Database Develop

The Theme called "when did this XDA Forums re-org occur w/ Android?"

It probably happened a month ago and I am just noticing it today (Nov 23, 2009), but it's very welcome news. For past 4 years I've been using Windows Mobile, but really thrilled to now have my HTC Hero running Android. I'm just curious when the Development & Hacking forum structure was revamped to give Android completely equal footing to the formerly "mostly just Windows Mobile HTC site"?
I hope someone will answer this question before it gets plucked away and banished to "General Discussions"

Yea, it happened probably a month ago... XDA has never intended to be locked down to just one device manufacture. at the time of XDA's creation the leader in smart phones was HTC and thus we worked with only the best (htc phones). However, now that time has passed we are seeing other smartphones begin to rival even HTC's prior superiority.
While we don't know yet the future of XDA, we hope in the future we can find a way to still provided the best Mod, hack, dev support for your favourite cutting edge phone.
Since the android platform is pretty generic for most phones that run it, meaning they have alot of base principles that tie them together, this has been created, and other sub forums, to try and reach out to the Android side and offer a place to put their mods hack and ideas that may benefit the community.
Stericson

Stericson, thanks very much -- very helpful. It fits with the understanding I'd always had --- that the forum began for modding the device actually called the XDA, which was an HTC phone. And the dominant platform was Windows Mobile.
I have been happy to see how users, all over the site, have been adapting to and including Android phones (those put out by HTC) and Android OS... and how a larger and larger group of users have asked for what you've now given: An equal-weight approach to the Android platform as well as WindowsMobile.
XDA has never intended to be locked down to just one device manufacture. at the time of XDA's creation the leader in smart phones was HTC and thus we worked with only the best (htc phones). However, now that time has passed we are seeing other smartphones begin to rival even HTC's prior superiority.
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This is interesting to read because I have never seen it expressed here before now that XDA-Developers might (... might) begin to more officially support devices made other than by HTC. 9 out of 10 times when a new registrant comes to XDA and asks "where's the forum for the Droid?", and before that, "where are the forums for the Omnia?" and "SonyEricsson?", the answer given by users is "This site is about HTC phones only" usually followed by "read the frikkin' FAQ!"...
Pushing the inclusion-boundaries of XDA-Devs, to me, is a great thing.. and an almost necessary adaptation... as the game has changed dramatically post-iphone. Given that most people in WindowsMobile land equate XDA-Devs as the ultimate go-to source for any mods and hacks on that platform, several large and separate communities have emerged to fill in new concentration-areas with Android that have appeared to be "unsupported by" or "outside the scope of" XDA-Devs. But also gven that Android rooting & modding began happening here almost immediately since HTC produced the first phones, an Android expertise exists here.
To me, now is the time to decide: does XDA officially expand to embrace the other phone makers now releasing Android phones?
Thanks for answering my question. And if you want to move this thread to a more appropriate forum, please do.

In in this New year Your Question should be answered.
There will be New Non HTC devices added to the Forums, though not in Large Scale. We won't be supported all new Smartphones coming out.
And which, well that's still a discussion being had in the General Forum

Please take a second to read this!

First I'd like to start off by saying this is in no way meant to start trouble with Motorola by any means, you guys are an amazing company that make some amazing products. However, as a fan of Motorola and a consumer here are my views and what I assume are the views of many other users. Both people who like root and prefer stock.
I'd like to start by thanking aggiechase37 who's post about Motorola opening up and supporting non-oem ROMs gave me the final push to make and post this thread. If you have not seen it please give it a quick read HERE, and second thanks to everyone who takes the time to read this, if you can please respond with your thoughts on how I feel, and if you agree please post to show your support, hopefully if the support network is large enough Motorola will see the importance and a real benefit to following through with some of what will be said. So tweet this link, give everyone a link to it, and have everyone you know register here at the Motorola support forums, so that they to can show Motorola how big of a community we are, and what we can do with them!
Now to get into the long part... enjoy!
__________________________________________________________________
Thanks Motorola for the Droid 3, it was a great choice to continue the Droid series on your part, I loved my Droid 1, and still use it everyday, and I must say with all the neat features and upgrades you packed in really make it a true phone to marvel at. However, it does have it's shortcomings I'm sure you know more than all of us of all the little quirks in it, and I'm sure your working on some fixes for everyone so we can all really enjoy what this device has to offer.
So to start out, I have a few main points:
Customer Support
Developer side/Developer community side
Opening up a little
OEM supported ROMs
Lets start with Customer Support you guys have a great service record from me, I have never had any problems with contacting you about issues or anything, all of my experiences with you have been more than great, and for that I'd say you are doing a great job. However there are some people who don't get those same experiences, you guys have a wonderful network but there is always room for improvement, just keep that in mind for the future, the best survive and the average fail, so please be the best, because I'd rather have you not fail... The remain aspects of customer support are apart of the Developer Side and the Opening up a little sections below.
Next, the Developer side/Developer community side of things along with the Opening up a little. I understand the reason for you and others to not want the Developer community and to keep your phones and devices purely how you make them and nothing more, but this is old news, no one today wants this. Look at Apple, they are making suits out of their @$$. It's rather annoying to everyone, they are locked down, and since Android was introduced and your Droid 1 launched the Android world has exploded, and the philosophy behind Android is Open Source, so by you transistioning to more of the closed and 'locked' bootloader policy it's making you look more and more at what was the past in the mobile world, sure Apple is still here, but I assume that most of the people who have tried Android from Apple love the experience, and if Apple doesn't make some major changes they will simply become average, while Android becomes the best. So first some stats for you, as I'm sure you know already, but some may not, but there are over 500,000 new Android activations every single day! That's a big number, and it is rising. It has been proven look at just about every single Android device released, they are all rooted for the most part, whether its supported by the manufacturer or not. So root is going to happen no matter if you like it or not, but there are pros and cons to each way of looking at it.
so first the con side, root can be bad, it can ruin a brand new device and steal users info and all other kinds of nasty things, but root is also a nice tool, its good for all of us who want to truly be unlimted with our phones and devices, I'm not going to preach about all the benefits of root, if you want that I'm sure you can find thousands of other sites and blogs with that infomation, instead I'm going to focus on something root does for all of us. One of the root methods found in Android Froyo [2.2] was the 'rage against the cage' while it was an exploit that let all of us root our devices, it also was a way for true 'hackers' with ILL intentions to harm the people who had no idea and were innocent bystanders. Where as the people who found it simply had to use in order to root a device, they had no intentions of using it to steal identies and credit card infomation or anything else for that matter. But the 'hackers' who did are all piggy backing on everyone with the good intentions. With root not being endorsed it makes it easier for everyone to cause malware and harm to the Android name. Now if root was an exteneded option on Android rage against the cage may not have ever been found or used, because there wouldn't be nearly as many people looking for an exploit in the software. But with everyone looking those who want to use it to do bad things then their life is so much easier. They let us do the work and take the bullet and they get to take what they want. So think about it like this If root was an extra option from the manufacturer there wouldn't be nearly as many people trying to find a way to crack your software and make you look bad. Now root is still not something for everyone, but at least the option for it could and most likely would help Android and the manufacturers in the long haul.
Now onto the final point I have, OEM Supported ROMs I know its something you are first going to say will NEVER happen, but look at it like this, others have openly started to partially get to this stage, for example HTCDEV.com coming soon is the section on how to unlock bootloaders, that is good news and the developer community is happy with all that for now, as its a dynamic change in views which is wonderful news. Sony openly supports it as well, just check out this link Unlocking the boot loader | unlockbootloader.sonyericsson.com right on their site how to do it. Now I have to give you guys credit for trying you enabled an unlockable bootloader on the Xoom and now the Atrix, but I have yet to find details on how to do it from you. I have even called and asked various customer service people, most who had no idea what bootloader even was, and the few that did said that you don't support it and I should not do it, and will lose all warrenty from you. All of which I have no problem with. However it was known you supported the unlock the Xoom, otherwise you wouldn't have put it in, so why have your reps say no it's not supported and can't be done? So my first recomendation is to at least make a site or sub site about how to unlock the 'supported' devices witht he bootloaders, think about it, we don't have to come to you to get the info on how to do it, but if we can it makes you look better to all of us. Now onto the second part. like stated in that thread, with a few variations if you officially support unlockable bootloaders on all devices the developer community will love you and embrace it with open arms and your sales will sky rocket, everyone will buy Motorola over the others because of the new policy, but if you also say hey we support community developer ROMs on our devices not only will everyone love you, we will all pee our pants and praise the h**l out of you for ever! Now I'm sure you wondering how the h**l are we supposed to do that and make sure they all work like they should and deal with the head ache its more work than it will benefit. Well that all depends on how you go about it.
I've got plans all figured out on how you could do this seemlessly and easily with little headache on your part, other than making your devices unlockable. I would post it all, but if you are interested I wouldn't want someone like HTC or Sony stealing them and using them first. So I'm giving you Motorola first dibs on this. I also thought about you in the financial aspect so its not like you wouldn't get anything from this, you would also recieve a nice kickback from people using this service, so extra cash, developer and community wide spread peeing of the pants, love and praise for the ages could all be yours. I know even if you are interested it's not something that would be done next week or month, it would take some time to get it all together after we would iron out the details, but I think the investment on your part would go a long way. Hopefully everyone can show you this by supporting me in this thread. I will be posting links on twitter my twitter ID is @DroidConcepts, So if anyone would like to retweet please do, and tweet it yourself as well. I have also emailed this to Motorola, and within the next few weeks will present this to HTC, Sony, LG, and Google. If you or one of them is interested than great I would be more than thrilled to work with you, and I'm not even asking for any money, just a nice new device here and there.. So any feedback from you Motorola is very much welcomed and appreciated and I look forward to hopefully talking further about this, hopefully over the phone, or maybe a trip to the headquarters....
-Woody
I can be reached at the twitter username: @DroidConcepts or by email at [email protected]
I look forward to your response!
____________________________________________________________
I know this was long, so thank you all for following and reading, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show your support so Motorola can not only see how important this is for all of us and the Android community but for them as well.
Twitter link: https://twitter.com/#!/DroidConcepts/status/102548734499495937
____________________________________________________________________________
I originally posted this here: https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/55945
Please RT and support if you can!

The State of CyanogenMod

http://www.cyanogenmod.com/blog/the-state-of-cyanogenmod
The State of CyanogenMod
August 21st, 2011
kmobs
6
I’ve been reading rumors that CyanogenMod’s core philosophy is changing, that we’ve been sold, or that we’ve given up and I want to go on record saying none of this is true at all. As you may know, there are only a handful of people that can approve changes for CM but a lot of developers for it. You may have noticed that we are operating at a slightly slower pace than normal, but that’s simply because we’ve been busy and real life responsibilities come before this project. No one is getting paid to work on the product.
You have most likely become aware that Cyanogen has been hired by Samsung, as that news is traveling through the Android community like wildfire. He is not leaving the project. Samsung is aware of his involvement in CM and there are no qualms from that end. He hasn’t been active recently because he is in the process of relocating to a new city for his new job, that’s all. ChrisSoyars has been hired by Grooveshark and is currently working on projects with them. Koush is working on his DeskSMS application as well as ClockworkMod recovery. And finally, my semester is starting as are my medical school interviews.
As they have before, our insane schedules will calm eventually and we can devote more time to the project. But just because we aren’t around to approve changes doesn’t mean development has stopped or even slowed for CM. There are 40+ talented developers programming behind the scenes night and day to give you the Android distribution that you have come to know and love. On top of all of the above, we are currently in a soft feature-freeze for another 7.1 RC. (You can call it a feature slushie if you like) Because of this, we are reluctant to approve new features that may prove problematic for certain devices for the sake of the stability of the entire tree.
All I ask is that you bear with us during this hectic time.
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CNETs article:Android users outraged over Motorola's broken promise - and my response

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57526994-94/android-users-outraged-over-motorolas-broken-promise/
Put simply hardware vendors suck. They lie. and they do it strategically!
People read and believe the BS that comes from stupid puppets that work for these companies
I know I am screaming and preaching to the converted by ranting this here, hence why I actually took to CNET's page to oooze my rant all over the ingnorant public.
Think about it carefully for a moment. Android = open source. Operating system cost = zero dollars with exceptions to the company paying any licensing fees to Google Android (what ever that might be - I am including it for the sake of someone coming to correct me that knows better or otherwise) and returns the vendor what? Zero....if not negative money (as stated above). Hardware = profit.Truth!
Investors invest money into companies usually based upon what? PROFITS!
So the goal in the game is to support as little as possible only enough to disgruntle the least number of users or potential users and release as many new devices as they can to make....what....OH THATS RIGHT....PROFITS!!!
Company makes investors happy so that they can invest more money into the company to make it bigger and more prosperous! Hardware vendors give a care to current users about as much as the dog sh!t they wipe from underneath their shoes.
For those that were interested in what I actually posted on CNET's page...go here:
http://news.cnet.com/8618-1035_3-57...07&assetTypeId=12&blogId=2&messageId=13032859
Lastly I would like to say thanks to XDA for 1) Me finding you and allowing you to provide access to developers and a community; so that my device can live on many many many more lifetimes than that of the ignorant sheep public that think their device is outdated. 2) Opening my eyes (and respect) to appreciation the developers here who constantly out-do these lying vendors (most single handedly too). Thanks to you all for giving things a shot and working your arses off for free!
PS: Jarmez doesn't rock....developers rock!

The skin overlays like BLUR, TouchWiz, etc that OEMs put over AOSP does cost them money. In addition to making their phones less desirable IMO, the skins hake it harder for them to give users the new updates to android. We love the new features that come with new versions of Android, but they also fix bugs and sometime even add security. Since OEMs have to add their skins, users end up with buggier, less secure, feature lacking phones. That is why so many are drove to XDA, they have no other choice. Thanks to all the amazing devs and themers and moders etc that make XDA great.
I am almost inclined to agree with articles I've been reading more and more of lately.. They argue that only Nexus phones are Android phones, and that BLUR phones should be BLUR, TouchWiz phones should be Toucwiz, etc, as far as market share goes. If you look at it like that, Android is a very small share of the market. I would have to go ahead and include phones running AOSP ROMs in that number. It would be next to impossible to really determine all that though.

Kogan Intentionally Violating the GPL

I would like to bring to the attention of the community, and seek your help with respect to, Australian online reseller Kogan, who I recently discovered are knowingly and intentionally infringing on the copyrights of many by copying and commercially distributing GPL'd software on a variety of Android devices and refusing to comply with their licenses, by not providing the source-code to product owners. The software in question includes both the Linux kernel and U-Boot, but most likely other software too.
I have of course contacted Kogan support and was responded to by a staff member; who I believe is their job to illegally dismiss and mislead customers who make legitimate legal requests for GPL'd source-code and the such. I have thus far endured a lengthy exchange from August 24th, 2013, up until my most recent message to Kogan support member Arun, on October 21st, 2013. I suspect it is Arun's job to dismiss GPL requests and the such because during this two month period, a friend of mine also purchased a different Kogan branded Android product and subsequently requested the source code; only to receive near identical responses from none other than Arun.
Devices that we (myself and my friend) personally bought from Kogan and have requested (and have been denied) source-code for include:
Dual-core Kogan Agora Smartphone - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-50-dual-core-smartphone/
Entering the exciting world of Android handsets has never been easier or more affordable than right now with Kogan’s Agora Smartphone.
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42" Agora Smart 3D LED TV (Full HD) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/42-agora-smart-3d-led-tv-full-hd/
Packed full of features and running the powerful Android 4.2 (Jelly Bean), you will soon be accessing the newest video content, browsing the internet, checking your Facebook, posting to Twitter, managing your emails and making use of the rapidly expanding range of Android apps and games, all of which are easily accessible via the Google Play store.
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47" Agora Smart 3D LED TV (Full HD) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/42-agora-smart-3d-led-tv-full-hd/
Packed full of features and running the powerful Android 4.2 (Jelly Bean), you will soon be accessing the newest video content, browsing the internet, checking your Facebook, posting to Twitter, managing your emails and making use of the rapidly expanding range of Android apps and games, all of which are easily accessible via the Google Play store.
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I believe the following are also a list of infringing devices:
Agora HD Smartphone - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-50-quad-core-smartphone/
Packed with a powerful 1.2GHz Quad Core processor, a dazzling 1280×720 IPS screen, high quality 8MP rear camera and running Android 4.2.2 (Jelly Bean), this smartphone is unbelievable value!
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32" Agora Smart LED TV (HD) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/32-agora-dual-core-smart-led-tv/
Featuring High Definition 720p for HD Broadcasts and HDMI devices, while supporting crystal clear HD 720p playback via built-in Agora Smart TV.
Using Android 4.2 (Jelly Bean) you can access video content, browse the internet, check up on your friends via Facebook, keep up to date on Twitter, manage your emails, watch the latest trending videos on YouTube and make use of an ever expanding variety of Android apps and games, which are all easily accessible via the Google Play store.
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55" Agora Smart 3D LED TV (Full HD) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/55-agora-smart-3d-led-tv-full-hd/
Packed full of features and running the powerful Android 4.2 (Jelly Bean), you will soon be accessing the newest video content, browsing the internet, checking your Facebook, posting to Twitter, managing your emails and making use of the rapidly expanding range of Android apps and games, all of which are easily accessible via the Google Play store.
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Agora Smart TV Quad Core HDMI Dongle - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-smart-tv-quad-core-hdmi-dongle/
There is always something great on TV with the Agora Smart TV HDMI Dongle.
Plug it into the back of the television, complete the 3-step set-up and be greeted by a menu that will revolutionize how you spend your time on the couch.
Android Operating System delivers never-ending possibilities.
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Agora Mini 8" Dual Core Tablet (8GB) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-mini-8-dual-core-tablet-8gb/
The Kogan Agora Mini 8” Dual Core Tablet PC is perfect for anyone who wants to experience Android on a bright and responsive multi-touch screen with illuminated soft-keys, while maintaining the portability thousands of happy customers have loved in the Kogan Agora Tablet Series.
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Agora Mini 8" Dual Core Tablet (16GB) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-mini-8-dual-core-tablet-16gb/
The Kogan Agora Mini 8” Dual Core Tablet PC is perfect for anyone who wants to experience Android on a bright and responsive multi-touch screen with illuminated soft-keys, while maintaining the portability thousands of happy customers have loved in the Kogan Agora Tablet Series.
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Agora 10" Dual Core Tablet (8GB) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-10-dual-core-tablet-8gb/
The Kogan Agora 10” Dual Core Tablet PC is perfect for anyone who wants to experience Android on a large, bright, and responsive multi-touch screen with illuminated soft-keys, while maintaining the portability thousands of happy customers have loved in the Kogan Agora Tablet Series.
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Agora 10" Dual Core Tablet (16GB) - http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/agora-10-dual-core-tablet-16gb/
The Kogan Agora 10” Dual Core Tablet PC is perfect for anyone who wants to experience Android on a large, bright, and responsive multi-touch screen with illuminated soft-keys, while maintaining the portability thousands of happy customers have loved in the Kogan Agora Tablet Series.
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Yes, that's a lot of infringing devices! These are only the Android-running devices. I suspect their other TVs, their routers, and perhaps other embedded devices are also running Linux and other GPL'd software.
I am seeking the community's help in rectifying this situation. Kogan must provide the source-code to owners' of the above products upon the owner's request. In fact they must (and are definitely not in all cases), distribute the GPL license with these products along with a written offer provide (or instructions to obtain) the source-code for the GPL'd software running on these devices. As such, I would like every one of you to blog, video blog, write about, yell about, or otherwise make publicly known, that Kogan are knowingly and intentionally violating these licenses.
If by the off chance you are a contributor to the mainline Linux kernel, you can also send Kogan a legal complaint that they are infringing on your copyright. If you are a Linux contributor and willing to help, please do not hesitate to contact me.
If you are the owner of one of the products mentioned above, please contact Kogan support and request the source-code for the device(s) you own. Feel free to include in your contact messages the GPLv2 license (as it pertains to the Linux kernel).
Exchange with Kogan
Below are a few excerpts of my lengthy exchange with Kogan support staff member, Arun. Please excuse the typos, when I get frustrated and offended (yes as developer I find this offensive) I find it very difficult to write!
Myself said:
Hi Arun,
Sorry, I'd did try to be explicit in my request, but it does look as though you may have misinterpreted me.
I am after the source code for any open source software that runs on the the Kogan Agora 47 (and the Kogan Agora Smartphone as well actually) specifically as these are both products I've purchased from Kogan. What you've linked to is the source-code for the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) which is used as a basis for Android manufacturers. On it's own AOSP will not run on third-party devices. Every device is unique and has its own modifications to Android. Some of this software is licensed under the GPL[1] of which manufacturers (and resellers) are legally required to make available to owners of devices running the software.
I don't know precisely what GPL (or LGPL) licensed software runs on my Android TV (KALED473DSMTZA) and my Android phone (KHPHN05ANDA) because the licenses weren't included with the devices (which is actually a violation of the licenses). However, I do know that at minimum they both run a modified version of the Linux kernel, which is a core component of Android and licensed under GPL. I'd be inclined to think that the bootloaders running on the device are also derivatives of GPL licensed source code. I haven't bothered investigating on my own because I would have assumed you at Kogan already has access to this information and would be able to provide it to me.
As such I'm requesting the source code and a list of open-source software that run on the following devices that I own and operate:
- KALED473DSMTZA: 47 inch Android Smart TV
- KHPHN05ANDA: 5 inch Android Dual-Sim Smartphone
I do understand that any potential GPL (or other open source license) violations may be accidental on Kogan's behalf. I do also understand that Kogan works with Chinese manufacturers to provide these products and may need to chase this up with individual manufacturers. However, if this is going to take some time I would appreciate it if you could provide me with regular updates so that I can ensure that you're trying to address this. Otherwise I will need to report any violations of licenses to their respective copyright holders (and GPL Violations[2]) whom, hopefully it wouldn't come to this, may need follow up with legal action.
Thanks,
Benjamin Dobell
[1] GPL - http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.htmlhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
[2] GPL Violations - http://gpl-violations.org/http://gpl-violations.org/
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Arun claims:
Arun said:
We have thoroughly investigated this issue of GPL.
Now as we understand we have not made any changes to the Kernel source code.
Thus we are not required to publish or share anything and are fully complaint to GPL.
We have added the interface on top and are covered by Android licensing which is licensed under Apache 2.0.
http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html
We don't need to give source code for the product, as we are entitled to modify Android base system and not release those changes to customers.
Android source is 100% available for everyone to download from Google.
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Arun said:
I have already explained, the Kernel is not changed and it is available for you to download online.
Drivers have been added to support the hardware and we have built an interface that goes over the top of Android, just a skin/theme.
We are not required to publish or share this information.
We are not violating any license agreement and not intending to do so.
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This is despite the fact that I had explicitly pointed out, and explained, the exact relevant portions of the GPLv2. The GPLv2 makes it very clear that the exact source code for each software release distributed to customers/consumers must be made available, which is entirely irrespective of whether the source-code is actually modified. This is because simply stating an embedded device runs Linux kernel is entirely ambiguous/useless; as there are plethora of versions, variants and even forks that one could be referring to. GPL violations FAQ (http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html) summarise this requirement nicely:
What version of the source code do I have to release?
For each and every version of the executable program, you have to release the precisely corresponding version of the complete corresponding source code.
So if you have distributed ten different versions of firmware for an embedded product, and this firmware contains GPL licensed software, then you need to release ten different source code packages, each one corresponding for each executable version.
Please note that if you chose GPL Option 3b (rather than 3a), then the obligation only lasts for three years. This means that you do not have to provide source code for any executable code that was last distributed more than three years ago.
Please also keep in mind that both distribution on physical storage medium and distribution via data networks such as the Internet count as distribution.
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Of course, the "unmodified Linux kernel" argument, despite being entirely wrong, is also a complete and utter lie on Kogan's behalf. The mainline Linux Git repository most certainly does not include the necessary source-code and install scripts to build and install a version of the Linux kernel that would run on any of Kogan's Android devices.
NOTE: Arun is completely correct with respect to any modifications to the Apache 2.0 licensed components of Android; Kogan are under no obligation to release them. Which is why at no stage did I ask for the source-code to this software. This is simply Kogan intentionally trying to confuse matters in order to avoid their obligations.

Kogan seems to be a smaller player, but on Android Platform, there are bigger players who are violating the GPL intentionally.
Micromax, Karbonn and Celkon are 3 brands which manufacture budget phones in India. Micromax is a very popular brand and it is currently the top selling phone company in India provided they sell phones at very cheap prices encouraging everyone to purchase them. The market is huge and Micromax would no more translate to a Local brand. The phones are being reviewed on Gsmarena and Youtube too making them more and more popular.
http://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?sQuickSearch=yes&sName=micromax
Micromax was making budget phones in India based on Chinese OS earlier. Most of their phones were rebranded Chinese phones and few of them still are. They made a move to Android, cutting down the Software Development cost for obvious reasons and reducing the price of the device. There have been numerous petitions and requests for source releases but none have been paid off so far. We all know that most of the Android AOSP code is not released, but all the major players atleast release the kernel sources, which is not the case for these brands. I have contacted them numerous times, but they have blindly refused to do anything about it stating that GPL doesn't exists and is not enforced in India.
Myself being a Recognized Developer and Contributer from India, I have been receiving a lot of PMs from other forum members asking me if there is a way to use the generic kernel source code and port it to the device, which I regard would be a lot painful and definitely not worth the effort.
Most manufacturers only know how to sell their phones, but they give a damn about the Software crime that they are committing. I haven't contributed to mainstream kernel myself and I could imagine how frustrated could one be when their intellectual property is shamelessly stolen.

dhiru1602 said:
Kogan seems to be a smaller player, but on Android Platform, there are bigger players who are violating the GPL intentionally.
Micromax, Karbonn and Celkon are 3 brands which manufacture budget phones in India. Micromax is a very popular brand and it is currently the top selling phone company in India provided they sell phones at very cheap prices encouraging everyone to purchase them. The market is huge and Micromax would no more translate to a Local brand. The phones are being reviewed on Gsmarena and Youtube too making them more and more popular.
http://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?sQuickSearch=yes&sName=micromax
Micromax was making budget phones in India based on Chinese OS earlier. Most of their phones were rebranded Chinese phones and few of them still are. They made a move to Android, cutting down the Software Development cost for obvious reasons and reducing the price of the device. There have been numerous petitions and requests for source releases but none have been paid off so far. We all know that most of the Android AOSP code is not released, but all the major players atleast release the kernel sources, which is not the case for these brands. I have contacted them numerous times, but they have blindly refused to do anything about it stating that GPL doesn't exists and is not enforced in India.
Myself being a Recognized Developer and Contributer from India, I have been receiving a lot of PMs from other forum members asking me if there is a way to use the generic kernel source code and port it to the device, which I regard would be a lot painful and definitely not worth the effort.
Most manufacturers only know how to sell their phones, but they give a damn about the Software crime that they are committing. I haven't contributed to mainstream kernel myself and I could imagine how frustrated could one be when their intellectual property is shamelessly stolen.
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Yea Micromax definitely refuses to comply with the GPL. I've only dealt with a couple of Micromax devices on request from users to build CWMR for them and then asked to build CM* for them and various other mods. Which w/o kernel src, it makes things alot more difficult, if not impossible. I just ended up declining to work on the devices.
Huawei and ZTE dont fully comply with the GPL on all their devices either. They like to only release src for a few devices and we dont want to get into their awful coding. lol

PlayfulGod said:
Yea Micromax definitely refuses to comply with the GPL. I've only dealt with a couple of Micromax devices on request from users to build CWMR for them and then asked to build CM* for them and various other mods. Which w/o kernel src, it makes things alot more difficult, if not impossible. I just ended up declining to work on the devices.
Huawei and ZTE dont fully comply with the GPL on all their devices either. They like to only release src for a few devices and we dont want to get into their awful coding. lol
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It is unfortunate but also true that they are all doing it. For instance, Vizio gave me answers, regarding the Co-Star, that are almost verbatim what OP got from Kogan: "no they are not obligated to release anything; if I want to see their kernel I can ask Google for the GTV source code, etc."

cyansmoker said:
It is unfortunate but also true that they are all doing it. For instance, Vizio gave me answers, regarding the Co-Star, that are almost verbatim what OP got from Kogan: "no they are not obligated to release anything; if I want to see their kernel I can ask Google for the GTV source code, etc."
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Dont know to take their answers as just being defiant or ignorant. lol
How do they think they are except from complying to the GPL for using/modifying the kernel src in which we all know they have to do to get it to work with their devices. lol
My vote is ignorance on behalf of the human relations depts, which dont have a clue wtf they are even talking about.

@Benjamin Dobell
How is progress going? I just saw this in an article on ausdroid
As utterly ridiculous this is, being a supposedly 100% google kernel (which it 100% can't be to run on this hardware etc) and how you are correct, there are big violators out there and frankly the "GPL" is nothing. It is kind of like threatening someone with no intent of hurting them: GPL are not going to do much. When HTC release broken kernel sources, 80 days after official OTA is out (when the new base is already out) people are just happy they release it. And while HTC, Samsung, Sony etc are legally supposed to provide kernel source, the main reason imo they release is to keep this xda/hacking community happy. If HTC didn't release kernel sources anymore, most of the community would leave the HTC devices, and buy a samsung or something. It might even make the news, so HTC would get bad publicity.
What does Kogan care, they are selling very small volumes of these phones compared with the big guns, and there are even less people interested in the sources. While I agree that you are correct and Kogan need to release source, not much can be done
Just my 2 cents

Good catch on the Kogan issue, but it will be hard to make a difference by going it alone. Best if you can get friendly with some journalists, perhaps the APC Mag guys or whatever to build up some buzz. Once you have someone interested you can fan the flames from there, to get the word out. You'll probably be surprised what they are willing to run on a slow news day As an idea, if you look at a number of the Kogan stories running in the news recently you might also find some interested journos.
BTW, I suspect Kogan could fix this quite easily by requesting that their Chinese suppliers also supply the kernel source along with the hardware/software deliverables. Might be hard to do that retrospectively but they should do that for all future devices.

Post this on the gpl-violations mailing list.
http://lists.gpl-violations.org/mailman/listinfo/legal/
It wouldn't be the first Android violator they've dealt with this year.

Kogan and the GPL http://ausdroid.net/2013/11/04/kogan-and-the-gpl/?utm_source=ausdroidnetapp
Kogan have been emailed twice re this but haven't responded at all. Hopefully this Might make them get their butts into gear.
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LLStarks said:
Post this on the gpl-violations mailing list.
http://lists.gpl-violations.org/mailman/listinfo/legal/
It wouldn't be the first Android violator they've dealt with this year.
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Just out of interest how many times has a violator been dealt with?
MontAlbert said:
Kogan and the GPL http://ausdroid.net/2013/11/04/kogan-and-the-gpl/?utm_source=ausdroidnetapp
Kogan have been emailed twice re this but haven't responded at all. Hopefully this Might make them get their butts into gear.
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If it makes it to sites other than ausdroid and portrays Kogan in a bad light... yeah I do see it evoking change. To get rid of their bad image if they want to keep selling phones

Most violators tend to comply when confronted by GPL organizations like the Software Freedom Conservancy and Free Software Foundation. Samsung partnered with the SFC recently to peacefully come into compliance over their exfat implementation which used a lot of GPL-licensed Linux filesystem code. Going to court is very rare.
And yes, most of these violations are discussed in the mailing list by people responsible for enforcement. Armijn Hemel and Brad Kuhn of the SFC especially.
I'd be willing to bet that Kogan is also using a GPL-licensed Busybox along with their Linux kernel.

LLStarks said:
Most violators tend to comply when confronted by GPL organizations like the Software Freedom Conservancy and Free Software Foundation. Samsung partnered with the SFC recently to peacefully come into compliance over their exfat implementation which used a lot of GPL-licensed Linux filesystem code. Going to court is very rare.
And yes, most of these violations are discussed in the mailing list by people responsible for enforcement. Armijn Hemel and Brad Kuhn of the SFC especially.
I'd be willing to bet that Kogan is also using a GPL-licensed Busybox along with their Linux kernel.
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I am wondering now, does Kogan even make their phones or is it another company that Kogan pays and puts their name on it? In that case, kogan representatives would have no clue at all
I guess the exfat thing worked, hopefully Kogan will be compliant

Doesn't really matter. Kogan is distributing binaries that contain GPL code. If there's a contracted hardware/software manufacturer involved they're also responsible but Kogan still has to do a lot on their end. They must be having one of those "what the hell are we even doing moments" since they control so little of the process behind their business model.
If Kogan is just putting their name on it, they have to ask that manufacturer (which I assume is foreign) to provide the source for the software involved. Out of matters of sheer practicality and perceived language barriers, Kogan would then share these sources with the English-speaking world. The manufacturer could do this themselves, but whatever.

Quick update for those interested.
Re: http://www.zdnet.com/kogan-to-comply-with-gpl-requirements-for-android-source-7000022847/
1. Kogan have not contacted me at all to indicate that they intend to resolve their GPL infringement.
2. Kogan claimed they have only had one request for source code; this is completely false. As I mentioned in my original post, at least both myself and my friend have requested the source code for various devices. Since then I have also been contacted by a few others that requested the source code also.
3. Kogan claimed that I was requesting source-code for a brand new phone. Which they seem to be using as an excuse for why the source is not yet available. This is completely false, I actually requested the source-code for Dual-Core Kogan Agora phone. Which is the previous generation of Kogan Agora (compared to the Quad core model) and has been available for almost 12 months. In addition to this, I also requested the source-code for a Kogan Agora TV. This particular model of Android TV has only been available for around 3-4 months, I believe. However, other Kogan Android TVs have been available for around 6 months.
Re: Sending Kogan a notice of copyright infringement; still working on getting that sorted.

any update on this?

Hey Ben, have you heard any further from Kogan? I'm keen to get my hands on the gpl stuff for my 55" Agora (nee. Konka ) SmartTV but there seems to have been no movement besides an attempt by Kogan to quell any negative publicity over 6 weeks ago... despite them having shipped modified firmware on TVs that hit the country mid - December. ...

adr6ian said:
Hey Ben, have you heard any further from Kogan? I'm keen to get my hands on the gpl stuff for my 55" Agora (nee. Konka ) SmartTV but there seems to have been no movement besides an attempt by Kogan to quell any negative publicity over 6 weeks ago... despite them having shipped modified firmware on TVs that hit the country mid - December. ...
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Funny they lied their butts off in that article they did about it wrt who asked for it, how many asked for it and what they asked for. Not once did they reply to any of my emails from Ausdroid. We wanted to give them a chance to put their story in print but maybe I upset them ?
Ben did receive the source code. Not sure how public kogan have made this. Ie. Can anyone find it of their website or do they need to request it and then will get a private link?
I am yet to hear back from him as to whether the source actually works and builds the kernel correctly.
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MontAlbert said:
Funny they lied their butts off in that article they did about it wrt who asked for it, how many asked for it and what they asked for. Not once did they reply to any of my emails from Ausdroid. We wanted to give them a chance to put their story in print but maybe I upset them ?
Ben did receive the source code. Not sure how public kogan have made this. Ie. Can anyone find it of their website or do they need to request it and then will get a private link?
I am yet to hear back from him as to whether the source actually works and builds the kernel correctly.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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here's their public site
http://www.kogan.com/au/

MameTozhio said:
here's their public site
http://www.kogan.com/au/
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And? So what? Everyone knows their public site. Where is the link to the source on their site?
Good on them for coming up with the source. I for one doubted they'd be able to get it. Chinese manufacturers tend to not give up the source often, if ever. But it shouldn't be hard to find if someone wants it.
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My Google foo is failing me, because I can't unearth a publicly linked version... closest I can find is the X 8000 series stuff on a Chinese forum, but the X 8000 is different enough from the v712 series based on specs that without the OEM firmware I'm not game to dabble with..
All I really want is to re enable the KKMULTISCR service that isn't active in the Kogan build but is present in all other re badged konka units such as the TCL and HiSense units and the Direct Sale v712 in NZ...
MontAlbert, if you have any suggestion feel free to PM me
I've mailed Kogan and formally requested the source, but I suspect I'll get a run around... maybe I'm cynical but
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