Database Develop

An Open Letter to Microsoft - Let us develop WM6 please

Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1

cool letter.. cant wait to see wat kind of responce you get.

Diddo.......Let's see if the big boss will let us play.

Great Letter Aggie. I would think the MS resposne would be pretty good about this. MS has been pretty good with other technologies lately in opening it up and taking feedbacks from users.
One thing is for sure. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE BETTER THAN HERE TO TEST/TWEAK/BETTER WINDOWS MOBILE.
We do have a vast number of volunteers here that do a helluva job in making these roms faster and better.

What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!

!! Sweet !!
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
They need more of this for WM device settings...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2362050448778905490&q=steve+ballmer+remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo

rizzo said:
What makes you think they aren't doing this already?
Where do you think this 'leaked' version originated from, anyway? And why is it literally painless to install?
MS has employees who actively troll this group (among others) to get feedback..good and bad...for their "pre-release" warez. They just lurk in the shadows (rightfully so, speaking up would make them the whipping boys of the forum...)
Since the hardware mfr and/or the service provider of the device is the one who decides whether or not to 'upgrade' your device with the latest and greatest OS (based heavily on whether or not they want to support multiple s/w versions) MS can't make any money off simply selling their product to the end user. Unlike the PC model of selling you a retail boxed version of a new operating system for your PC.
No money to be made = no money to be lost. Think about it.
All that being said, the most important thing to remember is that they will ACTIVELY shut down any site hosting their software without their permission. If they fail to enforce their copyrights by legal means, it further weakens any argument in future lawsuits regarding others who pirate their software. They will also quickly piss off the likes of t-mobile, cingular, and other service providers if they provide the end-user a means of bypassing their process of certifying the stability of their phones.
They will continue to operate in this way for a long time. They get free beta testing from 'hardcore users' while looking the other way. It's genius if you ask me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you might be right. But, aren't they allowing WM6 on the Universal? That may change the equation.

My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.

I support Texasaggie1
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?

pzucchel said:
Hi, i would like to support the request. It makes damn sense, I am an old-time Linux user and i think that Microsoft would show great marketing sense in allowing us to test it. I will not argue about the advantages and benefits,
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Thought is NO-ONE. As all we do is RUN these ROMS and Tweak them to perform in the best way that they can. All that everyone does here is readily available and can/could/HAS been adopted by Developers, Networks & Manufacturers alike.

jwzg said:
My gut feeling is that one or more of the ROM cookers in here works for M$. You don't know some of the things they do without having a lot more background knowledge than the average joe. There's nothing wrong with that, of course...that means better products for you and me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt any of the 'cookers' work for Microsoft. Although difficult, it's fairly common to reverse-engineer someone elses code and mold it into something that you want. Once you get the hang of how things work and make the script kiddie tools to do it, it's fairly simple.
One thing that a cooker can't do is write an entire OS then 'leak' it onto the internet and call it WM6, this is done by someone entrusted with copies of it for legitimate purposes. Blame HTC or any of the ODM's if you want, but it my opinion, it would be a waste of your time.
If you want to infect the world, you must spread your disease. MS has come a long way in this regard with the likes of gaining on Palm, RIM, symbian, etc.
Microsoft has always leveraged piracy to work in their favor...those that can't get the disease (or otherwise can't afford it) will have access to it. If you can't make the sale, might as well get them hooked fo' free!

pzucchel said:
and one simple question: Who would be negatively affected by it? HTC? Microsoft? other users? Network providers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.

texasaggie1 said:
Dear Microsoft,
I am writing this letter to ask permission for Xda-developers.com and it's users to officially use, develop, and share the new Wizard WM6 roms on this site. I know that you are currently not allowing us to do so. I believe it is in your best interest to let us. Here is why:
1) User Testing - allowing us to develop and share the WM6 rom for the wizard will open your product to a huge amount of testing. On this site, we don't just use our phones, we push them hard. We love to see the most we can get out of them. We get bored with what we have, so we load a new rom and see what it can do. 3 days later we load another. You will not find a better place on the Internet to test your roms.
Also, it will allow us to test compatibility with new and existing software. This site is already reference material for most software developers and even HTC. In our never-ending search for information about these devices we find things such as tricks to make them better, security holes, and all sorts of information that 3rd party companies can use.
All of this work is done by volunteers who, although they may gripe from time to time, feel a sense of satisfaction for doing this work. You can't buy their level of loyalty.
2) Goodwill - Allowing us to use, develop and share the WM6 rom will create a massive amount of goodwill on this site for your company. Since you are the biggest player in the game, you are currently subject to TONS of criticism everywhere you turn. People usually see you as this huge faceless corporation that wants to control people and take their money. I read the blogs of Microsoft employees and know this is really not the case. Allowing us to work on this rom openly will create goodwill that no ad campaign can buy.
3) Money - The bottom line is that you will save money. Money that might be spent on research will be saved by free research on this site. Money spent on ads to generate goodwill will be saved by the goodwill generated on this site.
I appreciate your consideration of this matter. Please let us know of your decision.
Sincerely,
texasaggie1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agreed texasaggie1 said but dont forget in all devices rom ,MS just part of 70% of rom others 30% belong to HTC,T-mobile...etc, the reason we need to cook rom in here not really problem belong to MS that belong to HTC,
MS understand HTC was first OEM used Mobile window,but MS can understand why we need to cook rom in here ? do you hear anyone cook Window XP ? MS must understand device rom is different with Window XP,MS just proved PB and AKU ,device also need driver and some of OEM program otherwide device(phone) will not working,you can see in rom kithen had OS/LOC/OEM , SO belong to MS,LOC/OEM belong to HTC,T-Mobile..etc. this is different with window XP,if today all rom made by MS than no one can said anything,but not in this case ,we in here not only help MS also help HTC,T-Mobile...etc. too, they got how many free employees to worked with them,now Apple will come out IPhone ,I dont think MS want to lose market to them,we in here 100% support to MS , I dont understand what piont they refuse us ?

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I would be very suprised if they gave this consideration, they will wait for the 'next gen' devices up to come to release it on in my opinion.
Besides we must face it, most people that are using these phones these days do not flash their device, nonetheless, know what it is.
We are the few flashing samurai that cannot live with a stock rom, and want to "juice" our hardware to get our money's worth. \m/
I will say If you live in the US now you will see that parents are buying their teenage kiddies smartphones/ppcs now for a couple reasons. 1) To ward off an appl music/video product, and of course. 2) To be able to reach them anywhere with the phone service.
It would have been funny to say that most people on this site are using/have used the wm6 leak already, so we might as well work together for free, for a learning purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Good reply.
I know all of this is a long shot. But it's been bugging me lately. I had to post this letter.

Flashing/Testing New OS = Good Experience
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry, please don't take this the wrong way. But this is one of the silliest ideas I have seen in a long time. Think for a moment about the support headaches from even 20% of their users playing with ROMS versus the 2-3% that do it now. And you think some of the NOOBS on here get annoying forget about regular users!!!
I think things are about perfect the way they are. A little "unofficial" help lets us hardcore users reap the benefits of upgrading with out the hassles. Trust me if ROM upgrades became more official they would kill groups like this. They would charge for the upgrades and they would want to control them like they do desktop OS upgrades. I say no thanks to that. It's like the early days of Napster, or more recently You Tube taking down tons of videos, those things were much better before they became mainstream and then they had to change.
I will say this. MS should figure out how to make the CID & SIM Lock a separate part of the rom like the radio and bootloader, make it totally separate from the Rom & Extended Rom itself. That would allow tweakers to change roms with out worrying about Locks and would make the phone companies happy too. And I am sure users that need unlocking would figure that out too

BA_Flash_GOD said:
I think M$ should show more of the average users that yes, you can upgrade/downgrade your current rom very easily. This would let all users have the option to use any individual one to meet their needs. I'm guessing another big issue would be CID locking though, wouldn't that be another breech of contract for M$ to the original phone service providers? What you guys think
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyone who wants to can use google. I seriously do not think that its neccesary to let the world know. they could know... if they wanted to. Bad idea imho.

rizzo said:
Sorry, but I had to chime in on this one, too. Maybe some people don't see it, but we ARE actively beta testing their software.
If you develop software, and want to have beta testing do any good, there needs to be some kind of order. Visiting forums to find information is chaotic at best. Sifting through page after page of hijacked threads and RTFM type questions isn't going to yield the feedback a company needs to squash the bugs out of code. If enough people complain about a particular 'feature' then it might get the company to try and replicate it in-house, but its very unlikely that you'd ever hear anything back from them.
End-users modifying their devices by flashing it with unreleased firmware it wasn't originally designed for is dangerous, and can cause a ripple effect if it's not managed. As long as the company stands by its "hey, we never said this code was finished - not to mention you're not supposed to have it" stance, it can shield them from almost ALL liability in you bricking your phone. In the mean time, hardcore folks like us will continue shoving the bleeding-edge not-ready-ware into our phones in order to tell the tales of our adventures to all that will listen - and MS will continue "leaking" their warez into the wild.
The minute Microsoft starts bending these rules for folks like us, then they are going to have to answer to THEIR customers (HTC, network providers, etc) when the nOObs start flooding their call centers for warranty-return requests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but I have to side with rizzo on this one. They will never officially come out and allow this because they can't. You are asking them to agree to a. Code leaking, b. Code theft, c. Software Piracy in a sense (since you have to not acquired a legal copy and have not paid licenses for it), d. Copyright infringement. What company in their right mind say yes to this and open up the flood gates? And like rizzo said allow them to be liable for consumer or partner lawsuits as well?
As much as I agree with the original heartfelt post, we say what we say for argument's sake. They have already responded numerous times by allowing this and turning a blind eye. Every now and then they complain, either because we did step on some toes or because they officially have to say this is not allowed. If they really tried, they could cause some serious legal trouble. They choose not to, for a all the reasons mentioned in the original post.
So don't ask the impossible. Don't expect windows to become an open source application or windows mobile to release official betas to the public (not for sometime anyway). Pigs just don't fly sorry.

I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.

It's a long shot
igalan said:
I have to agree with Rizzo. Besides, Microsoft won't spend resources on releasing ROMs for old devices, giving them for free to users and then having no way to recover some of the investment, because the Wizard is being phased out. It doesn't make sense.
However Microsoft can open a program for betatesting their ROMs, that is completely possible. A program that involves registering every user that gets the ROM, once we agree not to ask for support and all the legal stuff. And provide the means to keep track of bug reporst, etc. But still if you want to beta test something, you want to do it on the device where it's intended to be used the final release, and I don't think our Wizards are going to get an official WM 6 upgrade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a long shot, but they do allow WM6 in the Universal thread. Maybe they will for us. Maybe we try again to post WM6 roms in a few weeks and see what happens??

Paid apps theory..

The reason that google hasn't dished out the paid apps like planned was most likely because 1 person could pay for it, download it and then spread it around to the rest of the android community.
I mean how could they prevent us (especially with root) from doing that.
I think that either they are gonna put a complete end to root (if possible),
or they're gonna completely redo the whole market and how it works.
Maybe make it so apps are originally apks but when installed they leave behind the installer and can not be installed again by finding the apk in the internal storage.
What are your thoughts?

Could be and what you said is being discussed in another part of dream forum. Tell you the truth I've been all over the internet constantly looking for paid apps and there is not much out there. Guitar hero said it was coming to android in jan and still isnt out yet! If they do that im sure someone will find a way around that as well though haha

stats555 said:
Could be and what you said is being discussed in another part of dream forum. Tell you the truth I've been all over the internet constantly looking for paid apps and there is not much out there. Guitar hero said it was coming to android in jan and still isnt out yet! If they do that im sure someone will find a way around that as well though haha
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=478445

Pay or not to pay for an application have been discussed for year and I believe there are people out there are willing to pay for the application they need, even the warez version is just some clicks away from them. You see how PC's software industry lives up? I cant find any software that cant be cracked. It's just a matter of time if someone is really wanna do that.
So it should be the same case here.

While I think there will be a common security thread in the Market I think developers need to also enact their own security to prevent priates. If there is one security procedure then it only takes one crack to take everything.

They will do like a DRM on the apks kind of like the iphone has now.

Honestly, anything they would do would probably be wasted time.
The iPhone anti-piracy mechanisms have been defeated recently, and whatever Google would put forth would likely be taken apart. There's just no way to prevent it, same as the problems that other platform developers have experienced.
There will always be people who pay for their apps, and there will always be people who pirate them, and very little can be done to prevent that.

It'll probably be something like every time an app is bought it is signed with an encrypted code that is given to each individual phone and coupled with a single application.
However, would each app have a different algorithm or would it all be one big pot.
Either way..
That would work rather well
Unfortunately for me though.
I am a pirate mateyys ARRrrrrr
haitiankid4lyf.
With as little offense as possible. You understand the stupidity of your screenname right? You're a kid? For lyf?
Peter pan or somethin?

topdnbass said:
It'll probably be something like every time an app is bought it is
haitiankid4lyf.
With as little offense as possible. You understand the stupidity of your screenname right? You're a kid? For lyf?
Peter pan or somethin?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
XD That made me laugh.

I agree. Remember though, there's not THAT many rooted users out there. I think that as long as the apps are priced reasonably, they'll be fine.

[XAP] Nokia Lumia Apps (Dark Knight, Nokia Trailers....)

The newly released apps for Nokia Lumia Series
Works perfectly on my hd7

Thank you for the xap files. They work great on my Omnia 7.

Thanks for sharing. Its working fine in my Omnia W

Works great on HTC Radar c110e thank you

This is equivalent to pirating. And I've said it before, I'll say it again - it's disgusting how XDA has selective treatment with it comes to pirating. Posting apps that are exclusive to other OEMs is the equivalent of stealing, because these apps drive the business for those phones and differentiate them. I really hope this ends soon. At least here.

FiyaFleye said:
This is equivalent to pirating. And I've said it before, I'll say it again - it's disgusting how XDA has selective treatment with it comes to pirating. Posting apps that are exclusive to other OEMs is the equivalent of stealing, because these apps drive the business for those phones and differentiate them. I really hope this ends soon. At least here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you already have many homebrew apps which change your OEM marketplace in the phone itself.....so according to you developing a custom ROM with various types of unlock is also piracy?
and mind that XDA has a very good clear policy about piracy!!!

FiyaFleye said:
This is equivalent to pirating. And I've said it before, I'll say it again - it's disgusting how XDA has selective treatment with it comes to pirating. Posting apps that are exclusive to other OEMs is the equivalent of stealing, because these apps drive the business for those phones and differentiate them. I really hope this ends soon. At least here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Eh - not really. Nokia distributes the apps for free to the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who have Nokia phones. And yes, to some degree, the apps drive a small bit of business for Nokia. But if you already own a Samsung Omnia, you're not really taking money out of the pocket of Nokia if you sideload their trailer app to your phone. And I SERIOUSLY doubt there's anyone here reading these threads going "well, I WAS going to go tomorrow to get a Lumia 900, but now that I can sideload the Dark Knight app, I'm going to get a Titan instead!"
I get your point, but I think its being a little too picky, especially with the Dark Knight or Trailers app mentioned here. Now - Nokia Drive.....maybe. That truly is an app worth a tangible dollar amount and could, theoretically, be piracy.

sirajgoku said:
you already have many homebrew apps which change your OEM marketplace in the phone itself.....so according to you developing a custom ROM with various types of unlock is also piracy?
and mind that XDA has a very good clear policy about piracy!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, XDA has the most selective, BS piracy policy on the net. Most forums are either entirely against or for piracy, XDA decides when to enfore their policies. Example? The HD7 has Windows Phone ROMs floating around this forum. Windows Phone isn't Android, it isn't open source, and it's a licensed OS. None of these HD7 ROMs were licensed and therefore should be banned from here. I understand custom ROMs for actual WP7 devices because hey, at least you bought the device.
bigkevbosky said:
Eh - not really. Nokia distributes the apps for free to the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who have Nokia phones. And yes, to some degree, the apps drive a small bit of business for Nokia. But if you already own a Samsung Omnia, you're not really taking money out of the pocket of Nokia if you sideload their trailer app to your phone. And I SERIOUSLY doubt there's anyone here reading these threads going "well, I WAS going to go tomorrow to get a Lumia 900, but now that I can sideload the Dark Knight app, I'm going to get a Titan instead!"
I get your point, but I think its being a little too picky, especially with the Dark Knight or Trailers app mentioned here. Now - Nokia Drive.....maybe. That truly is an app worth a tangible dollar amount and could, theoretically, be piracy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Problem is that Nokia Drive, Maps, Transit, Navigon, etc have all been available on these boards. I understand the minimal impact of the Dark Knight app, yes, but I'm complaining about the thought process. It happened at the beginning of the WP launch when these apps DID have an impact. And, I'm sorry to tell you, but Nokia's exclusive apps are a BIG part of their success - along with their customer/device support.

Totally agree about the Lumia exclusive app to be banned from the forum, if people surf some Chinese sites to get them, then so be it but xda shouldn't allow such stuff.

I cant believe how "sissified" people have become! I remember back in the day when anything goes! Even on Windows , hell I never bought a key for Windows until a few years ago , sadly most of you so-called open sourcers would rather pay an outfit like redhat a license then do it yourself , even xbox has **** canned cheats ,how weak! If its out there go get it , I bought this phone (and was ripped off,not by the manufacturer but by the carrier) ! Im sick of the crying about piracy ,if you want something on the net you can find it!
This forum is about developing , Im sorry but in order to develop some times you have to cheat to get where you are , anyone remember Tesla?

^ you vote Democrat huh, because you obviously love those handouts. Its disgusting how somebody can condone theft, you'd be *****ing up a storm if it were your product. You'd be the real sissy.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

Thank iu

FiyaFleye said:
Actually, XDA has the most selective, BS piracy policy on the net.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
FiyaFleye, don't try to be holier than the Pope first. Nokia people are monitoring xda daily; they are able to write complain to the xda mods if they found a "piracy" here.
Second, it's not a "General" forum but "Apps & Games"; so don't comment here but open your "blah-blah-blah" topic in General and continue your fight against "BS xda" and "piracy"...

Ok guys... Because the debate raises points on both sides, i am going to close it for now, and confer will colleagues about how to best handle this...

About App Piracy

Me and my friend, (who is a budding app developer for android) ran into discussion about "Android JB vs WP8", and after many aspects, we came to "developer benefits", there I said that Android is not good for developers bcoz people SIDELOAD app and nothing can detect a pirated app. That's the sad truth.
But on WP8 there's no way to SIDELOAD app, so No piracy of apps on WP8.
My friend said there are WP8 custom ROMS available and WP8 can also be rooted. So there maybe ways when people use Pirated apps on WP8 also.
So who is correct Me or my friend? Are there ways on WP8.
Sent from my GT-S5570 using xda app-developers app

Apourv said:
Me and my friend, (who is a budding app developer for android) ran into discussion about "Android JB vs WP8", and after many aspects, we came to "developer benefits", there I said that Android is not good for developers bcoz people SIDELOAD app and nothing can detect a pirated app. That's the sad truth.
But on WP8 there's no way to SIDELOAD app, so No piracy of apps on WP8.
My friend said there are WP8 custom ROMS available and WP8 can also be rooted. So there maybe ways when people use Pirated apps on WP8 also.
So who is correct Me or my friend? Are there ways on WP8.
Sent from my GT-S5570 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're correct, can't root and you can only sideload apps if you're a developer. No custom roms, no root, your friend's a fandroid who's insecure about their OS.

I think disabling Sideloading is better. Because Wallet services are coming to mobile so chances are high that someone might make app which will hack mobile payment passwords and accounts, using app which people sideload. This might make android insecure, when making NFC payments.
Sent from my GT-S5570 using xda app-developers app

Disable sideloading? And then how are dev supposed to test their apps on their phones ? - the emulator is not a good choice in some cases.
Also, there are no custom roms YET, but I am pretty sure there will be. There's nothing in this world that can be protected from hacking

timotei21 said:
Disable sideloading? And then how are dev supposed to test their apps on their phones ? - the emulator is not a good choice in some cases.
Also, there are no custom roms YET, but I am pretty sure there will be. There's nothing in this world that can be protected from hacking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Developers can unlock their phones. Others can't.

Apourv said:
Me and my friend, (who is a budding app developer for android) ran into discussion about "Android JB vs WP8", and after many aspects, we came to "developer benefits", there I said that Android is not good for developers bcoz people SIDELOAD app and nothing can detect a pirated app. That's the sad truth.
But on WP8 there's no way to SIDELOAD app, so No piracy of apps on WP8.
My friend said there are WP8 custom ROMS available and WP8 can also be rooted. So there maybe ways when people use Pirated apps on WP8 also.
So who is correct Me or my friend? Are there ways on WP8.
Sent from my GT-S5570 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Blocking load of apps is a huge OVERKILL.
Say I wand to write an app, and distribute it freely, and do not want to put it on the market ?
What then ?
Besides that - if the IPhone with all it's locks and vaults can be set to load apps outside the Apple market,
it is safe to say that WinPhone will have the same crack.
Locking the device and limiting the user is a bad thing, and besides alienating your user base it will not do much.
Alienating your user base is never a good tactic, they will leave.
(People who plan to get WinPhone are most likely people who used WinMo - that was totally open to customization and apps from wherever)

Some developers looked into breaking the security on Nokia's WP7 phones and decided it would be to hard but of course there might be ways to do it anyway and allow custom ROMs. Aside from that Marketplace XAPs originally could be modified to be sideloaded on WP7 but this has changed several months ago, when Microsoft started to encrypt the XAP files.
As for modified firmware Microsoft is using Secure Boot to tackle the problem at a much lower level than Android and iOS devices do. Due to that it might be quite some time before anyone figures out a way to do it. And even phones like the HTC One X have not yet been broken (at least the versions that use Nvidias Tegra 3). It was similar with several Sony devices.
But in the end to enable this on a WP8 device it would mean HSPL, CustomROM and modified XAP-Files to allow for pirated Apps. Comparing this to Android where you only modify the APK and allow sideloading using a Checkbox I believe we will a lot more pirated Apps on Android than on WP.
As for: I want to provide my App for free without using the Marketplace - ähm... what would be the benefit to the user? Aside from Hacks they benefit from the fact that Apps are tested for stability, to be Malware-Free and that you can discover them without too much effort right from your phone.
The only thing I believe you're right is that actually lots of people will go for an OS where they can pirate Apps easily. There are enough threads around here were people tell you upfront that they believe that having paid several 100 $ for a device entitles them to get the software for free.

StevieBallz said:
....
As for: I want to provide my App for free without using the Marketplace - ähm... what would be the benefit to the user? Aside from Hacks they benefit from the fact that Apps are tested for stability, to be Malware-Free and that you can discover them without too much effort right from your phone.
....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, right.
Like we saw on apple store, and the android market.
(you must be either kidding, or naive)
And as for users thinking paying few 100$ for a device and thinking it entitles them for free apps - well -
people became used to having free programs, and there are many good free programs.
Besides that - I do not support software piracy, but I do believe that you should have the freedom to do whatever you want with the device you payed a lot of good money for, and that the manufacturer should not put you behind bars and in chains, just so they can make more profit from you.
And dont think otherwise - they lock the device for the sole reason of taking some percentage of the money you pay for the apps,
and no other reason.
So every app would have to pass through their, and only their checkout point, and bring them more money.

Android market has no certification process while Apple's and Microsoft's does.
I didn't try to imply that you would want it for the reason of pirating Apps but for most people this is the reason they desire that feature.
But in the end we're talking about the rationale for developers and that is where your (paid) Apps are a lot better protected on WP or iOS than on Android. If this actually benefits you in the case of WP is a different discussion due to the fact that your potential market is smaller. But given that even though Android has a much bigger marketshare than iOS by now developers make a lot more money on iOS it seems the closed marketplaces actually benefit developers in that regard.

StevieBallz said:
Android market has no certification process while Apple's and Microsoft's does.
I didn't try to imply that you would want it for the reason of pirating Apps but for most people this is the reason they desire that feature.
But in the end we're talking about the rationale for developers and that is where your (paid) Apps are a lot better protected on WP or iOS than on Android. If this actually benefits you in the case of WP is a different discussion due to the fact that your potential market is smaller. But given that even though Android has a much bigger marketshare than iOS by now developers make a lot more money on iOS it seems the closed marketplaces actually benefit developers in that regard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The same goes for PC apps.
And people still develop apps for PCs.
This is, in my opinion, some kind of propaganda (not to say brainwash) from the manufacturers,
who's only intent is to make more profit for themselves, and want to recruit the developers for their own goal.
Software piracy have been here since forever, and the software industry has always been growing.
I still hold my opinion that the manufacturer must not have me in chains and behind bars.
I believe the manufacturer must let me do whatever I want with my device.
Let me load whatever apps i want, from any source, and not limit me or force me to pay them more and more money over the life of the device.

I'm not saying that it is not a valid desire to be able to do those things - I said it benefits developers if they are not possible. They don't have to care about piracy that much. And instead of putting together a sophisticated scheme to protect their applications (like they have been doing on the PC for more then a decade) they can concentrate on the actual content.
Do you believe PC games that came on floppy discs asked you about keys from the manual just for fun or to avoid copies? Do you believe the industry moved to CDs only because of the additional space or because they could not be easily copied for quite some time? Does Diablo 3 require an online connection because they could not implement a game that could run on the PC only?
Providing those protections in the OS itself takes a big burden off most developers. The 30 % cut Apple or Microsoft take is a big part of what big companies would earn with their software, given that they already have payment solutions in place and might be able to provide storage and bandwidth cheaper. For Indie developers it would be a lot harder to organize all this.
But instead of answering the question on pirac that thread was about y you're completely missing the point and going on a crusade (and your points from a users perspective definitely are valid).

Apourv said:
Me and my friend, (who is a budding app developer for android) ran into discussion about "Android JB vs WP8", and after many aspects, we came to "developer benefits", there I said that Android is not good for developers bcoz people SIDELOAD app and nothing can detect a pirated app. That's the sad truth.
But on WP8 there's no way to SIDELOAD app, so No piracy of apps on WP8.
My friend said there are WP8 custom ROMS available and WP8 can also be rooted. So there maybe ways when people use Pirated apps on WP8 also.
So who is correct Me or my friend? Are there ways on WP8.
Sent from my GT-S5570 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are no WP8 custom ROMs, only WP7, and only for select devices. As far as I know, app piracy was effectively killed off even for a fully "rooted" WP7 device now that the apps come in an encrypted package. WP8 devices with an SD card can sideload apps, but it's a feature, not an illegal act. You get the encrypted package straight from windowsphone.com, and when you sideload it via SD card, it checks with the marketplace to see if you already own this app and if you have purchased it- otherwise you get the trial.
So android is significantly less secure in this area, your friend is wrong.

StevieBallz said:
I'm not saying that it is not a valid desire to be able to do those things - I said it benefits developers if they are not possible. They don't have to care about piracy that much. And instead of putting together a sophisticated scheme to protect their applications (like they have been doing on the PC for more then a decade) they can concentrate on the actual content.
Do you believe PC games that came on floppy discs asked you about keys from the manual just for fun or to avoid copies? Do you believe the industry moved to CDs only because of the additional space or because they could not be easily copied for quite some time? Does Diablo 3 require an online connection because they could not implement a game that could run on the PC only?
Providing those protections in the OS itself takes a big burden off most developers. The 30 % cut Apple or Microsoft take is a big part of what big companies would earn with their software, given that they already have payment solutions in place and might be able to provide storage and bandwidth cheaper. For Indie developers it would be a lot harder to organize all this.
But instead of answering the question on pirac that thread was about y you're completely missing the point and going on a crusade (and your points from a users perspective definitely are valid).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty much this.
As a developer, I love the fact that the WP marketplace protects my app from almost anything a hacker can throw at it, because it protects several aspects I invested in the app:
1) Time. A lot of time. I don't like it when people use what I invested months of research and coding for free, just because they are too lazy to search the marketplace, but are devious enough to google the app and download it from some obscure location (the irony).
2) My intellectual property: I've made the app, therefore I should have complete control over who can download it. How would you feel if you invested a lot in a car, and some random people of the street simply gets in and drives your car away?
3)Coding and researching is certainly not an easy task. If it were, then everyone would be a developer. Pirating my app is like asking me to give away my talents for nothing in return.
Although it is extremely easy for outsiders to judge my app and say it is not worth the money, they really have no idea how much time and effort was put into it. It is a service I provide for you, and as with any service you need to pay for it...upfront or by staring at adds.
Considering that without the OEM I would not be able to create the app at all, and you would not be able to use it either, it is only natural for them to ask a percentage of the profit from the app. It is how business works.

mcosmin222 said:
Pretty much this.
As a developer, I love the fact that the WP marketplace protects my app from almost anything a hacker can throw at it, because it protects several aspects I invested in the app:
1) Time. A lot of time. I don't like it when people use what I invested months of research and coding for free, just because they are too lazy to search the marketplace, but are devious enough to google the app and download it from some obscure location (the irony).
2) My intellectual property: I've made the app, therefore I should have complete control over who can download it. How would you feel if you invested a lot in a car, and some random people of the street simply gets in and drives your car away?
3)Coding and researching is certainly not an easy task. If it were, then everyone would be a developer. Pirating my app is like asking me to give away my talents for nothing in return.
Although it is extremely easy for outsiders to judge my app and say it is not worth the money, they really have no idea how much time and effort was put into it. It is a service I provide for you, and as with any service you need to pay for it...upfront or by staring at adds.
Considering that without the OEM I would not be able to create the app at all, and you would not be able to use it either, it is only natural for them to ask a percentage of the profit from the app. It is how business works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Comparing an App to a car is totally inappropriate.
If someone drove away in your car, you do not have this car anymore.
If someone installed an app you wrote - well, you still have another copy, and can produce a million more copies.

Som30ne said:
Comparing an App to a car is totally inappropriate.
If someone drove away in your car, you do not have this car anymore.
If someone installed an app you wrote - well, you still have another copy, and can produce a million more copies.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He has a very simplistic view on piracy, which is what most people who think they're losing something have. It's hard for them to wrap their heads around new concepts like "pirated does not equal lost sales". It's mostly the RIAA's fault that the practice of sharing is deemed amoral and gave it the misnomer: "piracy". Actual sales lost because of piracy are negligible. I'm not saying it's ok for people to just take without paying, I'm saying you need to realize what is actually happening. Most "pirates" are poor students with no money to spare, kids who have no money of their own, and the most numerous "pirate" of all: those who cannot access a store to legally buy the product.
Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express Pro

Som30ne said:
The same goes for PC apps.
And people still develop apps for PCs.
This is, in my opinion, some kind of propaganda (not to say brainwash) from the manufacturers,
who's only intent is to make more profit for themselves, and want to recruit the developers for their own goal.
Software piracy have been here since forever, and the software industry has always been growing.
I still hold my opinion that the manufacturer must not have me in chains and behind bars.
I believe the manufacturer must let me do whatever I want with my device.
Let me load whatever apps i want, from any source, and not limit me or force me to pay them more and more money over the life of the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. And Also, Poecifer, your just the Fandroid, since the discussion was brought ou with no intention to accuse each other party and start a flame war as usual, so just stfu if you don't have anything useful to say.
As a wp developer, i'd like to say that not beeing able to sideload apps freely at times is just a pain in the a**...personally I own a Sony Xperia J and a Lumia 710...my friend is an Android Dev and doesn't have all this kind of limitation...

Hacker Ethics

In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics

no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.

koftheworld said:
no one is forcing any one to buy anything. this root product didn't cost $0 on the developers end, especially in terms of time. if i put that much time and effort into a product, i would like to be compensated as well. if you don't want to pay the fee, then you don't get root. you were the one that knowingly bought a phone that didn't have an unlockable bootloader and didn't have root. having root and/or bootloader unlock on locked phones is not a right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol

I didn't even read the article that you linked, however, I'd like to remind you that no one is forcing you to purchase anything? This is true with anything and everything. That's the problem with today's society, instant gratification and on the flip-side, a person's perceived right of entitlement. I say this all the time, if you don't like something, vote with your wallet. That goes for anything. I can't stand the fact that athletes and team owners make the amount of money they do, so I no longer pay to go to an event. I no longer pay to purchase swag, etc. I vote with my wallet.
Same here. If people have an issue with being charged for (I can't even call it root access), then don't buy it. It's really that simple.

You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol

Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course I read the post. This is not the golden age of android hacking anymore. Everyone is looking to monetize due to the complexity of actually getting root/bootloader unlock as compared to how the OS was in the beginning. The community, the phones, and the OS were much different in the beginning. At this point in time, I think people who don't have these skills and willingly purchased locked down devices should have their wallets open if they want anything. Maybe with the next big OS we'll see a return to "hacker ethics", but now it's about getting paid for you think your work is worth.

Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.

Akrifay said:
You are correct... poor choice of words in the first line ... They are not Forcing me to do anything. But please try to see past my poor wording and realize the point.... Hacker Ethic ... hack the planet ...free the world ... not OMG i can make money of this! lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand where you are coming from. There are still those that do imbibe those ideals, but most of them have disappeared into nexus land or have taken jobs outside of XDA (like Hash).

Akrifay said:
I think your missing the point ... you even read the wiki article or just the first line of the post and go OMGMYYOUSOUNGRATEFUL lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.

Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had never thought/considered that, but it makes sense.

orangechoochoo said:
Why is it disturbing that you pay for their time and effort working on this? The Sunshine team spent countless ours and bricked countless devices to develop Sunshine. Should they bear the burden just so you can freely use the fruits of their labor?
What I think is disturbing is that people expect hackers and developers to do things for free. They don't have to do what they do. They don't have to put up with rude users (not referring to you). They don't have to release their work to the public. They don't have to reply to countless posts, PMs, and emails. It is a bunch of time they pit into this.
But, but, but...it's their hobby, they like doing it. I like working on cars as a hobby, but it doesn't mean I should change everyone's oil for free.
But, but but...releasing their methods benefits the android community as a whole. Making me give away my time and effort for the good of the community sounds like socialism.
Your reference to the hacking ethics forgets the assumption that other hackers are sharing their work too. Where is your share of the code that you're working on to benefit the hackers? Since there is no code of yours to share you can contribute monetarily, if they require it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have contributed to many a Dev over the years... I am not a Dev per say ... But i believe i am a Hacker by the true definition ... just happens not to be Android Software that i hack. It is amazing work that they do and i am very appreciative for it. But leave it up to the individual to "donate" ... I dont know guess im just an old schooler in a new schooler world lol

Munkee915 said:
Ethics are not rules. You can follow them or not, its up to the individual. That being said, it does say "Information should be free", not that they should work for free. If maiko1 decides to publish information on the exploit he found, i guess that would be following ethics. He doesnt have to create a tool that does the work and release it for free. Hackers still have jobs. they have to buy food and pay rent. Many times hackers will find exploits and leverage them against companies for larger payouts or even a full time gig. In that light, I'm glad he released it, even if it is at a cost, because there's a real chance we might have never seen the exploit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe

I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.

Symbiontsoul said:
I'm all for supporting the devs for their hard work and time. However, I think whats trying to be communicated here is the change in mindset that we have moved to a format of people willing to donate for a project vs. making it mandatory. Again while I do feel those who do the work should get compensated, I am kinda of disappointed in the idea of an X amount of $$. The bounty was set up so people can donate what they can to the project. There will be many people who are willing to pay money but not $20, others may be willing to pay more. With a mandatory set amount you tend to alienate some of the community. Things have changed and it is getting harder to root devices. I know it takes more work. I acknowledge this. However, it does feel that overall sense of community is suffering as a result. I respect the Dev's decision in how to release the root method. However, I am one who will not be rooting my device because my needs just don't require it and therefor I don't feel it would be worth $20 for me to have root. That's just me though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yay im getting through! lol

I forgot about the bounty. Did the guy get it? If so, then I it's odd that he is asking for additional payment too.
Edit- I see that the root bounty thread was closed be cause the rooter is requiring $20 payment t instead.

wow, XDA sure has changed over the years.

Akrifay said:
In regards to the what seems to be a disturbing trend in forcing people to "Buy" their hacks. (If You Wish To Use Them)
I was going to write a big long rambling post about it but i think the link below sums it up pretty good.
I think we have lost our way somewhere along the path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I am to agree with you, I would like to see your free hack/exploit contribution to the community.
You aren't paying for a root method. The root method is explained. You're paying for the product that does it for you.

Akrifay said:
Oh I know! This is great! ABSOLUTELY Ethics are Subjective 100% I agree with you totally ... i guess it just boils down to your definition of right and wrong... Hey i hope he makes a ton of money off it i really do ... Just by my definition i have in MY head i consider it ethically wrong ... IMO hehe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, look at it this way. By the definition you posted, in that information should be free, maiko1 had no further responsibility to the community than to make a post and say "Hey, i found XYZ exploit. Do with it what you will." He did not have to say how that exploit specifically would allow us to gain root access, let alone make a tool that did it for us. All he had to do was publish the information. Then he would have been an "ethical hacker" according to your definition. Now, seeing as how in the post above the one i quoted, you stated you are not an Android developer, even if you had this information available for free, what would you do with it? By your own admittance you wouldnt be able to achieve root with just the information, you still needed a tool to do it for you. Someone has to develop this tool. There are no ethics for "ethical development" and certainly no expectation that it should be free. Developers work for money. Don't confuse hacking with developing. Hacking is finding exploits. Developing tools to take advantage of them is a whole other story.
Also, just to kill the whole "the hack should be free" argument :
As Stallman notes, "free" refers to unrestricted access; it does not refer to price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From the article you linked. You have access to the method and tool, he didnt root his own phone and keep it from the rest of us. Doesnt mean you shouldnt pay for it.

I can't speak for those behind the root "hack", but I know I don't work for free.
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?

adrynalyne said:
Your time isn't worthless, so why should mine?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Furthermore, your skills aren't worthless either, so why should they be free?