Database Develop

My 0,02$ about Gear

My first smartwatch ever was the original Sony Smartwatch 1. First of it's kind widely available, it was a pretty good product (if you compare the features to it's price). I bought Galaxy Gear few weeks ago shortly after startup for it's original price of 300 euros. I had it for few days and decided to return it, as this is a beta product with no support at all (at that time). So I returned the Gear and got Smartwatch 2 from Sony.. and that watch is really cool. It's waterproof to some point, it's very VERY light, super comfortable and you can even change the wrist stripe if you don't like the original one. It costs 150 EUR for silicon version, and 200 EUR for metal version here in Netherlands. So it's up to 50% cheaper than the Gear. Out of the box, you only have to install few applications to get messages, and notification to work. Installation is super easy and it works with nearly all devices running android 4.0 or higher. It's a nice device, but lack any kind of customization - and so far there haven't been any tools to change anything in the watch at all. Lately I got a chance to get a Gear for less than 200 EUR so I decided to give it another try, and here it is..
1. After using Smartwatch 2 for a while Gear feels more solid, but it's way more bulky. It doesn't rest nicely on my wrist, and I'm not a huge guy. I could survive uncomfortable top, but the metal bottom (where speaker and mic are located) is catastrophic. I can't stand having the watch on my wrist if I'm working on my desk, as it's touching the desk all the time and leaves scratches. Very annoying.
2. Installation. I had to change my custom ROM to original TouchWiz on my S3 to get Gear to work. Maybe it can work on custom - but there would be more troubles with it than stock so.. To get the full functionality, and don't run into endless troubles, you have to be stock, where SW2 works on custom roms without a single issue.
3. Out of the box experience.. it's a tragedy. The 'main menu' is really slow to operate, and even switching between apps can take few precious seconds. Notifications do not work properly. I have to use 3rd party app to get more notifications. No SMS forwarding to your watch. No replying to messages. No Gmail support. No keyboard. Simply nothing! Out of the box this is just a bluetooth headset with a clock. I don't know anyone who is really using S Voice on a daily basis. Samsung promised us making calls straight from our wrists, and Samsung did deliver that but..
4. Speaker quality - if you are using more than 50% of volume level, you can clearly hear a lot of buzzing. Sound is far from being clear. Not a huge issue though, it's a watch after all.
5. Hardware. Builtin camera that takes decent pictures and videos (as for a watch). Big plus! Loudspeaker so you don't have to hold your wrist to your ear - nice, although sometimes I would prefer to be the only one who can hear the other side (and look like an idiot, I don't care). AMOLED display with 320x320 resolution. Looks really sharp and vivid. Love it! Smartwatch is running a real Android 4.2.2, and that's great. You can root it, sideload apps and so.. but...
6. Usability - but it's pretty useless. There is no bluetooth tethering so you can't use any internet on your wrist (smartwatch 2 has a working internet browser!). You can install app like Tablet Talk to have messaging ability but it's really cumbersome, doesn't display your contact list, only the numbers are visible and generally, you can clearly see that it just wasn't designed for a wrist. I guess runninng Tablet Talk on Gear AND phone uses more battery which results in shorter battery life...
7. Typing. I can easily imagine typing short sentences/messages using Swype-like keyboard, or T9 styled. Display is big enough to send few words within seconds. Unfortunately that is not possible at the moment.
8. Future? There is definitely a future in smartwatches. This device is great, but Samsung tottaly ****ed up the software side. Nothing is working as it should, and if it does - it's cumbersome, and far from being user friendly. You can't get apps from Play Store, you have to use Samsung App Store which is really poor. There are very few apps that are actually somewhat usefull, but they do suck. I tried app like speedometer, that takes ages to start and catch a signal, and if it finally does - it's really ugly. SW2 to compare was displaying current GPS speed within seconds. When I was done with it, all I had to is just go back to home screen, or turn on the clock face, then GPS was stopped. On Gear? You have to open notifications, click on Speedometer, and FORCE STOP it in order to be closed. WHAAAAT?
I love the idea, I like the features (AMOLED, speaker, mic, touchscreen) but there way more wrong things with it than positive.. Media Controller doesn't always work properly, so you can't really shuffle songs etc. There is no SDK available to the publicity, so there won't be any dedicated apps from community anytime soon. Samsung didn't say anything that they will release it anyway so... if you buy the Gear, don't buy it cause it's gonna be "great in the future once XDA devs hack it". It didn't happen, noone knows if it's going to happen and what will come out of it...
I would really suggest waiting for next generation. But if you have spare cash, and can get the Gear cheaper than original price - go for it...

I don't think you would any of these problems if you use a samsung supported phone (N3, or S4 with latest update.)

skyline23 said:
I don't think you would any of these problems if you use a samsung supported phone (N3, or S4 with latest update.)
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I'm using official Android 4.3 firmware provided by Samsung. S3 is officially supported.

hurdlejade said:
I'm using official Android 4.3 firmware provided by Samsung. S3 is officially supported.
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To each his own. I'm sure the camera, mic and speaker and ability to use S Voice to respond to messages all work wonderfully on the SW2.

mhoepfin said:
To each his own. I'm sure the camera, mic and speaker and ability to use S Voice to respond to messages all work wonderfully on the SW2.
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out of the box, SW2 beats Gear in every aspect, if you forget the camera/mic/speaker. S Voice? i guess it's only widely used in USA. i see a lot of people on the internet asking how to actually turn this thing off. it's one of the first things i did when i installed official 4.3 rom.
this is not a hate post. i just tried both products, they are both far from being perfect, and although gear seems to be superior, it lacks the software. and we shouldn't wait months for basic functionality that hardware is fully capable of.

It's all personal choice. I have both Sony s2 and the gear and in my opinion the gear is far better.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

ardsar said:
It's all personal choice. I have both Sony s2 and the gear and in my opinion the gear is far better.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
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may i know why is it better? besides the camera/speaker/mic/svoice thingy.

It's my opinion and personal taste. .. It looks more like a watch rather than a big Square thing on your wrist. The Sony is only a second screen and is like a dumb terminal in that it can't run anything ( the Internet app you mention runs on the phone and relays the image to the watch) and you can't ignore the fact that it has a camera speaker Mike and svoice.
It's best to drop this thread like I said it's all personal opinion.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

ardsar said:
It's my opinion and personal taste. .. It looks more like a watch rather than a big Square thing on your wrist. The Sony is only a second screen and is like a dumb terminal in that it can't run anything ( the Internet app you mention runs on the phone and relays the image to the watch) and you can't ignore the fact that it has a camera speaker Mike and svoice.
It's best to drop this thread like I said it's all personal opinion.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
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i just wanted to find out why you prefer gear over SW2, that's it.
i do realise that the internet browser on SW2 works more or less on screenshots.. but it works! and there is no possibility to do so on Gear, although it's capable of real rendering.

Owning 2 Galaxy Gear I guess you can tell I like it. With more and more things being added to the ability of the Gear such as ATN and launchers, etc it is growing leaps and bound sans Samsung. There are 2 versions of Sony out there and this has been out weeks. I say write this after February when it has been thru a few updates. I don't need my watch to do everything the phones does or i wouldn't have bought a 5.7 inch phone. The great things is competition is great and I'm sure Apple is gearing up for theirs and then someone will come and beat theirs and so on and so on. Consumerism at it's best.

Oh yeah, it's not consumer ready at all. But for the hacker/maker crowd out there, it's by far and away the best.
Phone calls.. you can make phone calls from your wrist!!! Come ON that's so cool. You can hack out the click sounds and take super secret spy photos from your wrist....
I have a freakin' game boy emulator .. I can play pokemon on my watch!
HELLO this is like the dream
YES .. the speaker scratching is a problem on my mac book pro, I have to pull up my long sleeve shirt over the bottom to keep it from scraping across the laptop which annoys me as well.
Not sure how they're going to fix that.

There are already enough of these threads here...
The watch des exactly what it says. It is a companion to phone, not a replacement (Why does a watch actually need software?)
it also has mic/speaker/cam which all work surprising well. Didn't take long to adjust to bulky speaker when resting palm on flat surface (mind I wear it a little loose)
There are several default notifications that are sent that everyone has - sms, email, etc. Granted they could do with more detail (html emails, all text in notification), however that will have to come when apps start supporting it - 4.3 helps a lot here
it is waterproof enough - that whole thing seems to be a scare campaign. All the watches available can survive water, just not to the extent of swimming/diving
Gear looks the best out of the watches available and once you use it for a few weeks, then the chance of wanting to return is much lower. I'd say my Pebble does more currently (especially tasker integration!), however, I've not touched it since getting gear a month ago
It only supports 4.3 and Touchwiz, but if you look at the percentage of s3, note2, s4, note3, and future phones, there is no need to support others. Will people complain when apple come out with a watch and it only supports two devices like pretty much everything else they do? (latest and previous model)
Samsung really need to get a move on with releasing sdk though
Plus it is first gen, so it can't have everything. Just be thankful you aren't with Apple and have to wait years for stuff everyone already has
Still going to try out Neptune Pine when it is released, but it is a replacement not companion

blazespinnaker said:
Oh yeah, it's not consumer ready at all. But for the hacker/maker crowd out there, it's by far and away the best.
Phone calls.. you can make phone calls from your wrist!!! Come ON that's so cool. You can hack out the click sounds and take super secret spy photos from your wrist....
I have a freakin' game boy emulator .. I can play pokemon on my watch!
HELLO this is like the dream
YES .. the speaker scratching is a problem on my mac book pro, I have to pull up my long sleeve shirt over the bottom to keep it from scraping across the laptop which annoys me as well.
Not sure how they're going to fix that.
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Click to collapse
I'm enjoying my Gear paired with Note 3. Still completely stock, and I can see how some might think the price is steep for what it currently does. But again, I am ok with what I paid for it, knowing what it does so far and knowing what lays in store for it in the future.
I need to read up on rooting and side loading. How effective is a gameboy emulator on the small screen? Seems like there wouldn't be enough room

Awesome
Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

hurdlejade said:
I would really suggest waiting for next generation. But if you have spare cash, and can get the Gear cheaper than original price - go for it...
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Snipped For Space!
At 73, I cannot play the waiting game. With smartwatches, women, and fastazz motorcycles..
I want and need it NOW!!
About you comments, they seemed to be like the case of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter..
BTW, can you answer and call from the SW2?? :fingers-crossed:

I also have a Sony Smartwatch 2. It's a great watch and the SDK support is superb. I recently bought the Gear and my first impression was
1. Wow, smaller than I thought. Because of the design less bulkier than the SW2. Way more stylish (up to a point even my gf thought that i didn't look like a total nerd)
2. Much better resolution and much clearer display
3. Touch response is so much better than the SW2
4. Awful charging method..
5. Miss the always on mode that the Sony has. The magical movement thing to wake up the Gear does work in say 75% of the time for me. The other 25% makes it a bad experience as a watch. Maybe I still have to get the hang of it and learn to make the movement work.. or maybe I have to adapt myself. Have the watch for 2 days now, I'm still learning and not ready to give an overall conclusion.
6 Apps.... yep the Sony has a lot more apps and yes there's a browser out there. But it also has a lot of weird amateuristic apps in the Play store (not made by Sony). I somehow am appreciating Samsung's approach now after a couple of days of using the Gear. They've teamed up with some good third party developers (a few not so good also) and seem to be very careful about what they release on the market right now. Seems like a good thing to me. I bet you can trash a potential goood product that still has to prove itself as a thing that could work by opening it for badly written and designed apps. Good thing to go easy on this. Nevertheless as a developer I love to jump on the bandwagon... But I understand that somehow one needs to direct the experience of a new product. Too many apps that do just half of what you can do can ruin the experience totally. (That said, they might have released the watch too early. On the other side, by releasing it early they now can work on a lot of feedback. It's a decision they've made and it is a decision that comes with a trade off (bad reviews), but in the end it might be the best decision. Nobody knows and nobody will know)

mike208 said:
I'm enjoying my Gear paired with Note 3. Still completely stock, and I can see how some might think the price is steep for what it currently does. But again, I am ok with what I paid for it, knowing what it does so far and knowing what lays in store for it in the future.
I need to read up on rooting and side loading. How effective is a gameboy emulator on the small screen? Seems like there wouldn't be enough room
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Are you kidding me! It's AWESOME ... well I have long thin fingers though. I use gameboid.
They could probably optimize the control setup on gameboid for the watch a bit more.
Sideloading is easy to do, don't need to root. I highly recommend it.
1. Wow, smaller than I thought. Because of the design less bulkier than the SW2. Way more stylish (up to a point even my gf thought that i didn't look like a total nerd)
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Click to collapse
Agreed. People have commented that the watch looks great. Sony with it's geeky logo and buttons... come ON.
That being said, there are pros/cons to them all. I'd *love* the battery life of the pebble on the Gear, but I can't go without having Android on my watch. That's just a non starter (for me), but I'm a developer so my opinion is entirely unreflective of the market at large .. but I love it, so who cares.
The one huge problem with the gear, in my opinion, is the lack of compatibility. That's what is really pissing 99% of the world out there that doesn't have a Note 3, frankly. This bundling nonsense is so deeply arrogant. It's monopolistic and completely unnecessary.
It's what makes you root against a company and pray they fail as an enterprise. It's the same sort of arrogance that makes me despise Apple and why I take every opportunity I can to root against them even though my career is tied up with their technology.

I agree with you on the speaker buckle being annoying, but otherwise, it's not THAT bad.

Off-topic, other device, comparisons to other devices, and upgrading discussion

Please use this thread to discuss devices other than and any comparisons with other devices on or about Gear Live in this thread and any other off-topic issues that are not needing a new thread.
Post with respect, this is a helpful community, hope we all learn from this stuff in here.

What made everyone choose this over the LG G watch?

i went for gear live because it has amoled display and the silver thing on the two side makes the watch look a bit premium
Sent from my SM-N9005 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

big_b0sss said:
i went for gear live because it has amoled display and the silver thing on the two side makes the watch look a bit premium
Sent from my SM-N9005 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Click to collapse
Don't forget it's also $30 less as by the end of the year we ALL know we will be owning superior devices anyways.

enko420 said:
Don't forget it's also $30 less as by the end of the year we ALL know we will be owning superior devices anyways.
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Click to collapse
i actually paid £10 more as its priced higher than lg g watch in uk

I absolutely cannot believe they did not include a speaker! I just returned the gear neo 2 because it was running Tizen and not Google wear. making phone calls on it without pulling my phone out of my pocket was the absolute greatest feature.I ordered the gear live because it was running Google wear, thinking of the future. Now I find out it does not have a speaker so I can not make phone calls from the watch. I'm going to return the gear live and go back to the gear neo 2. Wrong decision Samsung.

chumboy said:
I absolutely cannot believe they did not include a speaker! I just returned the gear neo 2 because it was running Tizen and not Google wear. making phone calls on it without pulling my phone out of my pocket was the absolute greatest feature.I ordered the gear live because it was running Google wear, thinking of the future. Now I find out it does not have a speaker so I can not make phone calls from the watch. I'm going to return the gear live and go back to the gear neo 2. Wrong decision Samsung.
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Click to collapse
I honestly don't care for making phone calls on my Gear 2 Neo. If you aren't in a quiet room its near impossible to hear what they are saying.

enko420 said:
I honestly don't care for making phone calls on my Gear 2 Neo. If you aren't in a quiet room its near impossible to hear what they are saying.
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Click to collapse
To each their own.
But it's fascinating to know you don't like it.
I had the Gear 2 Neo for about a week and had good results when not standing in Time Square.
Gear Live 2!

I would like the ability to turn off the motion sensor, sense everytime I move my wrist a certain way my watch just turns on.I look at my watch ocassionally and notice that the screen is on I have indavertenly been touching the screen selecting things. I prefer to touch the screen to turn it on. I have already turned off the screen always on option, but would like to turn off motion as well. Would extend the battery life alot further.

chumboy said:
To each their own.
But it's fascinating to know you don't like it.
I had the Gear 2 Neo for about a week and had good results when not standing in Time Square.
Gear Live 2!
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Click to collapse
i'm 100% in the not taking phone calls on a watch camp for the same reason i don't use speakerphone when not in a car.
but i would have liked a speaker simply for alarms and stopwatch/timer funcionality. nothing crazy, just a simple beep/chirp would have been enough

adiliyo said:
i'm 100% in the not taking phone calls on a watch camp for the same reason i don't use speakerphone when not in a car.
but i would have liked a speaker simply for alarms and stopwatch/timer funcionality. nothing crazy, just a simple beep/chirp would have been enough
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See, we can find common ground here! A speaker would make us both happy.
Surprised that Sammy decided to remove a hardware feature rather than adding them (to a point).
Their research must have shown that the cost/benefit was upside-down.
So it goes.

They should have stuck with Gear 2 features and gwear os. I'm sure it will be ported.... I love my Neo 2
Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

I have a feeling that Samsung was forced to make the watch according to Google specifications. (No Speaker, No WiFi, Single Button for turning the device on) There is also a WiFi antenna in the Gear Live that is not being used according to iFixIt.

StevenMattera said:
I have a feeling that Samsung was forced to make the watch according to Google specifications. (No Speaker, No WiFi, Single Button for turning the device on) There is also a WiFi antenna in the Gear Live that is not being used according to iFixIt.
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Click to collapse
antenna but they couldn't confirm if there is a wifi controller on the mobo, could just be the cheapest way to order that part for assembly.
i agree that samsung was probably told to stick to the reference design which i'm fine with, but it's curious that google decided not to include a basic speaker for alarm use in the reference design for android wear.
i am however much happier (so far) with the watch than i expected to be. if moto prices the 360 out of what i'm willing to pay, i'm actually satisfied enough to hang on to the gear live until i can get the moto for a reasonable price (i won't pay more than $250 for the 360)
---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------
hashcheck said:
They should have stuck with Gear 2 features and gwear os. I'm sure it will be ported.... I love my Neo 2
Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
i like the general design of the gear 2, but i am so glad that android made wear, i see adoption for this from a developer standpoint to be much much better than any proprietary garbage os that samsung puts out. and personally, i dislike samsung devices (read: touchwiz) and plan to stay away from them for the foreseeable future.

adiliyo said:
i like the general design of the gear 2, but i am so glad that android made wear, i see adoption for this from a developer standpoint to be much much better than any proprietary garbage os that samsung puts out. and personally, i dislike samsung devices (read: touchwiz) and plan to stay away from them for the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know, I've been reading about the gear watches and android wear all day and I still just don't see it. Anything that's on there I would normally pull up my phone for, and the small watch screen version and limited functionality (no speaker, small screen, etc)... I think if I get any notification I'll end up pulling out the phone and responding there anyway... Is this stuff just a lazy persons solution to a problem that doesn't exist?? If wear devices were more like little phones with built in wifi, IR (I think some gear watches had this?!), etc at least you could use it to control your movie watching experiences...
I'm probably just getting old and wanting stuff to stay how I'm used to it

peaklabs.net said:
I don't know, I've been reading about the gear watches and android wear all day and I still just don't see it. Anything that's on there I would normally pull up my phone for,
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Click to collapse
I think that IS the point, so you don't have to pull your phone 100 times a minute for every notification, it is trying to "change" the way we use the phone and not trying to replace it. For all that "extras" (Wifi, Speaker, etc, etc) you have the phone.
I love it, I hardly touch my phone now, the battery life on my phone had gotten so much better and I am more interactive responding to all SMSs and facebook/Whasapp messages than before. :laugh:

peaklabs.net said:
I don't know, I've been reading about the gear watches and android wear all day and I still just don't see it. Anything that's on there I would normally pull up my phone for, and the small watch screen version and limited functionality (no speaker, small screen, etc)... I think if I get any notification I'll end up pulling out the phone and responding there anyway... Is this stuff just a lazy persons solution to a problem that doesn't exist?? If wear devices were more like little phones with built in wifi, IR (I think some gear watches had this?!), etc at least you could use it to control your movie watching experiences...
I'm probably just getting old and wanting stuff to stay how I'm used to it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maturola said:
I think that IS the point, so you don't have to pull your phone 100 times a minute for every notification, it is trying to "change" the way we use the phone and not trying to replace it. For all that "extras" (Wifi, Speaker, etc, etc) you have the phone.
I love it, I hardly touch my phone now, the battery life on my phone had gotten so much better and I am more interactive responding to all SMSs and facebook/Whasapp messages than before. :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the watch essentially becomes a (more useful) implementation of notification triage, i can see what's important and respond to many things without taking out my phone.
it comes down to the user and their daily flow of usage. the big difference with this vs a very limited and closed off system (like samsung's system, or sony's for that matter) is that it leverages two things.
1. android itself as the platform (no seperate market, no need for seperate apps and figuring out how to make sure the apps work with the phone versions)
2. google now, which i think in the long run is going to be the real centerpiece of the platform. as it gets smarter you really will need to use your phone less for basic things since it will offer up the information you need when you need it with even less interaction necessary from the user.
the biggest deal breaker for the samsung system (for me) is the need for a crappy galaxy smartphone. i can't stand touchwiz and the lag samsung's software developers can't seem to get rid of in the many iterations they've had of their software.
i also enjoy the freedom of leaving my phone at my desk, or at home on the charging pad and just checking things on my watch as i go about my day.
i think i like android wear more as i don't want a tiny phone on my wrist to look awkwardly at and speak to people on. i want a companion device that lets me get on with my day and look at my phone less. it's a change in mindset and workflow that pulls you out of your phone and lets you get back into the world.

Yeah ... I'm constantly having to refer to my phone, more with this than I had to with my Galaxy Gear ... After two weeks with it, I feel like I'm done and ready to go back to the Galaxy Gear for good.
But I don't want to give up on it for some reason. I think because what it does do it look better than my Galaxy Gear, in terms of UI. And the always on is very nice.
I dunno ... Maybe I should have just gotten a Gear 2.

sbrownla said:
Yeah ... I'm constantly having to refer to my phone, more with this than I had to with my Galaxy Gear ... After two weeks with it, I feel like I'm done and ready to go back to the Galaxy Gear for good.
But I don't want to give up on it for some reason. I think because what it does do it look better than my Galaxy Gear, in terms of UI. And the always on is very nice.
I dunno ... Maybe I should have just gotten a Gear 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I said in my previous post...I went from the Gear 2 Neo to the Live.
Found out it didn't have a speaker after I ordered it.
Tried it out for 3 days and (same as you) had to refer to my phone more.
Called Google to send it back and the Rep said "yea, surprisingly we're having allot of returns b/c of no speaker and many going back to Gear or Gear 2."
They sent me an email for to fill out stating why I'm returning. She said they're interested in feedback for the next model they release. I hope they listen.
I went back to my Gear 2 Neo and am patiently waiting for the next model (with speaker I hope).
They had the same with the Gear 1, made some changes and launched the Gear 2.
Don't waste your money on something you won't use and be happy with.
Wait for the Gear Live 2.

I think I'm going to suck it up though. When the next one comes out I'll gift it or sell it for $100 or so to subsidize the new one.

G Watch R Disassembly

After all this debate on whether this thing has WiFi support or now, I decided to tear mine apart to provide some better shots of the internals than the crap iFixit teardown.
Tonight, I'll be seeing someone to see if we can get that metal shroud off without damaging the board.
Disassembly Album
Edit: Updated the album with closeup shots of the ICs
Current parts list:
SK Hynix H9TU32A4GDMC-LRKGM - PoP 512 MB LPDDR2 + 4 GB eMMC (same as G Watch)
Qualcomm PM8226 - Power Management IC (same as G Watch)
Qualcomm WCD9302 - Audio Codec (not in G Watch?)
AKM AK8963 - Compass IC (same as G Watch)
Synaptics S3526B - Touch controller (different model in G Watch)
InvenSense MPU-6515 (?) - 3 axis gyro and accelerometer (same as G Watch)
Broadcom BCM4343WKUBG - Bluetooth 4.2 and WiFi b/g/n (different from G Watch)

cgutman said:
After all this debate on whether this thing has WiFi support or now, I decided to tear mine apart to provide some better shots of the internals than the crap iFixit teardown.
Tonight, I'll be seeing someone to see if we can get that metal shroud off without damaging the board.
Disassembly Album
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats awesome man! Looking forward to the pics.

I got the shielding off and as LG claimed, the Broadcom chip (BCM4343WKUBG) supports WiFi. Pics are in my album.
It's also very likely that their "no antenna" excuse is total BS. Given that this specific BCM4343 SKU is specifically designed for WiFi+BT in wearables, Broadcom would be stupid to require 2 antennas in such a small device when 1 would suffice.
Adding further evidence for WiFi support is commits from LG employees working specifically on BCM4343 WiFi support in Android 5.1:
https://android.googlesource.com/pl...an/+/1a8bf7a905f23a1f2948dcbc6a101b443233917e
https://android.googlesource.com/pl...an/+/69ffc0b6785198631bf617a6bad44c51c997fd49

Good job!

Yet LG are still denying that the R is capable of utilizing wifi at all. I guess if it is just LG dragging their feet and the hardware is all there, hopefully someone will port the Urbane kernel for us. Fingers crossed.

finalbillybong said:
Yet LG are still denying that the R is capable of utilizing wifi at all. I guess if it is just LG dragging their feet and the hardware is all there, hopefully someone will port the Urbane kernel for us. Fingers crossed.
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Actually theyve yet to come with an official answer. Which is weird.

I've said it once and I'll said it again, none of the LG customer service reps know the answer to the wifi question. You can call and ask and get a different answer everytime. If the hardware does in fact exist, as the evidence does indicate, then either LG is purposely disabling it to push sales of their watch urbane or we will get the update. We will find out soon enough. If it turns out that WiFi support is purposely omitted then I trust the hive mind that is XDA will figure out how to get it working.

novaIS350 said:
I've said it once and I'll said it again, none of the LG customer service reps know the answer to the wifi question. You can call and ask and get a different answer everytime. If the hardware does in fact exist, as the evidence does indicate, then either LG is purposely disabling it to push sales of their watch urbane or we will get the update. We will find out soon enough. If it turns out that WiFi support is purposely omitted then I trust the hive mind that is XDA will figure out how to get it working.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apparently LG has tweeted about it not having the correct hardware. But i agree with you. These people are probably regular everyday idiots hired just to tweet or answer phones and they have no idea what theyre actually saying. Anyway, i just made this post in another thread about this: forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=60384338&postcount=65

Google are responsible for all current software on Wear devices, LG shouldn't have anything to do with whether the update has wifi or not, if the hardware is capable.

very good job

ChrisM75 said:
Google are responsible for all current software on Wear devices, LG shouldn't have anything to do with whether the update has wifi or not, if the hardware is capable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, lg can retouch the update a bit before releasing it!

Great thread - the news we've been hoping for!

Very good job !!
thx cgutman :good:

m i n a r said:
Nope, lg can retouch the update a bit before releasing it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A bit, doesn't mean remove features.

In a frustrated attempt at an explanation regarding wifi capability of R, one of LG's European workers, when confronted with the FCC report that says the clock has everything you need for wifi, it said that there are differences between the US and european versions and in particular one of the differences would be even wifi (how convenient)!
So the question is ...
Can anyone confirm if there really is a difference between the versions!

Obiwanhug said:
In a frustrated attempt at an explanation regarding wifi capability of R, one of LG's European workers, when confronted with the FCC report that says the clock has everything you need for wifi, it said that there are differences between the US and european versions and in particular one of the differences would be even wifi (how convenient)!
So the question is ...
Can anyone confirm if there really is a difference between the versions!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bs on bs, that's what i think!

This is definitely the last LG product I will purchase. It's complete and utter BS that they can't get this right.

m i n a r said:
Bs on bs, that's what i think!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree with you! However in the end it will be the LG that will decide whether appeals to customers who purchased the Watch R or will be greedy and will want to foist the same device but masi polished for another 100 euros / dollars!
However should be aware that displease old customers will not certainly draw new or maintain they already have !!!

novaIS350 said:
This is definitely the last LG product I will purchase. It's complete and utter BS that they can't get this right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you buy the watch on the promise that it would some day support WiFi? probably not..
Do you expect these customer support people that you've been contacting to really have a clue as to what the future plans of LG are concerning this watch?
Is LG being unusually quiet about this? Yes! But they are probably just taking the "safe" approach.
People complain about features they were never even promised. I can only imagine the feedback they'd get if they made a statement that they couldn't back up.
Just my opinion...

townsenk said:
Did you buy the watch on the promise that it would some day support WiFi? probably not..
Do you expect these customer support people that you've been contacting to really have a clue as to what the future plans of LG are concerning this watch?
Is LG being unusually quiet about this? Yes! But they are probably just taking the "safe" approach.
People complain about features they were never even promised. I can only imagine the feedback they'd get if they made a statement that they couldn't back up.
Just my opinion...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The question is...
If the Watch R really haves the capability of Wi-Fi, why LG don't allow? What they earn? People with a 6 months old device leave it and buy almost the same but more expensive? I don't believe!
But in other hand if the watch really don't have the capability... then bad luck!
The problem is that according with a lot of information and even the Watch release presentation that don't seems to be the case! And like others brands (LG is not alone in this behavior) they are being grief!

Just got Urbane, initial impressions

Snagged one online through Verizon and did overnight delivery. So I'm going to give 2 impressions here
1) Appearance
2) Usabality
For for the 1st impression on appearance the watch is exactly what I wanted, I love the silver, I love the roundness, I LOVE LOVE LOVE a true "always on" screen mode, and I like the leather band. I may actually keep the band for awhile before swapping it out with a silver one somewhere. The watch faces are pretty, the resolution is nice, and the overall appearance of elements is colorful and nice.
EDIT: Ok apparently there was even MORE updates after the initial update payload. I did check that I was running 5.1.1 but after about an hour another "system update swipe left to install" appeared. After that update completed I noticed what appeared to be a bunch more apps sync'ing, such as Maps, Keep, notification toggle, etc. FINALLY once all of these completed the watch appears to have returned to normal and is currently running GREAT. Smooth high fps screen transitions, responsive touch control, responsive voice recognition, etc. Make sure you let this watch sit for a good few hours before attempting to do much with it. Google does A LOT to it in the background at first boot.
For the 1st impression of usability the watch is complete garbage. Lots of "android wear stopped responding", lots of "little cloud indicator showing you have disconnected", and LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of LAAAAGGG!! Omg this watch feels borderline beta, completely unstable. Maybe it's because it has only been running for 15 minutes, and maybe it's because it took half an hour to update (I'm guessing Verizon did not ship it with 5.1.1). The thing took forever on first boot, but now that it's running it's just out of control. Totally unresponsive. You'd seriously think something is wrong with it. You tap the screen nothing happens, you tap it again you feel it buzz but nothing happens, you stop tapping and stare at it for 10 seconds and then suddenly 10 things happen. It's as if the watch is just completely clogged up with background CPU tasks that it's playing catchup. Pretty lousy. I'm hoping this will pass after a day of usage or so.
My only gripe right now is that this is really poor form and only furthers the bragging rights Apple users get. My buddy got an Apple Watch and that thing worked beautiful out of the box. Apple knows customers dont want a ****ty first impression and made sure their devices perform amiably the moment it is powered on. Google apparently doesnt give a **** and anyone is allowed to do whatever they want with their brand, such as crippling Android Wear with a clearly untested product launch.
Oh well, only time will tell.

RunNgun42 said:
Snagged one online through Verizon and did overnight delivery. So I'm going to give 2 impressions here
1) Appearance
2) Usabality
For for the 1st impression on appearance the watch is exactly what I wanted, I love the silver, I love the roundness, I LOVE LOVE LOVE a true "always on" screen mode, and I like the leather band. I may actually keep the band for awhile before swapping it out with a silver one somewhere. The watch faces are pretty, the resolution is nice, and the overall appearance of elements is colorful and nice.
For the 1st impression of usability the watch is complete garbage. Lots of "android wear stopped responding", lots of "little cloud indicator showing you have disconnected", and LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of LAAAAGGG!! Omg this watch feels borderline beta, completely unstable. Maybe it's because it has only been running for 15 minutes, and maybe it's because it took half an hour to update (I'm guessing Verizon did not ship it with 5.1.1). The thing took forever on first boot, but now that it's running it's just out of control. Totally unresponsive. You'd seriously think something is wrong with it. You tap the screen nothing happens, you tap it again you feel it buzz but nothing happens, you stop tapping and stare at it for 10 seconds and then suddenly 10 things happen. It's as if the watch is just completely clogged up with background CPU tasks that it's playing catchup. Pretty lousy. I'm hoping this will pass after a day of usage or so.
My only gripe right now is that this is really poor form and only furthers the bragging rights Apple users get. My buddy got an Apple Watch and that thing worked beautiful out of the box. Apple knows customers dont want a ****ty first impression and made sure their devices perform amiably the moment it is powered on. Google apparently doesnt give a **** and anyone is allowed to do whatever they want with their brand, such as crippling Android Wear with a clearly untested product launch.
Oh well, only time will tell.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been using mine for about an hour and have not seen ANY lag. I have also not disconnected from the phone once. my R did it a few times a day. The first boot and connection did take forever, but mine has been working lag free and perfectly the whole time. I know it is early, but maybe you just got a lemon

Pretty much the same experience here. The initial boot and sync process (then subsequent update) take forever, but after that, this thing is butter.
So far, I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the leather strap. Maybe it just needs time to be broken in, but I'm already eyeing replacements.
Did I mention this thing is GORGEOUS??

L_E_O said:
Pretty much the same experience here. The initial boot and sync process (then subsequent update) take forever, but after that, this thing is butter.
So far, I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the leather strap. Maybe it just needs time to be broken in, but I'm already eyeing replacements.
Did I mention this thing is GORGEOUS??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I am the same as you on the strap..... Maybe because it is just so new, it seem to make the watch hover above my wrist

Hello guys, may I ask you how does the watch work when is connected over WiFi? For example are you able to access to your play music library? Or in general are there some unknown tricks? Thanks and good buy

Korean version Vs US version?
Does anyone know if there is a difference between the Korean version that everyone is getting off ebay Vs. The US version say from Google, Verizon, att&t?

AnthonyTex said:
Hello guys, may I ask you how does the watch work when is connected over WiFi? For example are you able to access to your play music library? Or in general are there some unknown tricks? Thanks and good buy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as I can tell, the best way to think of the WiFi functionality is "extended bluetooth". It doesn't seem to have any independent WiFI or network functionality. It still has to be talking to the phone, which does have to have some type of connectivity, but the phone doesn't have to be on the same network or on WiFI at all. I turned off both WiFi and BT on the phone, and it could still talk to the watch (through the cell data connection). That added flexibility probably only has a few practical uses, but I absolutely love being able to have the watch and walk more than 20 ft. away while still being connected.

L_E_O said:
As far as I can tell, the best way to think of the WiFi functionality is "extended bluetooth". It doesn't seem to have any independent WiFI or network functionality. It still has to be talking to the phone, which does have to have some type of connectivity, but the phone doesn't have to be on the same network or on WiFI at all. I turned off both WiFi and BT on the phone, and it could still talk to the watch (through the cell data connection). That added flexibility probably only has a few practical uses, but I absolutely love being able to have the watch and walk more than 20 ft. away while still being connected.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you very much

Ok I have had it for day and my initial impression of the Urbane is positive completely opposite of the OP, granted the initial set-up can take up-to 20-30 minute, I've also had the system updated to 5.1.1 .
It is fairly responsive far better than moto 360, not much lags and also the battery life is much better you could easily go through 12 hours of heavy usage or 15 hours for moderate usage. It may have the same innards as the G Watch R but I think LG have done a good job making it look more watch like and something that at first glance looks like a normal watch.
My negatives would be that as I have small wrist it is slightly too big and the strap could have been of better quality. I will go far as to say this is currently the best android smartwatch until moto 360 mk II, Huawei watch etc....
Bottom for line for the money I think it is worth it, cant complain.

How is the vibration on the notifications?
I tried a Moto 360 and I could barely tell when it vibrated.

Any chance of a system and boot dump guys?

pbelcomp said:
How is the vibration on the notifications?
I tried a Moto 360 and I could barely tell when it vibrated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Vibrations good. I will side with Apple as far as being able to customize vibration intensity.

After mine was completely done with its startup I rebooted it and performance has been fine.
Hated the stock strap but I knew I would going in as I greatly dislike cheap leather straps and I had a nice SS bracelet here ready to be installed when the watch arrived. Tested the stock strap for about 15 seconds and went to the jeweler and had them put on the bracelet instead, better in every way. Honestly 22mm is a very common size and there are straps for every owner of all kinds, don't stick with the stock strap for one minute if you don't like it. You can do much better.
Someone paying attention will realize this is not a normal watch but for the most part I think you will have few people notice the watch, it manages to blend pretty well.
If you don't notice the vibration on this one then it isn't a problem, your corpse will not respond to the notification anyways.

tolust said:
Does anyone know if there is a difference between the Korean version that everyone is getting off ebay Vs. The US version say from Google, Verizon, att&t?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wonder that either...? If they are all the same I can consider buying from a South Korean seller in Ebay.

were can i purchase it what is this watch is it phone or bluetooth or what it is LG brand.

AnnaCook310 said:
were can i purchase it what is this watch is it phone or bluetooth or what it is LG brand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Couldn't understand clearly what you are asking but;
This is a smartwatch for phones running android platform.
It is not a phone. It connects to your phone through bluetooth.
This smartwatch's brand is LG.
You can purchase it from South Korea, USA, UK and some other places as well as from internet, for example from Ebay.

krabman said:
After mine was completely done with its startup I rebooted it and performance has been fine.
Hated the stock strap but I knew I would going in as I greatly dislike cheap leather straps and I had a nice SS bracelet here ready to be installed when the watch arrived. Tested the stock strap for about 15 seconds and went to the jeweler and had them put on the bracelet instead, better in every way. Honestly 22mm is a very common size and there are straps for every owner of all kinds, don't stick with the stock strap for one minute if you don't like it. You can do much better.
Someone paying attention will realize this is not a normal watch but for the most part I think you will have few people notice the watch, it manages to blend pretty well.
If you don't notice the vibration on this one then it isn't a problem, your corpse will not respond to the notification anyways.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have my watch yet, but are you saying the vibration is much stronger than the Moto 360? If so, just that is enough to convince me to buy it! P.S. I have always preferred metal bands too.

I have not tried the 360 so I cant comment on its comparative vibration strength. I can say the vibrate on this one is more than strong enough to get my attention when I'm busy. Alarm vibes will continue until you cancel them at least in the near term, I haven't tried leaving it go and seeing if it stops vibrating after so many minutes. The only time I can see myself actually missing an alarm is if I was quite active but theimplication there is I would probably prefer to attend to the activity I was involved in rather than a notification on my watch.
I'm sorry I cant help more, if this is a very strong point you might consider waiting for the phone to be available for fondling in a retail outlet before purchasing.

I'm coming from a Galaxy Gear S and I have 2 small issues. 1st battery life I'm already down to 27% after 7 hrs of use (gear s after 14hr day would still have 70% left) hopefully this will improve after a few days of use. 2nd I wish the display was larger like the 360. Everything looks a little squished to me.

millerd79 said:
I'm coming from a Galaxy Gear S and I have 2 small issues. 1st battery life I'm already down to 27% after 7 hrs of use (gear s after 14hr day would still have 70% left) hopefully this will improve after a few days of use. 2nd I wish the display was larger like the 360. Everything looks a little squished to me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... I'm on day 3 or 4 after a full reset post-update, and I'm only getting about 8-10 hours myself. That's with brightness set at 2 and "Always On" screen turned off. Not sure what the culprit is, but I'm going to try one more full reset and resync.

Anyone considering the V30?

I'm curious if anyone is considering moving to the V30? The better screen and newer processor does intrigue me.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Absolutely! Dumping the g6 as soon as I can. I just hope that they fix the issues that the g6 has before releasing it.

brandonpa said:
Absolutely! Dumping the g6 as soon as I can. I just hope that they fix the issues that the g6 has before releasing it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What issues are you having?
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

1. Well the first major issue is that I can't get this phone to connect to a 5ghz network, I know others can but for some reason my phone cannot (see screenshot). it finds them, but "disabled" them when I try to connected (yes I am using the right password to connect). The 2.4 connects, but I get random drops in connection all of the time at differing intervals.
2. I get dropped calls all of the time, even when I am in an area with full service and sometimes when I am on a call I can hear the other people fine, but they can't hear me at all. I had to disable VoLTE because the calls 'sounded' good but everything was digitized and half of the time everything was scrambled and unable to understand them.
3. Camera - I am still not quite sure why many are comparing this camera to the Galaxy S8 or Iphone. The pictures that I take with this phone are abysmal. The night photos are grainy and the day photos look great on this screen, but as soon as I look at them with a larger screen they are unfocused and unclear. I get it, I can switch to manual mode and mess around with the settings to make the pictures "phenomenal" as I have been told, but that takes time, and by the time that I have the right settings for a good picture, my wife's S8 could have taken 10 pictures that look so much better than this camera can take. (yes I have wiped the lens off, it is clean and I am using the LG camera program).
4. Battery: I had this phone since may, and I am lucky to get 12 hours on a charge (from 100% to 20%) with light duty usage. I know that is subjective and is affected by what programs that you use and how much you use the phone throughout the day, but on the Galaxy S6 Plus that I had, after a year I was still getting 18-24 hours on similar usage with the battery.
I know that I keep referring back to Samsung Phones for my examples, but that is the comparison that I have to this phone. I have used Sammy phones for the past 4 years and, personally, I wanted to switch to LG to get off of the Sammy phones because I am not a Samsung fanboy. They have their issues and those issues were big enough to cause me to switch to LG for this phone.
I have taken the phone back to the store and, of course, everything 'magically' works when I am there, so they won't touch it or replace it. Thus, I am dropping this phone as soon as I humanly can.
Thanks and I hope that you don't have the same issues that I have, as it seems people either love or hate this phone and unfortunately I hate it.
Brandon

brandonpa said:
1. Well the first major issue is that I can't get this phone to connect to a 5ghz network, I know others can but for some reason my phone cannot (see screenshot). it finds them, but "disabled" them when I try to connected (yes I am using the right password to connect). The 2.4 connects, but I get random drops in connection all of the time at differing intervals.
2. I get dropped calls all of the time, even when I am in an area with full service and sometimes when I am on a call I can hear the other people fine, but they can't hear me at all. I had to disable VoLTE because the calls 'sounded' good but everything was digitized and half of the time everything was scrambled and unable to understand them.
3. Camera - I am still not quite sure why many are comparing this camera to the Galaxy S8 or Iphone. The pictures that I take with this phone are abysmal. The night photos are grainy and the day photos look great on this screen, but as soon as I look at them with a larger screen they are unfocused and unclear. I get it, I can switch to manual mode and mess around with the settings to make the pictures "phenomenal" as I have been told, but that takes time, and by the time that I have the right settings for a good picture, my wife's S8 could have taken 10 pictures that look so much better than this camera can take. (yes I have wiped the lens off, it is clean and I am using the LG camera program).
4. Battery: I had this phone since may, and I am lucky to get 12 hours on a charge (from 100% to 20%) with light duty usage. I know that is subjective and is affected by what programs that you use and how much you use the phone throughout the day, but on the Galaxy S6 Plus that I had, after a year I was still getting 18-24 hours on similar usage with the battery.
I know that I keep referring back to Samsung Phones for my examples, but that is the comparison that I have to this phone. I have used Sammy phones for the past 4 years and, personally, I wanted to switch to LG to get off of the Sammy phones because I am not a Samsung fanboy. They have their issues and those issues were big enough to cause me to switch to LG for this phone.
I have taken the phone back to the store and, of course, everything 'magically' works when I am there, so they won't touch it or replace it. Thus, I am dropping this phone as soon as I humanly can.
Thanks and I hope that you don't have the same issues that I have, as it seems people either love or hate this phone and unfortunately I hate it.
Brandon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, that's crazy. I don't have any issues like that with mine.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

I've had mine replaced twice for dropping calls, so bad that the radio icons would literally disappear and reappear, dropping the call or WiFi.
Sent from my LG-H872 using XDA-Developers Legacy app

I was thinking about ordering a G6 today, but after reading about the V30 think that it may be the way to go. A lot of what made me reconsider was in this forum, and how much the G6 is restricted by TMo. I have a rooted LG G4 which has been fine after being fixed for the bootloop problem. I've just been bitter about having to put lineage on it.

Yes! I'm planning on returning one of my G6's via JUMP! and upgrading to a v30. Probably within the next month. I'm waiting for a good promotion and a few paychecks. But definitely getting one to use side by side with my paid off G6 & LineageOS G4.
Sent from my LG-H872 using XDA Labs

I'm just curious (new to LG - except for my Nexus 5)...
What makes you assume the V30 would be better than the G6?

AsItLies said:
I'm just curious (new to LG - except for my Nexus 5)...
What makes you assume the V30 would be better than the G6?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second this question. It'll probably be even more locked down than the G6, if thats possible.

I also ask the same question (despite wanting to dump the g6), to me it is the assumption that the fixed the problems that plagued the G6. Or it is just because i don't like the g6 enough that I hope that phone is better in 'any' way at this point.

I find that my G6 tends to lag a lot. I'm afraid the V30 will also since it has the same 4GB of memory.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

ledvedder said:
I find that my G6 tends to lag a lot. I'm afraid the V30 will also since it has the same 4GB of memory.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I saw that as well. I also saw some reviews that despite the phone being very well made, the screen is junk? Anyone see or hear the same issue?

Not a chance in hell.
Worst phone experience I've had in years.
Camera glass cracked from what I can only conclude is expansion and not enough tolerance in the design to have a water resistant phone. I'm not alone in this issue by any means, LG refused to acknowledge it, instead screwing customers over for overpriced repairs. I appreciate that some users are rough with their devices and likely caused the damage but I baby my phones and this was not user caused in my case and no doubt many others.
Removing the ability to access root is a deal breaker for me. It's not that the phone isn't nice to use, and I don't need a bunch of niche apps.
It's quite simply that being locked down is IMO a deliberate move between TMobile and LG to limit any version upgrades that lengthen the life of a device and cannibalizes their 'jump' programs and phone purchases in general. This is evidenced by the fact that it's still on the very base 7.0 version of Android Nougat (no interest in giving customers the important Google incremental updates).
Oreo having been out for months, I doubt this phone will see it.
I tend to keep phone's longer than a year, my previous Nexus 5 was nearly 4 years old when I got the G6, and had I kept it, would be running Oreo right now instead of Nougat!
Fool me once shame on you..... Fool me twice shame on me. Not gonna happen.
Buying a pixel outright and chopping phone insurance and the jump plan costs from my bill.
YMMV - but you did ask for user opinions! That means the good and the bad.

I wanted the V30, and was waiting to get one but needed to add a line in late august for one of my kids so I got a pair of G6's for $500 on a bogo. Honestly, this might be the best phone I've had to date. I get great battery life, the camera is great, and the performance is great. I disable everything I can that I don't use and its been fine. Plenty of storage for me.
So with all that said, I just don't see there being enough of an upgrade in the V30. The quad dac will not do much for me because I stream my music from spotify. While the camera may be an upgrade, I'm not sure its $550 better after I use my jump. Screen is a little bigger and I think the minor gains in battery life will be negligible. Plus, the screen issues I'm hearing about on both the V30 and Pixel XL 2 have me thinking I'm just fine staying on the G6 with its LCD screen for a few more months.
Bottom line, I don't think its a huge upgrade for me especially when I factor in the cost. I'll be Jump eligible by next spring, May use it on the G7 or wait for the V40.

I was excited for the V30, but I read the LED screen is not great. Some say its good, others says it's terrible. Everyone agrees it's not as good as Samsung's LED screens. I own several Samsung LED devices, so I'll probably notice the difference. Maybe the later batches of the V30 (2018 build dates) will be better. The later batches of the G5 and G6 fixed some of the imperfections of the first batches.