Still trying to get then to publicly announce this, but my contact within HTC (my business buys hundreds of devices a year) says its all AT&T. He said maybe someday, but chance it'll happen within 3 months is zero. Take it for what you will.
gtkansan said:
Still trying to get then to publicly announce this, but my contact within HTC (my business buys hundreds of devices a year) says its all AT&T. He said maybe someday, but chance it'll happen within 3 months is zero. Take it for what you will.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who is your contact? Can he leak the info we need for an unlock?
He doesn't have the needed codes. Or even the key signer. I asked. Said to say he wished he could help. Been working with me for 4 years, I believe him
gtkansan said:
He doesn't have the needed codes. Or even the key signer. I asked. Said to say he wished he could help. Been working with me for 4 years, I believe him
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He doesnt know anyone that can help?
I got the direct line to some vp's. Calling in a bit to complain directly.
This was predictable. AT&T are a bunch of a$$es and HTC are a bunch of idiots to let AT&T do this to them.
slapshot30 said:
This was predictable. AT&T are a bunch of a$$es and HTC are a bunch of idiots to let AT&T do this to them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, guess that solved my issue. Exchanging for a white Skyrocket now.
Sent from HTC Vivid!
slapshot30 said:
This was predictable. AT&T are a bunch of a$$es and HTC are a bunch of idiots to let AT&T do this to them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been hypothesizing that it was moreso AT&T's fault, as compared with HTC's, as they've been relatively responsive about getting their other carrier bootloader unlocks out relatively promptly.
AT&T's had it against Android from day 1, choosing not to carry high-end devices, then lagging behind on updates on high-end devices, then not letting us sideload apps, and now this. It really wouldn't surprise me that AT&T is the primary culprit.
Look, the international Raider and the Bell/Rogers variants all got their dues very quickly; HTC is clearly not holding back on their part in terms of getting these devices unlocked. Since our hardware is literally identical to the Rogers one (radio bands and all), I don't see why there's any reason to keep ours locked while Rogers doesn't have this issue. There's only one variable here, and it's clearly the carrier.
Wasn't Rogers part of an ATT venture at one point? They're worthy of commendation that they didn't inherit these ridiculous business practices.
Aus_Azn said:
I've been hypothesizing that it was moreso AT&T's fault, as compared with HTC's, as they've been relatively responsive about getting their other carrier bootloader unlocks out relatively promptly.
AT&T's had it against Android from day 1, choosing not to carry high-end devices, then lagging behind on updates on high-end devices, then not letting us sideload apps, and now this. It really wouldn't surprise me that AT&T is the primary culprit.
Look, the international Raider and the Bell/Rogers variants all got their dues very quickly; HTC is clearly not holding back on their part in terms of getting these devices unlocked. Since our hardware is literally identical to the Rogers one (radio bands and all), I don't see why there's any reason to keep ours locked while Rogers doesn't have this issue. There's only one variable here, and it's clearly the carrier.
Wasn't Rogers part of an ATT venture at one point? They're worthy of commendation that they didn't inherit these ridiculous business practices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that would be Bell, but they are still really good to Android. Anyways, only Samsung from now on, since Samsung has the balls to tell them off.
Sent from HTC Vivid!
Longcat14 said:
Well, guess that solved my issue. Exchanging for a white Skyrocket now.
Sent from HTC Vivid!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really?
you waited until after EvilDevnull decides to help before you bail?
ClippinWings said:
Really?
you waited until after EvilDevnull decides to help before you bail?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uh Evil has been 'on the verge' of unlock for the 3D and Rezound for weeks and weeks that I have been following. Can never tell up from down, cant wait on a chance in case it never comes.
Truthfully all things considered you can't say it will Never happen because someone some where will come with a way to unlock the device. Whether it winds up being HTC themselves that leak something just to get sales up or some dev doing it there will be an unlock method sooner or later, just a matter of time and patience. Have yet to see any android device that exists that has not been able to be rooted and get the Bootloader unlocked.
ClippinWings said:
Really?
you waited until after EvilDevnull decides to help before you bail?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tweeted him long before people found out. He said he's going to do a few devices after the Rezound, then us. Sure, we can probably do something with the Rezound, but I'm not used to HTC devices anyways, kind of a brand thing.
Anyways, enjoy your Vivid, I know I will until my Skyrocket gets here.
<Removed>
Aus_Azn said:
AT&T's had it against Android from day 1, choosing not to carry high-end devices, then lagging behind on updates on high-end devices, then not letting us sideload apps, and now this. It really wouldn't surprise me that AT&T is the primary culprit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, every time I'm in an Att store all they talk about is the iphone and apple.
Even back when the HD2 came out and had a processor twice the speed of the the iphone at that time they were still touting it's superiority.
I was a bit surprised to see everyone in the att store when I went in to pick up my vivid with one. Apparently the store in my area were switching their employee phones from windows phones to Android phones and they were all going nuts and excited about the Vivid.
Anyways, I knew it was att that was preventing the unlocking, they have pretty much always been sticklers about things like this especially if it can insure their bloatware staying on our phones.
Sounds like we should keep up the pressure.
StrangeShadow said:
Yup, every time I'm in an Att store all they talk about is the iphone and apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Isn't that the truth. When I told them I was considering the 4s or an Android phone they said 99% of the people who were using Apple and went to android end up bringing the phone back and switching to the 4s.
I couldn't believe how much bashing they gave to android. If I ever hear one of them saying anything again I am going to politely explain: "Does the iPhone come with any AT&T bloatware installed? No? Does every Android device? Yes. Remove your **** apps and people will like android more and the phones will run better."
... ... ...
bconover93 said:
Nowadays you can uninstall the bloatware AND sideload apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uh, what?
The former, not without aftermarket tweaks. The latter, yes.
Don't try to praise AT&T here, it's not going to fly. They still are monumentally iBiased.
EDIT: I just checked Evil's site on this. Regardless of his accomplishments, I don't think I'd ever consider donating to him. He carries himself like a total <insert expletive here> as the most important developer in the world. Reading the thread was painful.
Aus_Azn said:
Uh, what?
The former, not without aftermarket tweaks. The latter, yes.
Don't try to praise AT&T here, it's not going to fly. They still are monumentally iBiased.
EDIT: I just checked Evil's site on this. Regardless of his accomplishments, I don't think I'd ever consider donating to him. He carries himself like a total <insert expletive here> as the most important developer in the world. Reading the thread was painful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If he is the guy who gets s-off for the vivid.... He IS the most important developer in the world as far as I am concerned
Sent from my HTC Vivid using Tapatalk
Related
http://www.facebook.com/motorola?sk=wall&filter=1 click the link people like it and comment on it.
I have seen first hand proof of this working. I had an evo 3d. Htc decided all futre devices would have locked bootliaders well that made alot of people angry. Someone posted a thread on xda suggesting we let htc know that is not gna fly. So it turnd out thousands of people got on there facebook wall and twitter. Guess what the next day htc released a statement saying that they wanted too keep there coustamers happy and that the bootloader would be unlocked. They were. Id like to be able too have a device and not have too get a new one juzt because moto or htc or sammy wants too put them out constantly get people too buy them and then ditch them and out out another. The atrix is 100 percent capable of runing ics and theres no excuae for it l not too recieve it just because moto wants people too buy new devices every couple months. I know many many people feel the same way well as i said we have the power too change that if people would stop bickering and take it seriously. And also if moto started supporting devices longer not just bug fixes but the new android flavors. Id definately make my next device a moto it would do nothing but benefit them
Why are we discussing/petitioning something that we don't know? Has it been set in stone that manufacturers will not support us anymore or is this all stemming from paranoia?
Because it is the trend. And the atrix 2 has been released already. All the manufactures with the exception of sammy have been doing this more and more lately abandoning. Devices. And pumping out new ones. At a very fast pace
So you are saying they are not going to support the atrix anymore since they released the atrix 2? I'd rather wait till this actually happens before i draw a conclusion. e.g. when ICS gets released and they say they are not going to update the atrix.
Kailkti said:
So you are saying they are not going to support the atrix anymore since they released the atrix 2? I'd rather wait till this actually happens before i draw a conclusion. e.g. when ICS gets released and they say they are not going to update the atrix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at the original Incredible.
My wife's one has been turned to **** since the 2.3.4 update, and nothing from HTC, and Verizon pretty much said too bad so sad. Buy another phone or deal with it.
So yes, support will be dropped for older models whether you like to assumed it or not.
Papi4baby said:
Look at the original Incredible.
My wife's one has been turned to **** since the 2.3.4 update, and nothing from HTC, and Verizon pretty much said too bad so sad. Buy another phone or deal with it.
So yes, support will be dropped for older models whether you like to assumed it or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it is obvious support is going to be dropped for old models. But he is implying that models released this year will not get support.
I think for every $10 a phone costs over $50 on launch day (on contract) is how many months it should be updated for. So a $300 phone should be kept updated for 25 months. So this would either keep phone prices lower or keep them updated.
Facebook is a poor way of getting the attention of corporations. You want them to change? Buy a nexus phone. Money talks.
Kailkti said:
No it is obvious support is going to be dropped for old models. But he is implying that models released this year will not get support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think ICS only has support for Armv7 currently, so phones with those SoCs will get updated. However, phones using custom UIs will experience a longer waiting time, maybe around early Q1 of 2012. HTC has released like 1000 phones in the last few months and I doubt most will get ICS soon, not sure if Moto will bother at all. But it might be better to wait and actually see what goes down, like you said.
Has HTC in fact locked a boot loader or withheld hardware drivers?
I intend for my next phone to be HTC just because of the hell Samsung put us though trying to get GB on the i9000.
Handsome Rob said:
Has HTC in fact locked a boot loader or withheld hardware drivers?
I intend for my next phone to be HTC just because of the hell Samsung put us though trying to get GB on the i9000.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC new phones i believe i read come locked.
You can unlock them direct with HTC, but you loose all warranty. As per HTC.
Papi4baby said:
HTC new phones i believe i read come locked.
You can unlock them direct with HTC, but you loose all warranty. As per HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I understand it, you lose all ROM related warranty, so for instance if your screen fails then you're still covered.
Motorola unlocking bootloaders ??
you should check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1316722
I had a motorola xt720.... not the best phone..but was ok. Motorola decided to stop supporting it within 4 months of launch or something stupid like that. No new updates no nothing. And still insisted on the bootloader staying locked so the dev's found it alot harder to do their job for them.
I will never ever buy a motorola product again.
The market is fairly competitive ... don't buy from companies that pull this crap
Hey guys, just wondering what your opinion is on how this locked bootloader issue has affected the potential development of this phone. How bad do you think it really is? Countless people have returned their phones. I'm sure many potential devs have strayed from this phone or HTC as a whole due to this issue. This is a damn good phone as stock, who knows how much better it could be if it were unlocked from the start. What do you guys think the development will be like once it does get unlocked?
slapshot30 said:
Hey guys, just wondering what your opinion is on how this locked bootloader issue has affected the potential development of this phone. How bad do you think it really is? Countless people have returned their phones. I'm sure many potential devs have strayed from this phone or HTC as a whole due to this issue. This is a damn good phone as stock, who knows how much better it could be if it were unlocked from the start. What do you guys think the development will be like once it does get unlocked?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've gotta think it'll pick up. The Inspire was the only "4G" HTC phone for a long time so I can't imagine HTC coming out with anything new on ATT for a little while at least so I gotta think if things do get rolling people will come.
rquinn19 said:
I've gotta think it'll pick up. The Inspire was the only "4G" HTC phone for a long time so I can't imagine HTC coming out with anything new on ATT for a little while at least so I gotta think if things do get rolling people will come.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I sure hope so, but it is depressing to think how many people we have already lost and how much potential devlopment is lost. I'm not sure how big of a factor LTE is to people though, considering it isn't widely available. Not sure when the next AT&T HTC phone will be coming out, but locked bootloader or not, this thing is a beast and is getting ICS. I really don't see a better AT&T phone out right now. Samsung Touchwiz is boring, and so is the Samsung development. There's just so much more devs can do with sense.
slapshot30 said:
I sure hope so, but it is depressing to think how many people we have already lost and how much potential devlopment is lost. I'm not sure how big of a factor LTE is to people though, considering it isn't widely available. Not sure when the next AT&T HTC phone will be coming out, but locked bootloader or not, this thing is a beast and is getting ICS. I really don't see a better AT&T phone out right now. Samsung Touchwiz is boring, and so is the Samsung development. There's just so much more devs can do with sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm kicking myself because I keep telling myself I'm just going to pay full retail and get international devices. I may still look for an Evo 3D or something, but although I'm in a non LTE area I can't wait for it to arrive.
I'll stick with this device and learn to develope for it should the day ever arrive. I'm sure if we ever get root, more devs will migrate. It is a truly capable device and a huge step from my tp2.
it will pick up some if the BL ever gets unlocked.
It really is sad that htc/att are dragging their feet on this. They are losing customers every day, I'm returning mine tomorrow. I really like the vivid but am a flashaholic. I have an amaze also and it doesn't really have much dev attention. I don't really understand why, it's also a great device. I honestly would probably be keeping my vivid if I didn't have the amaze, I'm a fan of the sense ui. I'll be giving the nitro a test for the next 30 days, it should be easy to root with super one click but as with most att devices it will probably take 3 weeks or so just to get a forum for it since it's not a Samsung device.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
donharden2002 said:
It really is sad that htc/att are dragging their feet on this. They are losing customers every day, I'm returning mine tomorrow. I really like the vivid but am a flashaholic. I have an amaze also and it doesn't really have much dev attention. I don't really understand why, it's also a great device. I honestly would probably be keeping my vivid if I didn't have the amaze, I'm a fan of the sense ui. I'll be giving the nitro a test for the next 30 days, it should be easy to root with super one click but as with most att devices it will probably take 3 weeks or so just to get a forum for it since it's not a Samsung device.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you return the Vivid, get another phone, and then return that phone and get a Vivid again? I'm just curious on how AT&T's return/exchange works. Is there a limit of some sort?
<Removed>
slapshot30 said:
Could you return the Vivid, get another phone, and then return that phone and get a Vivid again? I'm just curious on how AT&T's return/exchange works. Is there a limit of some sort?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm considering this... But it won't be until tomorrow fir me, no time to spend in the AT&T store today.
Sent from my HTC Vivid using Tapatalk
ClippinWings said:
I'm considering this... But it won't be until tomorrow fir me, no time to spend in the AT&T store today.
Sent from my HTC Vivid using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, that's what I would probably do if I didn't buy my phone off-contract. Who knows when the next HTC phone on AT&T will come out. The last high end one was the Inspire and that was months and months ago. I think it'll be tough for these people that have always been with HTC to just switch and stay with another brand for a long period of time. Samsung UI is so boring it's not even funny.
Hmm right now I have a Samsung Captivate and I'm either going to the HTC Vivid or SGS2 and right now it seems like the Vivid is not the best option.
I flash ROMs weekly on my Captivate. I guess I was still ignorant and didn't know about HTC's decision to not keep the bootloader so open, like they promised.
Looks like the Samsung SGS2 is the better route...
I picked up a skyrocket because of the locked bootloader but as soon as its unlocked ill trade it for a vivid no doubt. HTC is good with making phones
Sent from my SGH-I727 using xda premium
If enough people are interested, I had an idea that DFW XDA members all return their Vivids at the same time for a mass return at the AT&T HQ store in order to make a statement. This is the heart of their operation. We can discuss this, but what I and others came up with so far is:
AT&T Mass Return
Tuesday December 6th at 1:00pm
208 S Akard Street
STE 110
Dallas, TX 75202
Customer Parking Available for 2 hours at:
1600 Commerce Street
Dallas, TX 75201
Everyone is invited. Whether you have a Vivid or not. I understand not everyone lives here, but all are welcome none the less.
Thanks to Radi0chik
What do you guys think of this idea?
Reclaim said:
If enough people are interested, I had an idea that DFW XDA members all return their Vivids at the same time for a mass return at the AT&T HQ store in order to make a statement. This is the heart of their operation. We can discuss this, but what I and others came up with so far is:
AT&T Mass Return
Tuesday December 6th at 1:00pm
208 S Akard Street
STE 110
Dallas, TX 75202
Customer Parking Available for 2 hours at:
1600 Commerce Street
Dallas, TX 75201
Everyone is invited. Whether you have a Vivid or not. I understand not everyone lives here, but all are welcome none the less.
Thanks to Radi0chik
What do you guys think of this idea?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
great idea.
Returned it already though.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
I bought mine from Amazonwireless... and I've already asked for an exchange to the skyrocket.
Plus the fact that I have school then doesn't help, but if I could come, I would.
can some one help me decide on what phone to get on sunday once i return mine?
i think that lg nitro hd is nice, but ive heard the ui sucks on it... so i was thinking either that new google nexus phone (sorry, im new to android and cant remember all these pohones) or the gs2... id rather have the og gs2 cause its faster than the skyrocket and i dont care to have lte
randrewm97 said:
can some one help me decide on what phone to get on sunday once i return mine?
i think that lg nitro hd is nice, but ive heard the ui sucks on it... so i was thinking either that new google nexus phone (sorry, im new to android and cant remember all these pohones) or the gs2... id rather have the og gs2 cause its faster than the skyrocket and i dont care to have lte
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea if your going to go with a gs2 Definitely get the OG. The Skyrocket has issues with screen resolution and such. As far as the LG Nitro goes I think that is up in the air considering it is going to have a full 720p screen. I am actually slightly leaning toward the LG just because of that but I still need to research it a little bit more.
Yes. I am wondering the same. Though I'm not sure if it will be rooted... New to thus android world. Also, I'm not sure how the devs will take the phone. I heard the lg ui is like touchwiz but retarded... Not meaning to insult. I'm hoping someone will do a good overview of the nitro by sunday
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App
randrewm97 said:
I heard the lg ui is like touchwiz but retarded...
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMO, both of those UIs are on par with excrement. On day 1 of owning my Captivate, I switched launchers. Even on Froyo/GB, I could not put up with it and just went full AOSP launcher-wise. If the LG launcher is the same, I know that I won't like it for sure.
Sense is the only aftermarket UI that I like, hence why I ended up with this phone.
EDIT: Also, what's even the point of this? Sending a message to AT&T about this phone would do nothing with you guys mass-returning it. After the event, you wouldn't even care what happened to this device's development life anyway, while you guys all go for Nitros or Skyrockets or whatever phone fits your fancy.
Occupy AT&T....not a chance
You mad cause you have no root...?
Root doesn't allow you to do much anyway other than to either overclock your CPU, make a complete backup of your rom, flash any random rom you want etc...
All the phones have the same CPU chipset, you're just paying for different screen resolutions and plastic shells that cover everything
Samsung couldn't even use its custom CPU because it lacked the ability to incorporate LTE technology, so they chose the Snapdragon S3 APQ8060 dual-core CPU...the same one in the Vivid, and the same one is in the LG Nitro.
Its the only CPU capable of allowing AT&T's 4gLTE service to run smooth for the end user
So go ahead, boycott the Vivid, youre only benefit is a screen with a smaller resolution or a screen with a higher resolution, plus youre still gonna pay the difference plus a $35 restocking fee is applicable...
It seems to me that the problem isn't the Vivid. It's AT&T. If you really want to make a statement then keep this amazing phone, cancel your contracts with AT&T, and allow the devs to continue working on unlocking and fully rooting the device which you know they will. This will do two things. One: send a message to AT&T that will cost them BIG-TIME. Two:Once the devs see how many people are willing to SACRIFICE their wireless mobility for such a great device, they may release a carrier unlock and varying radio support for the different competitors for the vivid. There are some major competitors that offer much better rates and data packages with full LTE support that DON'T lock bootloaders.
It seems silly to put such a serious and damaging halt to great development just because you're unwilling to sever the head of the snake, whereas mass returns will accomplish nothing. Well, not nothing, but if you REALLY want this problem addressed, make AT&T pay with the sudden loss of income. HTC isn't the problem. The Vivid isn't the problem. Big corporations have insurance policies to protect them when there's a problem with inventory/product defects/returns etc. But losing customers.. That just plain sucks for ANY business. Hit them where it hurts. The Next big awesome phone you want will just be locked up tight as well unless you send a CLEAR message they CAN'T ignore.
The Vivid counterpart in Canada (Raider) has already had great roms and kernels that work and are supported/updated every couple of days. I love this phone more and more and would switch carriers in a heartbeat if the company I pay my hard earned money to EVERY Month wasn't treating me like a VALUED customer. AT&T KNOWS what they're doing. They KNOW that what they're continuuing to do is WRONG. But they aren't listening becuase the customers aren't willing to lose they're precious contract they've worked so hard for.
Yes, it means going without the ability to use your nice phone for a little while. Yes it will suck having NO cellphone at all with all it's nice features at your disposal and whim. Maybe getting a junker from a better provider and waiting for the devs is asking too much.
Either that or stop and realize you've had your phone for ONE month. Forget everything I've said about teaching your carrier a lesson, and show some support for xda (maybe a little faith and gratitude as well) because they LOVE tinkering with HTC's products. I wonder sometimes if there would even BE an XDA team without HTC. Be patient, or teach them a REAL lesson in customer service. The alternative is YOU losing out, and feeling all proud and happy for giving up something you once loved. But then again nobody wants to admit they're ACTUALLY PAYING AT&T to treat us like prisoners. Stripping you of your right to DO WITH YOUR PROPERTY THAT WHICH YOU FEEL LIKE DOING.
While we're at it let's all go buy REALLY nice houses where we're not allowed to decorate, hang pictures, change the layout of the livingroom, or park our cars anywhere near.
Been following these forums since the beginning of this week when I ordered the phone through amazon. Now that it has finally shipped today after being backordered, I'm seeing this
and returning this, which I got for a penny, would mean I would have to pay full price for the phone I exchange for, correct?
I wish the morale in this forum didn't seem like it is dying away, but I understand that many of us are almost at the 30 day limit on exchanges and two years is an awful long time to go without an unlocked bootloader.
My first htc phone, after going through LG and blackberry.... which might be exchanged like all of yours....
I think a lot of you are missing the point. This is not just about the bootloader. everyone's reasons are different so I can only share my own. So if you have been paying attention to this forum at all you might get that. Personally my reasons are in no particular order: Carrier IQ, locked bootloader..not just because of development, but because you can't get rid of Carrier IQ while the bootloader is locked, being throttled by AT&T with normal use only halfway through my Billing cycle at only 3.6gb while I still have to pay full price even though I'm on an unlimited plan, their lack of answers, their silencing of our voices on forums, and those are just a few reasons. This is beyond "you mad about no root". And if you think I won't care about what happens after this, then you really haven't been paying attention. My plan is to import a phone or stick with my streak until I figure out a better option. If I use a phone they don't have on file for me, then I can at least not be throttled or be affected directly by Carrier IQ.
This idea isn't JUST for vivid users, and no one is occupying anything. This is for the returns to occur in one fell swoop so they can feel the hit they have caused themselves. As paying customers, most of us are tired of being treated like this. If you're having trouble understanding why and how this would matter, then you haven't been following this forum.
Returned mine already
rodger-sp said:
Returned mine already
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
everyone Ganged up on me last time when I politely said 'bye bye vivid' not even a week back. Even my thread got deleted and I can't find it on vivid general section anymore.
I think it's worth sticking to Samsung for a while. Eventhough I love sense interface so much, I enjoy having good debloated ROMs that give me full potential of the phone.
I'm back to galaxy s2 and it's totally worth it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
ceo.mtcl said:
everyone Ganged up on me last time when I politely said 'bye bye vivid' not even a week back. Even my thread got deleted and I can't find it on vivid general section anymore.
I think it's worth sticking to Samsung for a while. Eventhough I love sense interface so much, I enjoy having good debloated ROMs that give me full potential of the phone.
I'm back to galaxy s2 and it's totally worth it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might have been ahead of the game sir.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=19946984&postcount=173
Reclaim said:
I think a lot of you are missing the point. This is not just about the bootloader. everyone's reasons are different so I can only share my own. So if you have been paying attention to this forum at all you might get that. Personally my reasons are in no particular order: Carrier IQ, locked bootloader..not just because of development, but because you can't get rid of Carrier IQ while the bootloader is locked, being throttled by AT&T with normal use only halfway through my Billing cycle at only 3.6gb while I still have to pay full price even though I'm on an unlimited plan, their lack of answers, their silencing of our voices on forums, and those are just a few reasons. This is beyond "you mad about no root". And if you think I won't care about what happens after this, then you really haven't been paying attention. My plan is to import a phone or stick with my streak until I figure out a better option. If I use a phone they don't have on file for me, then I can at least not be throttled or be affected directly by Carrier IQ.
This idea isn't JUST for vivid users, and no one is occupying anything. This is for the returns to occur in one fell swoop so they can feel the hit they have caused themselves. As paying customers, most of us are tired of being treated like this. If you're having trouble understanding why and how this would matter, then you haven't been following this forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Carrier IQ situation will allow you to break free of your contract, not happy with AT&T, maybe it wasnt for you, not the first time a subscriber switched carriers. AT&T just got LTE when other carriers had it for longer and unthrottled, what stopped you from leaving then?, I have a bandwidth monitor on my vivid, the HTC IQ AGENT ( Carrier IQ ) doesn't take up gigs of your data plan, matter of fact it takes less than 1/10th of a MB. It is very freaky what this app is capable of and was pretty shocked when I saw the youtube vid. Did you know that uploads are also counted as well!. AT&T will soon realize that 4GB just isnt enough to satisfy customers.
Propose this, you have the ability to break free of your contract pretty soon cause of this whole CIQ debacle, if you want AT&T to keep your business, tell them you want unthrottled unlimited data on your grandfathered plan, they cant do that then just leave without penalty.
Its not HTC's fault AT&T has some weird business practices and contract practices that show up in forums / media from time to time, returning any carriers devices hurts sales and manufacturer reputation. Take the fight where it belongs, tell it to Al Franken..lol
penguinfishies said:
Been following these forums since the beginning of this week when I ordered the phone through amazon. Now that it has finally shipped today after being backordered, I'm seeing this
and returning this, which I got for a penny, would mean I would have to pay full price for the phone I exchange for, correct?
I wish the morale in this forum didn't seem like it is dying away, but I understand that many of us are almost at the 30 day limit on exchanges and two years is an awful long time to go without an unlocked bootloader.
My first htc phone, after going through LG and blackberry.... which might be exchanged like all of yours....
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I'm in the same boat as you got mine for .01 and it's a nice phone. The only thing I'd like to do is remove some bloat apps, but honestly who cares. Everything I've thrown at it works way better than it did on my EVO 4g on Sprint.
Its not like I have unlimited data with ATT and I pay for 4gig of data.
I'm keeping mine root or no root.
EDIT: I misread an article that I thought had said that HTC promised it unlocked in a month. Either way, you people are so impatient.
EDIT2: If this is for Carrier IQ then I totally agree, but for a phone that doesn't have an unlocked bootloader That's just stupid.
If you guys are seriously going to "occupy AT&T" then you are idiots. A few hundred people won't make that huge of a difference when they have nearly 100 Million customers.
In the end you're only hurting the development community because when it does get unlocked everyone would have left.
That's my $0.02. Good day.
Sent from my HTC Vivid.
8125Omnimax said:
The Carrier IQ situation will allow you to break free of your contract, not happy with AT&T, maybe it wasnt for you, not the first time a subscriber switched carriers. AT&T just got LTE when other carriers had it for longer and unthrottled, what stopped you from leaving then?, I have a bandwidth monitor on my vivid, the HTC IQ AGENT ( Carrier IQ ) doesn't take up gigs of your data plan, matter of fact it takes less than 1/10th of a MB. It is very freaky what this app is capable of and was pretty shocked when I saw the youtube vid. Did you know that uploads are also counted as well!. AT&T will soon realize that 4GB just isnt enough to satisfy customers.
Propose this, you have the ability to break free of your contract pretty soon cause of this whole CIQ debacle, if you want AT&T to keep your business, tell them you want unthrottled unlimited data on your grandfathered plan, they cant do that then just leave without penalty.
Its not HTC's fault AT&T has some weird business practices and contract practices that show up in forums / media from time to time, returning any carriers devices hurts sales and manufacturer reputation. Take the fight where it belongs, tell it to Al Franken..lol
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You raise some really good points. Though I do feel HTC does have some degree of responsibility because it's on their branded product with their name attached to the actual app.
Infinimint said:
Wow... HTC already said they were going to unlock the bootloader for this phone. You people are so impatient.
If you guys are seriously going to "occupy AT&T" then you are idiots. I few hundred people won't make that huge of a difference when they have nearly 100 Million customers.
In the end you're only hurting the development community because when it does get unlocked everyone would have left.
That's my $0.02. Good day.
Sent from my HTC Vivid.
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Can I get a link to where they said they were going to unlock the bootloader?
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using xda premium
Few things I want to get straight, I in no way shape or form tampered with this device. I am an AT&T employee and came across this while setting a customer up with his new S5. This is how it came brand new sealed out of the box. Also, I understand the photo is blurry. This is due to the fact that the screen did not stay up long. I snapped as fast as I could before I had to take it back because it was actually extremely buggy and kept freezing. Just felt the need to to share with the guys. Looks like some are being missed in the lock down lol.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using xda app-developers app
bnicsk8guy said:
Few things I want to get straight, I in no way shape or form tampered with this device. I am an AT&T employee and came across this while setting a customer up with his new S5. This is how it came brand new sealed out of the box. Also, I understand the photo is blurry. This is due to the fact that the screen did not stay up long. I snapped as fast as I could before I had to take it back because it was actually extremely buggy and kept freezing. Just felt the need to to share with the guys. Looks like some are being missed in the lock down lol.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using xda app-developers app
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Can you tell what software version its running?
That doesn't mean the bootloader is unlocked. It simply means that the devices scanning utility (SysScope it was called on the S4) detected a change to a file. In the case of the phone you had, it sounds like it was probably do to a faulty board or failing software in a bad unit. The S4s are known to show "custom" for absolutely no reason at all or because of something on the SD card. It usually reverted back to official after a couple of reboots. I'm not trying to be confrontational by asking this, but how can you be an AT&T employee and not know this? Like I said, this question is not a personal attack, but I am wondering if AT&T gives any training on how these devices work in real life and not just on the shelf. Either way, I promise you the bootloader is still locked on that device. The unlocked symbol and custom have nothing at all to do with the bootloader.
Mine shows that also
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
pingfl00d said:
Mine shows that also
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Me too. Still not exactly sure what it means unless it's the developer options being enabled.
Edit: Just checked and it's not the developer options...and mine doesn't have the unlock icon anymore actually. I think scott14719 is probably right.
nizbot said:
Me too. Still not exactly sure what it means unless it's the developer options being enabled.
Edit: Just checked and it's not the developer options...and mine doesn't have the unlock icon anymore actually. I think scott14719 is probably right.
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I'm right. If you want more information about it you can search the AT&T S4 forum for relevant threads. There really is a lot of information about it that might answer a lot of potential questions.
scott14719 said:
That doesn't mean the bootloader is unlocked. It simply means that the devices scanning utility (SysScope it was called on the S4) detected a change to a file. In the case of the phone you had, it sounds like it was probably do to a faulty board or failing software in a bad unit. The S4s are known to show "custom" for absolutely no reason at all or because of something on the SD card. It usually reverted back to official after a couple of reboots. I'm not trying to be confrontational by asking this, but how can you be an AT&T employee and not know this? Like I said, this question is not a personal attack, but I am wondering if AT&T gives any training on how these devices work in real life and not just on the shelf. Either way, I promise you the bootloader is still locked on that device. The unlocked symbol and custom have nothing at all to do with the bootloader.
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Click to collapse
AT&T provides training that is optional for new devices, but there is an article released with relevant information to sell the phone. They do not train employees to check bootloaders, for root, for knox warranty, etc. None of my coworkers know what a bootloader is or what it means to be locked or unlocked. Edit: No training provided by AT&T mentions root, jailbreak, bootloaders, etc etc.
To be on topic, after I switched to ART, the Custom unlocked pad came up, when I switched back to Dalvik, the Custom unlocked padlock went away.
I am also an AT&T COR store employee and none of my coworkers know about that kinda stuff. Not a lick of training is given on that.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
I'll try not to take offense to that....lol. No AT&T does no training for these things. And to be honest with you I am usually pretty knowledgeable when it comes to these things. I have been out of the Samsung scene for a while ( Due to me using my more developer friendly Nexus 5 or my new HTC One M8) so I am now unfamiliar with how these devices handle certain things. I have yet to do anything like change my runtime on the device do to the fact that it only made minor performance changes to my Nexus 5. If I would have I probably would have gotten the same boot screen and then eventually thought nothing of it. Just had a little moment of excitement while on the job lol.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using xda app-developers app
bnicsk8guy said:
I'll try not to take offense to that....lol. No AT&T does no training for these things. And to be honest with you I am usually pretty knowledgeable when it comes to these things. I have been out of the Samsung scene for a while ( Due to me using my more developer friendly Nexus 5 or my new HTC One M8) so I am now unfamiliar with how these devices handle certain things. I have yet to do anything like change my runtime on the device do to the fact that it only made minor performance changes to my Nexus 5. If I would have I probably would have gotten the same boot screen and then eventually thought nothing of it. Just had a little moment of excitement while on the job lol.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using xda app-developers app
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Definitely no offence intended. I just wish AT&T, Bestbuys, etc... would do a better job of training the people that they expect to sell these devices. Most people don't know the everyday quirks of most devices unless they are given an oppertunity to learn about them.
scott14719 said:
Definitely no offence intended. I just wish AT&T, Bestbuys, etc... would do a better job of training the people that they expect to sell these devices. Most people don't know the everyday quirks of most devices unless they are given an oppertunity to learn about them.
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Careful what you wish for!! Last thing I need is someone checking whether my Knox has been tripped or my bootloader unlocked when I do a return :laugh:
As AT&T employees you better get ahold of some higher ups, and let them know they are going to lose lots of customers due to the lock down on their bootloaders of their devices. Many people are ready to switch.
pcidiot said:
As AT&T employees you better get ahold of some higher ups, and let them know they are going to lose lots of customers due to the lock down on their bootloaders of their devices. Many people are ready to switch.
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they don't care and anything this guy says will most likely anything this guy says will be ignored
cyberace1985 said:
they don't care and anything this guy says will most likely anything this guy says will be ignored
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Seems to me they should care, they could lose 100's if not 1000's over the next 4 years.
pcidiot said:
Seems to me they should care, they could lose 100's if not 1000's over the next 4 years.
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But in the grand scheme of things 100 to thousands isn't that big of a loss. for an example with the s5 I can almost guarantee we are just a small subset of s5 owners the largest portion will never know what root is or have any idea what to do with it. The money they take from the larger portion will cover the expected returns from the 1% who are upset and or mad that they locked the BL.
cyberace1985 said:
But in the grand scheme of things 100 to thousands isn't that big of a loss. for an example with the s5 I can almost guarantee we are just a small subset of s5 owners the largest portion will never know what root is or have any idea what to do with it. The money they take from the larger portion will cover the expected returns from the 1% who are upset and or mad that they locked the BL.
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Your right partially but grand scheme of things = all of their devices that are locked not just s5's. I am just saying that, they are always seeming to pull more customers in with new deals so gaining customers is important to them. So not losing customers should also be important in the same aspect no matter what the percentage is. If they don't care then shame on them.
pcidiot said:
Your right partially but grand scheme of things = all of their devices that are locked not just s5's. I am just saying that, they are always seeming to pull more customers in with new deals so gaining customers is important to them. So not losing customers should also be important in the same aspect no matter what the percentage is. If they don't care then shame on them.
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They would love to get everyone 100% satisfied but realistically its impossible so they shoot for the highest number of satisfied people
pcidiot said:
Seems to me they should care, they could lose 100's if not 1000's over the next 4 years.
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No they won't. Who are they going to switch to? Tmobile? Tmobile will be locking down their bootloader as soon as they get the chance. Only reason why they haven't already is because they need as many customers as they can get. Same reason they kept downloader booster...even though they can't afford to keep it. Not to mention, the average user doesn't give a crap about bootloaders or download boosters.
I got the custom message after applying ART.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using xda app-developers app
cyberace1985 said:
But in the grand scheme of things 100 to thousands isn't that big of a loss. for an example with the s5 I can almost guarantee we are just a small subset of s5 owners the largest portion will never know what root is or have any idea what to do with it. The money they take from the larger portion will cover the expected returns from the 1% who are upset and or mad that they locked the BL.
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You are right I seen an older couple at the att store buying both s5's and it looked like they did not know anything about root. Etc. They are buying the device because of its features and camera. Not saying older people don't mess with the bootloader or anything.
MOTO X SLAPPED
I will not state the obvious with the exception of this: If you can not root a device much less install a custom recovery, development essentially means absolutely nothing to you.. In this case what is the new definition of open source? "Open source" made android what is today.
All opinions from different perpectives are welcome--but please mind your Ps and Qs.
Thanks....
EDIT: I firmly believe that xda members must be patient. However, there must also be a realistic reckoning. That is to say--hypothetically speaking--if it takes five years to create an exploit, for all practical purposes one could consider that bootloader impregnable considering the exponential pace of technological advancement. So, if one is measured in their assessment and comments, it is closer to the truth and a heck of a lot more useful to talk in terms of "X" device has a bootloader that can not be unlocked. If for example the S4 is "cracked" say--three years from now, will anyone care? Will development restart? Finally, like with any choice, it's up to the individual to decide what can be considered "hard locked." For me, I guessed that the S4 would be leaked an unlock after the S5 came to market. Obviously my reasoning was wrong. At any rate, my ship has sailed--I can be patient no more.
But remember here we are assuming for the sake of a discussion that these bootloaders will not be exploited and if that is the case will that spread to the point that US development dies on the vine.
I thought unlockable bootloaders WERE promoting US development. The T-Mobile S5 subforum is buzzing, and it's crickets around here. It's these locked bootloaders that cause some frustration.
LoSt180 said:
I thought unlockable bootloaders WERE promoting US development. The T-Mobile S5 subforum is buzzing, and it's crickets around here. It's these locked bootloaders that cause some frustration.
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I think your right about T mobile. But they come with bootloaders that allow rooting and Installation of a custom recovery (I.e. unlocked).. When I say unlockable I am refering to carriers like At&t and Verizon. Take a look at their forums--you can almost hear crickets! As they are "locking down" one might wonder if it will spread especially as a carrier attains its target market share through promotions and even merger.
numbR7 said:
I think your right about T mobile. But they come with bootloaders that allow rooting and Installation of a custom recovery (I.e. unlocked).. When I say unlockable I am refering to carriers like At&t and Verizon. Take a look at their forums--you can almost hear crickets! As they are "locking down" one might wonder if it will spread especially as a carrier attains its target market share through promotions and even merger.
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Click to collapse
T-Mobile is unlockable the HTC One M8 is unlockable, AT&T and Verizon S5 variants are not unlockable - we can't unlock them.
Not being able to unlock the bootloader, I believe is going to end development, at least for AT&T and Verizon. If I had the cash, I probably would've went with the T-mobile version, but I'm not rich like that LOL
As it was said by a mod in another thread, giving hopes to users that the AT&T/Verizon's S5 will get root anytime soon is just unfair for the users. It will not happen. The AT&T Note 3 got root when in 4.3, but there is no root in the horizon for KitKat don't even think about an unlocked bootloader. The same happened to the S4 after it was updated the bootloader and root is now lost and that has been for many, many months and on a phone that it had a very large development. Developers are not even bothering on wasting their time on AT&T/Verizon because there is the TMO and International versions available.
So to answer the original question my answer would be Yes.
eortizr said:
As it was said by a mod in another thread, givit helpsng hopes to users that the AT&T/Verizon's S5 will get root anytime soon is just unfair for the users. It will not happen. The AT&T Note 3 got root when in 4.3, but there is no root in the horizon for KitKat don't even think about an unlocked bootloader. The same happened to the S4 after it was updated the bootloader and root is now lost and that has been for many, many months and on a phone that it had a very large development. Developers are not even bothering on wasting their time on AT&T/Verizon because there is the TMO and International versions available.
So to answer the original question my answer would be Yes.
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I couldn't agree more. I think it's good you emphasize the truth as I helps newer people understand.
eortizr said:
As it was said by a mod in another thread, giving hopes to users that the AT&T/Verizon's S5 will get root anytime soon is just unfair for the users. It will not happen. The AT&T Note 3 got root when in 4.3, but there is no root in the horizon for KitKat don't even think about an unlocked bootloader. The same happened to the S4 after it was updated the bootloader and root is now lost and that has been for many, many months and on a phone that it had a very large development. Developers are not even bothering on wasting their time on AT&T/Verizon because there is the TMO and International versions available.
So to answer the original question my answer would be Yes.
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Click to collapse
There is a fine line between giving false hope and nurturing fears, saying "It will not happen" is not necesarily true, it may not happen, but then again remember some who waited for a year to get root or those with iphones who waited for a year to jailbreak.
just my opinion is all.
cstayton said:
There is a fine line between giving false hope and nurturing fears, saying "It will not happen" is not necesarily true, it may not happen, but then again remember some who waited for a year to get root or those with iphones who waited for a year to jailbreak.
just my opinion is all.
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Click to collapse
Agreed, when I said 'it will not happen' i was referring to the 'anytime soon' statement.
I agree that saying "it's coming soon" is probably not the best phrase to use. However, to say it will never happen is just as bad. It simply did not and has not happened as fast as we want it to. There is always someone smarter when it comes to computers and software. I am sure the devs have a life outside of hacking a phone for us and everyone needs to be patient. Plus the fact with the Knox security, I am sure the devs want to find all possible work arounds. Just my opinion though...
Sent from my AT&T Samsung Galaxy S5.
What I've come to realize in my years of owning Android devices and reading these posts on xda is that virtually nothing is impossible. However, that is a double-edged sword meaning that the manufacturers have had to step up their collective games to make it even harder for exploits to be found. AT&T and Verizon are protecting themselves from the idiots who don't know what they're doing and brick their devices or get them infected with viruses. I can understand that to a point. However, I would gladly pay AT&T and even sign a waiver to let ME take the risk solely upon myself to do what I would like with MY phone. It's idiots that ruin it for the rest of us. Such as the world, I guess. Just my two cents.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
I love to use custom Roms etc.However when you buy a phone, buy it for what it is not for what you want it to be later on. The fact that there is no root is what keeps me using my GS4 more than this phone but the S5 is a solid Device, has great battery life (for me at least) and gets everything I need done. Its a matter of being patient especially for any who own the 4 and know how Samsung and ATT locked the previous iteration of this phone.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Premium HD app
baldwyn said:
What I've come to realize in my years of owning Android devices and reading these posts on xda is that virtually nothing is impossible. However, that is a double-edged sword meaning that the manufacturers have had to step up their collective games to make it even harder for exploits to be found. AT&T and Verizon are protecting themselves from the idiots who don't know what they're doing and brick their devices or get them infected with viruses. I can understand that to a point. However, I would gladly pay AT&T and even sign a waiver to let ME take the risk solely upon myself to do what I would like with MY phone. It's idiots that ruin it for the rest of us. Such as the world, I guess. Just my two cents.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
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Click to collapse
Please explain how these so-called "idiots" are the reason AT&T and Verizon "had" to lock down the devices. I don't understand.
AT&T and Verizon are protecting themselves from the idiots who don't know what they're doing and brick their devices or get them infected with viruses.
I think I kinda explained it right there.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app[/QUOTE]
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
baldwyn said:
AT&T and Verizon are protecting themselves from the idiots who don't know what they're doing and brick their devices or get them infected with viruses.
I think I kinda explained it right there.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app[/QUOTE]
Yes - I get that statement. But, how are they protecting themselves. That is, how are they harmed by these "idiots?" Further, if one were to extrapolate users from population, roughly 96% of mobile phone users in the world don't seem to pose a significant problem to thier carriers as it is only the NA carriers that do this ("hard" lock the bootloader). Then, futher hone that to say maybe 1.5%, at the most, US users root their phones. Then narrow further by device. If these numbers are even close--how many of these "idiots" are there. You've been around long enough to know some of the so-called "idiots" were accomplished developers. I do not want to argue with you. I am genuinely intetested in why you see it this way.
rachelm920 said:
Not being able to unlock the bootloader, I believe is going to end development, at least for AT&T and Verizon. If I had the cash, I probably would've went with the T-mobile version, but I'm not rich like that LOL
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Have you checked into the buyout and trade in promotions T Mobile has? Maybe you can switch with little or no pain. Lol
numbR7 said:
Have you checked into the buyout and trade in promotions T Mobile has? Maybe you can switch with little or no pain. Lol
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Click to collapse
I'm so god damn sick of this OTA sh... I was at work and it rebooted and started installing by itself. I tried to pop the battery but no matter what I do it continues the installation.
I'm moving to T-Mobile. Thanks ATT!
I'm sorry my off-the-cuff remark has gotten out of hand. The idiots to whom I am referring are the ones who brick their phones or get them infected by lack of knowledge and then try to blame the carrier instead of taking the responsibility themselves. As a precaution, I can see AT&T locking their devices down in an attempt to prevent that from happening. I understand it's a small number of people that cause this or are even affected by this, but by doing so, AT&T can better control their integrity. Same reason why a bag of peanuts sometimes says "Caution: Contains nuts." C.Y.A.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
baldwyn said:
I'm sorry my off-the-cuff remark has gotten out of hand. The idiots to who. I am referring are the ones who brick their phones or get thefected by lack of knowledge and then try to blame the carrier instead of taking the responsibility themselves. As a precaution, I can see AT&T locking their devices down in an attempt to prevent that from happening. I understand it's a small number of people that cause this or are even affected by this, but by doing so, AT&T can better control their integrity. Same reason why a bag of peanuts sometimes says "Caution: Contains nuts." C.Y.A.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
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It's cool. Posts are often taken wrong or worded differently than someone else is used to talking. I see your point. It makes sense. I may be a little too jaded (to put it nicely) to let them off the hook that easily though. Lol.
After my purchase of the new Samsung galaxy s5 on AT&T I will state that this will be my last carrier specific purchase,
My girlfriend has the HTC M8 (I had one also but hated the freaking pics from the camera).
This was another example of lesson learned, I will from now on purchase nexus devices or not locked to a carrier specific devices, or Google play edition devices from now on.
No more jumping the gun paying full retail to get phones on release day screw that. Lesson has been learned here for sure.
I am thinking on sending my Galaxy S5 into http://www.maxback.com and then purchasing a nexus 5, then later this year when the new nexus is available,I can pick one of them up.. But im kind of stuck as I love the camera on the s5.... this is what is holding me up...
Sure we and disable the bloatware on the Samsung and all that fun stuff, but there is a world of difference when all those items are gone
Thanks to the awesome developers here on XDA making some kickass roms for us.
I run the kingkat on my girlfriends HTC m8 from the HTC forums and it is so much faster with all of the bloatware and features she was never going to use gone.. that m8 is night and day in speed difference and usability..
Bottom line If we are here we have the mindset to tinker and to tinker on these devices WE need to stop buying locked down phones..