Related
Ok, so I took my Inc on it's first run yesterday as a full-time GPS. It sat in the Verizon dock, plugged into my Griffin dual-port USB cig. lighter adapter.
It made the entire 3.5 hour trip, but when I got there, and removed the phone from the charger, it was at 9%. It had started at 100%. So, obviously, the 5V .5A that the Griffin outputs is not enough to run the GPS and at least maintain charge.
Does anyone know where to get a 5V 1A car charger? Unfortunately, most manufacturers don't even list the amperage output of their devices either online, or even on the packaging!
Thanks,
Doc
DocTauri said:
Ok, so I took my Inc on it's first run yesterday as a full-time GPS. It sat in the Verizon dock, plugged into my Griffin dual-port USB cig. lighter adapter.
It made the entire 3.5 hour trip, but when I got there, and removed the phone from the charger, it was at 9%. It had started at 100%. So, obviously, the 5V .5A that the Griffin outputs is not enough to run the GPS and at least maintain charge.
Does anyone know where to get a 5V 1A car charger? Unfortunately, most manufacturers don't even list the amperage output of their devices either online, or even on the packaging!
Thanks,
Doc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sounds like you might be best off with a power inverter and a wall adapter. or you could buy a car that has a 2 prong outlet in it like mine
Teksu said:
sounds like you might be best off with a power inverter and a wall adapter. or you could buy a car that has a 2 prong outlet in it like mine
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As an EE that's really inefficient. Belkin USB Micro Charger does 5V @ 1A max. It's marketed as an iPhone/iPod car charger but it does work for the Incredible since it doesn't have any fancy charger lockouts. There is also a 2 output version with a 1A and 500mA plug.
I bought a Griffin Powerjolt Dual Universal USB Micro from amazon.
I tried to charge my Nook Color, but it wont. It would charge over my laptop (can not find the original charger).
Now, there is a thread on xda and a post on amazon, that talks about modifying the griffin to make it behave like an A/C adapter.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ZEXX...42B9U8Q&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1207298
So I was wondering if that could be the problem and if i should "hack" the griffin charger.
Thanks.
Anyone knows?
kwanbis said:
Anyone knows?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to use the Nook usb cable. It has the extra pins to allow more amps to pass through to charge at ~2 amps, assuming the Griffin is capable of charging at 2 amps. Regular USB cables only allow 500mA through the 5 pin connector.
Has nothing to do with the pins; I picked up one of these Scosche chargers, and found it would not supply the full two amps until after I cracked it open (super easy, actually), and did the USB middle pins solder trick:
http://www.amazon.com/Scosche-reVIVE-Dual-Charger-iPad/dp/B003N7NO4Q
Yes, I did the initial test with the standard charging/data cable that came with my Nook Color.
Why not just go with Kensington powerbolt duo with a 2.1 amp USB output and 1 amp USB output? NC requires at least 1.9A to fast charge.
hwong96 said:
Why not just go with Kensington powerbolt duo with a 2.1 amp USB output and 1 amp USB output? NC requires at least 1.9A to fast charge.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Input voltage range - 12-16V DC at 2A, 5 watts per port (5 volts @ 1 amp)
It seems to be 2A = 2 amps?
kwanbis said:
Input voltage range - 12-16V DC at 2A, 5 watts per port (5 volts @ 1 amp)
It seems to be 2A = 2 amps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Griffin has [email protected] per port for a TOTAL of 2A.
I bought what i thought were a couple higher quality universal chargers. They charge my razr fast but won't charge my nexus 7 at all. I have one of the chargers pulled apart but before I do any soldering I want to make sure -- if I cross the 2 data points will it work?
Well I couldn't wait 10 minutes so I tried. Answer: no. Wtf?
Can anyone tell me how to hack these chargers to make them work? Is there a resistor I need to remove?
Isn't it more likely to be a software thing?
With my samsung Tab 7.7 i couldn't charge it using my ipad charger until a Dev modded the software on the tablet.
are they 2Amp chargers? most universal chargers are only 1Amp
Well whatever the problem is, I want to charge my tablet in more than one place, I want to charge it faster than the 16 hours generic chargers are taking, and I don't want to pay $30 for OEM chargers.
If your tablet is taking 16 hours to fully charge, return it. I can drain mine after heavy use of the day and its still fully charged in under 6 hours.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
@soldeus: There's nothing wrong with my tablet. The OEM charger works fine and some of my generic chargers work, they just don't have the current. (See below)
@vivan: They are 1A chargers, but they should still work. They don't charge at all. The 500ma Blackberry charger I'm using here at work will charge it in about 8 hours.
Ironically the move to almost-universal micro usb chargers has made the market for them even worse. Now, instead of having to buy a new charger every time you buy a new phone, you have to buy a dozen different chargers till you find one that actually works. Like I said, I didn't try to cheap out. I got a high quality charger.
qoncept said:
@soldeus: There's nothing wrong with my tablet. The OEM charger works fine and some of my generic chargers work, they just don't have the current. (See below)
@vivan: They are 1A chargers, but they should still work. They don't charge at all. The 500ma Blackberry charger I'm using here at work will charge it in about 8 hours.
Ironically the move to almost-universal micro usb chargers has made the market for them even worse. Now, instead of having to buy a new charger every time you buy a new phone, you have to buy a dozen different chargers till you find one that actually works. Like I said, I didn't try to cheap out. I got a high quality charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The OEM charger is 2A for a reason. Because the tablet uses more power, it needs more current to charge at a fast pace.
Your generic 1A chargers are probably just enough to keep the tablet powered on, without draining (or charging) the battery.
If you can find a 2A universal charger, it should work just like the OEM one.
reiji said:
The OEM charger is 2A for a reason. Because the tablet uses more power, it needs more current to charge at a fast pace.
Your generic 1A chargers are probably just enough to keep the tablet powered on, without draining (or charging) the battery.
If you can find a 2A universal charger, it should work just like the OEM one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, my 1A chargers are doing NOTHING at all. I plug it in and the charging icon doesn't come on. Reviews have tested these chargers at about 950ma and as I said, my 500ma Blackberry charger isn't too bad.. It's not lack of power, it's something else.
My guess is it has whatever resistor it needs to make it an "ipad" charger. And the vast majority of 2A chargers will, too.
So.. back to my original question: what do I need to do to make this charger charge my tablet? I KNOW it's possible. I just need to find the guy who can tell me how.
I also need a charger for my car, my usb power adapter in the car does not work, need to know what car charger will work as this tablet is supposed to be my car stereo replacement, sucks having to bring your stereo in to charge it and hope it lasts till you get done work
I bought the Scosche dual 10 Watt car charger, isn't here yet though. It does say it wont charge the Samsung tablets, maybe due to the proprietary cord because apparently there is a cord that works with them. It's not a specific ipad charger and does say it works with Android devices and tablets.
On a side note, what's the best way to determine what your N7 is actually charging at?
Both of my generic chargers won't work either, a 2.1A generic iPad charger, and a 1A standard USB charger. Considering it WILL charge off a 500ma USB port, it's not a current/amperage issue, it's a software/proprietary hardware issue.
b22ri22an said:
I also need a charger for my car, my usb power adapter in the car does not work, need to know what car charger will work as this tablet is supposed to be my car stereo replacement, sucks having to bring your stereo in to charge it and hope it lasts till you get done work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I use a verizon branded car charger to charge my N7 but I think they charge $30 for it at the vzw store.
I suggest you read this page as it may have some info to help you modify your charger:
http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/icharge.html
neilrl79 said:
I use a verizon branded car charger to charge my N7 but I think they charge $30 for it at the vzw store.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the cost isn't so much the issue, its the actually working part. do they have one with an angled micro usb so i can mount the tablet in the car properly or preferably a usb adapter one where i can use my own cord
For $30 you could order a handful of different ones on ebay or monoprice and find something that works. But I want a dual charger.
grim82 said:
I suggest you read this page as it may have some info to help you modify your charger:
http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/icharge.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
does that mean a usb adapter that is certified to work with an ipad will work for my n7
b22ri22an said:
does that mean a usb adapter that is certified to work with an ipad will work for my n7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I won't say 100% but I would bet the probability is very high. For the 1A charging they all seemed to play the same game with the voltage on the data lines. Not sure you'll get 2A but you'll at least get 1A.
Edit... maybe not, see this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1781680
I have a philips as351 audio dock that pushes 2A out of the micro-usb charger and the usb port on the back and neither will charge the N7. Bummer because it looks so nice on the dock to
Hey Everyone,
It's become kinda obvious now that i really need to change out all my old 1A chargers for 2A chargers now.
The one that comes with the phone is nice - if I didn't need the adapter to go with it. Now it's huge and chunk.
I'd like a pretty small charger, like the wonderful 1A TC U260 I got with my mytouch 4g.
I'm considering the following:
PowerGen Dual USB 2A 10W Car charger:
http://www.amzn.com/gp/product/B006...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006SU0SX0
PowerGen Dual Port Travel Wall Charger
http://www.amazon.com/PowerGen-Travel-Charger-Samsung-included/dp/B0073FE1F0/ref=cm_cr_dp_asin_lnk
Griffin GC23139 PowerJolt Dual car charger
http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-GC231...e=UTF8&qid=1349479987&sr=1-1&keywords=GC23139
(I really liked their dual mini which I used for a long time)
Any recommendations?
That first wall charger looks like something I'd buy. The charger and adapter I got from handtec is just so huge and ugly
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
How about the old HP touchpad chargers. IIRC those are 2a chargers. And they are cheap
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda app-developers app
I bought this one. Have not recieved it yet but looks good on paper.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=170905466556
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda app-developers app
This is kinda related to this thread
Can I use another USB cable with the original note 2 charger and still get 2A from it? I feel like the USB cables for my sgs2 fit better in my note 2 than the one that comes with it.
none of those car chargers will work if you plan on using the phone
ChodTheWacko said:
Hey Everyone,
It's become kinda obvious now that i really need to change out all my old 1A chargers for 2A chargers now.
The one that comes with the phone is nice - if I didn't need the adapter to go with it. Now it's huge and chunk.
I'd like a pretty small charger, like the wonderful 1A TC U260 I got with my mytouch 4g.
I'm considering the following:
PowerGen Dual USB 2A 10W Car charger:
PowerGen Dual Port Travel Wall Charger
Griffin GC23139 PowerJolt Dual car charger
(I really liked their dual mini which I used for a long time)
Any recommendations?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have done a lot of research on this. If it is compatible with ANY apple products then it will not charge with your cable due to the USB standard not being the same. You will have to either mod the product or the cable to get the full 2a charge. Plus I believe the Powergen and the griffin are only 2a total output so if you are charging 2 devices it will only be 1a and 1a ports. You need to look for a 4a total output. I have yet to find any that work. If anyone can find one please let me know. Charging with a 1a charge and using a GPS you will lose power as it does not charge fast enough. You need a full 2a. p.s. had to remove the outside links because I havent posted 10x yet.
yankees177 said:
If it is compatible with ANY apple products then it will not charge with your cable due to the USB standard not being the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not quite true.
I believe Apple only has high speed charging if you don't use an 'apple' USB port, similar to how you don't get high speed charging if you use a USB data cable versus a charging cable.
To be 100% I don't understand how it works exactly.
I can tell you, however, the following:
1) My Griffin charger happily charged my galaxy note even going full blast (GPS/bluetooth/screen on), and I bought some iphone chargers to help my friends out, and they charged their phones (slowly) with my charger too.
2) The powergen 10W charger I put above also happily (and quickly) charges my Note II going full blast.
It actually has a different 'Apple' vs 'non apple' USB port. Non-apple stuff may not charge in the apple slot, but that's not a big deal to me. I have only one phone. My iphone friends are usually the ones running out of power anyway, so it's kind of nice one side is applely.
- Frank
to the OP, try this:
http://www.amzn.com/Mediabridge-Hig...&qid=1351550361&sr=1-12&keywords=powergen+3.1
then get a charging cable:
http://www.amzn.com/Naztech-Micro-U...1351550441&sr=1-2&keywords=usb+charging+cable
or if you have an extra cable lying around, mod it. See this post to get a better idea:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=22546114&postcount=1
Thread linked for reference:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1686971
I have many 2a carchargers that worked great with a gs3 even an iPad that won't provide enough juice to the note to actually charge it while doing intensive tasks like mhl out in the car.
if anyone finds a car charger that actually works post it out we need a fast charge custom kernel.
I have a thread in the general note Sprint forum thatwe are discussing this as well and it seems no charger will work but an adapter I'm waiting on May
what about this?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00845NI8E/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00
dual 2A port car charger and comes with a Free MicroUSB cable that can handle faster charging. I ordered on so we'll see
peekeesh said:
to the OP, try this:
http://www.amzn.com/Mediabridge-Hig...&qid=1351550361&sr=1-12&keywords=powergen+3.1
This appears, from the reviews, to be an "apple"ish charger and doesn't work well with android devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would this work?
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=150928933202
yankees177 said:
I have done a lot of research on this. If it is compatible with ANY apple products then it will not charge with your cable due to the USB standard not being the same. You will have to either mod the product or the cable to get the full 2a charge. Plus I believe the Powergen and the griffin are only 2a total output so if you are charging 2 devices it will only be 1a and 1a ports. You need to look for a 4a total output. I have yet to find any that work. If anyone can find one please let me know. Charging with a 1a charge and using a GPS you will lose power as it does not charge fast enough. You need a full 2a. p.s. had to remove the outside links because I havent posted 10x yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im looking for 2A on each port too wall charger and only finds these.
Car charger:
http://www.amazon.com/Qmadix-QM-DMCH4-2-AP-WH-Twin-Tablet-Charging/dp/B008AGMO7S/ref=pd_cp_e_1
Wall charger, but thinks it divides 4A on each port?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/650723185/UL_Approval_4A_USB_Charger_For.html
Wall charger:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/efbe/#tabs
Why the heck are all for ipads, iphone and no EU plug.
I got an amazon branded 2A single usb charger about 6 months ago for another phone. It charges my Note2 quick. Sorry no links...
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
What about this please? Need input.
i.Sound Portable Charger
Has 16,000 mah
Input: 12V 1A
Output: ''5V 2.1A on each connector 2.5 A together''
I charge a number of things on here...
A friend has me a bit confused saying this could damage the charging mechanisms of the phone cause it has too much voltage?
Any input please?
Thanks
One Car Charger that works
Hello,
Whether a charger works or not depends on what DCP (Direct Charge Port) modes it supports.
I suspect the GN2 uses Shorted DCP, where the USB data lines (D+ and D-) are shorted. Apple chargers sense 2.4Vdc on these lines to allow the charger to ramp to full current. Asus and some Sammy TABs use 1.2Vdc to enable full current. This is to distinguish real USB ports from chargers, and to "encourage" you to use the manufacturer's provided charger.
It would be nice if someone can confirm what DCP mode the GN2 actually uses. Not that the charger manufacturer's publish what modes they support.... However, the charger IC manufacturer's (TI, Maxim) are beginning to get good at DCP autodetection which is going to make it much easier for us consumers.
As far as finding chargers that work,
I bought a 2.1A dual car charger at Walmart, model "i-xt" that works well with the GN2 and is listed as "on AC" when connected. Implying full current.
Cheers,
-Plaz
---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------
rockky said:
i.Sound Portable Charger
Has 16,000 mah
Input: 12V 1A
Output: ''5V 2.1A on each connector 2.5 A together''
I charge a number of things on here...
A friend has me a bit confused saying this could damage the charging mechanisms of the phone cause it has too much voltage?
Any input please?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have to worry about your phone being damaged. Phones have built-in protection for over-voltage and over current. 5Vdc is proper voltage for USB devices anyway (Output 5V, as listed in the specs). The catch is if the phone allows full current charging. That depends on the DCP mode of the charger. I'm not positive what mode the GN2 truly supports. If you already have the charger, you can determine if full current is being used by checking under settings -> battery while connected to the charger. If you see the "On AC" verbiage, the phone is in full current mode. If not, the charger is limiting to 500ma and acts like a standard USB port. You phone will still charge, but it will take longer.
Clear as mud?
Cheers,
-Plaz
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0044E7MNG/ref=cm_sw_r_an_am_ap_am_gb?ie=UTF8
Would this work?
Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks
QUOTE=Plazmid;33523324]Hello,
Whether a charger works or not depends on what DCP (Direct Charge Port) modes it supports.
I suspect the GN2 uses Shorted DCP, where the USB data lines (D+ and D-) are shorted. Apple chargers sense 2.4Vdc on these lines to allow the charger to ramp to full current. Asus and some Sammy TABs use 1.2Vdc to enable full current. This is to distinguish real USB ports from chargers, and to "encourage" you to use the manufacturer's provided charger.
It would be nice if someone can confirm what DCP mode the GN2 actually uses. Not that the charger manufacturer's publish what modes they support.... However, the charger IC manufacturer's (TI, Maxim) are beginning to get good at DCP autodetection which is going to make it much easier for us consumers.
As far as finding chargers that work,
I bought a 2.1A dual car charger at Walmart, model "i-xt" that works well with the GN2 and is listed as "on AC" when connected. Implying full current.
Cheers,
-Plaz
---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------
You don't have to worry about your phone being damaged. Phones have built-in protection for over-voltage and over current. 5Vdc is proper voltage for USB devices anyway (Output 5V, as listed in the specs). The catch is if the phone allows full current charging. That depends on the DCP mode of the charger. I'm not positive what mode the GN2 truly supports. If you already have the charger, you can determine if full current is being used by checking under settings -> battery while connected to the charger. If you see the "On AC" verbiage, the phone is in full current mode. If not, the charger is limiting to 500ma and acts like a standard USB port. You phone will still charge, but it will take longer.
Clear as mud?
Cheers,
-Plaz[/QUOTE]
I bought this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005AWO8V0/
It's 2A and works great. I like that the cord is attached, so no losing a USB cable or anything. Also has an integrated USB for other devices.
Plazmid said:
Hello,
Whether a charger works or not depends on what DCP (Direct Charge Port) modes it supports.
I suspect the GN2 uses Shorted DCP, where the USB data lines (D+ and D-) are shorted. Apple chargers sense 2.4Vdc on these lines to allow the charger to ramp to full current. Asus and some Sammy TABs use 1.2Vdc to enable full current. This is to distinguish real USB ports from chargers, and to "encourage" you to use the manufacturer's provided charger.
It would be nice if someone can confirm what DCP mode the GN2 actually uses. Not that the charger manufacturer's publish what modes they support.... However, the charger IC manufacturer's (TI, Maxim) are beginning to get good at DCP autodetection which is going to make it much easier for us consumers.
As far as finding chargers that work,
I bought a 2.1A dual car charger at Walmart, model "i-xt" that works well with the GN2 and is listed as "on AC" when connected. Implying full current.
Cheers,
-Plaz
---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------
You don't have to worry about your phone being damaged. Phones have built-in protection for over-voltage and over current. 5Vdc is proper voltage for USB devices anyway (Output 5V, as listed in the specs). The catch is if the phone allows full current charging. That depends on the DCP mode of the charger. I'm not positive what mode the GN2 truly supports. If you already have the charger, you can determine if full current is being used by checking under settings -> battery while connected to the charger. If you see the "On AC" verbiage, the phone is in full current mode. If not, the charger is limiting to 500ma and acts like a standard USB port. You phone will still charge, but it will take longer.
Clear as mud?
Cheers,
-Plaz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I understand the shorting D+/D- internally or via charging cable to enable "AC" charging. I understand that Apple and apparently Sammy/Asus use voltage on those lines to signal the requirement for full current. Here's my question: if my Note2 is connected to brand X charger and it says AC charging in the settings under battery, does that mean I am theoretically pulling the max current of that brand X charger. This of course assumes the battery is empty enough, temperatures of the battery and charger are low enough, etc...
What I'm getting at is does having a shorted charger or cable with an android on an iCharger give us full iPower? Gawd that sounds horrible doesn't it! :silly: Or, if you're getting "AC" from the iCharger is it really only 1.1A or 1.6A (just tossing those numbers out there) vice the 2.1A it would be charging an iPad at?
its ok to use my sgs2 or nexus one charger with the kindle fire hd 7?? or the amp/voltage is different?? thanks
pinkster said:
its ok to use my sgs2 or nexus one charger with the kindle fire hd 7?? or the amp/voltage is different?? thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it should be fine... I usually use charger for my http Wildfire... on charger you can find label with voltage/ampers... same label you could find on back side if your kindle... check it and compare if it will not get you into any trouble
I'm using my kindle USB with my iPhone plug. It works.
pinkster said:
its ok to use my sgs2 or nexus one charger with the kindle fire hd 7?? or the amp/voltage is different?? thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The kindles are rated to handle a very high voltage, 9v. This is how they charge so quickly with their power charger(which we all know you have to shell out an extra 20$ for, never bought a device that you had buy a charger separately- pretty screwed up.). Most devices only use around a 5v charger, so using a different charger won't effect the device it'll just charge slower. Now I would not suggest using a kindle power charger on other devices as the higher voltage will cause problems.
What about an Asus eee pad TF101 charger? It says 5-15V 2-1.5A
onemeila said:
The kindles are rated to handle a very high voltage, 9v. This is how they charge so quickly with their power charger(which we all know you have to shell out an extra 20$ for, never bought a device that you had buy a charger separately- pretty screwed up.). Most devices only use around a 5v charger, so using a different charger won't effect the device it'll just charge slower. Now I would not suggest using a kindle power charger on other devices as the higher voltage will cause problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
are you sure about that? i dont think that there are charger with any other voltage then 5V. it would be very dangerous to sell a charger that has a micro usb (or a standard usb jack) connector with anything other than 5v, because it will fry every device you plug in. (a device that can handle more than 5V will not use a USB connector!)
i think you are refering to the wattage, which is voltage*amp. a 9w charger can support up to 1.8A of power. a pc usb socket can only support 500mW according to specification. but it wont damage anything if the socket puts out more than that, as long as the voltage stays at 5V.
you can basically use every usb port and any microusb cable there is to charge your kindle (or every other usb powered device). the worst thing that can happen is that the amps are not enough and the charging takes forever and may not charge at all if the device is used.
heldgop said:
are you sure about that? i dont think that there are charger with any other voltage then 5V. it would be very dangerous to sell a charger that has a micro usb (or a standard usb jack) connector with anything other than 5v, because it will fry every device you plug in. (a device that can handle more than 5V will not use a USB connector!)
i think you are refering to the wattage, which is voltage*amp. a 9w charger can support up to 1.8A of power. a pc usb socket can only support 500mW according to specification. but it wont damage anything if the socket puts out more than that, as long as the voltage stays at 5V.
you can basically use every usb port and any microusb cable there is to charge your kindle (or every other usb powered device). the worst thing that can happen is that the amps are not enough and the charging takes forever and may not charge at all if the device is used.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for catching that, you're right, I was referring to wattage. (Don't tell my wife the electrical engineer, she'd smack me upside the head for that one)