Related
frankly: this sucks big time. the theme section is so crowded with themes for all the dream and magic and cyanogen mods, our few hero themes disappear. looking into the theme thread i can only find one(!) theme for the hero on the first page. also the titles are not always indicating clearly for what device/rom the themes were made.
seriously guys, at least give us a subforum for hero themes. i didn't see the problem with posting them here (in the thread called "themes and apps"), are you really expecting me to go through hundreds of themes for the dream, to find the hero themes? come on...
Agree, sucks....
Whats wrong with having the themes for the hero in the thread entitled "HERO Themes and Applications"
It needs to have every post title changed to show what device/ROM its for before its usable.
I agree too, even with edited titles, it's still going to be messy and we'll end up missing most of the themes for Hero as they will just get lost in the flood of G1 themes
I have to agree as-well, the hero themes does not work with any other phone anyway
This sucks...
Yes, it sucks!
I did my first Themes and now nobody can find it.
Have to agree lumping all the themes from different devices together is a big mistake.
I would suggest, that either:
- The themes be left here on the "HTC Hero Themes and Applications";
- Or, that subforums for the phone models be made on the "Android Themes" section.
Agreed, this is a horrible way to compile everything. Only reason I am even posting this is so the mod team can see they made a mistake by the number of people posting about it.
Agreed.
The Hero and G1 themes should be separate.
The G1 has been out a lot longer and it floods the forum (I should know I had one! )
Seriously mods, please rethink your strategy.
Its bad, and its not fair seeing upcoming themes for other devices too lol
While I understand your frustation here, the point is that there is no point in keeping the themes in seperate places.
Almost every theme will run on any rooted phone. Therefore they are being meshed together. Now, Like I've said, Your theme devs, will need to label their posts accordingly so you can sort through them quickly.
For instance, a hero theme would look like this:
[Hero Theme] *title of theme here*
Its a simple thing to do.
This is a benefit to the entire community to do this. Which is why its been done.
Stericson
Every theme runs on every rooted phone??
I can't believe!
No way!
When it is so, I say sorry, but I can't really believe.
we have SenseUI here.
Stericson said:
While I understand your frustation here, the point is that there is no point in keeping the themes in seperate places.
Almost every theme will run on any rooted phone. Therefore they are being meshed together. Now, Like I've said, Your theme devs, will need to label their posts accordingly so you can sort through them quickly.
For instance, a hero theme would look like this:
[Hero Theme] *title of theme here*
Its a simple thing to do.
This is a benefit to the entire community to do this. Which is why its been done.
Stericson
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so you are saying that my rooted hero will run any theme made for g1?
but i downloaded themes for dream, sapphire and found out that maximum image names are different. so how will hero run those themes?
then why we make themes for different devices then? why did u guys make seperate theme sections in the 1st place?
Yes every theme will run on a rooted phone PROVIDED you have the apropriate rom loaded for the specific theme on your Rooted phone....
Stericson said:
Yes every theme will run on a rooted phone PROVIDED you have the apropriate rom loaded for the specific theme on your Rooted phone....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah really funny since we got... wait let me recount... exactly one custom rom for the hero (yes i know there are others, but not really worth to mention).
well i guess we just have to eat the **** they are throwing at us, they are the mods...
Than I don't want to publish my themes here anymore!
It makes now sence, because no one can find them.
for a few days there were many themes at once and every Hero user in this section was happy to use them.
Now....
Sorry, I can see threads and postings from many users, who are not embraced about this changes.
but when the admins and mods are that mind it is better, then we, the themes maker must agree with that.
Admins, mods:
Take it seriously! Everybody thinks, this changes are not good!
carry out soundings of public opinion
Guys lets not give up just yet! I always found xda developers willing to listen to the people in the past after all its THE PEOPLE that make a great forum.
Also try and post comments here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=591137 in one place where our Dream users brothers can also post
Even though I don't like using themes, I cannot see the sense in moving Hero themes to the generic Android themes section. The sub-forum is STILL called 'Hero Themes and Applications' - how ridiculous!
Stericson said:
Yes every theme will run on a rooted phone PROVIDED you have the apropriate rom loaded for the specific theme on your Rooted phone....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So its not true that all themes run on all phones. Your phone has to be rooted, AND it has to have the appropriate ROM loaded for that specific theme.
Goodness. That's kinda a lot to look for in a theme.
I been searching all over the web for a decent LCARS PADD skin for android
well got tired of looking decided to go ahead and make one for myself
This is my first Attempt at making a functional Lcars system
lot of hours went into searching and interface design simple to use
pain to design anyways let me know what you guys think this version is the first and is subject to change
download sweeterhome beta 2 first
and choose theme
then search for
graytrek_Galaxy_s_edition
UPDATE
Hey guys been getting questions about lcars system in color well currently I am working on just that!
Something minimalistic at the same time very efficient as far as functionality and theme wise will be posting
screenshots later today
discontiued
hey guys im going to go ahead and stop providing support on my lcars theme i put alot of time into designing a theme that functioned and looked good aswell
but support for my work was pretty much none so unfortunately that is my de-motivator anyways best of luck guys
thanks to those who downloaded and tried it but this is me bidding adieu
That looks awesome. Cant wait to get my fascinate to try out that theme.
UPDATE
for those asking for a colored theme here you go
So awesome! I think I just found my new android setup.
One thing, you didn't link the apk for the the color version, but I can be patient.
Thanks for your work!
just search keyword trek and it will probably be at the bottom of the list
cybertang said:
just search keyword trek and it will probably be at the bottom of the list
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks I found it, didn't realize you get the skins after installing SweeterHome
So awesome
N E IDEAS
Ok guys im open to suggestions on themes right now im in the process of designing some non-trek themes all as functional so let me know ideas if you like my work please rate and leave comments thanks
It happened something i don't like and i don't understand...
liamstears took all my themed apps (about 70 of them) and all my icons from framework-res.apk an com.htc.resources.apk of my Mixed_Theme and he made his new theme with name Theme Animation 3.6.0...
I don't know how i must react...
Now the 2 themes are almost the same as they have almost all the same icons...
I can't understand why he did that...
I think that every themer must have his own identity. If you see all the themers such as he_stheone64, MaxDroid, david1171, alexdiaz, vistagamer, djdarkknight96 and others i forget now, they have their own identity and their own icons in their themes.
But with much disappointment, i realise that liamstears took almost all the icons from my Mixed_Theme, than making his own work.
I understand that to make an original theme by your own and from beggining neads much, much, much, much and much work. But it totally UNFAIR to take all icons ready made and finished from others themes.... It's tottally UNFAIR and HUGE mistake...
So in my opinion, liamstears didn't respect at all the Noumerous Hours that I spent to give to other users my viewpoint of how can their Desire HD, look like...
So to prove all these things i am saying If you see his old .zip files he had about 10 themed apps in system/app and now he has 70 apps all themed by ME... Also If you open his new theme (i mean all the .apks from his new theme) and also open all the .apks from my Mixed_Theme you will see that he has used almost all my icons...
In the beggining i didn't give much attention, but as i opened all the .apks he has in his new theme calling Theme Animation 3.6.0, everywhere there were MY icons...
The only sure thing is that we both like colorful themes. And to prove that you can see in my signature that i have made Mixed_Theme for my Milestone too, about 6-7 months ago and it was also colorful...But the BIG difference here is that we both like colorful themes doesn't mean that we must the same icons too...
How can now the users, of Desire HD section, decide what theme to use, if there are 2 theme almost the same???
I honestly admire the work of every themer here in xda, including liamstears and i also honestly admire liamstears for his several MODs (like Browser MOD which removes the limit of 5 opened tabs) and in description of my Mixed_Theme i mentioned him for that MOD, but i can not seat here and just watch things happening... and as i explain in P.S. in bottom, the MODs are different and to take all .pngs are different...
I was very tired to make my Mixed_Theme, as all themers who makes original themes by their own. We are talking about 2000 icons and about 3 weeks of work with 6-7 hours/day and i made all icons ONE by ONE from begging...
I can say more things but i am so tired and disappointed... So i stop here...
So here is the right thing that in my opinion can be done:
Conclusions are yours, but as you can understand if liamstears doesn't delete his new theme and try to give you his own theme and make his own icons from beggining, i must delete mine.... as there is no point for users to have 2 same themes with very little differences... So i will wait 1 day...
P.S. All themers, including me, take several MODs from Developers (brightness, PowerControlBar in notification bar, Modded apps like Black HtcDialer, etc). For example to include the Black HTCDialer.apk in my Mixed_Theme, i first asked he_stheone64 (as he is the developer of Black HTCDialer.apk) and after he gave me the permission, i included in my Mixed_Theme.... So to take several MODs, with the permission of developer who maded, it's completly different thing, of taking of one theme all the icons and to put them in your theme... And that is because 1)users will have 2 same themes and most important 2)you don't respect the work and the spended hours of the themer you took the icons.
The whole thing about Android is openess, but if someone's work is being used without permission or without credit being given then that's not good etiquette.
It's not for me to take sides here as I haven't used either theme but I hope you guys manage to sort things out
CitizenLee said:
The whole thing about Android is openess, but if someone's work is being used without permission or without credit being given then that's not good etiquette.
It's not for me to take sides here as I haven't used either theme but I hope you guys manage to sort things out
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree with you. If someone wants to use others hard worked resources, he should definitely rely on owner's decision. I have worked on CM 6.1.3 themes and know exactly how painful task it is. Respect others hard work and bring your own ideas instead of using someone's and giving credit to yourself (without even asking him!).
If this is a formal complaint .....PM at your earliest convenience.
Cheers,
M_T_M
M_T_M said:
If this is a formal complaint .....PM at your earliest convenience.
Cheers,
M_T_M
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So i saw right now you are our Moderator here in Desire HD section...
So what is your suggestion for all these???
All i am saying can be easely proved...
CitizenLee said:
The whole thing about Android is openess, but if someone's work is being used without permission or without credit being given then that's not good etiquette.
It's not for me to take sides here as I haven't used either theme but I hope you guys manage to sort things out
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, but that's different from open source idea...
If all of you have 2 themes almost the same, what's the point???
Every themer must have his own viewpoint on how your phones could be look like...
And every themer must have the guts to work hard to present to the users something different...
I understand where your irritation is coming from. I've had two of my large scale themes taken by a particular user and then passed off as completely his own work with him asking for donations for all his hard work. The same user is still using various fragments of my work and claiming it as his own (some people will never learn).
While is annoying and irritating, I don't think it is big enough reason to stop what you are doing. There are always going to be people that will take your work and use it or pass it off as their own. I don't think you should delete your thread/theme and stop releasing it to people as long as you still enjoy doing it.
I don't care if people ask me if they can use my work (and if someone doesn't credit me, as long as they aren't trying to pass it off all of it off as his/her own work and/or asking donations for it). In my threads, I put up a file with all my images and xml files so people don't have to rip all the images out of the various apk's, and they will only have the images from the apk's that I have themed and not the stock images in there as well.
Edit1: I was looking at the last page of your thread, and it appears that you have some users that really like your theme and enjoy using it.
Think of it this way, if people are taking your work, then you're doing something right.
david1171 said:
I understand where your irritation is coming from. I've had two of my large scale themes taken by a particular user and then passed off as completely his own work with him asking for donations for all his hard work. The same user is still using various fragments of my work and claiming it as his own (some people will never learn).
While is annoying and irritating, I don't think it is big enough reason to stop what you are doing. There are always going to be people that will take your work and use it or pass it off as their own. I don't think you should delete your thread/theme and stop releasing it to people as long as you still enjoy doing it.
I don't care if people ask me if they can use my work (and if someone doesn't credit me, as long as they aren't trying to pass it off all of it off as his/her own work and/or asking donations for it). In my threads, I put up a file with all my images and xml files so people don't have to rip all the images out of the various apk's, and they will only have the images from the apk's that I have themed and not the stock images in there as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look mate, i have done such much work (as you did also) that i have changed almost ALL icons in ALL apps in /system/app. So there are not many icons left to be changed...
And the hole point for me is saperated in 2 things:
1) what's the point to be out there 2 same themes???
2) As i respect the work of all other developers-themers i demand the others to respect mine....
By the way i like colorful themes and you like minimalistics.... So users have 2 different choices... that's how the things should be.... Every themer to deposit his clear opinion.... And as i said both me and liamstears like the colorful themes... So the right thing would be for him to seat infront of his computer and search and port different colorful icons to users...
But that takes much much time, so the ready icons are sweeter....
Whilst I totally understand your point I guess you should consider this: if your work is good enough to be "copied" or "used" by someone other and claimed as his/her own, then it's good work really!
That not asking is totally lacking finesse and etiquette is another consideration of course...
I assume you contacted the thief?
mrmad23 said:
Whilst I totally understand your point I guess you should consider this: if your work is good enough to be "copied" or "used" by someone other and claimed as his/her own, then it's good work really!
That not asking is totally lacking finesse and etiquette is another consideration of course...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see the point of you, but in my opinion in the same section there is no reason all you to have 2 same themes....
JCopernicus said:
I assume you contacted the thief?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't like to use such words...
Of course i contacted him, and after i did that he put my name in the bottom of his first post...
But i haven't realise from beggining what excatlly he have done... After i downloaded his new theme and i opened every single apk i realise the HUGE mistake of his....
In every .apk has almost all my icons...
And when i realise what was going on, i decided to make this thread and of course i didn't notify him...
I am confused now also
You seemed fine when we talked in private but now you are trying to humilate me and make me look stupid? Why? What is the point of this?
At the end of the day BOTH of us have spent days/weeks/hours on each of our themes, BOTH of us have done lots of work and BOTH of us deserve the praise for the work we have done.
Yes I have used quite a few icons from your theme but why is that different to you using multiple amounts of mods and ideas from other people?
Our themes are different and are ment for different people, the most important icons in out themes are different, a couple of icons I released in that theme of yours were a quick release why I make some of my own as I had lots of requests and just wanted to fill them requests asap.
We both have our own tastes and both want to do our own thing so why cant we just get on with it in a civilised manor?
And if our themes are so similar then why did you release yours in the first place? Knowing that mine is already there which is what yours was going to be anyway?
At the end of the day your crying because someone is using icons from your theme but hey wait a minute, If I look into your theme oh wait a minute you didnt make all of it! You have used many mods from other people and even used icons from other people! I see 1 of your icons you even got from me! I know because I say there with photoshop when I didnt like 1 icon and now you have it exactly the same!
Android OS = Open source!
Everything you release is released knowing that anyone can do what they want with it basically.
I have mentioned you in my thread and thanked you for icons but that is all thats needed, this thread isnt.
You should continue to make your theme but really you should loose the attitude.
You didn't use few of my icons, you used almost ALL my icons... and you took over about 60 apps themed by Me in system/app...
And in the morning we talked I haven't realised exactly what you did...
I don't want to humiliate you, I wrote that I admire you for you MODs like the Browser MOD you did...
But now I am telling this for 1000time...
THERE ARE 2 SAME THEMES OUT THERE...
So if you don't delete your theme and try to make it from begging to show your viewpoint you will force me to delete Mine Theme...
And in you last theme obviously you didn't spend much time...
In previous themes yes I agree you have done good work, but not in your last one, as you used almost ALL my icons and not just FEW...
And I DIDN'T take a single icon from anybody that's for sure...
And if you think I'm crying what can I say???
I agree Android=Open Source but you tell me what's the point to exist 2 same THEMES out there for the users????
P.S Read few post above to see the opinion of another themer here and try to realise that it's nothing wrong with my attitude but with yours...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme
Liamstears, there's a difference between open source and being polite. It's fine if you're modifying Kalagas work, and use it for yourself, but repack it as your own and release it is just wrong.
Now, just say that you're sorry, and that's it. And next time, i hope you'll ask before you release other peoples work without permission.
Liamstears, copyright still exists in open source. You can never claim the work as your own, unless explicitly given that right by the copyright holder.
My most important point here is that if one themer takes almost all icons from another themer, then the users will be confused and they will not be able to select a theme for their phone... That's why I insist that every one of the themers must have their unique identity...
And unfortunately the identity of a theme is made by how it's be looking, that means by the icons...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme
leppie said:
Liamstears, copyright still exists in open source. You can never claim the work as your own, unless explicitly given that right by the copyright holder.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BazookaAce said:
Liamstears, there's a difference between open source and being polite. It's fine if you're modifying Kalagas work, and use it for yourself, but repack it as your own and release it is just wrong.
Now, just say that you're sorry, and that's it. And next time, i hope you'll ask before you release other peoples work without permission.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with both of you and that is why he is mentioned in my thread and thanked for his icons but what I dont get it why he was ok with it and then decided to open this thread?
Also im sorry if hes p***** off I didnt mean to but I dont see why hes going to the extent of saying he will delete his theme theres no need for that. He does good work and should keep it up, people like his theme and mine for different reasons and people choose 1 or the other and people like the choice, you shouldnt take it down.
kalagas said:
My most important point here is that if one themer takes almost all icons from another themer, then the users will be confused and they will not be able to select a theme for their phone... That's why I insist that every one of the themers must have their unique identity...
And unfortunately the identity of a theme is made by how it's be looking, that means by the icons...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine is designed to use 1 of my 2 skins and when skins are used the themes look completely different
They were a lot users that liked your previous releases too...
Now all users that liked my theme, they find it also in your latest release...
I'm not extent it cause I am bad guy or anything else, I just say that there is no reason to exist 2 same THEMES in the same section...
That's all...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme
kalagas said:
They were a lot that liked your previous releases too...
Now all users that liked my theme, they find it also in your latest release...
I'm not extent it cause I am bad guy or anything else, I just say that there is on season to exist 2 same THEMES in the same section...
That's all...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I understand and agree BUT I think themes are different, I have had people say they prefer your theme to mine and people say they prefer mine to yours after my 3.6.0 release, both themes should exist
But how can be different themes if both use almost the same icons in all apps in system/app and almost the same icons in framework-res.apk and in com.HTC. resources.apk
There are no other icons inside the phone...
Sent from my DesireHD with Mixed_Theme
Hey Guys!
Please note that all things discussed in this thread should be related to development, ideas, constant updates on progress and should not be filled with "Someone Make This" or "Any News", any of this i will request be deleted by mods, if we had News We'd give it to you, if you want something done, do it yourself
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay, So as some of you may have noticed, Development started off slow for our humble Desire C, it has peaked recently, and has no died down again, i wont be releasing anymore Roms for this device and will end up no longer supporting my Roms or this device! Development is dead!
HOWEVER:
The Device does still have work to be done, and this is a thread to bring each member of the Desire C community together, it should help the device get a little more development (by those who are motivated to do so), come here with all your problems, errors, and SOLOUTIONS for Bugs. Not " can you fix this "
THIS WILL BE STRICTLY ON TOPIC AT ALL TIME!
Okay so now what?
Well, if you are interested on how to develop for this device, but just don't know how, search for a tutorial, and post errors here, team up and create themed roms if you must, but you can't let this little device just die out! If it came to it, the whole community could each come up with a super Rom for the Desire C!
Thanks are mandatory, if someone post constructively, thank it, it's generosity that entices devs, thanks=Motivation, Motivation=Progress!
So Pull together and get this development up and running! Come on guys, if someone has a super fast computer they can use to develop on, team up with someone who has the know how and build!!! Come on guys, i wanna see constructive discussions and teamwork here! i'm trying to pick this device back up, SO COME ON!!!!!!
AND REMEMBER TO RESPECT AND THANK EACHOTHER, IF I SEE A POST THAT ISNT THANKED BY AT LEAST ONE PERSON I SHALL NOT BE HAPPY!
Hey,
I have already pm'd a few on here.
I have a "spare" desire c and am willing to test anything. I have a little knowledge of adb and am currently reading through all I can about development.
I will help in any way I can.
This is a good idea.
Once I have my new beasty PC I will be developing casually. Any help is very much appreciated. This thread should get stickied!
sent from CM10'd Desire C
Me to I am working on an Xperia z like themed rom and need help to fix things
Firstly storage strings make ssettings f2f
Seconst visualizer and download music info fc
Fix for storage are apps which help us to monitor and use mass sstorage
Any help from u guys would he thanked and appreciated and thanks penguin449 for such an awesome thread
Sent from my HTC Desire C using xda app-developers app
"Stock based" "themed" roms dont come under development.
speed_bot said:
"Stock based" "themed" roms dont come under development.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We understand this Speed_bot, however the theme created would then be posted in themes and apps, but progress is progress! And no offence to you @aman23091998 but iv'e already made an Xperia Z Rom so theres no point having two, that's not progress.. And it's a little annoying that, i made cm10 with crt, then you did, iv'e made an Xperia z rom, and now you must? Make something different, in the way of progress?? prehaps your own creation? Or look at other popular roms from other devices and make a port of a decent looking rom? Or find some apks and build your own custom ROM? I'm sure you would get help from the creator of Darkbreed with theming and png editting!
Progress is expansion, new android versions, Different Roms, not variations of one Rom! I think this is one of the reasons development flops on this device!
penguin449 said:
We understand this Speed_bot, however the theme created would then be posted in themes and apps, but progress is progress! And no offence to you @aman23091998 but iv'e already made an Xperia Z Rom so theres no point having two, that's not progress.. And it's a little annoying that, i made cm10 with crt, then you did, iv'e made an Xperia z rom, and now you must? Make something different, in the way of progress?? prehaps your own creation? Or look at other popular roms from other devices and make a port of a decent looking rom? Or find some apks and build your own custom ROM? I'm sure you would get help from the creator of Darkbreed with theming and png editting!
Progress is expansion, new android versions, Different Roms, not variations of one Rom! I think this is one of the reasons development flops on this device!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i know that therre is some sort of coincidence.
The z rom is different.
the base is a rom which i ported then many advance stuff.
z settings
lockscreen
wallpaper
calculator
dialer
msg
socialife
facebook with z
playstation cerified
walkman
album and mo wigets
profile works
trackid
notes
z ui like themed play store
themes disabled
launcher
bla
bla bla
speed_bot said:
"Stock based" "themed" roms dont come under development.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know.
However, this kind of "development" that used to fill the development forums here in ye goode olde day
And I need somewhere to start, now don't I?
Please don't rage
sent from CM10'd Desire C
Phenziox said:
I know.
However, this kind of "development" that used to fill the development forums here in ye goode olde day
And I need somewhere to start, now don't I?
Please don't rage
sent from CM10'd Desire C
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why not try decompiling the systemui.apk and editting EVERYTHING, not just colour but the .pngs, and see what happens, if it turns out good, swap some launchers and mms.apk, and make a themed AOSP Rom
penguin449 said:
Why not try decompiling the systemui.apk and editting EVERYTHING, not just colour but the .pngs, and see what happens, if it turns out good, swap some launchers and mms.apk, and make a themed AOSP Rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I've been playing with that thought for a while
sent from CM10'd Desire C
Are there very less developers creators and makers for the xperia Z????
I check this forum regularly and dont see any new updates or roms or mods for this phone...
when I checked the samsung phones, the devs, creators are so many...is it because it's easy to make for samsung devices and harder for xperia z???? Why don't I see new mods and roms...
However, the ppl who are making it for us...I really appreciate it and to be honest...I love their job as they make something beneficial for us to use on the Xperia Z...!! But i don't see that allot..!!
Also..another question is
is it easy to make mods and roms???
I'll like to try to make..as I'm free nowadays...!!
ronak123456 said:
Are there very less developers creators and makers for the xperia Z????
I check this forum regularly and dont see any new updates or roms or mods for this phone...
when I checked the samsung phones, the devs, creators are so many...is it because it's easy to make for samsung devices and harder for xperia z???? Why don't I see new mods and roms...
However, the ppl who are making it for us...I really appreciate it and to be honest...I love their job as they make something beneficial for us to use on the Xperia Z...!! But i don't see that allot..!!
Also..another question is
is it easy to make mods and roms???
I'll like to try to make..as I'm free nowadays...!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure these forums disagree slightly....
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2087
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2088