Please take a second to read this!

Please take a second to read this! - Motorola Droid 3

First I'd like to start off by saying this is in no way meant to start trouble with Motorola by any means, you guys are an amazing company that make some amazing products. However, as a fan of Motorola and a consumer here are my views and what I assume are the views of many other users. Both people who like root and prefer stock.
I'd like to start by thanking aggiechase37 who's post about Motorola opening up and supporting non-oem ROMs gave me the final push to make and post this thread. If you have not seen it please give it a quick read HERE, and second thanks to everyone who takes the time to read this, if you can please respond with your thoughts on how I feel, and if you agree please post to show your support, hopefully if the support network is large enough Motorola will see the importance and a real benefit to following through with some of what will be said. So tweet this link, give everyone a link to it, and have everyone you know register here at the Motorola support forums, so that they to can show Motorola how big of a community we are, and what we can do with them!
Now to get into the long part... enjoy!
__________________________________________________________________
Thanks Motorola for the Droid 3, it was a great choice to continue the Droid series on your part, I loved my Droid 1, and still use it everyday, and I must say with all the neat features and upgrades you packed in really make it a true phone to marvel at. However, it does have it's shortcomings I'm sure you know more than all of us of all the little quirks in it, and I'm sure your working on some fixes for everyone so we can all really enjoy what this device has to offer.
So to start out, I have a few main points:
Customer Support
Developer side/Developer community side
Opening up a little
OEM supported ROMs
Lets start with Customer Support you guys have a great service record from me, I have never had any problems with contacting you about issues or anything, all of my experiences with you have been more than great, and for that I'd say you are doing a great job. However there are some people who don't get those same experiences, you guys have a wonderful network but there is always room for improvement, just keep that in mind for the future, the best survive and the average fail, so please be the best, because I'd rather have you not fail... The remain aspects of customer support are apart of the Developer Side and the Opening up a little sections below.
Next, the Developer side/Developer community side of things along with the Opening up a little. I understand the reason for you and others to not want the Developer community and to keep your phones and devices purely how you make them and nothing more, but this is old news, no one today wants this. Look at Apple, they are making suits out of their @$$. It's rather annoying to everyone, they are locked down, and since Android was introduced and your Droid 1 launched the Android world has exploded, and the philosophy behind Android is Open Source, so by you transistioning to more of the closed and 'locked' bootloader policy it's making you look more and more at what was the past in the mobile world, sure Apple is still here, but I assume that most of the people who have tried Android from Apple love the experience, and if Apple doesn't make some major changes they will simply become average, while Android becomes the best. So first some stats for you, as I'm sure you know already, but some may not, but there are over 500,000 new Android activations every single day! That's a big number, and it is rising. It has been proven look at just about every single Android device released, they are all rooted for the most part, whether its supported by the manufacturer or not. So root is going to happen no matter if you like it or not, but there are pros and cons to each way of looking at it.
so first the con side, root can be bad, it can ruin a brand new device and steal users info and all other kinds of nasty things, but root is also a nice tool, its good for all of us who want to truly be unlimted with our phones and devices, I'm not going to preach about all the benefits of root, if you want that I'm sure you can find thousands of other sites and blogs with that infomation, instead I'm going to focus on something root does for all of us. One of the root methods found in Android Froyo [2.2] was the 'rage against the cage' while it was an exploit that let all of us root our devices, it also was a way for true 'hackers' with ILL intentions to harm the people who had no idea and were innocent bystanders. Where as the people who found it simply had to use in order to root a device, they had no intentions of using it to steal identies and credit card infomation or anything else for that matter. But the 'hackers' who did are all piggy backing on everyone with the good intentions. With root not being endorsed it makes it easier for everyone to cause malware and harm to the Android name. Now if root was an exteneded option on Android rage against the cage may not have ever been found or used, because there wouldn't be nearly as many people looking for an exploit in the software. But with everyone looking those who want to use it to do bad things then their life is so much easier. They let us do the work and take the bullet and they get to take what they want. So think about it like this If root was an extra option from the manufacturer there wouldn't be nearly as many people trying to find a way to crack your software and make you look bad. Now root is still not something for everyone, but at least the option for it could and most likely would help Android and the manufacturers in the long haul.
Now onto the final point I have, OEM Supported ROMs I know its something you are first going to say will NEVER happen, but look at it like this, others have openly started to partially get to this stage, for example HTCDEV.com coming soon is the section on how to unlock bootloaders, that is good news and the developer community is happy with all that for now, as its a dynamic change in views which is wonderful news. Sony openly supports it as well, just check out this link Unlocking the boot loader | unlockbootloader.sonyericsson.com right on their site how to do it. Now I have to give you guys credit for trying you enabled an unlockable bootloader on the Xoom and now the Atrix, but I have yet to find details on how to do it from you. I have even called and asked various customer service people, most who had no idea what bootloader even was, and the few that did said that you don't support it and I should not do it, and will lose all warrenty from you. All of which I have no problem with. However it was known you supported the unlock the Xoom, otherwise you wouldn't have put it in, so why have your reps say no it's not supported and can't be done? So my first recomendation is to at least make a site or sub site about how to unlock the 'supported' devices witht he bootloaders, think about it, we don't have to come to you to get the info on how to do it, but if we can it makes you look better to all of us. Now onto the second part. like stated in that thread, with a few variations if you officially support unlockable bootloaders on all devices the developer community will love you and embrace it with open arms and your sales will sky rocket, everyone will buy Motorola over the others because of the new policy, but if you also say hey we support community developer ROMs on our devices not only will everyone love you, we will all pee our pants and praise the h**l out of you for ever! Now I'm sure you wondering how the h**l are we supposed to do that and make sure they all work like they should and deal with the head ache its more work than it will benefit. Well that all depends on how you go about it.
I've got plans all figured out on how you could do this seemlessly and easily with little headache on your part, other than making your devices unlockable. I would post it all, but if you are interested I wouldn't want someone like HTC or Sony stealing them and using them first. So I'm giving you Motorola first dibs on this. I also thought about you in the financial aspect so its not like you wouldn't get anything from this, you would also recieve a nice kickback from people using this service, so extra cash, developer and community wide spread peeing of the pants, love and praise for the ages could all be yours. I know even if you are interested it's not something that would be done next week or month, it would take some time to get it all together after we would iron out the details, but I think the investment on your part would go a long way. Hopefully everyone can show you this by supporting me in this thread. I will be posting links on twitter my twitter ID is @DroidConcepts, So if anyone would like to retweet please do, and tweet it yourself as well. I have also emailed this to Motorola, and within the next few weeks will present this to HTC, Sony, LG, and Google. If you or one of them is interested than great I would be more than thrilled to work with you, and I'm not even asking for any money, just a nice new device here and there.. So any feedback from you Motorola is very much welcomed and appreciated and I look forward to hopefully talking further about this, hopefully over the phone, or maybe a trip to the headquarters....
-Woody
I can be reached at the twitter username: @DroidConcepts or by email at [email protected]
I look forward to your response!
____________________________________________________________
I know this was long, so thank you all for following and reading, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show your support so Motorola can not only see how important this is for all of us and the Android community but for them as well.
Twitter link: https://twitter.com/#!/DroidConcepts/status/102548734499495937
____________________________________________________________________________
I originally posted this here: https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/55945
Please RT and support if you can!

Related

An Open Letter to Microsoft - Let us develop WM6 please

Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1

cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.

Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.

Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.

What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!

!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.

My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.

I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?

pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.

jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!

pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.

texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.

Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.

rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.

I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.

It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??

State of our development!

First off let me say this isnt my style, I am not one for airing anyones business. I wanted to keep the matter private and handle it behind the scenes so that this small issue didnt turn in to an all out war. As you can see this is exactly what happened.
I am only doing this because i want to clear the air for everyone involved, you all got worked up over nothing really. I will give you a very brief explanation of what happened, and i will not name any names.
With that being said, i first want to make an apology to the 2 devs involved:
Bananacakes, i think that i might not have stated my case very well with you, and based on your posts i feel that there might have been a language barrier and you may have taken what i said out of context. All i ever wanted was for you to talk to me about the issue so i could get your side of the story and make a determination.
WildChild, im sorry that i did not delete BC's rant with everyone elses. I didnt mean to make you look like an a$$. I wanted to give BC a voice on the matter but i didnt want to censor him completely. And in hindsight i may have damaged your name. Was not my intention, and i feel bad that it happened.
In this open community it is acceptable to share and borrow from others but its common courtesy to give the other dev credit for their work.
***********
A brief summary of what happened:
A MEMBER of the community (not one of the devs involved) brought to me an issue of similarities between 2 dev's. provided some screen shots and asked me to investigate the matter, as it APPEARED to be a Kanging issue (to get the story straight, it was MORE than just a so called script). So i contacted both devs involved, one was very cooperative and the other never contacted me. I waited 5 days before i took the next step at contacting the dev and this is where it all turned really ugly and public.
***********
Now, in this issue there has been numerous attacks on each others and some very ugly things said. Im willing to overlook all of those at this moment as i know a lot of you were upset. Loosing 2 dev's is a serious matter when we dont have that many to begin with. If i see anymore angry posts towards one another i will not hesitate to issue temporary/permanent bans (depending on severity).
Now quick, everyone, group hug!
I am going to leave it open for in case anyone wants to comment or beg either dev to come back. But the instant that someone gets negative toward either dev (i dont care if you talk bad about me, lol) i will lock this from comments.

I had this as a sticky, but in reality there isnt much going on in here right now, so really there is no need. I will only sticky if it starts to fall towards the bottom.

Please come back WC , WE MISS YOU

Was there wrong doing? Is the HoliRaider thread coming back?

jazzmoe76 said:
Was there wrong doing? Is the HoliRaider thread coming back?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing has been proved at this point. And the HoliRaider thread is being looked at by pstevep.

jazzmoe76 said:
Was there wrong doing? Is the HoliRaider thread coming back?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am waiting to talk to bananacakes before any decisions are made. I'm hoping we can work all of this out in a friendly non confrontational way.
I will post here any updates.
Thanks everyone for cooperating.
Sent from my PG86100 using xda premium

Everyone needs to just take it easy and not take things too serious. We should just stay focused on the prize, which is producing the best ROMs this phone has ever seen. All that arguing doesn’t get us closer to our goals, but hinders it. So Bananacakes and WC, just chill out and come back, your both good developers. After everyone is back to work and producing again, all this will be forgotten. Especially with ICS just around the corner, we'll need you even more.

NIKKG said:
Everyone needs to just take it easy and not take things too serious. We should just stay focused on the prize, which is producing the best ROMs this phone has ever seen. All that arguing doesn’t get us closer to our goals, but hinders it. So Bananacakes and WC, just chill out and come back, your both good developers. After everyone is back to work and producing again, all this will be forgotten. Especially with ICS just around the corner, we'll need you even more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+ 1
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App

So... The only 2 devs that we had left.. are gone?

Language barrier? Is one of y'alls native language something other than English?
Sent from my HTC Vivid

Crimson Ghoul said:
So... The only 2 devs that we had left.. are gone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I havent seen any comments through this whole ordeal from Vhjc or PirateGhost, so i would assume they are still with us. As far as i know its just WildChild and BananaCakes that have decided to leave us. We do hope that they will reverse their decision and decide to come back.
haggardh said:
Language barrier? Is one of y'alls native language something other than English?
Sent from my HTC Vivid
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, and Bananacakes has stated on a few occasions that his english isnt that great. I personally felt that it was pretty good, but there was definitely some misunderstandings along the way. So i can only assume that it was a language barrier.

shogunmark said:
I havent seen any comments through this whole ordeal from Vhjc or PirateGhost, so i would assume they are still with us. As far as i know its just WildChild and BananaCakes that have decided to leave us. We do hope that they will reverse their decision and decide to come back.
yes, and Bananacakes has stated on a few occasions that his english isnt that great. I personally felt that it was pretty good, but there was definitely some misunderstandings along the way. So i can only assume that it was a language barrier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only Bananacakes and Wild Child were constantly updating their roms though... that's what I meant

I have been edited because i cant follow directions.
shogunmark said:
If i see anymore angry posts towards one another i will not hesitate to issue temporary/permanent bans (depending on severity).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

So the mods are devs?!?
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App

come at me bro said:
So the mods are devs?!?
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am the only mod involved with this. But to answer your question, no i am not currently a dev.

NIKKG said:
Everyone needs to just take it easy and not take things too serious. We should just stay focused on the prize, which is producing the best ROMs this phone has ever seen. All that arguing doesn’t get us closer to our goals, but hinders it. So Bananacakes and WC, just chill out and come back, your both good developers. After everyone is back to work and producing again, all this will be forgotten. Especially with ICS just around the corner, we'll need you even more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For real... finally, a voice of reason. I mean, common sense. Okay so everyone has something to be bitter about. But how will that get anyone anywhere?
Walking away from a problem is NEVER the solution. At least Pirate and vhjc are still here, or so it seems.

I have had chat's with both guys at on point or another & in jest I probably started this, or some of it anyways.
However, the way I see it is that Android is a Linux fork complete with GPL requirements & in reality it is virtually impossible to Kang anything that is linux or Android related, aside from user side code.
Development at this stage is in it's infancy for the Vivid & Raider due to the lack of sources as well as the lack of developer involvement.
Android is all in all an open source project created with the intent of giving end users more fredom & choices. It is also a fairly easy platform to learn & develop for & on.
Kernels built are based partly on code from Google & sometimes the oem as well. Modifying a Kernel is a fun & sometimes brings us positive changes that improve our devices. How about the addition of the Bravia Engine & XLoud? Cool, right? But nobody thanks Sony in their posts. The whole point of opensource projects & a GPL is that we are supposed to work together to improve devices for ourselves & for end-users. We are supposed to share & collaberate in an effort to streamline our builds, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.
Yes, it's nice to see your name & be recognized for accomplishments, but that should be secondary, if an issue at all, to development. Let's be honest, most everyone cooking roms is "kanging" (for lack of a more accurate word) code from device chef's that have worked devices released before the Vivid, like the Sensation. We are all definitely "kanging' code from LG, Sony, HTC & Samsung.
Many of the Chef's/Cook's or whatever you want to call them, wouldn't even have an idea without work spanning back over a decade when XDA was truly a developer community forum. Look at all the work BuzzLightYear & itsme did & published for the betterment of the community. It's a different time now & instead of power users & developers being the owners of smartphones, now everyone that has a mobile pretty much has a "Smartphone".
Many of you don't even know that I cook roms. I don't publish them though, aside from a close friend or two, because of all this contention about what belongs to whom. Frankly, unless it is a program, more than likely the work has been done or modified somewhere in some forum on this planet. Unless you are truly rewriting a driver or an application, most everything else is part of the GPL & considered opensource.
I like Bananacakes rom. I like the graphics because the higher contrast makes it easier for me to read. I also like WildChild, bot the stability of his roms & him personally. We talk & razz each other at least once a week. I take both of their roms & mesh then into something I use for a daily driver. I use a modded version of the Rezound Incredikernel for my kernel & scripts from a dozen people. I will never publish it. I don't want to hear how I stole this or that, half of which was really stollen from the oem developer anyway, so I refuse to put myself thru that.
Most threads recognize people that have contributed & so many people contribute & there are so many parts to a rom that it's easy to overlook something that a member may have worked on. This crap all started around the time of the TouchPro & TouchPro 2. People stopped sharing source & started trying to lock down their roms & development stiffled. Sure, there were some cooks that made PRETTY roms, but there was no innovation, not truly.
Either this is a community working on an open source project, and like a family we all share from each others experiences & knowledge, or this is the death of development communities & everything might as well be an iPhone since everyone thinks their contributions are their intellectual property.
For this to remain a true development community, we need to share our work in the spirit of open source. This collaboration has to be a two way street though. If you borrow from someones work, then when you find way of improving upon it, you need to publish it, to share it.
And for criminies sake, knock off the 10 year old "I'm taking my ball home" crap. Kiss & make up, shake hands, get a room...whatever...Just share & share ALIKE & lets get on with making the Vivid the best device.
To all non-developing members: Really, Android is easy to develop for. A ton of the work can be done in a good text editor. There are really goog resources available to help you setup a development environment & even help you learn & write a first simple application. I promise you, it is much less daunting & intimidating than many think. Wild Child is a self-taught developer whom is really not involved in development as a career. I have some professional programming experience, but it is very specific (LANWorks & BACNet). I am not a mobile developer by trade. I'd hate to see either of these guys leave the community, but if they do then step up & learn to help yourself. Start with something you want to change, read learn & then it's trial & error time. Cooking a rom is the easy part. Making it truly unique & perform better than stock is also easy on many levels. It can be as simple making a few changes in text files. We need that. We also need better drivers, our devices are capable of 5Ghz wireless-n connectivity, but the drivers & implementation from HTC prevent it. Better media native compatibility is also another big thing that is possible. Again, this is a community, or supposed to be at least, so get involved. Make an effort.

shogunmark said:
I havent seen any comments through this whole ordeal from Vhjc or PirateGhost, so i would assume they are still with us. As far as i know its just WildChild and BananaCakes that have decided to leave us. We do hope that they will reverse their decision and decide to come back.
yes, and Bananacakes has stated on a few occasions that his english isnt that great. I personally felt that it was pretty good, but there was definitely some misunderstandings along the way. So i can only assume that it was a language barrier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would have never noticed that. Now that I think about it Some things do stick out. Well Thank you. I just saw where hes from. That being said its a different culture between the two. So in each others eyes they were right, and the other wrong.
So I hope neither of them are the stubborn type and decide to work things out.

GSLEON3 nailed it!!!!!! Yes, yes, yes and yes.

GSLEON3 said:
I have had chat's with both guys at on point or another & in jest I probably started this, or some of it anyways.
However, the way I see it is that Android is a Linux fork complete with GPL requirements & in reality it is virtually impossible to Kang anything that is linux or Android related, aside from user side code.
Development at this stage is in it's infancy for the Vivid & Raider due to the lack of sources as well as the lack of developer involvement.
Android is all in all an open source project created with the intent of giving end users more fredom & choices. It is also a fairly easy platform to learn & develop for & on.
Kernels built are based partly on code from Google & sometimes the oem as well. Modifying a Kernel is a fun & sometimes brings us positive changes that improve our devices. How about the addition of the Bravia Engine & XLoud? Cool, right? But nobody thanks Sony in their posts. The whole point of opensource projects & a GPL is that we are supposed to work together to improve devices for ourselves & for end-users. We are supposed to share & collaberate in an effort to streamline our builds, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.
Yes, it's nice to see your name & be recognized for accomplishments, but that should be secondary, if an issue at all, to development. Let's be honest, most everyone cooking roms is "kanging" (for lack of a more accurate word) code from device chef's that have worked devices released before the Vivid, like the Sensation. We are all definitely "kanging' code from LG, Sony, HTC & Samsung.
Many of the Chef's/Cook's or whatever you want to call them, wouldn't even have an idea without work spanning back over a decade when XDA was truly a developer community forum. Look at all the work BuzzLightYear & itsme did & published for the betterment of the community. It's a different time now & instead of power users & developers being the owners of smartphones, now everyone that has a mobile pretty much has a "Smartphone".
Many of you don't even know that I cook roms. I don't publish them though, aside from a close friend or two, because of all this contention about what belongs to whom. Frankly, unless it is a program, more than likely the work has been done or modified somewhere in some forum on this planet. Unless you are truly rewriting a driver or an application, most everything else is part of the GPL & considered opensource.
I like Bananacakes rom. I like the graphics because the higher contrast makes it easier for me to read. I also like WildChild, bot the stability of his roms & him personally. We talk & razz each other at least once a week. I take both of their roms & mesh then into something I use for a daily driver. I use a modded version of the Rezound Incredikernel for my kernel & scripts from a dozen people. I will never publish it. I don't want to hear how I stole this or that, half of which was really stollen from the oem developer anyway, so I refuse to put myself thru that.
Most threads recognize people that have contributed & so many people contribute & there are so many parts to a rom that it's easy to overlook something that a member may have worked on. This crap all started around the time of the TouchPro & TouchPro 2. People stopped sharing source & started trying to lock down their roms & development stiffled. Sure, there were some cooks that made PRETTY roms, but there was no innovation, not truly.
Either this is a community working on an open source project, and like a family we all share from each others experiences & knowledge, or this is the death of development communities & everything might as well be an iPhone since everyone thinks their contributions are their intellectual property.
For this to remain a true development community, we need to share our work in the spirit of open source. This collaboration has to be a two way street though. If you borrow from someones work, then when you find way of improving upon it, you need to publish it, to share it.
And for criminies sake, knock off the 10 year old "I'm taking my ball home" crap. Kiss & make up, shake hands, get a room...whatever...Just share & share ALIKE & lets get on with making the Vivid the best device.
To all non-developing members: Really, Android is easy to develop for. A ton of the work can be done in a good text editor. There are really goog resources available to help you setup a development environment & even help you learn & write a first simple application. I promise you, it is much less daunting & intimidating than many think. Wild Child is a self-taught developer whom is really not involved in development as a career. I have some professional programming experience, but it is very specific (LANWorks & BACNet). I am not a mobile developer by trade. I'd hate to see either of these guys leave the community, but if they do then step up & learn to help yourself. Start with something you want to change, read learn & then it's trial & error time. Cooking a rom is the easy part. Making it truly unique & perform better than stock is also easy on many levels. It can be as simple making a few changes in text files. We need that. We also need better drivers, our devices are capable of 5Ghz wireless-n connectivity, but the drivers & implementation from HTC prevent it. Better media native compatibility is also another big thing that is possible. Again, this is a community, or supposed to be at least, so get involved. Make an effort.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have decided to teach myself the trades of development on the android system. Need to put my AAS degree to the test
Sent from my HTC Vivid

[REQUIRED BY ALL] YOU ALL BETTER READ...NOW!!!

This is gonna be a book post, so grab a drink, sit down & READ THE WHOLE THING!
Okay, I was a happily retired moderator with little time for babysitting & hand holding, but after nearly two decades of being involved with mobile development from Palm to the device & OS that really started this (Blue Angel PPC2002/PPC2003/PPC2003SE) I will be damned if I am going to let ANYONE ruin the major development repository for what is arguably the best device HTC has made to date. Yes, it was also the worst marketed & whomever handled the marketing plan for the Holiday Series should be selling used cars (Not that there's anything wrong with that, they were just obviously out of their league with the Vivid), however I digress.
I cook roms, I tweak things & talk & have help fix issues for more chef's than I can count. I don't do public releases & I stopped doing custom builds for Senior Members a long time ago. I am here purely for the advancement of mobile development, to learn & to help those that truly take the time to learn.
First things first, this is a development thread. If you are not a developer (I'm not, not really) you must realize that we are working with Alpha's, Beta's & sometime code & data from completely different device manufacturers. This means that there is a certain amount of inherent risk envolved, ALWAYS. This is evidenced & acknowledged by every single person that DECIDED to ignore the warnings issued by HTC as well as the developers here & agreed to the terms when they unlocked their device. "Unlocking your device is DANGEROUS & may VOID your warranty."
I own several devices, as do the former Dev's of this sub-forum. The reason we all are, or were, here is because we all agreed that despite HTC's fumble with the device, it is a fresh design from the rubberized slabs & plastic toys we've seen lately & the device is truly a powerhouse when configured correctly. None of us have to develop, not for the public, and for those that do, I can tell you it's not for the money nor the fame. If it was for fame the folks that left wouldn't be working from blog space & small sites. Sure, there are always glory hounds, but the Developers in Vivid are about the pursuit of perfection, nothing more. Roms are not made by a single person, many have a hand in adding or modifying portions of a rom. This means that when you slam or disrespect a chef or rom, you are telling six or more people that you do not appreciate their work. There will always be difference of opinion, but when that occurs, I expect you to handle it like a man (or woman) & use the Personal Message system this site offers. Even in those cases, I demand no less than respect & civility when communicating & you all agreed to that when you registered here at XDA. Failure to do so CAN & WILL BE GROUNDS FOR A BAN OF APPROPRIATE LENGTH.
Now, I am not a new Mod & XDA has seen fit to call me back to active duty as a Global Moderator, not a forum moderator, & that alone should tell you how frelled the vivid section has become. I am not here to power trip, don't want to ban anyone & hate cleaning useless posts from threads. But I have agreed to do just that until we can all become a happy family
I am working on getting all the dev's back here that left as well as getting some support from some of the more populated forum threads. This will be more & more important as fragmentation goes away & Android becomes more unified. ICS is a step in that direction, Android 5.0 will almost be there completely.
You may not know it yet, but HTC knows they built a great device in the Holiday line & we have already seen ICS release roms for the US AT&T variant. They went & integrated beats & discussion is taking place about a possible Sense 4.0 version for the Holiday. Not a kanged version, but a true to goodness OEM complete with source code & all. While most other devices are still working with leaked versions & test betas, we have an honest to goodness Release version of ICS with some already even getting OTA updates as well. The Vivid is one of a handful of devices that can more than adequately run the same software versions as the newly unveiled One Series, only the Vivid doesn't look like a Sensation mated with a Flyer. I know most of the developers that left, some more than others & I am working on bringing them back to the XDA table. You see, when a developer leaves we get fragmentation. We also usually lose a lot of work from other rom team members, themers, coders, tweakers, hackers, kernel builders, etc...
It would be rather simple for a good Sensation developer to get us a great recovery, provide us with pointers on things they have found with getting ICS to run smoothly as they have been working with api 15 for longer than most Vivid dev's. Unfortunately, they see the Vivid forum as the red headed bastard stepchild of XDA & right now we are. Winter is over & never before have I seen so many developers fky away like a flock heading back north. They all left or are on the fence about leaving. That says something. It's not one high maintenance chef whining & leaving. It is a whole group of Dev's & the supporting members from all over the world leaving. That tells me something is broken, seriously broken & that you as Vivid forum participants have failed the developers & the community. We are broken & need to fix ourselves & learn to police ourselves to become whole again. Do you like stock roms? are you 100% satisfied with whomevers rom you are using? I hope the answer is yes, because unless we pull together & make changes you are gonna be stuck with what you have. Sure, more cooks will emerge. But every rom team member is exceptional at certain things & without them future roms will be lacking in certain areas.
At any rate I digress. Many of you know me. I am honest & fair. I am here, & XDA agreed, as a Hail Mary, to properly support the forum & to try a save the Vivid section from failing. The number one rule here from now on is: Be courteous, respectful & honorable; and if you can't do that....I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance & furious anger those who would attempt to poison our developers & destroy my forum.
THIS IS YOUR WARNING: I am an American, so Baseball is my countries pastime, right? Just like baseball I am immediately instituting a three strikes policy. Each strike will incur penalty on a progressive scale ending with me petitioning to permanently ban you if needed. And be advise that if you post useless or negative to development threads, expect them to be deleted. Just be smart & always take a minute to think things thru before posting & doing irreparable damage. Words are like currency, you can always save them & they'll be there later if needed, but let them burn a hole in your pocket & spend them to soon...You're broke & there's no getting them back.
Now I am stickying this thread & will be leaving it open for a short while. I am doing this to give you a chance to kindly ask the dev's that left to come back & where appropriate make amends or apologize for any personal attacks that were made publicly. If you wrote it where everyone could read it, you should have the fortitude to make it right publicly. If not, then I again refer you to the Personal Message utility provided to you by XDA.

Nicely written.
+1 on bringing back the Devs

Please come back This forum wouldn't be anywhere near as inventive and informative if we didn't have our devs.
Excellent post as well

Im glad to see you stepping in and trying to help the other mods get a handle on things.
I love our phone just like most of the other users here, and have been dissapointed with the state of our forum for the last few weeks. I know the dev who left are still interested in our device as they took their roms elsewhere. Maybe with these current event they will consider coming back. We can only hope, XDA has been a great repository of roms and the help we might need with them. Lets not fragment our resources anymore then it already is.

All I can say is WOW that was greatly written!!
You know what really sucks I have been a member for what i consider to be a long time, I have flashed 1000s of rom's on I don't how many phones and read probably millions of posts! This site is my addiction I read it every day. And over the last couple of months it has just gotten horrible, ridiculous and childish on both sides the noobs and the Dev's! Now DONT GET ME WRONG!! I love and admire everyone who develops, cooks and contributes to the forum. I admit I could never deal with all crap that some noobs and some not so noobs! It is not only this forum it seems to be wide spread even down to the scamming going on at the market place!!! It has honestly made me not want to come to XDA which really sucks.I have all ways looked at XDA as one of the best community's/families i have ever worked with. Just think about how many country's, languages,class,s of life white collar,blue collar and every where in between!!! Just like any family/community you have problems and you find way's to work through the hard times and it makes you stronger so I just plead to all the Developers to try to work whit us. Even if you just post your work and then just have a question and answer sec. and let the community answer the questions. Im just saying there has to be a solution!!
Okay I'm done Rambling!! Thank You to the Mods to for trying to hold it all together!! OK now i'm done!

Wow, it's good to hear something positive around here. You might this sections savoir.

WOW! Great post, thank you very much!
I think we ALL want to run the latest and greatest Android version on the best possible ROM ever on our beloved Holiday. Most are anxious about it and, at the same time, do not want to brick their expensive phones. This being said, this shouldn't be a motivation for ANYONE to bash on the developers.
Like a lot of people, I bought my HTC Raider knowing that, at that time, the development wasn't too far. I was glad to see dev's coming in the Raider/Vivid/Holiday/Velocity family. I was friggin' happy when I saw the first ROM available for my phone! I also flashed at my own risk, knowing I was maybe scarifying my $600 CAD phone.
I, as a relatively new comer, learned from it: do not ask questions that you can easily find answers for by searching the forum. While this is not the (only) reason why so many devs have left, I would like to apologize for my few n00b questions that I may have asked previously. I learned from it and will now properly search before asking.
PLEASE, let's put these few problems aside and let's be a big nice community once again!
I hope we'll see devs back here once again!

This is my first HTC since buying my HTC Dream back in the infancy of android and I was saddened to see how things have turned on this board.
For every Samsung and LG device I have owned there has always been a thriving community of people who have an understanding and work together. However none have ever had the same feeling when I owned an HTC and was part of the community that made the Dream(G1) what it is, an icon. I so wish to be apart of something like that again with this, arguably the best HTC device, as GSLEON3 put it and would love to make it the next big thing.
I understand if the Devs don't come back but I certainly hope they do. There is a lot of work for us to get done and we really need all the amazing talented individuals we can get.

I agree and its getting old visting 20 sites
Xda should be a place where devs can release there work and the community can help each other out not bark at the devs and chase them out, a place where everyone can contribute in one way or another

come at me bro said:
I agree and its getting old visting 20 sites
Xda should be a place where devs can release there work and the community can help each other out not bark at the devs and chase them out, a place where everyone can contribute in one way or another
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think That that should become our mission statement "a place where everyone can AND SHOULD contribute in one way or another"

This is nice,
well said GSLEON3, i'm happy to see this.
i've been around xda for a while and had my share of phones and not a single one wasn't modified in a way shape or form from xda so when i picked up a vivid 2 weeks ago, it was my first choice but i'm stuck with at&t for now and besides the inspire 4g it's the only other decent phone that fits my needs and wants and regardless of how heavy it is, it's worth it. I was so disappointed and sad, mainly so sad when i saw what was happening, and by tuesday night i was like this isn't gona work for me, i'm gona be stuck with the stock gb rom or stock ics which i can't stand, i just wanted a fully functioning runnymed port but i was disappointed that the bootloader can only be unlocked through htcdev which then voids my warranty while i didn't have that issue with all the previous phones so i never hesitated to root, flash recovery and the roms of my choice. titanium and nandroid backups were like my best non human friends lol. when all this started happening and pretty much everyone was gone, i was like this isn't gona work, saw a report in the portal for a sense port to the nexus s one for ics and one for gb that had almost everything working, so i figured let me see how much i can buy a nexus s for and found a really good deal so i bought it the next day and put my vivid up for sale, i havent sold it yet, and i've been coming around to see if anything has changed, and now that it has i might reconsider and keep it, sell the nexus s and hopefully things get rolling again and we can all have the vivid the way we want. so sorry for making this even longer than i anticipated but hopefully the devs will see this and do come back, and that we do get help from other devs and new ones, i mean having phones like the hd2, mytouch 4g inspire 4g, sensation, the forums on those are filled, even the nexus s i can't keep or find a rom that i like, there r just so many options left and right so i hope that the vivid will become like that soon and yeah i dunno call me crazy or something but like i said earlier, i would be very happy if bootloader can be unlocked without htcdev that is relockable with no trace and to have a fully working gb rom with sense 3.5 like the runnymed, i couldn't be happier with the phone like that. I know there is the holiraider and it looks pretty good but i just don't know if i'm ready to take the plunge for just 1 potential rom, so hope all goes well and things develop but this has so much potential so i think i'm gona hold on to the vivid for now and see this thing come back to normal and flourish

Thank you for the breath of fresh air of logic that has come back to this forum. Sadly, I have been hesitant to visit this forum because of all the drama that has occurred as of late about the development of a better rom for our devices.
As you said, there is a reason we all purchased this device over others and it's well clear that there needs to be more work done for it by those who have the skills to do so.

Well said, although this may have been posted a little to late.
I hope that the dev here does continue, but it is looking bleak!
thanks

Very nice write up / read, I'm new to XDA and android altogether. I think this a great device and the few ROMS I've flashed had little or no issues. The work the DEV's have put into these is incredible to say the least. I would love to see all this mess cleared and bring the Vivid development back on track to unleash the full potential that it really possesses.

..

Thank you for this post. I've been more of a xda lurker for the longest time (on other phone forums) and I was happy to be getting in on the sort of ground floor of development for the vivid.. I walked away for a month to take care of some life items and I came back hoping to see some big improvements, instead there is just a load of closed dev threads. It's sad to see that few people not acting civil put things where we are today.
I really hope you can help bring some sanity back to this sector and with that sanity maybe some of the devs will be back too.

superb article. thanks for the great post. something needed to be said!i would imagine that with 4,000,000+ users were gonna have trolls, so i hope the trolls migrate to your post

Thank You!
There is yet hope, Also as stated by the OP, We all did agree to treating people with respect. This is a huge community with all levels of users from Devs and folks that build awesome things to others just starting out with their 1st smartphone (Simple rule, think before you post). This device line could become great. Please let's all do what we can to help this along.
Cheers
BR

Excellent post, I appreciate the time you took to write it, I wish reading it were a requirement of joining the XDA site. I've been flashing roms since I had an HTC Touch Diamond. I confess to being a flashaholic and my worst fear is to lose access to XDA and it's excellent developers because of the rude and immature members that I see regularly. So many don't bother to read and feel they are entitled to the work that the devs do for free.

All I can say is this is awesome, nice to see someone taking the time to help the vivid dev section.
I so miss the help and work by Pirateghost and Wild Child, and whom ever else was contributing.
While i left for only 2 weeks to setup another phone to use, i still have my raider ready and free to help debug and test as needed. Please don't allow a few bad apples to ruin it for the rest of us.
And if I may, maybe we as xda members can share in the task of keeping the forum in check.
EX: see an inappropriate post, flag it for a moderator to address it.
As for GSLEON3, thanks for taking the time to address the forum. hats off to you.

All t700 owners please read ( devs too )

Hello everyone,
As i am new here in the XDA world i don't know if this thread is legal or not but i will give it a shot, why not. I was always an apple fan boy since ipad 1, but for the past year i was having my doubts about apple. So i did my self a favor and i purchase an android device, more specifically a Samsung galaxy tab s 8.4 ( wifi only ) or aka ( SM-T700). I did a heave research before i purchased it and i realized it was the best thing under 10". ( i knew i was a getting a TW device )
After my purchase i realised i was not happy at all with the performance of the tablet and a friend suggested XDA as he is using it heavily for his own devices ( tab s, moto g 1st, kindle fire ) He was super pleased with the work of all the devs in here so i said why not, i will join.
After going through all the threads one by one, and reading every single post in them ( talking about T700 threads only ) i realized that the devs that are so effortlessly working on the ROMS and kernels they either don't have the tablet to test or they are not so motivated as they used to be, mainly because people demand things from them without giving back. I recently read in a thread a developer trying to defend his position about his ROM and another guy talking to him about the ROM and the battery life like sh**. Well if it was me i would easily ask from XDA to ban that user. After witnessing that i was like "WT* Dude"... Anw what i am trying to say here don't demand if you don't give, just wait patiently. These 3 paragraphs was only my introduction to my main point.
Since i want to thank our developers and i am talking about 3 here. The guy who makes CM11 @Barracuda77777 , the guy who makes CM12 @eousphoros and the guy who makes the kernels @UpInTheAir . I noticed that these guys are either not motivated enough cause many people don't appreciate or they either don't have the tablet to test and they are waiting for people to test therefore the ROMS come out slower.
My proposal to all of you users here and owners of the T700 version is why not collect some money and buy these guys 1 device each so they mod the hell out of it and everyone can get happier? This is not a charity for them and no they did not ask me to make this thread. I am making this thread because i want to thank them as much as possible for using their spare ours to give FREE their ROMS to all of us. How about we each tip 10-20$ to buy 3 devices and send them to the guys? It's a win-win for all. They get a nice Christmas present as a thank you from all of us and you all get better working roms with a cost of 10-20$
I am willing to collect the money for the guys, so i can get nice deals for the devices. If you are interested send me a PM and i will do my best to find the fastest shipping company in my country so i can deliver the goodies to them
TIME-WASTERS AND HATERS PLEASE DON'T EVEN REPLY TO THIS THREAD. YOU ARE NOT WORTH MY TIME.

Glad for you to be on Xda! I have a T800 (10.5 inch model) and yet we also have roms and kernels from the same devs in this post. They both made a rom/kernels for both models! I'm glad that we have these devs that bring life into our tablets. I dont have any money right now ( not old enough for a job) but Im willing to test roms/ kernels for the devs and report on back for the model I own. Hopefully these devs can get what they deserve. We are lucky to already have such awesome roms and kernels and some other tablets do not even have cm11 yet. Glad that you made this post! It could help the devs get what they deserve because of what they have done to our devices and gave life to them. ?

It's not always about money or motivation or ungrateful end user.
For me, it's also about time. I have a job that involves traveling away and a family. These things are most important to me.
I already support devices i can't personally test and help with guidance here and there.
There's just not enough time in the day to do more as i have other device I'm developing for.
If anyone wishes to donate, please donate to your favorite recognized charity or XDA for hosting these forums. Without XDA we would have next to nothing.
Happy Christmas to all !

Fellow T700 Owner here.
I too would like to thank the Devs for the hard work they do and XDA for supporting the community by existing.
I am always willing to help out and test out anything and everything.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone.

Really dissapointed
So apparently people don't like to give and get. From what i understood i see 170 views and 3 replies. What about everyone else? Free ROMS with demands? anw.. i ll give this a week and wait to collect money.
Thanks again.

Sporbillis said:
So apparently people don't like to give and get. From what i understood i see 170 views and 3 replies. What about everyone else? Free ROMS with demands? anw.. i ll give this a week and wait to collect money.
Thanks again.
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No bad intent ment here at all...but - Sporbillis, you're a brand new member to XDA. I would think there would be trust issues about sending money to ANYONE let alone a new member just popping up and collecting money. So don't feel like the folks here aren't responding because they're freeloaders....it's just too easy to get ripped off....
Just sayin'

flhthemi said:
No bad intent ment here at all...but - Sporbillis, you're a brand new member to XDA. I would think there would be trust issues about sending money to ANYONE let alone a new member just popping up and collecting money. So don't feel like the folks here aren't responding because they're freeloaders....it's just too easy to get ripped off....
Just sayin'
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea i get that, if i was going to ripoff people i wouldn't get into the fuss of joining xda and specifically the T700 owners. i would go join some other device with much more audience. anw.

I hear the frustration. Personally, I like to see ROMs from someone who is so passionate and motivated about the device that they went out and bought one, is willing to trip the Knox counter, void warranty and possibly brick the device. That person, I hope, would love the device enough to continue with development when most everyone else has moved on to the next latest and greatest device (DanielHK for the Samsung p6800, for example). In addition, the developer has to be thick-skinned enough to read complaints (both constructive and destructive) and deal with widely varying age groups that have different levels of expectations. Even so, for non-programmer types there is much that can be done via modification of the stock ROM, remove bloat, remove Knox, write to sdcard mod, etc. There is a bit of a learning curve.
What is it about the T700 performance that is unsatisfying? Perhaps there is already a solution. New launchers can be easily installed (Nova, for example). Developer options can tweak some limited performance issues. There are build prop and .xml mods also (requires root).

TonyBigs said:
I hear the frustration. Personally, I like to see ROMs from someone who is so passionate and motivated about the device that they went out and bought one, is willing to trip the Knox counter, void warranty and possibly brick the device. That person, I hope, would love the device enough to continue with development when most everyone else has moved on to the next latest and greatest device (DanielHK for the Samsung p6800, for example). In addition, the developer has to be thick-skinned enough to read complaints (both constructive and destructive) and deal with widely varying age groups that have different levels of expectations. Even so, for non-programmer types there is much that can be done via modification of the stock ROM, remove bloat, remove Knox, write to sdcard mod, etc. There is a bit of a learning curve.
What is it about the T700 performance that is unsatisfying? Perhaps there is already a solution. New launchers can be easily installed (Nova, for example). Developer options can tweak some limited performance issues. There are build prop and .xml mods also (requires root).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont get how this reply fits this thread..

Sporbillis said:
I dont get how this reply fits this thread..
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Click to collapse
It fits because one of the developers noted in the original post replied and explained his reasons as to why he (probably) will not participate. He suggested that the donated money go elsewhere. Keep in mind that giving developers a tablet is not, necessarily, "giving back" -- for the developer it is also proposing that they work. Does the request propose giving the developers a tablet with no expectations of a ROM ever being developed for the device and not bothering them if a ROM is not forthcoming? If so, that proposal might be considered "giving back". Otherwise, the proposal is just reducing the material/monetary overhead for the developer but not reducing (or funding) the workload.
If a ROM is required, offer up a substantial bounty worth the developer's time and effort along with the materials -- then there *may* be some takers. That offer might make developers happy. Given the lack of responses at this time it appears that the offer as it stands (funded mainly by others) is not enough.

TonyBigs said:
It fits because one of the developers noted in the original post replied and explained his reasons as to why he (probably) will not participate. He suggested that the donated money go elsewhere. Keep in mind that giving developers a tablet is not, necessarily, "giving back" -- for the developer it is also proposing that they work. Does the request propose giving the developers a tablet with no expectations of a ROM ever being developed for the device and not bothering them if a ROM is not forthcoming? If so, that proposal might be considered "giving back". Otherwise, the proposal is just reducing the material/monetary overhead for the developer but not reducing (or funding) the workload.
If a ROM is required, offer up a substantial bounty worth the developer's time and effort along with the materials -- then there *may* be some takers. That offer might make developers happy. Given the lack of responses at this time it appears that the offer as it stands (funded mainly by others) is not enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now i get your point and you are right. The only purpose of this thread was to help those developers who are developing the rom and struggling without a tablet to actually have a tablet to test but most importantly for us to Say "THANK YOU" to them by giving them the tablet. If they want to work more or less after getting the tablet is their business. I was just kind enough to think about starting this thread. About upintheair i get where he comes from " NO TIME AVAILABLE " and i appreciate his honesty. Even though he has a tablet. The money portion of the thread collected can be given to him if he has a tablet and again as a thank you not as a "please work more"
I hope i was clear enough because i was in a hurry writting.
Thanks

Lack of support/responses

I purchased 2 of these phones in April because there seemed to be a decent support base for it here on XDA. But I have found that the support is lacking and nonexistent in the 3 months since I bought them. Custom ROMS have been posted, only to be left in limbo. Questions from users go totally ignored and unanswered. I am not a developer, so like most users I rely on those of you who are skilled in that expertise for our custom firmware. But I have to say that in the 7 years I have been a member here I have never seen such poor interaction from the developers.
I guess this forum has just become a reflection of the current attitudes lack of respect and concern in the world that exists today.

Try telegram.... There is probably 5 or six threads for our devices....

KtownJeff said:
Try telegram.... There is probably 5 or six threads for our devices....
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Click to collapse
This is the most bland blanket statement being swung around in every ****ing thread. If the developers can not be arsed to actually interact with the community in the forum they posted their ROM in, then they can just stay away entirely. I have no respect for people simply opening a thread and then link people to a telegram group because they are too lazy to actually use a forum.
I'm very tempted to report threads for closure since they appear to be abandoned.
I'd rather have no development than development hiding itself behind a ****ty chat-app.

KtownJeff said:
Try telegram.... There is probably 5 or six threads for our devices....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seriously? Talk about a lame solution.

jadephyre said:
This is the most bland blanket statement being swung around in every ****ing thread. If the developers can not be arsed to actually interact with the community in the forum they posted their ROM in, then they can just stay away entirely. I have no respect for people simply opening a thread and then link people to a telegram group because they are too lazy to actually use a forum.
I'm very tempted to report threads for closure since they appear to be abandoned.
I'd rather have no development than development hiding itself behind a ****ty chat-app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree 100%. :good::good::good::good::good:

jadephyre said:
This is the most bland blanket statement being swung around in every ****ing thread. If the developers can not be arsed to actually interact with the community in the forum they posted their ROM in, then they can just stay away entirely. I have no respect for people simply opening a thread and then link people to a telegram group because they are too lazy to actually use a forum.
I'm very tempted to report threads for closure since they appear to be abandoned.
I'd rather have no development than development hiding itself behind a ****ty chat-app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry you feel this way I was just offering a solution to help you with your issue but you know I do understand because I had the same thought at first but I think it is pretty cool to have real time discussion.....
Also our device is not limited to just this thread..... I spend my day switching ROMs with trebel based GSI....Oh and they get updated security every month and using our device all of the moto gestures show up in the rom because we still use the moto vender..... And if you really want to see some development start reading about compiling kernels..right now Im building a custom kernel for device.....

pastorbob62 said:
I purchased 2 of these phones in April because there seemed to be a decent support base for it here on XDA. But I have found that the support is lacking and nonexistent in the 3 months since I bought them. Custom ROMS have been posted, only to be left in limbo. Questions from users go totally ignored and unanswered. I am not a developer, so like most users I rely on those of you who are skilled in that expertise for our custom firmware. But I have to say that in the 7 years I have been a member here I have never seen such poor interaction from the developers.
I guess this forum has just become a reflection of the current attitudes lack of respect and concern in the world that exists today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
maybe you could become a developer yourself and show us how it should be done?
which in case of Motorola is to develop software for like 10 devices a year + interact on forums etc. + try to solve all kinds of people's problems
all in your free time, not being paid for anything
Now I'm curious

Lupask said:
maybe you could become a developer yourself and show us how it should be done?
which in case of Motorola is to develop software for like 10 devices a year + interact on forums etc. + try to solve all kinds of people's problems
all in your free time, not being paid for anything
Now I'm curious
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I knew the second I wrote my original post some clueless person would come back in defense of poor support and lack of interaction playing the "developers are overworked and do it for nothing" card. And then there is the ever present "if you don't like the way it's done do the developing yourself" joker. But it doesn't fly when somebody posts 3 or 4 ROMs and then totally ignores all questions and issues within this forum not just for days but for weeks and months. How about focusing on 1 ROM and dealing with it rather than over extending oneself and dealing with nothing? As I said, this is the first device I have seen this type of poor support and neglect. That is because on all of my previous 5 MOTOROLA, 2 Asus, 1 Huaweii, and 3 Samsung devices the developers stayed focused on 1 or 2 ROMS and didn't try to recreate the world. And in all of those cases I and many other users donated generously to the developers. Doing a lousy job at something you commit to and then saying "I don't get paid anyway" is not excusable. And defending the poor support and lousy interactions with those lame excuses just makes you a part of the problem. As I said in my post, it is simply a reflection of the attitudes in the world around us.

The problem is that too many users don't even know what they're doing. They do not want to acquire knowledge themselves and expect a solution and an explanation for everything.
By now I say to many users here they should inform themselves. This forum can provide help with problems, but cannot explain everything to everyone. The most common questions here are "I have a bootloop", "what does
encryption mean and why I'm not able to access my data", "why TWRP should only be booted and why does flashing to recovery fail", "should I install TWRP again after I updated my device" and so on... There is currently a user who is trying to mount TWRP in Windows and tells me at the same time that he has already rooted various devices.
Somewhere in between is a single user of 20 with a real problem but he doesn't get noticed.

pastorbob62 said:
I knew the second I wrote my original post some clueless person would come back in defense of poor support and lack of interaction playing the "developers are overworked and do it for nothing" card. And then there is the ever present "if you don't like the way it's done do the developing yourself" joker. But it doesn't fly when somebody posts 3 or 4 ROMs and then totally ignores all questions and issues within this forum not just for days but for weeks and months. How about focusing on 1 ROM and dealing with it rather than over extending oneself and dealing with nothing? As I said, this is the first device I have seen this type of poor support and neglect. That is because on all of my previous 5 MOTOROLA, 2 Asus, 1 Huaweii, and 3 Samsung devices the developers stayed focused on 1 or 2 ROMS and didn't try to recreate the world. And in all of those cases I and many other users donated generously to the developers. Doing a lousy job at something you commit to and then saying "I don't get paid anyway" is not excusable. And defending the poor support and lousy interactions with those lame excuses just makes you a part of the problem. As I said in my post, it is simply a reflection of the attitudes in the world around us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But this is a different issue. I can't and will not defend that someone creates a ROM, publishes it and forgets about it. And then another, and another. I am also sad that dev's time is spent/wasted on something useless at the end of the day, while they could help to develop something actually alive. I am also sad that there are numberless modifications and tinkering, all of them dealing with similar bugs and problems, while having minimal differences, and not uniting together to create something larger than the sum of all these parts.
And yes, , your original post did sound like whining at other people that they don't create enough software for *your* specific phone and help you solve your specific problems while giving zero effort to solve them yourself. Which is, sadly, a common attitude indeed.
As for me, I don't want to depend on people from XDA to do something that your phone manufacturer was paid to do - if you want support, ask it from there. The phones are not as popular to attract lots of independent development (I believe Motorola is partly to blame here, as they spam the market with too many devices). I'm afraid this is all we got.

Lupask said:
But this is a different issue. I can't and will not defend that someone creates a ROM, publishes it and forgets about it. And then another, and another. I am also sad that dev's time is spent/wasted on something useless at the end of the day, while they could help to develop something actually alive. I am also sad that there are numberless modifications and tinkering, all of them dealing with similar bugs and problems, while having minimal differences, and not uniting together to create something larger than the sum of all these parts.
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Click to collapse
Agree 100%. That is basically what my post is trying to address.
Lupask said:
And yes, , your original post did sound like whining at other people that they don't create enough software for *your* specific phone and help you solve your specific problems while giving zero effort to solve them yourself. Which is, sadly, a common attitude indeed.
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Click to collapse
Good heavens no! If you look at my history and go back the 7 years I have been here, you would find that I have been and will remain very active in helping others and solving my own problems. I have taken part in Alpha and Beta testing for developers. Have I gotten lazy on occasion and asked before searching? Sure. Who hasn't? But that is most definitely not my standard mode of operation. I make it a habit to search and research as much as possible before I ask.
Lupask said:
As for me, I don't want to depend on people from XDA to do something that your phone manufacturer was paid to do - if you want support, ask it from there. The phones are not as popular to attract lots of independent development (I believe Motorola is partly to blame here, as they spam the market with too many devices). I'm afraid this is all we got.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, unless you are dealing with issues brought on by unlocking, rooting and installing custom software/roms. Go to Motorola and ask a question about those issues and you will get shut down immediately. "Sorry! Your warranty is void and we can't help you. And many users (like myself) buy models not available in the USA so there is no support from Motorola at the get go.
That is the whole purpose of XDA. Community support and development. Granted, there are those who will abuse it and not make any effort whatsoever to find the answer and fix it themselves. They deserve to be ignored. But if you put a mod or rom or app on here then by golly, at least support it.
I believe we are pretty much on the same page just took a couple of exchanges to get here. :good:

..
---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------
I reached a point where I basically gave up. I'm not a developer but I like to fiddle with my devices and add a better experience with customizations. I had a Moto G5S and tried to add a custom ROM based on Android 10 but none of them worked well. I spent an absurd amount of time trying to make them work at least in an acceptable way, with no success. I gave up, reinstalled the original 8.1 Android version and moved to a Moto G7 Plus with no root and only GCAM. When I get tired of Android 10, I'll buy a new cellphone with Android 11 or 12.
The lessons I learned are:
- I cannot complain for what I received for free
- I cannot oblige someone to fix for free what is not working for me
- it seems to be increasingly difficult to make things work if you have no access to the internal development of a cellphone's manufacturer
- I will change my purchasing habits: I prefer to buy another device after 1,5 years with the latest Android and hardware specs than fighting to make my 3-yr old device run with a modified system that has no guarantee from the manufacturer.
- I do not have the money to buy expensive devices, I prefer to buy something above the basic and replace it more frequently.
- I respect the developers and I'm not mad at them, I am sure they are learning a lot when creating these custom ROMs and this will take them to a better job (I hope)
- I agree that XDA has changed for worse in the aspect of "community-based development". The interaction in the forum is really going downward, this is the same with other forums I participate. People are moving to "immediate answer" options like whatsapp and Telegram, which I hate because they do not have the organized structure and historic documentation a forum provides.
---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------
I reached a point where I basically gave up. I'm not a developer but I like to fiddle with my devices and add a better experience with customizations. I had a Moto G5S and tried to add a custom ROM based on Android 10 but none of them worked well. I spent an absurd amount of time trying to make them work at least in an acceptable way, with no success. I gave up, reinstalled the original 8.1 Android version and moved to a Moto G7 Plus with no root and only GCAM. When I get tired of Android 10, I'll buy a new cellphone with Android 11 or 12.
The lessons I learned are:
- I cannot complain for what I received for free
- I cannot oblige someone to fix for free what is not working for me
- it seems to be increasingly difficult to make things work if you have no access to the internal development of a cellphone's manufacturer
- I will change my purchasing habits: I prefer to buy another device after 1,5 years with the latest Android and hardware specs than fighting to make my 3-yr old device run with a modified system that has no guarantee from the manufacturer.
- I do not have the money to buy expensive devices, I prefer to buy something above the basic and replace it more frequently.
- I respect the developers and I'm not mad at them, I am sure they are learning a lot when creating these custom ROMs and this will take them to a better job (I hope)
- I agree that XDA has changed for worse in the aspect of "community-based development". The interaction in the forum is really going downward, this is the same with other forums I participate. People are moving to "immediate answer" options like whatsapp and Telegram, which I hate because they do not have the organized structure and historic documentation a forum provides.

because there seemed to be a decent support base for it here on XDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You judged and found out you were wrong.
But I have found that the support is lacking and nonexistent in the 3 months since I bought them. Custom ROMS have been posted, only to be left in limbo. Questions from users go totally ignored and unanswered.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How much exactly did you pay that made you entitled to this kind of support?
But I have to say that in the 7 years I have been a member here I have never seen such poor interaction from the developers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do not really have to say anything but forums are there for anyone to speak his mind. Even people who think they are entitled to stuff they actually aren't
I guess this forum has just become a reflection of the current attitudes lack of respect and concern in the world that exists today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lack of respect. REALLY?
Get off your high horse!
Your post itself is a reflection of another trend:
Unfounded entitlement.

Database Develop

welcome