by a two year warranty.
On the other hand, I can buy a $500 piece of crap called the Touch Diamond, which is almost unuseable in the state I got it out of the box because of being FAR too slow to be used in an everyday manner. I can then spend HOURS AND DAYS on re-flashing, updating and customizing it with the results of work done by people like Dutty and all the others here who ALSO have spent their time and energy on the same goal, and I end up with a device that only crashed once a day and still is SLOW. Neither the manufacturer of the hardware nor Microsoft who have done the software GIVES A SH**.
I am currently writing a book on this and many other topics, on things that are to be considered somewhere between ripoff and burglary, and that have become widely accepted just because of the lack of alternatives.
Look at the dreaded Iphone, for example. A device that has NOTHING outstanding to offer, a mediocre PDA combined with a mediocre MP3 player, a mediocre 2MP camera, and a mediocre cell phone - all it has is USABILITY.
A technical piece of equipment, be it a cell phone or a hammer drill, has two basic reasons to justify its existence: functionality and usability. A hammer drill has to drill holes, but must also enable the user to handle it appropriately.
The Diamond lacks both of these. It is still full of bugs and flaws, as we all know, and it is hardly usable without the f***ing stylus. The Iphone has both, it is blazing fast AND it is a charm to handle, but it has no ground-breaking features AND it comes with the restrictive policies of Apple Computer that we all know.
Before anybody gets excited, the Iphone is NOT an alternative to the Diamond. My old Nokia 7373 is because it just WORKS.
I have to state an example here, and that's why the Diamond has to die. I will not give it to anyone, even though I would love to support the community, but I think I give a greater gift to society if only ONE person reads this and ends up thinking - wow, what a scam by HTC and M$.
Please participate in the poll ;-)
Why don't you just send it for repair?
What REPAIR?? What should I write as fault description: "SLOW, LAGGISH, FULL OF BUGS"?
Try to send Windows Vista in for repair, maybe you will get back the first error-free operating system in the known universe, for free...
That's the way it SHOULD be, but sadly, the way it IS is different.
I know at least 3 users who don't know this site and are using their stock diamond. They don't have the bottom-edge expectations as you seem to have.
I have them and yes, i find them here. This is another stupid, boring thread about something YOU COULD HAVE KNOWN from the start.
These are silly devices which cannot replace a PC, just phone and fun. I have seriously NO ISSUES AT ALL so please don't start spamming this **** again. I think that is stupid, we had enough of those people right at the beginning.
You buy it, YOU pay 500 dollar, YOU go into the marketing.
HTC makes money of it, makes a living of people working there. That's how market works. Stop complaining after you buy something. Then just don't buy it. You always have options to try out first.
Like the idea...
But you forgot to put in the option of putting it in acid and let it slowly dissolve into notingness...
That would get my vote!
abel7777 said:
What REPAIR?? What should I write as fault description: "SLOW, LAGGISH, FULL OF BUGS"?
Try to send Windows Vista in for repair, maybe you will get back the first error-free operating system in the known universe, for free...
That's the way it SHOULD be, but sadly, the way it IS is different.
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3 months ago you were saying something completely different:
"I love the phone, really the first usable device without keyboard that relies on dialling via virtual keyboard. Still have the Samsung Armani thing here waiting to go on Ebay..."
It is really the peer pressure is not it? And the destruction show is mainly for them? Hardly anybody of the xda-developers members would make a good audience.
I felt disappointed with the Diamond when I got it in June this year and yes, the feeling of rage came to me especially when the GPS was unable to get a fix.
Since then I learnt how to tweak the phone and today I can say that if it was misplaced I would get the same phone again.
Perhaps your phone really developed some hardware problem that demonstrates itself in lockups and sluggishness. I had my phone last week sitting next to iphone and all comparable applications such as the google maps were running at the same speed.
And I do not need to restart it unless I do a lot of browsing with Opera, which is still in beta and the latest version 29/10 seems to have fixed even that.
Spamming, Riel, is what you do. Nobody cares about how many people you know that are willing to live with an overpriced device that doesn't stand up to what it promises. There are millions of organisms that eat feces and are happy with it, did you know that?
I could NOT have known from the start about any of the negative experiences I had to make while trying to use the Touch Diamond. When you buy a machine, like a coffee maker, you expect that it will make coffee. That is the implication of the fact that the coffee maker exists and is being sold as one.
I have bought a very expensive cell phone, implicating that I can make and receive phone calls and send SMS, and it does not even accomplish these basic tasks without showing bugs and errors. Another implicit expectation is that a device sold in 2008 would be at least as fast and responsive as my 2001 Ericsson T39m, at least as far as telephony and SMS are concerned.
I wouldn't complain if the Diamond needed 1-2 seconds to start a complex application like Google Maps, but it needs 1-2 seconds to switch from my email inbox to an already running Opera, and 3 seconds to take a picture after pressing the shutter button, and yes, it crashes during and after phone calls quite frequently.
Yes, I used other WM phones like the Samsung Omnia or even the Xperia (had the chance to play with it for half a day) and the ALL had these problems. Unfortunately I had already bought the Diamond...
I am not whining or complaining about the loss of money. If I was, I would sell the Diamond on Ebay or somewhere else instead of destroying it.
Riel, I have many devices here that simply do not function properly, with manufacturers not caring about it and saying that I have to live with it, including even a CAR.
What you wrote is just an example for how many people today have stopped thinking about what they can expect for their money. I would love to sell you a hammer drill that takes 30 minutes for drilling a hole, quits unexpectedly from time to time for no obvious reason, and weighs 20 pounds. People like YOU would be quite happy with it as long as it looks fancy, has a blue display on top of it and makes sounds like a device from Star Trek.
catdog said:
3 months ago you were saying something completely different:
"I love the phone, really the first usable device without keyboard that relies on dialling via virtual keyboard. Still have the Samsung Armani thing here waiting to go on Ebay..."
It is really the peer pressure is not it? And the destruction show is mainly for them? Hardly anybody of the xda-developers members would make a good audience.
Yes, that's what I wrote, and it is still true. The Diamond is the first device I had in my hands that has no numeric keyboard AND allows dialling with one finger without major problems. True.
That was BEFORE I started using it beyond the capabilities of an ordinary cell phone, and BEFORE it started hanging or crashing in the middle of a call.
I wrote that I was impressed by the way I could dial numbers with the Diamond compared to the Armani, and that is still true as well.
No honey, it is not peer pressure. I don't mind running around with a pink Nokia everybody makes fun of, I did this for half a year, everybody was laughing, I didn't care. The fact is that I missed calls from people because of the phone not ringing and had to explain to them that my $500 high-tech phone is unable to play a ringtone when someone calls me. If somebody finds that funny, they are not making fun of me, but of HTC and Microsoft who sell crap like that for money. I can only make fun of myself because I was stupid enough to buy it, and this experience will keep me from buying any Windows Mobile device before I had the chance to play with WM7 for at least a week.
And come on, some people really need to lighten up a little. This is supposed to be a fun thread, it is about creating a funny video, if you don't want to read it press ALT-F4 and do something else.
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Chris1974 said:
Like the idea...
But you forgot to put in the option of putting it in acid and let it slowly dissolve into notingness...
That would get my vote!
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Very good idea, but I don't think there is any acid that will dissolve the plastic housing. What we would get would be a device where some internal parts would be eaten up by acid, but I don't think very much would be visible on the outside.
Apart from that, it is hard to get concentrated sulfuric acid due to the danger it imposes.
abel7777 said:
Spamming, Riel, is what you do. Nobody cares about how many people you know that are willing to live with an overpriced device that doesn't stand up to what it promises. There are millions of organisms that eat feces and are happy with it, did you know that?
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So why are you putting US up with your expectations? It's obvouis that the phone is good enough for the masses.
I could NOT have known from the start about any of the negative experiences I had to make while trying to use the Touch Diamond. When you buy a machine, like a coffee maker, you expect that it will make coffee. That is the implication of the fact that the coffee maker exists and is being sold as one.
I have bought a very expensive cell phone, implicating that I can make and receive phone calls and send SMS, and it does not even accomplish these basic tasks without showing bugs and errors. Another implicit expectation is that a device sold in 2008 would be at least as fast and responsive as my 2001 Ericsson T39m, at least as far as telephony and SMS are concerned.
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It does more then I want to. Don't know what your problem is, but I call, mail, sms, synchronise, navigate, play games etc. No it does not make coffee. And, yes, you had the option of trying it for a while.
I wouldn't complain if the Diamond needed 1-2 seconds to start a complex application like Google Maps, but it needs 1-2 seconds to switch from my email inbox to an already running Opera, and 3 seconds to take a picture after pressing the shutter button, and yes, it crashes during and after phone calls quite frequently.
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Just edit the registry. When you are not pations, you can set those delays to zero. The average user has no problems with it.
Yes, I used other WM phones like the Samsung Omnia or even the Xperia (had the chance to play with it for half a day) and the ALL had these problems. Unfortunately I had already bought the Diamond... I am not whining or complaining about the loss of money. If I was, I would sell the Diamond on Ebay or somewhere else instead of destroying it.
Riel, I have many devices here that simply do not function properly, with manufacturers not caring about it and saying that I have to live with it, including even a CAR.
What you wrote is just an example for how many people today have stopped thinking about what they can expect for their money. I would love to sell you a hammer drill that takes 30 minutes for drilling a hole, quits unexpectedly from time to time for no obvious reason, and weighs 20 pounds. People like YOU would be quite happy with it as long as it looks fancy, has a blue display on top of it and makes sounds like a device from Star Trek.
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Simple.
I think the perfect phone would cost 10.000 dollars, if you know what I mean.
Riel said:
So why are you putting US up with your expectations? It's obvouis that the phone is good enough for the masses.
It does more then I want to. Don't know what your problem is, but I call, mail, sms, synchronise, navigate, play games etc. No it does not make coffee. And, yes, you had the option of trying it for a while.
Just edit the registry. When you are not pations, you can set those delays to zero. The average user has no problems with it.
Simple.
I think the perfect phone would cost 10.000 dollars, if you know what I mean.
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Well, Riel, I did not have the option of trying it for a while as you wrote... At first, it looks - and feels - great. You play around with all the features, discover the G-sensor, try a little GPS with Google Maps - great. It's like getting a new car with new features that the old one didn't have - electric windows, electric seats, more power, everything smells new - great.
When after a couple of weeks you notice a rattle behind the glove box you start noticing things that you didn't see - or didn't want to see - when it was new.
I don't see me here putting the blame on anyone on this board. I put the blame on the manufacturer who didn't do his job, be it for the hardware or the software part. Why should I edit the registry in my unpaid time to fix a camera delay that I am not responsible for?
You buy a new car, you notice that the air conditioner doesn't work. Would you start tweaking this yourself? Just edit the registry, put in another orifice, flush the system, and maybe that helps?
You are right, the perfect phone would cost a lot of money. Maybe $10000 as you write. Maybe a little less. If it would exist, I would happily spend like $2500 on it. But I don't think it would have to be so expensive - the Iphone is a good start, but with all of its implicit (no flash, no cut-and-paste, too big, poor resolution...) and synthetic (restrictive Apple policies) limitations it's no alternative.
I did not intend to create a discussion like this, I wanted to let all of you participate in the execution of my phone, that's what the poll is for. I am SURE that very many people from this board will watch the video once it's there. I am not torturing lab mice here, it's just a phone so no need to get excited.
If you really want to destroy such a nice device id say go with boiling water and then shoot the hell out of it :>
I love my diamond with duttys ROM, I was disappointed for a while after i bought it how slow it is (1st ones that came out). but since I had tweaked my old wizard here this didnt feel so hard to do the same for this.
my first Diamond got stolen in Bulgaria and I had insurance choice to take money or new phone, I gone for new Diamond. it had new rom and was pretty fast without any tweaks
abel7777 said:
That was BEFORE I started using it beyond the capabilities of an ordinary cell phone, and BEFORE it started hanging or crashing in the middle of a call.
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Definitively a hardware issue. I had a couple of phones like that and they were both fixed in warranty by the manufacturer's service centre.
The problem is that it is hard to distinguish between software issues and hardware problems on a device like Diamond unless you had a working phone in your hand.
Switching between applications is instant, just tried now from inbox to opera running under 1 sec.
Oh and with the Camera lag- it is there on purpose, it is meant to stabilize the picture after pressing the shutter. I have the shutter delay off and it takes the photo within 1/2 sec.
you can double press the camera button to take a instant picture. It has a Auto Focus, which is why it takes a couple of seconds. Length of time does depend on light conditions. more light = quicker to take picture
Okay I did search and I have seen it posted BOTH ways I am not a big fan of hacked cracked or Warez apps right now I am running a rom that come bundled with tomtom6 I then installed tomtom7 from the post here but when I went to download the freeby map and voices I got a weird error so I popped over to tomtom.com and my version doesn't seem to be legal before I yank it out can someone tell me once and for all if I am legal ?
I suppose the blunt answer is that if a) you haven't paid TomTom money for the software, or b) the software wasn't included in an official ROM on your device for 'trial' purposes; then you are outside terms of the licence - in simple terms, not legal.
There is however reasonable grounds for debate given that TomTom seem to be forgetting the PDA community to ever more significant levels. That's particularly out of order when you consider that it was really PDA users that put TomTom on the map (no pun intended) and really helped the consumer satellite navigation system market flourish into the extremely lucrative enterprise it now is.
The situation we're in now is that we've bank-rolled a good portion of TomTom's discreet product development, and indeed commercial success; and it seems our party-invites are being forgotten...
At the end of the day the product development and channel support for PDA users is shrinking more and more. The only real way to have a chance (and it's not guaranteed) of owning up-to-date (and therefore really useful) TomTom sat nav for your PDA is if you happen to buy one of only a handful of devices which fall inside the remit of the deal TomTom did with HTC. The next kick in the nuts is when you find out that even though you own a perfectly capable device, manufactured by the company who are in bed with TomTom, you still don't automatically join the party because the chances are you got your Diamond/Kaiser/Whatever from your Telco; and re-brands of device and software don't fall inside the same deal.
So, Mr A with his ageing but still capable iPaq can't buy a recent version of Navigator and a map for it because PDA software isn't out in the channel. And also Mr B, who owns a shiny-new Kaiser, but may have got it in the form of a Vaio III from T-Mobile, or a Tilt from those lovely folks over the pond, also can't get the software; again even though it is in existence, simply because they got their HTC manufactured (and the key point here is that HTC still made their £££, it was just T-Mobile/AT&T/Orange/whoever signing the cheque rather than Mr B himself) from a Telco because it worked out to be £0-£100 for the device rather than £300-500 to buy it 'SIM free'. The fact that TomTom are slowly and quietly dropping their PDA customers winds me up enough, but the fact a good number of HTC customers are excluded from the ever-shrinking party simply because their Telco subsidised part of the purchase price of the device makes it even worse.
So, relatively up-to-date versions of TomTom navigator for PDAs do exist, as do relatively up-to-date maps and extras (traffic/safety camera subscriptions). The only problem is that even if you want to, it's near impossible to spend your money on them.
Does this make TomTom a bunch of clowns for still putting some resource into development but at the same time slamming the door on a large number of loyal users who would still quite happily help them recoup or even profit on those costs, absolutely. Should they be surprised if some people find other ways around those obstacles when pound-notes fail, probably not. Does that make it ethical - it's debatable (but for the sake of this great site's legal-footing, that debate can't really take place here. ...Does it make it legal, alas no.
So, for the black-and-white legal position on the matter, read the first paragraph again. Anything beyond that I think is up to the individual, who has to decide whether they'll risk/be prepared for/accept any potential consequences of other actions which fall outside of TomTom's frankly ridiculous position.
I can't help wondering what the blinkered-idiots at TomTom are thinking on this issue. As far as I can see they currently have product available, and there's no real reason why that can't continue for the forseeable future given that most of the development cost will still be incurred if they only shipped discreet devices (ie, it can't cost that much extra to make sure there's a pretty recent PDA version living alongside their discreet products); BUT, they've more or less completely closed every route to market. Which Mickey Mouse school of business did these chumps go to? Yes, I see the point that they stand to make more money by selling you a Go! 940 Live than a software-only product for your PDA; but I for one certainly won't go running out to buy a 940 (or its descendant) if all possibility of my running an up-to-date version on my PDA ceases. I think I'll be feeling alienated enough to give my money to Navman, Garmin or any of the others first. Likewise they could, and should have enough confidence in their own discreet products to see that there are USPs differentiating both markets - some folks just one a gadget to do sat nav, and nothing else, they want it to be integrated and simple, with more focus on certain aspects of specification. On the other hand some folks will always have the need for a PDA, and would prefer not to have a rucksack full of electronics to carry with us - OK, we might not get all the benefits of a discreet sat nav unit; but if it's that way or the highway (again, no pun intended, I'm just one damn funny guy ), why exclude our money from your coffers.
Anyway, in short; you're probably a little outside of licensing and copyright law; but at the moment it's probably fair to say that TomTom have left us out in the cold to some degree, so you should just feel the force/go with your heart/<insert other suitable cliché here>...
Rant over.
Love and hugs (to everyone apart from TomTom's marketeers),
Rob.
Write to TomTom and let the boss know what you think
FactionOne said:
TomTom seem to be forgetting the PDA community to ever more significant levels.
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I know what you mean and (after several unsatifying phonecalls to the company) I recently sent their big cheese (at HQ in the Netherlands) a letter about it. Sometimes buying a dedicated TomTom device just isn't an answer - for example I use my TyTN II for navigation on my bicycle (using a TyTN II handlebar mount) and on foot alot of the time so there's no way I'm going to carry around a 12 volt battery just to power a dedicated, comparitively bulky, TomTom device.
I suggest you write to them as well, The addresses and manager/supervisor names and positions are all on their website. I'd be happy with TomTom Navigator 6 if it weren't for the fact the map I have (which is the latest available) is very outdated and it doesn't support map share or any other similar way of getting any sort of update. I refuse to pay for a product thats not officially supported (eg buying a map for an illegal version of TTN7 on a Kaiser) so I'm just making do with TTN 6 and my purchased compatible map, the rest of my money is staying in my wallet.
You are correct in that it is a glaring example of missed marketing opportunities. Perhaps given their tremendous growth in recent times, they are getting to big for their boots and think they can shape the market to suit their ideal, to a greater extent than they really can? They need to watch out or people will go with the competition.
I beleive their reasoning is that they're fed up of piracy. A bit silly really considering they're making piracy the only option.
Absolutely agree with everything posted here.
I have paid for TomTom Nav 6, the most up-to-date maps (early 2007), extra voices, Speed Camera & Traffic subscriptions - and have now been told it's no longer supported (they will not be issuing new maps).
I have raised support calls & spoken to them on the phone - they agree this is now obsolete and they have no plans to release TomTom 7 in this country (UK). They even said if you have TomTom 7 in the UK it's an illegal copy!
I want my money back. I was told there would be 4 map updates every year - there was only 1 update after I bought the software.
Having said all that, I am struggling to find a viable alternative. I need to traffic to make it worthwhile (as I do the same trips most days, but need traffic warnings due to motorway snarl-ups).
I'm v.impressed with the trial of Navigon MN7 - but there seems to be no way of getting TMC traffic on the Kaiser in the UK (outstanding support call with Navigon as well now...).
If anyone finds an alternative, please let me know.
I really don't understand TomTom's position on this. They have a market leading product and now choose to pull out of the market - at exactly the point you would expect the PDA solution to supercede the traditional separate unit. In my company we looking to stop using 250 TomTom units and repace them with an integrated PDA solution - so TomTom will (eventually) lose out big-style. They seem to be shooting themselves in the foot.
CoPilot Live 7 is one alternative that was bundled with some Kaisers
Ramsfan_Jim said:
If anyone finds an alternative, please let me know.
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CoPilot Live 7 works on the Kaiser, indeed some UK providers bundled the two together. I have no personal experience of the product so I don't know how up to date their maps are but CoPilot maps are provided by a different company to TomToms maps (Navteq vs TeleAtlas respectively) and fewer countries/regions are covered at the moment compared to TomTom, I'm sure a search here and on google will yield lots of results.
As for getting your money back, see if you can find some documentation showing they said there'd be 4 maps a year, then talk to the C.A.B. or your Trading Standards Office - good luck with that
I think you also have lots of good points that'd be best dealt with via a letter or Fax to the company boss. If they REALLY want to get out of that section of the market due to piracy issues, it's throwing out the baby with the bath water. Instead they should be looking at improving security and making the product less easy to steal - perhaps by using activation for BOTH the software AND maps.
FactionOne said:
Anyway, in short; you're probably a little outside of licensing and copyright law; but at the moment it's probably fair to say that TomTom have left us out in the cold to some degree, so you should just feel the force/go with your heart/<insert other suitable cliché here>...
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Thanks for the clarification and for soothing my conscience...
Flying Kiwi said:
CoPilot Live 7 works on the Kaiser, indeed some UK providers bundled the two together. I have no personal experience of the product so I don't know how up to date their maps are but CoPilot maps are provided by a different company to TomToms maps (Navteq vs TeleAtlas respectively) and fewer countries/regions are covered at the moment compared to TomTom, I'm sure a search here and on google will yield lots of results.
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I have spoken to ALK regarding switching to CoPilot, but was told their maps are also over 18 months old, and they will not be releasing updates for CoPilot 7. They could not give me a date for CoPilot 8, but if they do not issue map updates, then it will be exactly the same problem as TomTom i.e. It will become obsolete.
Ramsfan_Jim said:
I have spoken to ALK regarding switching to CoPilot, but was told their maps are also over 18 months old,
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I could only dream of having a TomTom map thats age is in months rather than years!
they will not be releasing updates for CoPilot 7.
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Maybe not program updates but the map would still be newer to start with (although in fairness I've not compared the two in the areas where TomToms maps have things wrong).
They could not give me a date for CoPilot 8, but if they do not issue map updates, then it will be exactly the same problem as TomTom i.e. It will become obsolete.
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Most importantly, they've also not said they'll be releasing future versions only bundled with devices. This means if you're keen for the absolute latest and greatest maps and you're willing to pay, they'll still be providing suitable products - not something that can be said of TomTom.
I opened up the Market this morning, as I do most monings before I even wash my face ..... and was impressed with the following application.
https://www.wisepilot.com
I've used it once already, and although it got slightly confused with what I requested, I wanted to visit E10 and it took me to E15 ...... but it looks promising!
What do you think?
gah... looks nice I guess but subscription based.... ick. Better pricing than telenav I guess...
Telenav is actually the same price of $99/year at the moment, and you can get a 30-day trial, as opposed to Wisepilot's 5-day trial. Telenav also has an option for a 4-year subscription for $250. Wisepilot's trial didn't seem to work for me here in Phoenix, and I notice others have had problems in some states (and others have not). I'll mess with it again some time this weekend, and hopefully will be able to figure it out. I'm definitely going to give the 30-day trial of Telenav a shot though.
I'd personally prefer a GPS app that had a one-time fee, however, even if it didn't have every fancy feature that Telenav and others might. Why pay $100+ a year when I could just get a stand-alone GPS for the same price, or less, and not pay monthly fees?
-John
Same old crap. None of them will be getting one thin dime from me until there is no longer the subscription nonsense and the data is stored on my card.
I think that it was the RIM POS phones that lacked expandable storage that led to these stupid subscription GPS services.
I love how everyone wants everything for free
I tried it, was ok but you cant select addresses from your contacts as a destination so, uninstall for me.
And the monthly pricing is rather lame as well. I already pay $30 a month for the data service just to even be able to access the gps maps, then have to pay what they want on top of it. Yeah, you might as well just get a stand alone navigator, would be cheaper anyway.
The maps app has just enough for what i need right now.
Mikey1022 said:
I love how everyone wants everything for free
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You didn't read carefully......we don't want it free. We're willing to pay. We're *not* willing to pay on a subscription basis.
Two things that the user market is yearning for in a GPS app with realtime nav:
1. One time fee that's less than the cost of a standalone GPS unit
2. Standalone maps that aren't dependent on having a network connection
My wife got so frustrated on a trip this week with the lack of proper navigation apps for the G1 that rather than paying the subscription fee for Telenav she went and bought a Garmin Nuvi for $100 that's widescreen and speaks the street names.
Personally I'm finding it more and more likely I'm going to jump over to a Garmin M60 NuviPhone when they launch soon as I'm equally frustrated with the navigation functions on the G1.
The only thing holding me back is the hope that somehow I'll be happy enough with AndNav (which I have donated to!).....they finally ordered (and received!) most of the server hardware they needed to support a dedicated US server for routing. I'll give it an honest shot and see how that goes.
Im not trying to come off as a know-it-all.
Don't you have to buy the maps for stand-alone GPS units?
It depends, I believe I had to pay for my Garmin updates, but not not when I had my TomTom. Although I could be mistaken (short memory).
CBowley said:
It depends, I believe I had to pay for my Garmin updates, but not not when I had my TomTom. Although I could be mistaken (short memory).
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TomTom is the same way. I think maps are $40/per update which means you can update twice a year for the price of Telenav and still have change leftover. That is if you don't need trafic (which I think there's a free app for that on G1) or millions of poi (and tomtom does have some poi, just not too many)
I just saw that MicroCenter has refurbed TomTom One for $79. I'm so frustrated with G1 situation that I might jump on that deal.
lbcoder said:
Same old crap. None of them will be getting one thin dime from me until there is no longer the subscription nonsense and the data is stored on my card.
I think that it was the RIM POS phones that lacked expandable storage that led to these stupid subscription GPS services.
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Get your wallet out Copilot Live 8 is here! Maps are saved to the SD card.. no data usage if you don't want it to.
If you ask me, $250 for four years is not a bad price. For everything that TeleNav does (gas, traffic, weather, etc etc) you'd be dropping around that (sometimes more) on a device that does all it does. And usually a GPS unit isn't going to last for the average consumer four years. Either they will break it somehow or the new and improved will come out, they will want it and they will drop another $200+ on it.
Price is completely justified for the features it has. If you want a simple turn-by-turn GPS with no bells and whistles, then no, it isn't for you.
The only thing I can't understand is why we can't use the google maps, it has the information and has real-time location and shows our location on route. Even it were just as simple as turn by turn it should be able to be done I would think. BUT, what do I know.
wesbalmer said:
The only thing I can't understand is why we can't use the google maps, it has the information and has real-time location and shows our location on route. Even it were just as simple as turn by turn it should be able to be done I would think. BUT, what do I know.
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It has to do with map licensing.
It definitely *could be done*, it is just against the terms of use.
You see, google doesn't produce the maps, somebody else does, and this somebody else doesn't want turn-by-turn navigation being given away for free since they charge a premium for their turn-by-turn customers (i.e. tomtom or whatever).
Mikey1022 said:
I love how everyone wants everything for free
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Thats not it at all, the subscription model usually leads to lazy design which leads to you being screwed when you drive out of the data plans range, no data link? NO GPS! Sick of that crap, why the hell call it a GPS if its really a local network capable navigation device.
Get CoPilot, least it works all the time.
salamandar said:
Thats not it at all, the subscription model usually leads to lazy design which leads to you being screwed when you drive out of the data plans range, no data link? NO GPS! Sick of that crap, why the hell call it a GPS if its really a local network capable navigation device.
Get CoPilot, least it works all the time.
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Do you know for sure if this is what happens with TeleNav? How do you know that it won't continue to work (the map at least) if you lose data? It may just use the data for the traffic/weather/etc info.
tekkitan said:
Do you know for sure if this is what happens with TeleNav? How do you know that it won't continue to work (the map at least) if you lose data? It may just use the data for the traffic/weather/etc info.
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It definitely doesn't keep working. If you lose network, you lose nav. Think of it like this; if it doesn't have the data, how can it generate a route from the data? The ONLY way that a nav program can generate a route without network is if the data is stored locally, and this takes up a lot of space; copilot for north america takes up 1 GB on the sdcard. Telenav installs fully to internal memory and is called telenav for a reason... TELE = remote + NAV = navigation, i.e. it runs off their servers and not your phone.
How come andnav2 doesnt get much attention?
I think its great.
Oops. Double postings.
Not quite a super hero, by day I am your average, 3rd tier tech support representative for a certain (pretty damn easy to figure out if you’re not a complete idiot) cell phone company. Throughout the rest of my life, I’m an angry computer geek, lashing out at just about everyone (hey, why discriminate?) that gets in my way.
So I’ve got a few things rolling around in my mind about these mobile devices and I’m looking for input at the end of this mess, as usual. Remember though, Confucius says, “There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.”
Here’s a bit of a rundown of the modern American cell phone. You’ll probably find a bit on cell phone plans/contracts in here, too. To be honest, I normally just ramble on until something makes enough sense to post, so I don’t know what all will be listed.
I personally believe the last “innovation” that should have happened for the cell phone is the clock. For about 75% of the people I talk to each day, that’s enough. See I’m all about customer service and the reason I’m not in sales is because the same people I talk to daily on the phone are the ones I would deter from buying anything other than a Jitterbug. They can’t use it. When I’m trying to explain to someone how to backup their information and they don’t know what the “Start” button is on their computer, they have no reason owning any phone that could be considered a PDA. Personally, I would like a netbook that made phone calls. I don’t want something Zoolander-ish, because I have fat fingers and expect too much from a device I can type on.
However, my “vision” will never be. There will always be idiots with too much money for their own good, but at least I’ll always have a job somewhere.
Now that I’ve got that out of the way, here’s a list of some current “features” of cell phones and the good and bad about them.
QWERTY Keyboards – These are great when people actually use them. I’ll never understand what the point is when they’re still typing in gibberish. “OMG!! U r so fun e!”
SMS Messages – A great concept ruined by greed. Why do we only have 160 characters to use in a text message? I read somewhere that it came about because it was the amount of characters as one line of text on a typewriter. That could be wrong, but real question should be, “Why do we still only have 160 characters to use in a text message?” Greed. SMS is beyond cheap for the carriers, but they will charge you 10 and 20 cents per message sent and received.
MMS Messages – Limited depending on the carrier to as little as 300kb. I tell customers each day to use email instead, because it’s not limited and it is more reliable. Ideally, they would make this invisible to the user, and just have the phones email each other. Realistically, we charge another 10 to 20 cents per message, for something that is easier to do than getting an STD from a hooker.
E911 (GPS) – Now included in every phone you can buy, because it’s required by law. I’m sure the FCC was worried about your safety when they made carriers track every cell phone within 100 meters… Riiiight. But I’m doing my best not to rant on the government so I’ll leave it at that. Fascists.
Touch Screens – “Why can’t I keep it my pocket with my keys?” Yes, I’ve heard this, and yes, they were serious. Negative for normal people? Touch Screen capabilities are great, and cheaper to make now than ever before. But the manufacturer will charge more for this just because they can. Don’t worry, you’ll get your 3D fix soon too.
USB/Other Serial Ports – These are great for people that want to physically connect their devices while syncing, but normally these ports are on the bottom of the phone, and people setting their phones in damp cup holders cause water damage to the device. Would it be harder to put this on the side? No, but how would they make money that way?
Minutes – Local, Long Distance, Roaming, International, International Roaming, Roaming on a Partner Network, Daytime, Nighttime, Weekend, Holiday, Inter-carrier, Intra-carrier, Circle… No matter what they tell you, no matter what they tell their employees, they make this confusing on purpose. How else are the carriers going to charge hundreds per month?
Internet/Data/Email/etc. – Having access to the web is a great convenience. Now I can watch that Jib Jab movie. Oh wait, that’s Flash, that doesn’t work in most of the phones… Oh, wait! I can watch Netflix! Oh, no I can’t. Well at least I can pay more for the web on my phone than I pay for it at home and get half the functionality…
Contracts – I don’t necessarily disagree with contracts, but part of why many people don’t treat their devices like they are expensive pieces of equipment is because they don’t have to pay for them. If more people had to pay $200-$500 for their flashy cell phone they may actually take care of the damn thing, which leads me to...
Insurance – There is no reason the carrier should be involved in this. Say we didn’t have insurance, and you had to get it, and any tech support, from the cell phone manufacturer. I’m not exactly a nice guy to people who call in that have bought one phone, seven years ago, but have managed to ***** to enough people to get them replaced by the carrier. The carrier should stay out of the hardware game, and there should be no such thing as “locks” on the devices. I don’t have to buy a new computer (or even a modem) when I switch ISPs. Oh ****, I hope Charter doesn’t read that…
Most of these things could be fixed if people just refused to pay for crappy service. I don’t like supporting sweatshops, so I don’t shop at Wal-Mart. It is your choice… You don’t need a cell phone. Anyways, that’s enough out of me. Like I said up there, I want your input, because I like to hear what you guys have to say.
Thanks again for being bored enough to read all of that,
Drunk
There are two types of people in this world, consumers, and well people who actually pay attention. . .
If people payed attention now adays cellphones would be way different lol.
Qwerty keyboards - I agree with your comment. Perhaps the gibberish typing still exists because of the 160 character limit for SMS? Or perhaps they're just acting like crazed 12 year olds...
MMS - I never understood why anyone would use MMS over email. The size limit means that anything you send will just not be of any high quality. You might as well not send it.
I/O ports - I don't agree with moving these ports to the side. I've had a 2 devices with side I/O ports and it was quite awkward. Besides, having it on the bottom allows 3rd parties to easily make docks. Perhaps the smarter solution would be to not put your device into a damp cup holder?
Data - It's inevitable that mobile data is going to be more expensive than your home broadband. But prices have been coming down in the past years. And if you tether your device to your laptop, you have the full web experience.
I actually see the benefit of tethering growing as we bring on new technologies, but they're going to charge more for tethering if they allow it at all, which only validates my complaint even more.
I wanted to add that technology should work for us, not the other way around. Personally, I would avoid the cupholder but it should be on the manufacturer to move this, for phones and docks alike.
People buying complex devices for basic needs, and being surprised when they don't work seamlessly, is definitely a major problem and happens accross a wide variety of sectors.
Just because you can afford it doesn't mean you should have it
I agree that having the port at the bottom makes more sense, astheticall and in terms of docs & accessories. I guess I've never placed my phone in a wet cupholder.
I have notice that when i'm in a country like India, china etc, a single call is cheaper than a us dollar... Is it because of population differences ?, Canada only has a population of 34 million. In USA you have cheap ass data plan ( unlimited data) while in Canada its 30 dollars for only 500 mb...
$30 for unlimited isn't exactly cheap, although definitely better than in Canada. Overall pricing in the US is pretty bad, especially on voice and texting (seriously, texting should be free if you have a data plan).