Related
This getting a bit ridiculous, thie thread titled "How to pick a new ROM and Radio?" may have been redundant but it got some very good replies, stuff that I have over looked that i could use on my Kaiser like the Google gps and the Skyfire browser software , two pieces of info that I have missed seeing on this forum, to whick I have tried all because someone asked a basic question .
There is a lot very very good info that is here, but sometimes they are often buried long before a lot of users get to see them..
So why not allow some of them to continue and NOT edited out the info that is given in them
So what that a question has been asked many times over, this is the general forum for the device.... and is look at by a lot of new users.
Or how about just creating a newbie threads where it is allowed to ask often repeat question..... I think you were abit to quick in posting you fancy threaded closed picture...
and if you look at a some of the Rom threads here, some are very long 200 to 400 replies with very redundant answers like Oh what grweat looking rom, or I can not wait to try it...with alot of pat on the back answers....compared to the thread I spoke about which had some great info it till someone removed the info...
F2504x4 said:
This getting a bit ridiculous, thie thread titled "How to pick a new ROM and Radio?" may have been redundant but it got some very good replies, stuff that I have over looked that i could use on my Kaiser like the Google gps and the Skyfire browser software , two pieces of info that I have missed seeing on this forum, to whick I have tried all because someone asked a basic question .
There is a lot very very good info that is here, but sometimes they are often buried long before a lot of users get to see them..
So why not allow some of them to continue and NOT edited out the info that is given in them
So what that a question has been asked many times over, this is the general forum for the device.... and is look at by a lot of new users.
Or how about just creating a newbie threads where it is allowed to ask often repeat question..... I think you were abit to quick in posting you fancy threaded closed picture...
and if you look at a some of the Rom threads here, some are very long 200 to 400 replies with very redundant answers like Oh what grweat looking rom, or I can not wait to try it...with alot of pat on the back answers....compared to the thread I spoke about which had some great info it till someone removed the info...
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Simple answer:
Because this is a developers forum, the rules are clear (though i doubt any of the offenders actually read them) that you should READ (which few do), SEARCH (which even fewer do) and post in an EXISTING thread (if only). Why should we change the rules of the forum just because nobody bothers to read them?
FWIW, mocking a mod will not get you anywhere...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=377
First off I was not mocking you just the picture used , it is kinda over board
IMO
Second off most sites that have stickies or read firsts or what ever they are called are ignored, very common problem and one that will never go away...sorry but that is true, i deal with the same issue on a couple of sites i admin...
As to the threads, that is what a general forum is for....Place to ask questions, that is also how a site grows as new members post and ask questions...even if its the same one over and over again.. Newbies do learn as they get more info.
I try to be as helpful to newbies as possible as I learn more and more,and share what i have learned , that is my way of giving back to a site,
and the same thing happens as the newcomer understands how and where to find the info that they are looking for, I just replied to a couple more. without putting them down btw, I just steered them to where they can find the info.... but at the same time , like I said before I learned something just by a often asked question getting some good replies , what is wrong with that ?
Why not let some of these threads run there course for a few days then lock them while leaving the info in them ? its a win win scenario, it will help cut down on these threads at the same time continuing to help the newcomers learn about there devices and this site..
The plus side to this is more money a site will make by the amount of traffic it gets from threads that are created....and also the possibility of them clicking the ads.. just a thought...
F2504x4 said:
First off I was not mocking you just the picture used , it is kinda over board
IMO
Second off most sites that have stickies or read firsts or what ever they are called are ignored, very common problem and one that will never go away...sorry but that is true, i deal with the same issue on a couple of sites i admin...
As to the threads, that is what a general forum is for....Place to ask questions, that is also how a site grows as new members post and ask questions...even if its the same one over and over again.. Newbies do learn as they get more info.
I try to be as helpful to newbies as possible as I learn more and more,and share what i have learned , that is my way of giving back to a site,
and the same thing happens as the newcomer understands how and where to find the info that they are looking for, I just replied to a couple more. without putting them down btw, I just steered them to where they can find the info.... but at the same time , like I said before I learned something just by a often asked question getting some good replies , what is wrong with that ?
Why not let some of these threads run there course for a few days then lock them while leaving the info in them ? its a win win scenario, it will help cut down on these threads at the same time continuing to help the newcomers learn about there devices and this site..
The plus side to this is more money a site will make by the amount of traffic it gets from threads that are created....and also the possibility of them clicking the ads.. just a thought...
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I will concede to you that the idea of a new member thread where they can ask anything and everything as many times as they want without fear of being flamed is somewhat appealing. I think maybe if it could be stickied at the top so that it's always easy to find would be helpful too. Maybe, just maybe that could possibly cut down on the dozens of redundant threads started every single day.
Well now, i tend to respond to all redundant threads so that it will be easier when some1 searches for it. I.E. finding 10 redundant threads that have the same answer is a lot better then having 10 redundant threads where most of them are just flaming the person for not searching.
But closing a "clutter" thread is probably for the best. Its still accessible by search, and prevents the clutter thread to expand to something stupid. (I.E. 2 pages worth of people posting pics with babies getting fed)
scotchua said:
I will concede to you that the idea of a new member thread where they can ask anything and everything as many times as they want without fear of being flamed is somewhat appealing. I think maybe if it could be stickied at the top so that it's always easy to find would be helpful too. Maybe, just maybe that could possibly cut down on the dozens of redundant threads started every single day.
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Click to collapse
Thanks,
you should stop by pirate4x4 , they deal with new jeep owners with with same old same questions by having a flame free zone ie: "Jeep - Non Hardcore"
Flame free Jeep talk about the basics. it helps with keeping them out of the high tech areas..where they will get blasted
Now i know that we cannot have a forum for each device but a thread where there questions can be asked would be great if you and the other mods are willing to test it out.... or maybe a sub forum with-in the Kaiser general forum so that you guys can move these kinds of questions to ?(shrugs shoulders).
i will as well as others will try to help out the best we can..
ekw, good point...
I just think it is better try and help out the newguys in a nice way at first, those with less then 30 or so posts and new join dates....after which they should pick up on how the site works....granted I am still a newb just because of the amount of info on this site and it is a bit hard to try a find it right a way
What's "Cluter" ?
californiarailroader said:
What's "Cluter" ?
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I'm not sure. But If I see It I might have to Close it down.
To the OP:
I appreciate your thoughts and opinions, but the rules here were created for a reason, and they are enforced for a reason.
Believe me there was solid, almost scientific reasons behind the rules created.
The Kasier Forum has come after a long line of Forums, different techniques have been used to control the forums and our way is the way we will continue.
Thanks for your concern but, I don't see it changing anytime soon.
JimmyMcGee said:
I'm not sure. But If I see It I might have to Close it down.
To the OP:
I appreciate your thoughts and opinions, but the rules here were created for a reason, and they are enforced for a reason.
Believe me there was solid, almost scientific reasons behind the rules created.
The Kasier Forum has come after a long line of Forums, different techniques have been used to control the forums and our way is the way we will continue.
Thanks for your concern but, I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well from my stand point and others that i have read that have similar thoughts , its not working...new threads are still being created and the same old questions are being asked.... so the battle rages on......job security for the staff
so flaming is okay...but redundant questions are not hmmm
"scientific reasons" , that sounds just like the engineers that that i have worked with that have the same results,to which we will kick the plans/designs back to them and then go head make the real world changes that do work....
But engineers and scientist's pretty much think alike(very difficult to get them to think outside the box) unless you find one that has mechanic's hands, then you keep him close at hand....
(sorry I am not trying to be sarcastic in this response ) <---just stating a view point..
You only see it with mods cleaning it up. You think its out of hand now. It would be more out of hand is if we weren't here.
We work hard behind the curtain trying to make this place enjoyable and readable to everyone. Even with the threats on our person and families, even with the bad attitudes, even with people thinking their way is better. But the mods push on.
Why? Because we want this place to be informative and enjoyable to everyone.
Side Note: I say that, not because I'm searching for thanks and gratitude towards me and the other mods. Just wanting to shed a little light as to why us mods do what we do. Because, like you members, we love tweaking our phones.
And to answer your question. No Flaming is NOT tolerated, but us mods can't be everywhere. You can always Report a trouble thread to us. Just click the "
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
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"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
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" to report a thread.
i'm a relatively new member of these forums and i would tend to agree with the mods...
the rules ARE crystal clear...the search DOES work...and when the mods say there are scientific reasons behind the rules, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the reasons
the flame free zone sounds like a nice idea but i fear it will just spoil the members (old and new alike) in a way that everyone can potentially end up posting and MAYBE getting answers in the flame free zone whereas most of their queries will DEFINITELY be answered MOST of the time from the wiki and by searching the existing threads
with personalized threads about already covered issues that seem to crave member-specific attention, the forum becomes less of a forum and more of a consultancy service...
being a new member myself, i don't think i have had to start any of my own threads so far...i was really really tempted to do so, especially with regards to which radio is good for me here in pakistan...but just by searching and reading a couple of threads, i quickly got a very good idea of the variables, constraints, and considerations involved in selecting a radio rom and why everyone says "try out every radio until you find a keeper"...
just my 2 cents...
ASCIIker said:
i'm a relatively new member of these forums and i would tend to agree with the mods...
the rules ARE crystal clear...the search DOES work...and when the mods say there are scientific reasons behind the rules, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the reasons
the flame free zone sounds like a nice idea but i fear it will just spoil the members (old and new alike) in a way that everyone can potentially end up posting and MAYBE getting answers in the flame free zone whereas most of their queries will DEFINITELY be answered MOST of the time from the wiki and by searching the existing threads
with personalized threads about already covered issues that seem to crave member-specific attention, the forum becomes less of a forum and more of a consultancy service...
being a new member myself, i don't think i have had to start any of my own threads so far...i was really really tempted to do so, especially with regards to which radio is good for me here in pakistan...but just by searching and reading a couple of threads, i quickly got a very good idea of the variables, constraints, and considerations involved in selecting a radio rom and why everyone says "try out every radio until you find a keeper"...
just my 2 cents...
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Before I was a mod, I had 1,400 posts and 0 created threads. So it can be done.
scotchua said:
Simple answer:
Because this is a developers forum, the rules are clear (though i doubt any of the offenders actually read them) that you should READ (which few do), SEARCH (which even fewer do) and post in an EXISTING thread (if only). Why should we change the rules of the forum just because nobody bothers to read them?
FWIW, mocking a mod will not get you anywhere...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=377
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With all due respect to the mods, whom I really do admire for their knowledge, dedication to the site and especially their patience. Props to NATF, P1 and Jimmie especially, I have a problem with the anonymous closing of threads.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=448207
While I applaud your closing of useless threads and this one was particularly offensive ( I am sure Leo and Dutty and sakajati spend hrs, days and months writing and developing new roms just so that they can be subjectively reviewed by noobs and the uninformed.) , I do think that it is equally troubling to have mods closing threads without an explanation or taking responsibilty. I think this undermines the faith we all have in this site ( to be unbiased and agenda free ) and the faith we have in the mods to administer this site in a way that people feel free to express opinions and exchange thoughts and ideas,unencumbered by personal biases and agendas
The previous thread and many others were closed for obvious reasons, with no explanation really needed, but it may not always be that way. So I think it is important that we know who, and get an explanation no matter how cursory , when a thread is closed.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for listening
JimmyMcGee said:
Believe me there was solid, almost scientific reasons behind the rules created.
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In all honesty, and I'm NOT trying to be "smart" here, could you share a little? If there's a really compelling reason that I'm just missing, I'd be more than happy to keep my trap shut!
I completely understand the idea of trying to keep clutter down and trying not to waste time and bandwidth on flame wars. Nothing wrong with that.
I just think that the lack of any sort of sanctioned ROM comparison information makes it very difficult for beginners to understand the forums. And, honestly, I think it results in more "How I pick ROMs?!" threads than you'd see otherwise. And more work for the mods. And more hurt feelings from newbs, who still have the same question but don't really understand the answer.
It's much easier to tell an offender "Hey, use THIS thread" than it is to tell them, "You can't ask that question," because the latter statement is only going to lead to them asking, "Wait...why?"
I'm all for deleting clutter, but I can't help but feel that some of those "clutter" threads are symptoms of a lack of information about what different ROMs are for.
And, hey, as I mentioned in another thread, I think having a flame-filled, bilious "ROM discussion" thread might be worthwhile if only so mods can point to it as a shining example of why those threads are verboten.
typo said:
In all honesty, and I'm NOT trying to be "smart" here, could you share a little? If there's a really compelling reason that I'm just missing, I'd be more than happy to keep my trap shut!
I completely understand the idea of trying to keep clutter down and trying not to waste time and bandwidth on flame wars. Nothing wrong with that.
I just think that the lack of any sort of sanctioned ROM comparison information makes it very difficult for beginners to understand the forums. And, honestly, I think it results in more "How I pick ROMs?!" threads than you'd see otherwise. And more work for the mods. And more hurt feelings from newbs, who still have the same question but don't really understand the answer.
It's much easier to tell an offender "Hey, use THIS thread" than it is to tell them, "You can't ask that question," because the latter statement is only going to lead to them asking, "Wait...why?"
I'm all for deleting clutter, but I can't help but feel that some of those "clutter" threads are symptoms of a lack of information about what different ROMs are for.
And, hey, as I mentioned in another thread, I think having a flame-filled, bilious "ROM discussion" thread might be worthwhile if only so mods can point to it as a shining example of why those threads are verboten.
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I totally understand what you are saying. And Regardless of what ever the Community does, you will have people who refuse to read "READ ME FIRST" or "READ HERE BEFORE POSTING" or "THIS IS THE THREAD WITH THE INFORMATION WE WANT" These are the people who post the "clutter" threads. And when I close a thread I call attention to my signature, if applicable, and the Kaiser Section Guidelines.
Hopefully this leads to people seeing why I closed their thread and alleviates any heard feelings.
I understand the desire to have a detailed explanation for why we close each thread, but to be completely honest, that is not feasible. Most of the threads which are closed are simply a case of people not searching and reading, and as such i suggest they search and read. Think about the amount of time you spend on here each day, then imagine if you had to spend 90% of it reading reported posts, discussing the correct course of action for each situation, closing threads, explaining your decisions to the people who caused the problem in the first place because they didn't read the guidelines in the first place.
Every moderator here is simply trying to do the best they can to keep this place cleaned up with the dozens of redundant threads posted in each forum every day, and the spam, the users fighting, etc. Plus we are trying to actually enjoy using the site some ourselves, and fix our own problems on our devices. This requires us to actually do some research, reading, and troubleshooting ourselves.
In conclusion, i recommend everyone read the link "What is XDA-Developers all about" before they post anything else. This explains why there is such a fundamental divide between so many of the new users and those who have been around her for awhile. This is a developers site, and not a tech support site. You will find many users, including myself, more than willing to help you, but that is not what the forum is for. As i said in my PM reply to Typo, I will be discussing the idea of a single thread to discuss why different people like certain roms. The major issue with that right now is that the members of this forum typically cannot discuss issues like that without it devolving into fighting. We would love to be able to allow postitive and useful discusssion about roms, and remember, MOST of the time, the problem has NOTHING to do with the moderators, and everything to do with people not reading the rules, or not respecting others.
denco7 said:
With all due respect to the mods, whom I really do admire for their knowledge, dedication to the site and especially their patience. Props to NATF, P1 and Jimmie especially, I have a problem with the anonymous closing of threads.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=448207
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Just wanted to point out that my post you quoted was written 2 months before i became a moderator, and that i have always held that opinion, even back in January when i was a 1 post noob who moderators were telling to not post stuff in the wrong place.
I am sorry you disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread, but if you do, that should be handled by PM first before dragging it out into an open discussion. Also, i'm not sure why you find it "offensive" that he would close a thread he found unnecessary. We try to be as fair as possible, and are usually pretty objective. If you feel we made an error in judgement, please, as i said contact us via PM. We really are here to help.
scotchua said:
Just wanted to point out that my post you quoted was written 2 months before i became a moderator, and that i have always held that opinion, even back in January when i was a 1 post noob who moderators were telling to not post stuff in the wrong place.
I am sorry you disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread, but if you do, that should be handled by PM first before dragging it out into an open discussion. Also, i'm not sure why you find it "offensive" that he would close a thread he found unnecessary. We try to be as fair as possible, and are usually pretty objective. If you feel we made an error in judgement, please, as i said contact us via PM. We really are here to help.
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I am sorry that you did not read my post more closely. I did not disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread , I supported it . If you re-read my post , it was the thread that I found offensive and totally agreed it should have been closed, so there was no need to handle it in private. The problem I had was with the anonymous closing of the thread. I feel that anonymous administering of any site, undermines the integrity of the site. Jimmy usually closes the posts with a cursory " redundant " or "against forum posting rules " or " unproductive discussion ".
And for the other reasons I mentioned in my post , I thought that , it was important to be very visible in your closing of threads. Believe me the last thing I want to see is "reviewing" of peoples hard work that they so generously choose to share with the rest of us
I did not know that Jimmy closed the thread, it was just done. Much like the " anonymous administration " , I thought it was important to discuss my thoughts in the open so as not to lead anyone to believe that it was personal.
I have been very pleased with the direction that the forum has taken since you ,Dave, Jimmy, P1, and NATF were appointed mods ,very pleased.
Oh , and I'm sorry if you thought my post was based on your quote, I kind of just pulled your quote out of a hat as a means of restarting " the closing of clutter threads" thread.
denco7 said:
I am sorry that you did not read my post more closely. I did not disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread , I supported it . If you re-read my post , it was the thread that I found offensive and totally agreed it should have been closed, so there was no need to handle it in private.
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you are right, i misunderstood you. my apologies. i understand what you are getting at now.
my 2 cents.
Unfortunately not everyone is a developer (like myself) but i am here and have been (hopefully) supplying helpful advice to everyone i respond to, i have a few times responded with the simple answer of "SEARCH!!!" but also i like to but not always like to leave them 2 or 3 links to things i simply searched relating to their problem, just to prove search does work.
Luckily i havent had any urgent, burning questions to where i needed to start a new thread (i dont think) and now am trying to teach myself how to develop software for my mobile (and yours).
So i agree with both sides redundant posts suck, but an anti flame noobs post here thread would be nice. If a question/amswer is good enough move it to the wiki or the main forum. if it's not it stays in the newb forum, also redundant threads could be thrown over there without worries.
-Mike
LOL,
this 'hidden disagreement' is really entertaining!
There is one thing members tend to forget:
This site belongs to the 'makers' of XDA DEVELOPERS. Those guys came up with house rules and general guidlines to keep it the place it was from the beginning: a nice site where you can mod your device, get a different ROM or develop your own. In addition the XDA Makers even added sections where you can get FREE HELP / SUPPORT and other useful information.
All of us 'non-mod's', 'non-Chefs' and 'non-admins' - no matter if JUNIOR or SENIOR member - we are not more but guests! We agreed to the forum rules when we first signed up. This is not our own forum, we are simply members. If the existing structure can't satisfy our needs, well, there are other forums we can join next to this one or we even can set up our own little discussion world somewhere!
Please keep in mind what this place was made for! Also keep in mind that we are nothing but guests on here. As guests we shouldn't complain about the dinner we get!
Even though I can understand that some people have a need to get it 'their way'; I do appreciate the strong and clean line XDA Developers keeps by closing or removing threads! (Yes, it happened to me too that threads were closed or removed! )
Please, guys! Keep smiling! This kind of threads start annoying me more and more - they have not much to do with the KAISER but are still posted in the KAISER section! Again another thread which won't provide helpful information in case someone is searching in the KAISER BOARDS ... !
Xperia ROM development forum is a mess!!
Guys,
every day i see a new thread created by some users.
It is mostly like, how can i do this, how can i do that.
It is really simple, if you want to ask something about an option or a function that isn;t working then please post in the corresponding thread so we can have a clean forum.
Here is a link to the rules:http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=256
please read it guys, it is very annoying to see a new thread everytime.
mods, please put some time in this xperia forum with cleaning out the ''litter''
@ all, thank you very much for your cooperation.
Now @ 203 views and nobody has left a comment or suggestion or something like that?
I think this is what the community has become, like only get what you need and then use it and then complaining, no suggestions or anything, no thanks for the chefs ?
i understand what ur saying but a im pretty sure a mod has just moved some of the useless threads because a lot of them have been moved
Shazad.K said:
Now @ 203 views and nobody has left a comment or suggestion or something like that?
I think this is what the community has become, like only get what you need and then use it and then complaining, no suggestions or anything, no thanks for the chefs ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stop complaining... j/k
No, I think you made your point. You don't need any more spamming of THIS thread.
yeah thats right the forum is mess
but why?
the people are lazy to read
i hope we can change this in the future....
greetZ
and to all other Merry X MAS
Shazad.K said:
Now @ 203 views and nobody has left a comment or suggestion or something like that?
I think this is what the community has become, like only get what you need and then use it and then complaining, no suggestions or anything, no thanks for the chefs ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No.
I think people read your post and ignored it because it contained nothing useful in itself. It's a public forum, if you want neat and tidy you're probably in the wrong place.
I'm not looking to pick argument it just seems to me your original post was pointless. In most cases the title of a thread gives you enough info to decided whether it's worthy of reading.
Sure there are plenty of people who come here just to get what they want and give nothing back, again it's the nature of the beast. But I think there's still plenty of people who are willing to give as well as take and on a whole the forum still functions well.
My biggest gripe would be people asking questions answered on the previous page (i.e. lack of search) not untidiness.
Also I think the X1 forum has lost a lot of active members to the LEO forum recently. Again this is inevitable given the age of the device and the progression of handsets.
The LEO thread is much more active currently IMO. POP over there, don't forget most of what they're discussing applies to our device too.
pheL said:
yeah thats right the forum is mess
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Confirm, a bit..
pheL said:
but why?
the people are lazy to read
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this is true, but some can also give reasons (which are also true) that some threads are really huge, specially good rom threads, on average they are 1000 posts longs, some go as long as 11,000 posts (valkyrie), when someone new get a rom and gets a small bug, it is really impossible to read all past thread, and unfortunately the thread search is not always helpful...
the best thing for a rom forum is to be a wiki, where each rom gets a page with generic information, and links to threads of sub pages that have useful information, like how to fix a known bug, or where to get an app that does that thing..... and leave the bla bla discussions or personal opinions on the forum.
some rom developers follow such a method, but partially, in the first few posts reserved for the rom you sometimes find links to common issues and solutions, but after a while everything gets messy again....
a ROM is a "product" that needs its own area or even a forum by itself. not a single forum for many products, this brings the mess....
but this need much organization, the price to be less messy
Newbies don't know their way around
Shazad.K said:
Guys,
every day i see a new thread created by some users.
It is mostly like, how can i do this, how can i do that.
It is really simple, if you want to ask something about an option or a function that isn;t working then please post in the corresponding thread so we can have a clean forum.
Here is a link to the rules:http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=256
please read it guys, it is very annoying to see a new thread everytime.
mods, please put some time in this xperia forum with cleaning out the ''litter''
@ all, thank you very much for your cooperation.
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Click to collapse
You are right and its mostly down to newbies. I'm someone who makes a point of holding off on posting on a few forum until I see the layout, get the rules, etc. so I don't annoy seasoned members and get a bad rep for being stupid.
A lot of new members to the site are a bit out of their depth (I know I was when I first joined) and its not really only being used as a developers forum/site any more. If you're a newbie you've got two choices: (1) ask, (2) spend countless hours trying to work it out for yourself.
I guess the lazy ones are a bit thread happy!
EmuX
P.S. You can show people the rules but you can't make them read.
P.P.S. Isn't this another one of those clogging up threads that aren't anything to do with ROM dev though?! (joke)
I hovered around in the X1 forum for a little more than a year, and most recently, after getting a new (additional) toy, I moved over to another forum, the one which is mentioned here already.
Frankly spoken, I have the perception that the X1 forum here is quite in order, while the HD2 forum is a real mess. For many "similar" problems and questions, many newcomers open a new thread instead of using the search function. In case of the X1 forum, there is much more "discipline".
Plus, the mods of the forums are quite effective here, I would say.
I am still very thankful that xda devs exists, thanks to all who contribute, especially the cooks... and also to those who help understanding the forum (and its rules) to newcomers. All of us started "small" and as "newb", no? And from time to time, I try to help, too - even if I am just an "average" user.
Mods please close thread
I think the point is made.
mods, please close this thread
im partly responsible for your this thread and once agian, i am sorry....i promise u it wont happen again..
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. ~Winston Churchill
Sorry to all the mods and admins again...
In an effort to decrease what seems to be a growing number of complaints over useless, counter-productive posts (which in my humble opinion, are in and of themselves, also useless, counter-productive posts) I've started this thread.
Got a problem with a stupid, useless, thread-clogging post?
Want to flame someone endlessly for not reading the thread before posting? Or not reading the Original Post? Or asking a question that was clearly answered three posts before?
Cut and paste it, list it here and comment on it. Then if possible, PM the perceived wrongdoer and let them know. Or let them know as part of your next "useful" post by adding a short comment and a link to this thread. Take the fight or argument off-thread! That way, the complaints that you would be tempted to post in the affected thread, won't cause the very thing you're complaining about!
If anyone likes this idea, add the link to this thread in your signature...please don't PM me telling me you don't like this thread...
First Complaint
This is a waste of space.
All posts I make are a waste of space AND time.
The ironic thing is, although a majority of the posts on XDA qualify for this, watch this thread be the one that's the least commented in. Oh irony.
Oh NO!!!! It's Mr Bill!!!
G1BRICKED said:
All posts I make are a waste of space AND time.
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@ tnpapadakos
*sights*... how do I put this?....
There is no flaming allowed ANYWHERE in this site. Not even in Off Topic regarding to anything else. By opening this thread, you are in essence encouraging people to be rude to others, allowing them to "vent" against others. Users are not allowed to be disrespectful or flame at any time in this site. If a user does, then he/she is breaking forum rules and moderators will act accordingly. The little triangle with the exclamation sign on each post is so that anyone can let us know if any of this is going on...
I am going to close this thread simply because the only thing that you wanted this thread to do is causing users to do exactly that. They are flaming you and posting comments that serve no other purpose other than... well, flaming the OP.
If you would like to revisit this case, pm me and I will be more than happy to talk it over with the other mods. But for now...
thread closed.
The TownHall Meeting has been officially started. Here are the rules of engagement:
Ok, enough joking for now. Here are the true rules of engagement:
1. Posts that are flaming or flame bait are to be deleted, no questions asked.
2. Language to be edited on sight....
3. No banning, No infractions.
4. Moderators will act only as a mediator, so we will not be taking sides with anyone.
Welcome everyone
@everyone,
Please respect the rules above and I can guarantee you that by the end of the day, we will have a much happier and friendlier atmosphere in this place.
Summary of action items
This was a good meeting in General and it has covered all of the things that I had in my agenda. A few action items on our (mods) end:
1. New threads for ROM updates: Rom threads become quasi chaotic after page 100 or so. Since Chefs update most of their work often, I would suggest that chefs open a new thread for each version with a date and version number to distinguish it from the previous one (maybe even a name)
ie [ROM] 12/15/10 - Inchybrid v 1.2 - all is good now
2. Rom Review Thread: In order to minimize the clutter of the usual "what rom is best" questions, we will start a ROM thread where chefs can post a link to their roms on the first few posts and users will be able to leave reviews (not necessarily feedback), but reviews. So, when someone comes asking for the best rom, that person can be directed there.
3. Wiki update and guides (sticky): These need to be heavily updated, but will certainly be a useful tool to help people with questions.
4. Location / shape of the Report button: I will talk to the other admins and see what can be done about this one.
5. Preventing non-devs from making new threads in Dev: We are currently discussing a system for this. We will keep you posted if and when we reach a conclusion.
6. Off Topic Lounge: There will be a thread in General for you guys to blow off steam. Nothing fancy, but you can post there without having to open a new thread in OT general
Now, onto the action items results and requests from us (mods)
1. Further flaming for questions will not be tolerated. I gathered from this meeting that everyone agrees on a stance that people need not be flamed for asking anything. If there are questions in the wrong areas or simply don't feel like answering, refrain from posting and report it to us. We will move it to Q&A or General depending on the question. Building on this point, if anyone is caught flaming someone who posted in the correct section, that person will be given a vacation.
2. Rule 12 (aka Kanging): Rom chefs (no matter if they are themers or zip wizards), if they are using someone else's efforts as a base for their rom, they are to abide by Rule 12 by asking permission and posting the due credit in the opening post. Kanging will not be tolerated.
3. Donations: This was barely brushed but I feel that we reached an understanding rather quickly on this one. Chefs shall not ask for Donations to release early work.
4. Posting any kind of flaming will not be tolerated. If you feel that a post shouldn't be there, please let us know and we will take care of that.
I think this pretty much summed everything up. If I missed something, please let me know. I expect everyone to adhere to codes of conduct in this site. Thanks to all for attending.
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
lralexl said:
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
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Thanks for starting things off...
So, what you are saying is that a lot of the flaming occurs due to skinners being deemed as kangers. Am I getting this right?
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
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Click to collapse
Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
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In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev. It looks like the biggest problem is either a misunderstanding about this rule or lack of knowledge about its existence by both accusing party and "guilty/innocent" party. As a general rule of thumb, if you are making a rom that is based on someone else's work:
* Ask for permission
* Give credit where its due
Simple as that.
Interesting point...
From my experience on hero, people tend to post a theme pack for a ROM. For example, a few regular users port the same few themes into each new ROM I make, and release an add-on patch for it.
They don't go and release it as a separate ROM, but if they did, I have no doubt they would ask me about it first, and I would say sure, but with the caveat that we don't want it to happen too often... What would people think if we had one ROM that is tweaked theme-wise a few times and re-posted as separate ROMs?
There's no "right" answer, but provided people ask the original developers, and give credit per rule 12, then there is no issue with the rules there, so users would be allowed to.
Whether or not it is a "ROM" is up to individual perspectives then.
egzthunder1 said:
Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev.
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I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
lralexl said:
I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
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Click to collapse
Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
One (implied) rule of thumb is that if the "dev" in question cannot support their release, you are more than likely dealing with a themer or a "zip wizard" and as such, you are probably better off trying to find the source of the rom and apply the theme/fix as a separate add-on.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
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It may be a bit of added work, but the Rom review thread is not a bad idea. Just keep it clean from clutter and you have a very good tool to prevent new threads of "What is the best rom?" kind from erupting... I like that!
When it comes from flaming, some people will just put out flame bait for the hell of it. What I need, or at least I would like to see, is for everyone to stick to code of conduct and either ignore it, report it, or else, just not add to the fire.
First, we do recognize that we have a problem. We know this because 1) developers are leaving and forming their own sites because they don't like some of the things going on here. And 2) newer people are afraid to post here. Instead, they go to other forums and ask questions and state that they are afraid to post here. Both of these are big problems for the health of the site.
So, we look at the root causes. Most of them stem from 1) a lack of courtesy or 2) a lack of proper conduct. But I think the problems start with:
1. The Samsung Vibrant's stock software is not up to par due to some poor performing components, such as the GPS.
2. Samsung and T-Mobile have failed to communicate with their community.
3. Many people have come to sites like XDA for help.
What this means is that we have a lot of people in the Development forum who really aren't developers. But, they are here because they want help making their Vibrants perform better. That's not an excuse. I'm just saying that we probably have a lot of people in the Developer section who probably should be in QA or General section.
I think we would do well to:
1. Create a NooB forum, or emphasize the General forum as the place to be.
2. Post all new released ROMs in its own forum (not General, but "ROMS" or "Releases") That way people can go there for ROMS and for SUPPORT.
3. I would hope that this would enable the development forum to get back to being one were developers (or people who are interested in developing) could hang out.
Lastly, there are just some people who are like to cause trouble or are overly sensitive. I'm not sure what to do with them. But if they can't play nice, probably the first thing is to "parent" them and see if they can play nice. If that doesn't work, then it is time for a "timeout", or a temporary or permanent ban.
Lastly, while I appreciate the TownHall meeting, let's not lose site of the good things happening here. I would say that the majority of people are following the rules and making meaningful contributions. But if just 10% of the people do bad things, it colors the entire community.
The Vibrant subforums have seemed to be more Wild West than anything. I feel there should be a better mod presence. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly how difficult it is to do all the moderating, especially given how much of it is behind the scenes, but I feel that there is still some regulation lacking. We need to see more people get warned within threads that get out of hand, and frankly, some banning might get the message across that XDA is going to stop taking this crap from people. This board has gotten ridiculous w/ the flaming and incessant bs. Moderation can only go so much, since it's really up to the posting base to change their ways and be more respectful towards one another in order to truly make a long-term difference, but in the short-term we need some better, more aggresive moderation since changing peoples' posting habits will not be a quick thing to happen.
Proud to be a noob
I think there does seem to be a general consensus around us "noobs" about our failure to use the "search" function in a thread that has over 600 + pages of posts. God knows I would love to just flash a ROM and read basic information or FAQ's from the developer (the one individual who SHOULD know more about their own product than anyone) if I have questions, but when you have over 200 posts about how much others love/hate the ROM/developer or personal rants or recommendations/requests for the ROM they have had no part in developing, it does make it difficult to filter out the answer to the force close issue I am experiencing (for example). Then the flame wars begin! How DARE I ask that question since it was answered previously 42 pages back with a link to another developers thread, posted on page 418 of their 700 page manifesto...you get the hint. Finding basic answers to questions is challenging at best, and most newcomers end up getting ridiculed to the point of not wanting to have any further part, or end up flaming right back. Newsflash : just because you have flashed every possible combination of ROM/kernel/modem, does in no way make you an expert. Leave that to the people that make the ROM. Replies should be streamlined to relevant information allowed only, or force a PM if you want to discuss something irrelevant or bash a newcomer if it makes you feel better.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
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I was think about that the other day...that's a good idea and that way the develoment forum will be kept clean.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
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Are you able to comment on the personal issues or are you simply surmising?
Thanks
WB
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
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To expand on this point, I've noticed people flaming over pretty much any definition. Someone posts that they're disappointed by GPS performance or screen burn in, and they get an argument over what constitutes a "feature" of the phone and told that their concern is not important. People forget that what might not be important to them may be a dealbreaker for someone else.
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since that's where I spend most of my time I can say for certain that this is true. I think there's a lot of younger kids in the vibrant forum who like picking fights and just generally being less than friendly. It seems like the answer to most questions asked is go search for it yourself. The information is readily available most of the time if theyd just look, but there's no reason to be rude about it.
With that said, I think since the thanks button has been added its made for a better atmosphere--so far. Definitely a welcome addition that will hopefully keep things civil.
Annoy the hell outta me. I like to wander the forums, but lately its a ***** trying to find development threads since they are all moved around. Now we have Nexus 3G and 4G ROMs that are similar other than model numbers all being moved to the General forum. Cyanogenmod Kangs, Miui ports, Bugless Beast. This is confusing as hell.
So maybe these aren't meeting the developement criteria to stay within sub-forum. But maybe its time to reconsider rules of the forums. For someone new jumping into these threads, this General Forum looks like ass. I can't even count how many ICS ROMs there are, and then have to I have to put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and investigate which one is for my device.
I know I can bookmark threads, and save favorites. But I like seeing buzz in the development forums by seeing what stays bumped. Can't really do that in the general.
Just my 2 pennies on all this moderator power tripping BS going on here.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G
I agree. I've sent messages to other mods and the only response i get is that they will look into it. It is definitely an unnecessary move on the mods part, but what can we do. Look for this thread to be locked also before too long, because it probably will be, your not allowed to express your opinion in the general section now either. I wish we could get more developers over on Rootzwiki. I don't see this happening on all of the other forums either.
Sent from my super sleek NS4G
Agree...
I couldn't agree more. I made a thread in the General Section, the main General section, not for any particular device. The thread was "Show your ICS home screens". I said in the thread, "Here's my current setup on NS4G". So they moved the thread to Nexus s general. then another modderator moved it again. I gave up.
Devs come on to post thir work, they can't post in certain forums or post links until they have posted X amount of times. I get the idea, but it's stupid! I can open a new user acct, go to the iphone section post 10 posts totally unreleated to android, then come back to the Android section, & like magic, I'm qualified to post in the dev threads.
Another thing is the mods pissing off the devs. A development forum without developers posting to it won't stand long.
I can't believe this thread isn't already closed...
I also agree with everything that was said. Another issue that chaps my ass is the retards running rampant in development threads. Shame that the knowledgeable, skilled developers are treated like dogs while idiots who can't even make a phone call are allowed to clog up threads and curse at people who try to help them.
This forum has very quickly become unbearable to frequent. I know it's a free world and I'm free to post elsewhere, but what drew me to xda was its reputation as a true developer's site. Very sad to see what it's become.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App
Ya, I also agree. It's a mess around here. This site was always my first stop in the morning. Now I hit Rootz Wiki and a few others.
And the General forum. Sheesh!
Agreed. With everything said here. This place is a cluster***.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
The best way to search threads is to go to google....
Then type what you want and at the end of your search criteria;
Type "xda"
This will pull the thread you need right up.
Hope this helps.
I have to agree as well. I don't know how the other phone sections are looking, but the Nexus S section is way too messy, not to mention the fact that 2 of the best Roms (GPA19 and Oxygen) are not even on this site. You gotta ask why the good developers are not on this site anymore. Yet Drew Garen's crap is everywhere. I have been using this site for over 4 years and this is the worst it has ever been. Something needs to change, and quickly.
*UPDATE* Jesus, as I was typing this the thread was moved. This is exactly what we are talking about here. Quit doing this stupid ****.
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks you basically need to learn how to use the forums, rather than expect them to suit your ideal. There's a few million other members to consider.
Lets see:
Sprint user
Sprint user
Sprint user
Sprint user
Sprint user
Sprint user
Not defined
Orange....
makes me wonder
Listen you guys...if you seem to have an issue with anything on this site and have already contacted "The Mods" and have not been replied properly..contact the Administrators with your concerns instead of opening yet another "Boo-hoo..I hate this site and everything it stands for but I'ma continue to download anyway" thread.
Thread closed because I felt the need to do so and to flex my Mod muscles....Ta-ta
M_T_M