So Apple is suing the pants off of Samsung in Europe, in Australia and possibly everywhere else. That’s because it claims that (1) Samsung stole the look and technology of the iPhone for the highly successful Galaxy S II Android phones, and (2) Samsung stole the look and technology of the iPad for the rising tablet stars, the Galaxy Tab 10.1/8.1.
But that doesn’t stop the two from being the best of friends when it comes to other business matters.
Utilizing data from “teardown” research firm iSuppli, The Economist reports that the iPhone 4 is 26 percent Samsung. At least in terms of components. According to iSuppli’s reverse engineering data, Samsung supplies three key components for the iPhone 4: the flash memory ($26), DRAM memory ($11.60), and the applications processor ($8.08).
Apple doesn’t do any of its manufacturing, leaving the dirty work to its Asian partners. Manufacturers in fact earn just a pittance compared to what Apple earns, which is an estimated $368 per phone (!). Apparently, that money is tribute money for Apple’s design, marketing and engineering prowess.
So despite the lawsuits and legal wranglings, Apple needs Samsung, and vice versa.
The question now is who needs who even more?
Because the iPhone has captured over 19 percent of the global market, Apple is a lucrative partner for Samsung. On the other hand, few companies can deliver quality components in volume the way Samsung can, so Apple will be hard pressed to find another supplier who can fit the bill the way Samsung does.
Besides, Samsung’s components business unit is separate from its consumer electronics units. So they probably couldn’t care less about what the other is up to… unless the CEO steps in.
You should qualify that with "for now." Once all these chip manufacturers like VIA (via HTC ) and Samsung are done playing with Apple's lawsuit frenzy, I'd fully expect repercussions (especially if it hurts their stock price). Don't expect a board of directors to sit idly by while Apple (their customer) tries to crush their corporate value.
The tech world is pretty incestuous. I bet most tech execs don't actually know where their supplies are coming from half the time.
During WWII The US sold lots of Ford cars to Germany....at the same time when they were fighting on the western front.
$8?!! Cheap!
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As if HTC doesn't have enough to deal with concerning Carrier IQ and the boot unlocker, now a pending court ruling in favor of Apple could stop importation of HTC phones into the U.S. Basically, Apple's complaint is that the Android operating system "borrows" from Apple patents.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57...nned-from-the-u.s.-faq/?tag=mncol;mlt_related
The article doesn't address the possibility of HTC developing its own operating system (long rumored and mentioned in this forum in the past day or so), but the proposal makes sense (no pun intended) in light of the possible legal ruling.
Htc has been around longer than apple in the phone business and holds plenty patents that apple can't touch. Apple still has Carrier IQ installed on some of their devices even though they claim they are not using their services. Android is open source and does not infringe on apples OS. Let them cry all they want, they couldn't even touch Samsung.
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Ok it is a simple fact that Apple is Very Very sue happy right now (Started when Jobs was Diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer as far as I have noticed). I mean hell they just got done trying to bury Samsung because "Apple sues Samsung again for copying the iPhone's design, this time in South Korea" etc. Apple came out with a statement after Loosing saying well Samsung could go around our patents by just making their phones look different and making them have a more cluttered UI. The general idea here is that rather than dealing with the changing markets Apple wants to have the market cornered and have No competition so they can charge an insane amount of money for their devices, at least that is how it looks to me with all their stupid lawsuits they have going on right now. Next they will start suing TV Companies and Cable Box Manufacturers because the Cable Boxes look too much like the Apple TV boxes. I mean really Apple needs to come to grips and just Deal with it.
Samsung had requested this voluntary trial in September 2011, in order to oppose Apple’s ongoing efforts to reduce consumer choice and innovation in the tablet market through their excessive legal claims and arguments. Apple has insisted that the three Samsung tablet products infringe several features of Apple’s design right, such as 'slightly rounded corners,' 'a flat transparent surface without any ornamentation,' and 'a thin profile.'
"However, the High Court dismissed Apple’s arguments by referring to approximately 50 examples of prior art, or designs that were previously created or patented, from before 2004. These include the Knight Ridder (1994), the Ozolin (2004), and HP’s TC1000 (2003). The court found numerous Apple design features to lack originality, and numerous identical design features to have been visible in a wide range of earlier tablet designs from before 2004."
[Source]
www.androidcentral.com/british-high...nizable-differences-between-ipad-and-galaxy-t
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That's good. All this patent trolling is getting ridiculous, and it ain't just Apple either.
But the details there, it just goes to show how vague they can make these claims. There really needs to be some kind of reform of patent laws, particularly in this part of the industry which is only just finding its feet. Everybody seems to want to exclusively own this new big thing. Sure the iPad was the first system to take the tablet idea, merge it with a smartphone OS and capacitive touch screen etc. and use it in such a way but it most definitely wasn't the first attempt at a tablet/slate computer.
This really isn't what Steve Jobs would have wanted at all. He always celebrated his competitors and the drive they gave his company to do better. If people just crushed any competitors which came up in their industry, power users would still be using BlackBerry phones...
I'm glad there is a court that sees through Apples BS.
I know trade dress is easier to defeat then bs patents but it is a nice start
I hope that this time Apple won't ask for Samsungs technology one month later...
http://www.lockergnome.com/news/2012/07/10/corporations-into-causes/
Either way, patent disputes have been going on for as long as patent law has existed. Corporations buy companies explicitly for the patents they posses, because patents are the new product. If you develop a new way of overcoming a technological hurdle, you’re almost guaranteed a buyout these days if you have the foresight to patent your idea. The rights to that idea are far more valuable than the products themselves (for some reason) thanks to the way the current patent system exists.
Apple has been called out for achieving an injunction against the Galaxy Nexus. This isn’t the first time Apple has taken legal action to protect its patents, and the reasoning behind these actions can be a much deeper rabbit hole than it might appear on the surface.
For starters, if you don’t defend your patent in one case, you may lose any legal grounds you have to defend it in another. It’s not like other companies aren’t suing to protect their own properties. Apple just happens to be the one that received an injunction.
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Pretty interesting article.
I can't see how they managed to get the injunction though. I could understand with the Galaxy S1 or the Galaxy Ace (they pretty much copied the whole design there), or even the Tab 10.1, but the Nexus barely even resembles an iPhone. But this is why Google bought Motorola - did anybody think Motorola had anything going for them, really? They just own a tonne of patents Google want. Sammy have been constantly trying to sue Apple at the same time, this has been going on for ages, just for some stupid reason they got an injunction here.
I found this to be a very interesting read so I thought I'd share it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/haydnsh...5-comes-early-and-with-a-hint-of-desperation/
Samsung has announced a preview of the Galaxy S5 on February 24th at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. Sort of. Invites have gone out to the press for what Samsung is describing as Unpacked, Episode 1 with a large 5 emblazoned on the invite (twice). All a big tease. Might it backfire?
The announcement has been picked up around the world. A Galaxy launch is a big event. But there is a hint that this time round Samsung is desperate to get a new device out there and to use the attendant publicity to drive sales in a very tight market. Samsung needs this more than we do.
In the middle of last year, not long after the S4 launch I suggested Samsung had peaked in smartphones. The evidence since then has been pretty compelling. Samsung’s sales seem to have stalled more dramatically than Apple’s.
In June 2013 Samsung gave guidance on record profits. By Q4 Bloomberg reported the first drop in profits in 9 quarters.
Samsung Electronics Co. (005930) posted its first profit decline in nine quarters as new Apple Inc. (AAPL) iPhones won over high-end handset buyers and models from cheaper Chinese producers lured budget customers.
It’s clear that the Samsung pricing cascade is running out of steam. You have to go back some years, to the general consumer electronics industry and in particular TVs to see this cascade at work. Remember it?
Launch at a high price/high margin to soak the early adopters, discount to acquire market share; and when that stops working, launch a new generation product. Soon after the S4 was available the price differential in different parts of the world exceeded $300 as they played this cascade out in different markets.
Now Samsung needs sales, not least to support its vast manufacturing capacity. According to Daewo Securities, “Samsung shipped 13 million units of its S4 in the fourth quarter, down from 17 million in the previous three months.” That’s a reduction of 4 million units in the buying season.
Because of its pricing model, Samsung is also in danger of ceding high margin sales to Apple more generally.
There will be novelty in the S5 to try to win margins back, however. Leaks in January suggest Samsung will sport a new UI in the S5, possible powered by Google NOW. The two companies have been working more closely lately and more product integration would be no surprise. Samsung has also been working hard on its branding, despite being caught out manipulating social media reviews of competitors. I covered some of that brand investment here on Forbes.
Yet it is in software and services integration that Samsung still lags. Software has been named a new national priority for Korea, a move reported by The New Yorker, recently. In the software and services arena, in promoting service revenue in place of hardware margins, Samsung is a decade behind Apple. The strain of being hardware first is beginning to tell.
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Samsung's suffering the same thing Apple is - Western smartphone markets are approaching saturation which is causing a drop in margins as manufacturers turn to emerging markets where selling price and margin are lower. In quarterly revenue, market share, and margin growth Samsung still outperformed all other Android device manufacturers based on last quarter's earnings. Their revenue was actually up but their earning's were depressed because of lower margins in mobile devices. LG (who gets over half their mobile revenue from dumb phones) and the other Chinese (physically based and selling market) manufacturers showed YOY gains but everyone else is dying including Sony, HTC, and Motorola.
So if articles like you quoted predicting Samsung's death and desperation are true I hope you like Apple and iOS. Because if changing market conditions are going to kill Samsung then they'll be the last to go behind every other brand discussed on XDA.
BarryH_GEG said:
Samsung's suffering the same thing Apple is - Western smartphone markets are approaching saturation which is causing a drop in margins as manufacturers turn to emerging markets where selling price and margin are lower. In quarterly revenue, market share, and margin growth Samsung still outperformed all other Android device manufacturers based on last quarter's earnings. Their revenue was actually up but their earning's were depressed because of lower margins in mobile devices. LG (who gets over half their mobile revenue from dumb phones) and the other Chinese (physically based and selling market) manufacturers showed YOY gains but everyone else is dying including Sony, HTC, and Motorola.
So if articles like you quoted predicting Samsung's death and desperation are true I hope you like Apple and iOS. Because if changing market conditions are going to kill Samsung then they'll be the last to go behind every other brand discussed on XDA.
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Quite an intelligent response. I didn't perceive the article as pointing towards the death of Samsung. Samsung obviously isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I'd rather be without a phone than having an Apple product.
Delakit said:
Quite an intelligent response. I didn't perceive the article as pointing towards the death of Samsung. Samsung obviously isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I'd rather be without a phone than having an Apple product.
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The is the problem you going to get In an ecosystem with so many competition. Every manufacturer costs raise to compete with each other and in the end becomes a zero sum game for them. Just like sony needing to exit their PC biz, some manufacturers who can't play well in smartphone world will need to exit too.
Only winner here is Google and in some way Apple owning their own ecosystems, Consumers definitely benefit the most with the amount of choices of phones out there to tinker with
Phones are overpriced anyway. I've never seen the actual costs but it's silly.
I think if anyone's in danger Apple are in trouble. They are still overpricing. I know quite a few who have jumped ship from Apple.
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Samsung is being force to compete now, the likes of LG has making them a little bit more competitive, which is a good thing since before Samsung was the Android king and the King of smart phone besting out Apple and Window phones. Since the LG G2 was introduce, Samsung customer have been looking toward LG direction, I am one of them and I am glad I picked the G2 over the S4. Let the two giant battle it out, the winner will be the customer.
Ok, not exactly note 4 specific, but involves it in an Overall business sense.
I just read where samsung has agreed to provide like 80% of the processors next year for Apple products.
These two have been spending billions and billions in court, are mortal enemies on the outside and mock each other daily, and this Is obviously not the first time, but Samsung is once again helping them behind the scenes .
It Amazes me Samsung shows an all out war with them to the public all the while supplying parts to the very products they are trying to beat.
Yeah I get the business side and it makes them money, but it's just in principle crazy.
''Im going to try and destroy your market share and sales, but sure I will make your products better"
?!?!
As a continuation of an earlier topic where I said Samsung's business was not doing well, here is some info from their last quarter :
- Samsung reported operating profits of 7.2 trillion won (approx. $7.1 billion USD), a 24 percent drop from the same quarter last year. It also missed analyst estimates of $8 billion USD.
Going by shipments of its smartphones, Samsung reported that is shipped 78 million units in the second quarter, down from the 87.5 million it shipped in the first quarter
sprintuser1977 said:
Ok, not exactly note 4 specific, but involves it in an Overall business sense.
I just read where samsung has agreed to provide like 80% of the processors next year for Apple products.
These two have been spending billions and billions in court, are mortal enemies on the outside and mock each other daily, and this Is obviously not the first time, but Samsung is once again helping them behind the scenes .
It Amazes me Samsung shows an all out war with them to the public all the while supplying parts to the very products they are trying to beat.
Yeah I get the business side and it makes them money, but it's just in principle crazy.
''Im going to try and destroy your market share and sales, but sure I will make your products better"
?!?!
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Money talks, BS walk!
More than likely, Samsung Mobile and Samsung's chip production are two separate 'entities', so the chip manufacturer isn't competing with Apple directly. Their budget, projections, etc are all separately motivated, so a sale is a sale and revenue is revenue.
We all hear the stories of Samsung losing market share across the board, I used to defend them to the naysayers until I purchased this latest flagship tablet of theirs, I have never seen anything so under supported and locked down so developers can't do anything with it. For the first time in years I will not upgrade my phone to another Samsung, buy one in China and its even worse with the embedded spyware installed in the bootloader and modem, replace either component or the kernel and you have a wifi boat anchor.
lorinkundert said:
We all hear the stories of Samsung losing market share across the board, I used to defend them to the naysayers until I purchased this latest flagship tablet of theirs, I have never seen anything so under supported and locked down so developers can't do anything with it. For the first time in years I will not upgrade my phone to another Samsung, buy one in China and its even worse with the embedded spyware installed in the bootloader and modem, replace either component or the kernel and you have a wifi boat anchor.
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Having seen the rumours about the S6 - I would say they have had a turnaround in mindset and we are looking forward to an amazing future. The Tab S is going to get Lollipop in the next month, which is a massive improvement over Kitkat.
The less bloated vision for the future will mean quicker updates also.
Under supported and locked down, how did you come to that conclusion?
Firstly Samsung are good enough to leave the boot loader unlocked which basically opens the door for development and saves a massive headache.
Irrespective of knox which is a manufacturers prerogative to include. It doesn't hinder development, it's just Samsung's mechanism of knowing if the device has been tampered with.
Already there are custom kernels, roms and recoveries and plenty going on regarding such things.
Where's the lack of support unless you refer to Samsung themselves?
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I am a hard core Android advocate but like you, I have tended to steer clear of Samsung lately. I think Samsung has become the "Apple" of the Android market. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing per se. If you want a device that just works and you don't do much tinkering or customizing then its great for you. However, if you are all in on Android as a platform and don't want to feel tethered to a particular ecosystem then Samsung may not be your best choice.
They put in a number of measures to ensure you can't customize your device too much (aside from installing a new launcher). But I don't want all of the bloatware and want to have the option to uninstall it and save the space on my device without having to go through the heart stopping process of rooting my device and hoping I don't eff it up.
I think people have started to learn this as well which has resulted in Samsung losing a step. That and the fact that the other manufacturers (LG, Moto, etc) have caught up and actually making better devices IMO. Samsung can't just rely on their brand name anymore like they could a couple of years ago.
If Samsung does have this change in mindset regarding their Android devices that's great but I'll believe it when I see it and it may be too little too late. The damage may be done and the best they could hope for is stop the leaky bucket of customers leaving but not really gain much market share.
Of course all of this is my own personal opinion and no one asked me directly for my opinion so please make your own decisions and do your own research. There's no replacement for making your own informed decision based on your own specific needs.
They still sell a huge number of phones, and a huge number of other components. Might possibly be making OLED screens for iphones soon.
In any case they had a year of less than expected profits rather than losses so I dont expect to see them in decline really.
In decline? Hardly
First off don't be so U.S. Centric. Apple is #1 in market share in the US but it is the only game in town if you want iOS. Samsung, while "only" #2 is still by far the biggest Android supplier. But all that is only in the US. Looking globally, Samsung destroys #2 Apple by two to one. Android destroys iOS by 84.4% to 11.7%. A lot of this is because outside the US the market for flagship phones is a lot smaller and the low end to mid range rules the market.
See: http://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-os-market-share.jsp
Here is another one that shows by country market share for the US and the EU countries:
https://gigaom.com/2015/02/04/android-and-ios-are-nearly-tied-for-u-s-smartphone-market-share/
Once again outside the US Android destroys iOS in market share. My theory is the whole carrier subsidized phone phenomenon we have here in the US disguises the actual cost of a phone so you really have to do your math to figure out how much you are actually paying. In other countries where they have to pay up front for the phone, cost matters. I'm guessing those folks are not generally buying the flagship Android phones but going for more affordable options. Apple doesn't really compete at the low end.
So Samsung is well positioned to compete globally. So the idea that its "in decline" isn't really true. Also remember that Samsung is a major supplier of components to other manufacturers including Apple.
ratman6161 said:
First off don't be so U.S. Centric. Apple is #1 in market share in the US but it is the only game in town if you want iOS. Samsung, while "only" #2 is still by far the biggest Android supplier. But all that is only in the US. Looking globally, Samsung destroys #2 Apple by two to one. Android destroys iOS by 84.4% to 11.7%. A lot of this is because outside the US the market for flagship phones is a lot smaller and the low end to mid range rules the market.
See: http://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-os-market-share.jsp
Here is another one that shows by country market share for the US and the EU countries:
https://gigaom.com/2015/02/04/android-and-ios-are-nearly-tied-for-u-s-smartphone-market-share/
Once again outside the US Android destroys iOS in market share. My theory is the whole carrier subsidized phone phenomenon we have here in the US disguises the actual cost of a phone so you really have to do your math to figure out how much you are actually paying. In other countries where they have to pay up front for the phone, cost matters. I'm guessing those folks are not generally buying the flagship Android phones but going for more affordable options. Apple doesn't really compete at the low end.
So Samsung is well positioned to compete globally. So the idea that its "in decline" isn't really true. Also remember that Samsung is a major supplier of components to other manufacturers including Apple.
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No they are not. Samsung is losing grounds in both China and India, two of the biggest country (population wise) in the world. Samsung is steadily losing sales on mid to low end phones, which is where Android reign supremacy. It's hard for Samsung to compete when their competitors are willing to sell their phones at just 1.8% profit margin (Xiaomi - 1.7%. Samsung - 18.7%. Apple - 28.7 %).
snapper.fishes said:
No they are not. Samsung is losing grounds in both China and India, two of the biggest country (population wise) in the world. Samsung is steadily losing sales on mid to low end phones, which is where Android reign supremacy. It's hard for Samsung to compete when their competitors are willing to sell their phones at just 1.8% profit margin (Xiaomi - 1.7%. Samsung - 18.7%. Apple - 28.7 %).
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If you have any business education at all, you would know that any company selling at a 1.7% margin won't be around very long. I wouldn't worry about those type of companies taking anything away from Samsung. If anything, their sub-par product will only drive these "new" low-end to mid-tier users to splurge for a better phone on their next purchase.
Samsung isn't going anywhere, and they are more diversified than most companies. That's why they can sell at an 18.7% margin.. because you need a minimum of ~23% overall company margin to maintain growth.
ingenious247 said:
If you have any business education at all, you would know that any company selling at a 1.7% margin won't be around very long. I wouldn't worry about those type of companies taking anything away from Samsung. If anything, their sub-par product will only drive these "new" low-end to mid-tier users to splurge for a better phone on their next purchase.
Samsung isn't going anywhere, and they are more diversified than most companies. That's why they can sell at an 18.7% margin.. because you need a minimum of ~23% overall company margin to maintain growth.
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I am very well aware that Xiaomi's low profit strategy is not sustainable in the long term, and that they will eventually have to change their strategy or collapse. The problem however, is that their product isn't subpar. I personally know people who use their products, and the quality is actually on par with high end android phones. Xiaomi is waging a price war against Samsung in China, and no matter who wins, everyone loses.