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Hello,
I bought my Kaiser a month ago. I'm interested in 3D graphic development for the graphic chip (Qualcomm MSM7200). For the last two days I've been looking around for something (SDKs, drivers, ...) for it. What I've found so far is that Qualcomm claims the chip to be rather powerful:
http://www.cdmatech.com/products/q3dimension.jsp
and based on OpenGL ES.
The other PDF ( http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf ) says, that the MSM7200 is built on ATI Imageon architecture and should support hardware accelerated OpenGL ES 1.0 Common as well as Direct3D Mobile. Yet, I am unable to find any MSM7200 and/or Imageon SDKs.
I've written a small app. to test Direct3D on this device but all I could get was a software renderer :-( I'm not familiar with OpenGL (ES) enough to test it.
So my question is: Which way should I go? I suspect I need some windows mobile drivers for hardware-accelerated Direct3D Mobile but was unable to find any.
For OpenGL ES this seems to be even more difficult, while I don't know which SDK to use (I couldn't find any supporting MSM7200).
ANY responses are very welcome.
I don't know how you can program for OpenGL ES, but for Direct3D Mobile you have an SDK for Visual Studio (i think you already know this...)
I'm complaining about HTC's implementation too:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339173
I just hope more people start complaining so HTC has to do something.
OK, at least I see I'm not alone.
So, as I pointed out in my previous post, MSM7200 should use enhanced Imageon architecture (I guess they refer to it as to Imageon+). Anyone feels like give it a shot with Imageon drivers/SDK/API? I would but I was unable to find something Imageon-development related on the web. Perhaps if you could point me somewhere.
is that any help ?
http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/80-V8905-1_A_Programming_OpenGLES_in_BREW.pdf
Unfortunately no. I took a look at the BREW already but I think it's not supported on Windows Mobile.
I'd like to say I've got some good news but I don't. I looked closer to my Kaiser's D3D configuration and I found that it only has one D3D driver. It's htc_d3dm.dll and it's locally hooked (means it is not accessing hardware) and it's basically just Microsoft D3D Reference Driver (software renderer). So it looks like HTC didn't put much effort into enabling D3D on Kaiser.
I will look futher into this matter and keep you informed.
wow. Hard to think that neither HTC nor Qualcomm would have compiled a d3dm hadware driver by launchtime, yet alone by now. Qualcomm seems much more interested in promoting their closed BREW platform than enabling "rival" technologies...
Aren't there any other msm7200 based wm6 machines out there ? maybe something like Polaris would have a correct d3dm implementation...
This is the list of MSM7200 based devices:
http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdamaster&posted=1&cpu=a7200
But I think that drivers from any other MSM7xxx based or even MSM6xxx based device could work. I doubt they have different 3D graphics architecture. If you can get any Qualcomm's Windows Mobile driver, let me know for sure. I would try it.
BTW: If you want to check your (or any other) device for D3D drivers see registry values:
HKLM/System/D3DM/Drivers/LocalHook
and
HKLM/System/D3DM/Drivers/RemoteHook
LocalHook should list locally hooked drivers (software renderers but they might be optimised for certain CPU).
RemoteHook should list remotely hooked drivers (drivers that use hardware in some special way - e.g. hardware accelerated graphics).
I've just found that new i-mate ultimate 9502 will be Qualcomm MSM7200 based as well. We'll see what will i-mate come with when it comes to D3D drivers.
maybe a stupid idea, but why not trying to add htc_d3dm.dll in the remote hook registry key ?
I got that same stupid idea myself and tried it. It didn't work.
well, at least it doesn't harm either
i felt the kaiser maybe a bit snappier after the reg edit and a soft reset, but that must be placebo effect ^.^
edit : not placebo, in fact with the remote hooked dll, cleartype is bugged/disabled so the redraw really is a bit faster.
I don't know about cleartype but D3D app. failed to initialize at all.
I use attached application to test D3D and to get some info out of it. It is altered example for MSDN.
You can try it if you want to and see what it does with default driver set to RemoteHook
there's also a HtcDXRender.dll down in \windows, so this mess sounds more of a work in progress than a total overlook...
That's probably just some DirectX support and not Direct3D.
I've written a small app. that detects and lists ALL D3D drivers available. Just to be sure we don't overlook something.
I pretty sure omikrOn is correct about the reference drivers "all software". Well that goes for the rom that came with my p4550. I know it took a few rom updates for hardware support to showup on my p3600, which turned out to be so picky on what modes you use the initialize d3d. Hope this isnt the case for the p4550!
Anyway I looking forward to hardware support. this thing just might be a good gaming plateform...
Unable to solve anything I contacted HTC support with this issue today. I will keep you informed about their reaction.
correct me if I'm wrong, but dont the Hermes have the Imageon in them? (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=305940), could we not rip that driver out?
Also bumped into these on my travels.....
No ati chip
Correct me if i am wrong but the tytn2 doesn't have the ati imageon chip, so no use to search for those drivers.
great news that seems awesome
http://www.htcclassaction.org/driverprogress.php#update_20080717_1 (MOD EDIT: LINK CORRECTED)
""Now we have all that out of the way, here is the actual CAB file(http://www.htcclassaction.org/download/HTC-CA-Kaiser-Drivers.cab ) . Just install it on your device. Here is a RAR file (http://www.htcclassaction.org/download/Lights.rar) containing a sample D3D application - indeed the same as shown in the video - you can use to see if the drivers worked! Unrar it on your PC, copy the EXE files to your device, and run it on your device. It will show a few popups telling you if hardware is used or not.""
""These drivers require a Kaiser (TyTN II) and a ROM based on the official HTC WM 6.1 update!. Exactly which ROMs are compatible is not yet known. We have tested this on multiple Kaisers, but all of them were running Dutty's Diamond V1 ROM. It is extremely unlikely that these files will work out-of-the-box on any other MSM7x00 based device (at this time).""
i'm just flashing and check this out
They work on Garmin 1.2. Bigggg difference running the Lights program
Just thought i'd add the rest of the info:
"OK folks, here it is! A few hours later than projected, but still: OpenGL ES and D3D drivers (non-fullscreen) for the kaiser!"
"Before continuing, we would like to stress yet again, because there seems to be a little confusion here and there: these drivers are not finished, this is a work-in-progress. This is not a fix-all solution!. Currently the only things that are supported are hardware-accelerated D3D and OpenGL ES. These drivers are merely a release you can 'play' with, and prove it can be done. How many real-world applications will work with it remains to be seen, and we expect the users in the community will gather a list of these rather quickly."
"To elaborate further, these drivers do not accelerate video playback. These drivers do not accelerate normal Windows operation. Some of you have asked if we have abandoned accelerated 2D. We have not, it may still come. The simple fact is, that in this particular case, it was easier to work with the 3D drivers first"
yes but is a big big start
now we can keep hopping for better days with our kaisers
FINALLY!
I hope we get 2D acceleration as well. 3d is great, but 2D is better for me since I'm using office apps on my kaiser the majority of the time.
Ahh so it wasn't HTC who released these drivers like I originally thought. My original F**k you to HTC still stands.
Props to the person(s) who spent many hours getting this working.
Nice to see some actual progress, honestly I had pretty much given up hope. HTC isn't putting these out though, so don't thank their sorry asses.
Link in post 1 didnt work for me, the one below should lead to the page on the classaction site
http://www.htcclassaction.org/driverprogress.php#update_20080717_1
rcm_rx7 said:
Nice to see some actual progress, honestly I had pretty much given up hope. HTC isn't putting these out though, so don't thank their sorry asses.
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Click to collapse
Agreed !!! HTC had nothing to do with this driver project, it was all done by an indiviudual wiz , thanks should go there,HTC's behavior in this driver drama has been little but nothing more then talk with empty words. But indeed I got some hope again
sheptard said:
I hope we get 2D acceleration as well. 3d is great, but 2D is better for me since I'm using office apps on my kaiser the majority of the time.
I hope HTC continues with the development of these drivers and doesn't just say 'well, you complained about 3d accel long enough, here's something resembling a driver' and leave it at that.
If someone from HTC is reading this, Thank you very much for finally getting these out the door, and please don't stop I think 2D accel would be a great christmas present
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As said in previous post HTC let us down totaly on the driver issue, vague promises, but no delivery, then againm why make the Kaiser better if that may have negative sale impact on the new Daimond..
I can tell HTC one thing: the Kaiser was my last HTC, not because of the Kaiser, I still love it; but due to their attitude in this driver struggle.. They shown they have no regards whatsoever to the customer after they bought their product,
Well.... for me... as long as i got a better camera in my device.... i am happy... as it is the only thing i am unhappy with my device..
----------------
Now playing: Hitomi Harada - Eternal Feather
via FoxyTunes
can someone upload the cab so we that are on our kaisers can download!
austinsnyc said:
can someone upload the cab so we that are on our kaisers can download!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There you go
Link to the cab file
we need a sticky thread that people post what there results are with the beta drivers with different ROM's right now i tried on my rom that is in my sig (april 29 dutty's), and i had no go, i dont know if before directdraw worked in video tests, but i benchmarked a video and it worked very slow though 39% vs 80-95% in raw and other setttings
also for those who can benchmark it would be nice to see which ROM gives the most performace and bug free?
also i would like to know if its possible to do reg hack/import of the paths that diamond based roms have, to those that were pre diamond based or even pre full 6.1 roms?
im not 100% sure but remember that those new roms didnt have drivers but did have paths/links to what could be drivers, with a simple cab older ROM's could work with the driver as well?
I'm sorry to interupt but this driver is not finished & doesnt make any change to kaiser graphic performance. i think there was an old thread similar with this that has been closed long time ago. dont get mad. i already say sorry
hang.tuah said:
I'm sorry to interupt but this driver is not finished & doesnt make any change to kaiser graphic performance. i think there was an old thread similar with this that has been closed long time ago. dont get mad. i already say sorry
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Click to collapse
That's not entirely true, it doesn't make any changes to the kaiser's 2D graphic performance, but that is because it's 3D graphics drivers. The video demonstrates that there is 3G acceleration being enabled by these drivers, though it still won't fix what ails the kaiser...but it's a step in the right direction.
skatdawg said:
That's not entirely true, it doesn't make any changes to the kaiser's 2D graphic performance, but that is because it's 3D graphics drivers. The video demonstrates that there is 3G acceleration being enabled by these drivers, though it still won't fix what ails the kaiser...but it's a step in the right direction.
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Click to collapse
OIC. thanks skat. so the conclusion we still have to wait or just buy Raphael
skatdawg said:
That's not entirely true, it doesn't make any changes to the kaiser's 2D graphic performance, but that is because it's 3D graphics drivers. The video demonstrates that there is 3G acceleration being enabled by these drivers, though it still won't fix what ails the kaiser...but it's a step in the right direction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, When I first tested the light.exe bench, It was laagy and hardware was not detected, now it rocks
Glbenchmark is still not working but I think there is hope for 3D games and may be touchflo 3D
confirmed
1. run lights.exe with no drivers
- driver provider: Microsoft
- hardware rasterization: false
- hardware T&L: false
- using system memory
- around 1 fps
2. installed drivers, soft reste
3. run lights.exe again
- driver provider: n/a
- hardware rasterization: true
- hardware T&L: true
- using video memory
- around 15 fps
one bug - could be driver could be lights.exe could be rom (L26_KDV9): leaving lights.exe runing until the screen turns off freezes your device. I didn't test w/o the driver.
dani31 said:
1. run lights.exe with no drivers
- driver provider: Microsoft
- hardware rasterization: false
- hardware T&L: false
- using system memory
- around 1 fps
2. installed drivers, soft reste
3. run lights.exe again
- driver provider: n/a
- hardware rasterization: true
- hardware T&L: true
- using video memory
- around 15 fps
one bug - could be driver could be lights.exe could be rom (L26_KDV9): leaving lights.exe runing until the screen turns off freezes your device. I didn't test w/o the driver.
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Click to collapse
u r right. just tried it. wonderful app by Omikr0n. but is there any benefit for other apps if we using this driver? just curious whether this driver better cooked in or just as seperate cab.
As see, Htc S730 is very slow in display, because lack of video drivers .
You can compare the experience with running your Windows computer in "safe mode" with the default "VGA driver".
HTCClassAction.org have not been sitting on their hands after the drama about the Kaiser / TyTn II / Tilt's lack of video drivers shook out. Though HTC is not releasing a full set of true drivers, the hackers at HTCClassAction are! They're still basically in “proof-of-concept” mode right now, but the concept, it's proven: full video hardware acceleration is working on a TyTN II and Wings
details at:
http://www.htcclassaction.org/
ROM WM6.1 needed to run this new driver
Geat news! Hoping there will be a 2d/video accelerated version...
I tried installing the CAB using my HTC S730 original WM6.0 ROM ( Yes, I know... was just a silly try)
Result is: "Could not initialize Direct3D" when running the test application.
Is there a way to "uninstall" this driver
Abviously WM6.1 cooked ROM is needed .
Update
I tried registry editing/key deleting, but it seems it is not so simple to partially uninstall: probably some of the original dll are overwritten and I need original ones (or have to hard reset to get non accelerated d3d back... I think...)
This is wonderful news! I'd almost given up my hopes on a proper driver, now i can see the light in the tunnel again! awesome!
From htcclassaction.org:
Update July 17, 2008:
We have D3D running on the TyTN II, check out the Driver progress page for the specifics.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The S730 is slow? How's that? S730 may not have hw acceleration but it is one of the fastest smartphones and the graphics is way faster then on Kaiser. (Try running TT5/6 on both devices side by side and you will se the much smoother graphics of S730)
I am happy they are putting out more power, but is it only for video or will it optimize the phone overall?
And I would like it to work on the stock phone since not too many cooked 6.1's are 100% yet (although I dont keep up with the threads on them.)
Only D3D for now (but...)
10332007 said:
I am happy they are putting out more power, but is it only for video or will it optimize the phone overall?
And I would like it to work on the stock phone since not too many cooked 6.1's are 100% yet (although I dont keep up with the threads on them.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Currently on htcclassaction.org they say it's only a D3D improvement, but they say also that is only a WIP version, and 2D, video and "overall" improvements are work in progress too....
rvanzo said:
Currently on htcclassaction.org they say it's only a D3D improvement, but they say also that is only a WIP version, and 2D, video and "overall" improvements are work in progress too....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats what I figured from the site, hopefully they will finish it up and release it for the stock phone.
I am glad someone is working on it. Its been how long since HTC said they were going to do "something" about it lol.
Have anybody tried installing those drivers on any 6.1 WM on s730 ? Worked ? Better ? Worse ? I know that there is no official rom but maybe works on Alcaline or other. Are there ROMs with this driver integrated ?
I am looking for the package on their site but can't find the one for Wings. Anyone got any luck?
Kaiser is similar to Wings. Kaiser has touchscreen which isn`t included in Wings. Maybe works on 6.1 ? I don`t know? If works then i will install new rom else 6.0 is also good...
Actually I am using CCWAV's 6.5 ROM. I don't know what could a driver do any more to my mobile, it is working smoothly as it is.
Hi All, i have a question concerining the latest release of the d3d drivers
seeing as fullscreen is fully supported is there a way that tomtom and igo can be run in window mode, posibly taking advantage of the d3d drivers ?
would be awesome to have tt7 with full-speed and AA to smooth those HORRIBLE edges
anyway just wanted to know if possible and how etc,
greetzt to all
Probably rewrite DDI as a wrapper to OpenGL.. Otherwise, rewrite DDI to take more advantage of the available ATI hardware, but DDI sucks even on any PC with quite readily available drivers. Volunteers?
Apple seriously did the right thing by moving from ancient QuickDraw --> DisplayPostscript --> *** --> OpenGL as their core graphics API. DDI is basically still QuickDraw. (QuickDraw II Forever!).
So, either we somehow rip the 2D drivers from a Toshiba G810 rom, if a dump exists, because it looks really fast from those YouTube videos -- if it's not faked demo pre-release rom magic again like the Sedna.
Or, get the TT/iGo people to give us D3D/OGL versions. Maybe WM7 will fix all of this.. if we will ever get it, since it's also an entire OS upgrade, CE5 --> CE6 which resembles win98 to winNT upgrade.
hello,
I am the owner of an HTC Touch Diamond device (UK) with original
-ROM version: 1.37.405.1 WWE,
-Radio version: 1.00.25.03,
-Protocol version 52.26a.25.09U
I have been trying to compile the native C++ Direct3D samples from WM5 and WM6 SDKs, but I am finding problems. Specifically, I am trying to check the accelerated HW drivers, by running these samples. If I have understood correctly, D3DM runs over OpenGL ES, in such devices. The managed wrapper example provided in http://www.koushikdutta.com/search/label/Managed OpenGL ES, works perfectly, which means that 3D is supported by my device and ROM versions.
Initially, the problem was with the CreateDevice() D3DM function, but with the help of 'omikr0n' found in http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=359534&page=201, this function returns now successfully. I have to note that the lights.exe sample, by 'omikr0n', runs flawlessly.
After making those changes in every sample application, the result that I get is a transparent screen and after that the application freezes. In more detail, in the first sample, where a colored screen has to appear, I get nothing, even though the application is running. I run it in Debugging mode, but I cannot pinpoint where the problem comes from, as all functions are executed successfully.
Can you please help me resolve this issue, by informing me if there is a problem with my code or the ROM versions of my device. If it is the code, can you explain what has to change? Also, do the new official ROMs by HTC include better drivers? I would be glad, If I could avoid upgrading ROM, but if this is the case, I will have to do it.
Many thanks to all 3D enthusiasts.
Have you seen this thread?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=415873
Maybe better to ask there.
hello,
In the thread that you mentioned, the author uses OpenGL ES instead of Direct3D Mobile and Managed (C#) instead of Native (C++) code. Although it is a breakthrough, these are not the requirements of my project.
I am looking for the specific programming parameters. which D3DM structures need in order to produce a visual result on the screen. After making the WM5/6 samples work, I can continue with more specific developmental issues.
Thanks
if it's under Managed Direct3D then ms stoped that platform to only focus on XDN
everybody who were using it on pc all moved to the new ms horse or do pure opengl from .net
hello Rudegar,
The samples are writen in C++, but the problem is in execution time because they do not produce the expected result and freeze. I believe that there have been several implementations (eg. lights.exe from omikr0n), which use specific parameters that allow to run successfully. I am trying to find, which are those parameters.
What is XDN that you mentioned?
I'm sorry, but I probably won't be too much of a help here. Lights.exe application is written in .NET (managed code) in D3DM. AFAIK D3DM is quite different for managed and unmanaged applications.
sorry ment xna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_XNA