Database Develop

Should Samsung allow return and refund if GPS isn't fixed?

What do you think? If Samsung is unable to repair the GPS via a future software update, would you just accept it, or would demand your money back?

I would demand my money back.
It's near useless for me as it is now.

Now I'm carrying two devices. My 3GS to continue using my TomTom, do my email, read my news. But I use the SGS for Internet on the go (at home I use my iPad). Hate carrying two devices having to make one a hotspot.

Here's a thought. Go ask your retailer. You are entitled to your money back if you aren't happy with the GPS. Have you even tried yet?
Sent from my wonderful GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

bushrat; said:
Here's a thought. Go ask your retailer. You are entitled to your money back if you aren't happy with the GPS. Have you even tried yet?
Sent from my wonderful GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
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Yes, I've tried. They want me to pay penalty for breaking the contract, and they would not accept the phone back. They would only replace it within 14 days with another new phone. After 14 days, they will only repair the phone, but not give me a new replacement. The Telco shop only acts as the middleman, and responsibility lies with Samsung to them.
Had I taken the $59 per month plan, then I could return it, no question asked within 7 days, and I only have to pay for any calls and data use. But I'm on the $49 per month plan because I wanted to commit myself to using Android by burning my own bridge. It's a mistake on hindsight. I didn't expect it to be so bad.
I feel that Samsung should work with the Telco to do exactly what Apple and ATT did, which is to allow people to back out of the contract without penalty, and have the phone returned. After all, this is a far far more seriously problem than in iPhone 4 in my mind at least.

The responsibility (under Australian law) is with the retailer, although they consult with a specialist (ie the manufacturer) to determine if there's a fault.
If the phone is faulty, and does not perform the task for which it was purchased you are entitled to a full refund of the purchase price.
www . accc . gov . au

Have faith that It will be fixed, since the phone is still in very early days.
I'm putting my trust in Samsung! Hopefully we won't get burned.

yea if you send it to the manufacturer they will 'try' to fix it, and its its hardware they obv cant anyway, then you just complain again once u get it back and im assuming they would have to give you your money back.
id just be patient and wait a few more weeks for samsung to release their firmware, or just use the JM2 which fixes it i think

Eaglesteve, surely you have consumer protection laws in Aus? The device is clearly not fit for purpose, therefore breaking the terms of your contract In the UK all major retailers will try to sell additional cover or insurance; although the consumer protection act makes them legally obligated to repair or replace electrical goods for up to 5 years after the date of purchase. My point; retailers rely heavily on consumer ignorance You didn't purchase the device directly from samsung, the store can't absolve responsibility by claiming to be a "middle man".. plus most sales assistants know jack **** about the legalities of your agreement.
Write a formal complaint to the retailers head office, send the letter via recorded delivery and state that you've been advised to provide a response period of 14 days before taking your complaint further. You don't want to look for a replacement, make it clear that it's a manufacturing fault and not specific to your device. There should be an AUS ombudsman that deals with consumer complaints (bit.ly/8Xl55G), find the correct governing body and lodge a formal complaint, they should provide a reference for your case; include it in the letter to the retailer. In the UK you would then be able to take your complaint to the small claims court, however most companies will **** bricks and fold before it reaches this stage. The bottom line is the device was sold to you for its GPS capabilities, the information provided by the retailer mislead you to into the agreement; you've signed up under false pretences, reason enough for the contract to be declared void

sensi_ said:
yea if you send it to the manufacturer they will 'try' to fix it, and its its hardware they obv cant anyway, then you just complain again once u get it back and im assuming they would have to give you your money back.
id just be patient and wait a few more weeks for samsung to release their firmware, or just use the JM2 which fixes it i think
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Im gonna flash to JM2 today, but Im getting a bit weary of the faith in Samsung.
Firstly, I'd point out that Samsung announced the phone in March. Three months perfecting the phone, and they still couldn't get the GPS sorted.
Another month later and with many firmware releases during that time, and still it doesn't look like its fixed. (though I haven't tried JM2 yet - in any event, the rumour is that it still doesn't fix onto more than 8 satellites despite seeing more, and it still doesn't lock onto anything with an SnR < 20)
Cya
Simon

yup, as far as samsung is concerned the device is already sold, they sell it on big bulks to retailers
it's the retailer duty to either give you the refund or not.
samsung will only accept RMA, or Warranty services

eaglesteve said:
I feel that Samsung should work with the Telco to do exactly what Apple and ATT did, which is to allow people to back out of the contract without penalty, and have the phone returned. After all, this is a far far more seriously problem than in iPhone 4 in my mind at least.
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IIRC (it's been a while since I bought the original iPhone), this isn't something new due to antenna gate and it's just Apple's spin machine doing what they do well. Contracts in the US telecom industry, not just on AT&T, are written in a way that this review period exists.
The only difference here is that there is a slight difference in restocking fees, where they wont be applied like they have at times in the past. This isn't really "Apple working with AT&T" as much as touting a possibility that typically exists, there are certain exceptions by carrier but one reason why AT&T isn't combating this is the same reason they were hesitant to accept Android phones, and they ultimately gimp Android phones, Apple is just $$$$ to them. Once again AT&T beat their quarterly record for profitability and they are the most profitable carrier in the US even though they are #2 in customers. Needless to say, they are at the whims of Apple, but this isn't a big compromise on either's behalf.

Amazing. So far, 1/3 of people are happy to accept faulty goods.

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/07/18/samsung-captivate-now-available-from-att/
Some people here have returned it to AT&T, while I don't know it has been penalty free, I think you need to not put the onus on Samsung and need to have a better comparison in-mind.

sensi_ said:
yea if you send it to the manufacturer they will 'try' to fix it, and its its hardware they obv cant anyway, then you just complain again once u get it back and im assuming they would have to give you your money back.
id just be patient and wait a few more weeks for samsung to release their firmware, or just use the JM2 which fixes it i think
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I'm waiting for my replacement now. If the GPS still doesn't work, I might do that. As for JM2, I don't believe it do anything based on whatever limited reading I did on some of those threads.

sjdean said:
Amazing. So far, 1/3 of people are happy to accept faulty goods.
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I guess there's two main to three main things that could be at play here:
1) GPS isn't important to these people, therefore they are voting on their bias rather than from an objective viewpoint
2) GPS isn't a core functionality, therefore it's hard to say it justifies a return or that it is "faulty" as you put it
3) GPS is imprecise by nature, so users who have a strong need for it should be more informed about their purchase and the onus is on them to do their hw or lay in the bed they've made.
I am abstaining because I find the premise somewhat flawed, first of all. I think retailers and/or carriers are responsible, just like in other industries/product lines. If I buy a wireless router that doesn't perform well in, let's say it's wired performance I don't go direct to the manufacturer there. If I buy a camera that advertises 12MP but seems to produce ****ty results, I again, go to my retailer. In here, I also have a slight bias, originally being in the U.S. where we typically buy are phones through a carrier who give us a bit of extra protection because of the way contracts are set up they don't want to lose a customer totally (also part of the premise of the argument is based on a carrier logic that I don't think is applicable in this thread, but that might just be my opinion and I'm alone there).
So, I think the premise is flawed, and perhaps my logic is flawed, but I don't want to just vote "no" just because if either is flawed. However, I don't disagree with the "no" camp.

Lots of good advice from many of you. I'll have to talk to them if mynnext unit does not work. I hope it will work, since half the people polled claim that theirs are perfect.
If it does not work, I'll reason with Optus to get bout of the contract. I wonder how much of the $49 is for the phone and how much is for the data and calls. Should I simply withhold my payment, return the ozone, and pay them for actual calls and data used?

sjdean said:
Amazing. So far, 1/3 of people are happy to accept faulty goods.
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Yeah that's just the Samsung reps voting.

eaglesteve said:
Lots of good advice from many of you. I'll have to talk to them if mynnext unit does not work. I hope it will work, since half the people polled claim that theirs are perfect.
If it does not work, I'll reason with Optus to get bout of the contract. I wonder how much of the $49 is for the phone and how much is for the data and calls. Should I simply withhold my payment, return the ozone, and pay them for actual calls and data used?
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Depends on how much you paid for the phone. 24 month contract? Tmo is selling their, slightly gimped model for $500 USD, I think that's on the high end of what they might get from international suppliers, depending on how big they are even though the international version is more costly.
So, ~500USD/24~20USD/month, maybe less, if fully subsidized. Forgive me for cutting corners and not looking into your location specifically, but I figure it's better than looking for the absolute cheapest UK/Euro/Thailand location.

There is no upfront cost for the phone. Just 24 months x $49. I had offered to continue with the plan but with an alternative phone and topping up the difference in monthly fee) but they refused that.

nookie froyo sd card $70 on ebay

people are selling overpriced autonooter and nookie froyo sd cards on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOOK-Color-Barn...ltDomain_0&hash=item3cb461d149#ht_2471wt_1139
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nook-Color-Froy...ltDomain_0&hash=item3cb4ab56db#ht_1040wt_1139

Overpriced? What would be the appropriate price?

RoboRay said:
Overpriced? What would be the appropriate price?
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Actually assuming it's not the author of the software selling it, no price is appropriate. It's blatant copyright infringement and should be pulled from ebay.
edit:
Of course in the real world things are never totally clear cut. If I was representing the eBay seller I'd argue some sort of implied copyright license. OTOH I think it's a relatively weak case as the implied license is most likely for users of this board. I'd really strongly suggest that authors here put a notice in their code/posts stating what they want to allow (i.e. personal use only/do not distribute, etc.)
Disclaimer: I am a lawyer. I am not YOUR lawyer. This is not legal advice and just discussion.

It is sad, it truly is, but if people can't be bothered to read a little bit, and they have the money, let them buy whatever they want. (I have a feeling that had way too many commas but whatevs lol)
I would much rather them go that safe route than have their device bricked I guess :/
Even though its hard to brick your device from an SD card (and by that I mean impossible)

yerand said:
people are selling overpriced autonooter and nookie froyo sd cards on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOOK-Color-Barn...ltDomain_0&hash=item3cb461d149#ht_2471wt_1139
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this guy should be spammed. it ruins the point of open source. sure, your paying for a sevice but....what happens after they get the nook and OTA's happen. What happens when something goes wrong or they want to update. How about mentioning that it voids the warranty. Unsuspecting people will have no idea what to do when a problem arises.
imagine giving a rooted nook color to your mother and telling her she is on her own from here out. its just wrong.

not to mention the $18 dollar shipping charge...that's crazy
techboydino said:
yerand said:
people are selling overpriced autonooter and nookie froyo sd cards on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOOK-Color-Barn...ltDomain_0&hash=item3cb461d149#ht_2471wt_1139
this guy should be spammed. it ruins the point of open source. sure, your paying for a sevice but....what happens after they get the nook and OTA's happen. What happens when something goes wrong or they want to update. How about mentioning that it voids the warranty. Unsuspecting people will have no idea what to do when a problem arises.
imagine giving a rooted nook color to your mother and telling her she is on her own from here out. its just wrong.
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I wrote to the sellers and reported them as well. That being said, if they can confirm that they are the true creators of these "services" I would certainly feel a bit like an ass. However, that being said, I don't think they were.
The whole point of open source and free creating is just that, open and free.
If someone does not have the wits to perform the quite simple tasks of rooting a device, they should stick with leaving it in stock form.

nootered said:
If someone does not have the wits to perform the quite simple tasks of rooting a device, they should stick with leaving it in stock form.
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If someone "does not have the wits" to perform the quite simple tasks of installing a car stereo, they should leave it stock? Or is it OK for them to pay somebody to upgrade it for them?
How about the simple tasks of putting an addition on their house, or preparing all the food for their wedding reception? When exactly is it acceptable to pay someone to do something you don't know or care or simply don't have time to learn how to do?

RoboRay said:
If someone does not have the wits to perform the quite simple tasks of installing a car stereo, they should leave it stock? Or is it OK for them to pay somebody to upgrade it for them?
How about the simple tasks of putting an addition on their house, or preparing all the food for their wedding reception? When exactly is it acceptable to pay someone to do something you don't know or care to learn how to do?
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Two totally different beasts. You could apply your "logic" to just about everything in life.
They will not have the technical know-how of keeping up with the released updates, or know how to fix anything if something goes wrong.
Not to mention the fact that they are offering, at a ridiculous price no less, to simply apply software, that they likely didn't even create, to someone's hardware.
You don't find anything wrong with this at all?

nootered said:
Two totally different beasts. You could apply your "logic" to just about everything in life.
They will not have the technical know-how of keeping up with the released updates, or know how to fix anything if something goes wrong.
Not to mention the fact that they are offering, at a ridiculous price no less, to simply apply software, that they likely didn't even create, to someone's hardware.
You don't find anything wrong with this at all?
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It's certainly distasteful, but I think you'll have a hard time proving they're doing anything improper.
Who are we to decide what price somebody should put on what they are selling? In case you are unfamiliar with market economics, the seller is free to set any price he chooses, just as the buyers are free to decide if they are willing or not to pay it. Nobody is forced to buy if they feel the price is to high.
It's not substantially different from the cases I mentioned, either. In all of them, circumstances can and will arise where the customer will be unable to cope without further support. It's the customer's responsibility to ensure that support will be available. If it won't be, they are pretty foolish if they don't either shop elsewhere or learn to manage on their own.
And yes, we can and do apply this logic to everything in life.

What i meant by overpriced was that if he were to sell them for twenty or even thirty dollars (depending on the capacity of the card). He would be doing a service, providing people with no tech know-how an easy way to root. But at those prices, they are just taking advantage of people.
Sent from my LogicPD Zoom2 using XDA App

yerand said:
What i meant by overpriced was that if he were to sell them for twenty or even thirty dollars (depending on the capacity of the card). He would be doing a service, providing people with no tech know-how an easy way to root. But at those prices, they are just taking advantage of people.
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Agreed there, but if people choose not to educate themselves, we can't do it for them. And I guarantee that there are people who feel that spending $70 to turn their $250 ereader into a $500 tablet is money well spent. /shrug

RoboRay said:
If someone "does not have the wits" to perform the quite simple tasks of installing a car stereo, they should leave it stock? Or is it OK for them to pay somebody to upgrade it for them?
How about the simple tasks of putting an addition on their house, or preparing all the food for their wedding reception? When exactly is it acceptable to pay someone to do something you don't know or care or simply don't have time to learn how to do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All of the services that you mentioned would come standard with a warranty of some sort to insure that if anything goes wrong, the contractor, the caterer, or the mechanic would fix it for free, or for a small service fee.
There are no such guarantees here. For instance, the new 1.1.0 update that was pushed out this past week...what kind of insurance are they going to give the consumer that if the update breaks the root, that they won't have to pay another large fee just to have it fixed? Or that it can even BE fixed? (Which at the moment, it can't)
It's not illegal, but it's shady and unethical as hell, and they should be reported. Or the consumer should at least be aware of the consequences.

I agree with everything everyone has said in a very legally binding manner. Its prey vs hunter at this point. Who has the sharpest claws?
sent from my nootered nook color

What the sellers are doing is a little wrong but you can find people offering to root phones all over craigslist for $50+, what's the difference? I don't agree with the argument that they should provide some warranty for future updates. The service they're offering will do exactly as their listing says and doesn't promise to work in the event that a future update breaks root.
If someone pays what they're asking, and I agree it's a ridiculous price, then that's what it's worth to them. IMO, people pay too much for many things but they see value in it (i.e. famous art), whereas I don't. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy art but I would never pay $108 million, if I had billions, for a Jackson Pollock. I say, to each his own.

I think it's a matter up to the consumer. Any informed consumer would do research before making the investment, and probably determine that it's too hard / too much work for them to do themselves. If they don't take this into account, that's not the seller's fault. Just my $0.02.
Regardless, a search of eBay shows that it's catching on with more than just one person:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_tr...kw=nook+color+froyo&_sacat=See-All-Categories

I received a message back from the one sellers, and he/she was very offended and said that I have no right to say anything, and so what if it is unethical or distasteful.
He/she claims to have taken part in the help of rooting the Nook, so it is no doubt that they are quite active on these or other forums. And I am sure they are reading this, and will be able to associate my name here with the person that has messaged them. Hi.
People like you make me sick, you are no different than the creditors that call 95 year old ladies up to take every last penny they have so that you can buy the boat at the end of the year.
If you did in fact have anything to do with the rooting process, and the many hours that have been spent to root these devices, you should be ashamed of yourself.

TchnclFl said:
I think it's a matter up to the consumer. Any informed consumer would do research before making the investment, and probably determine that it's too hard / too much work for them to do themselves. If they don't take this into account, that's not the seller's fault. Just my $0.02.
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Yes, it is the sellers fault. That is like saying that the tobacco companies are in no way responsible for the millions of deaths every year from THEIR product. Now, I know this is a stretch, and an exaggeration, but it is on purpose to show my point.
It's wrong, plain and simple. Of course, that's just my 2 cents.

nootered said:
Yes, it is the sellers fault. That is like saying that the tobacco companies are in no way responsible for the millions of deaths every year from THEIR product. Now, I know this is a stretch, and an exaggeration, but it is on purpose to show my point.
It's wrong, plain and simple. Of course, that's just my 2 cents.
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I disagree. You can't get addicted to buying overpriced things. There comes a point when you are physically incapable (or at least nearly so) of stopping smoking, and you NEED to go back to the companies. They made their warnings clear, but that didn't matter. If you buy an overpriced uSD card, you're not going to be physically required to buy more.
EDIT: I might add that depending on which cards you're talking about, they're more or less a scam. When I was saying it's not unreasonable, I referring to the ones in the lower range like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280623461313
I mean a good retail 4 GB uSD card can cost close to that.

For the passionate
Seems like there are some that are quite passionate in seeing that this guy only gets what he has worked for.
So I suggest that they cut his market out. Sell an item that just covers listing costs and your time that shows people how to root and links them to XDA and shows them how "fish for themselves". You might end up stealing enough of his market share that he quits.
Just and idea...

An open note to Barnes and Noble

To Whom It May Concern,
As an Android enthusiast and owner of a Nook Color, I'd like to let you know that your entirely open and permissive attitude towards the modding community has made me VERY inclined to purchase content from you whenever possible. I've already bought three e-books from you and plan to buy more from you and ONLY you whenever I feel like purchasing content. This approach IS making you money. I promise.
Sincerely,
a now-devoted B&N customer

Somehow I do not think they intended the Nook to be as open as it is.

painter_ said:
Somehow I do not think they intended the Nook to be as open as it is.
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Maybe, but they haven't done anything to change it in any of their updates, either.

Let's hope that attitude remains the same when the official 2.2 update comes out. I'm with you though, I love this thing! Outside of Netflix, there's nothing the iPad has that I want and I cannot wait for Google to release their 3+ AOSP so we can make these Nooks even better!

You'd be surprised at what B&N suspected. I mean why else pack this much punch into an ereader with the Android OS backing it? They knew what they were doing. If they didn't, then I feel sorry for them...Im happy it got past them, but c'mon, the Android community has blown up since late 2009, Rooting became 100% legal (even if it voids the warrenty) and they even made it easy by allowing the SD card to boot first! They either planned it or it was horribly designed.

It's just guesswork, but I think B&N made it just difficult enough that casual users wouldn't be likely to screw up their NC but easy enough that the android community would be able to- and generate a huge amount of buzz about the Nook Color.
If it was JUST an e-reader as intended, half the articles you see online would not exist; maybe even fewer.
Pretty good advertising if you ask me...

rogerdugans said:
It's just guesswork, but I think B&N made it just difficult enough that casual users wouldn't be likely to screw up their NC but easy enough that the android community would be able to- and generate a huge amount of buzz about the Nook Color.
If it was JUST an e-reader as intended, half the articles you see online would not exist; maybe even fewer.
Pretty good advertising if you ask me...
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There's no such thing as bad press.
The flip side to having little to no device security is easy maintenance. I'd be surprised if BN stores didn't have a full reinstall/recover microsd image. It would be so easy to do.

rogerdugans said:
It's just guesswork, but I think B&N made it just difficult enough that casual users wouldn't be likely to screw up their NC but easy enough that the android community would be able to- and generate a huge amount of buzz about the Nook Color.
If it was JUST an e-reader as intended, half the articles you see online would not exist; maybe even fewer.
Pretty good advertising if you ask me...
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I also think that at LEAST 1/3rd (if not way, way more than that) of the people who bought it did so to make it into a tablet (or the very least to root it)

I am buying books on it. I am recommending friends buy it, and let them know they only get help if they bought it from Barnes and Noble.
I want B&N to get all the revenue from this device, and won't touch a Best Buy unit.
And yes, I bought it once I knew it was rootable and a great platform to learn Android hardware with.

Even as an Amazon Prime member/Kindle owner, I have been purchasing ebooks from B &N to show support for this device. I had planned on buying a Xoom this summer, but this device has exceeded my expectations.
They really need to up their advertising on this device.

roustabout said:
I am buying books on it. I am recommending friends buy it, and let them know they only get help if they bought it from Barnes and Noble.
I want B&N to get all the revenue from this device, and won't touch a Best Buy unit.
And yes, I bought it once I knew it was rootable and a great platform to learn Android hardware with.
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"Ditto" .... +1

JLCollier2005 said:
You'd be surprised at what B&N suspected. I mean why else pack this much punch into an ereader with the Android OS backing it?
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This is one of my biggest questions about the NC. I strongly suspect that development of the device pre-dates Barnes and Noble's interest in it, though I have no way of knowing that for sure.

I bought my Nook and one for my nephew as soon as they rooted it with no intention of using it as an e-reader. I had never been to a B&N and bought all of my books from Amazon or Borders. Since I bought the Nook I ordered all of my school books from B&N and have also bought a few e-books and audio books from them. The Nook provided exposure to B&N that they would not of had in my case.

Just my 2 cents on how open b&n is about rooting the nc. I went into a bn store to get a cover and was presented a book by an employee on how to root and make it a full fledged tablet.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

ruiza997 said:
Just my 2 cents on how open b&n is about rooting the nc. I went into a bn store to get a cover and was presented a book by an employee on how to root and make it a full fledged tablet.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
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The reps are real cool about rooting it and know what they're talking about. Then you get the guy I got the other day who knew nothing about the nook period. They either know all or are dumb as hell.

As an employee of BN, specifically a digital lead, with a rooted nook color running CM7, I do my best to let management know how important it is for me to be able to support the modding community. I root devices in-store, fix rooted devices, and make sure returns and warranty problems go off without a hitch even for modded machines. I never feel as though I am going against the grain and I think we're being very smart about all of this so far.

I guess I'm in the minority here. I bought the Nook because I'm too cheap for the iPad. I'm also too cheap to pay B&N's prices for their books and I am always on the lookout for free ebooks. Paying $7.00 and more on a regular basis for books seems like waste.

starkruzr said:
To Whom It May Concern,
As an Android enthusiast and owner of a Nook Color, I'd like to let you know that your entirely open and permissive attitude towards the modding community has made me VERY inclined to purchase content from you whenever possible. I've already bought three e-books from you and plan to buy more from you and ONLY you whenever I feel like purchasing content. This approach IS making you money. I promise.
Sincerely,
a now-devoted B&N customer
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Dear Barnes & Noble;
I bought the Nook Color in mid-December simply because it could be rooted. Since that time, I have purchased a cover, screen protectors, and extra charger and 58 e-books. The NC is a great product, and your employees that I've dealt with support it enthusiastically, even though it's rooted. This results in a happy, loyal customer base and helps ensure repeat business. Kudos to you.

I will sign the letter too!
I had no great love for Barnes & Noble before this (their pricing took a steep upward spiral many years ago; long ago they were the only good discounter, but that's long gone and I have little use for lattes and biscotti in a bookstore). But now I have a very soft spot for them and we visit the store more frequently to buy things as inexpensive as paper magazines and toys and as expensive as, well, the Nook.
Let's hope they continue with the openness and don't make fools of us by root-blocking attempts with the 2.2 release.
For what it's worth every B&N clerk I've asked about the Nook has "just happened to mention" that it's rootable -- I almost think it's part of their official sales pitch.

Given that B&N set up store displays for the Nook Color that included a book that told you how to root the Nook ... I'd guess they were pretty open to the idea that it would be ... open. Heck, I've had 2 long conversations with employees in B&N stores telling them about how to get more up to date info here on XDA. I can't read the minds of the execs at the top that product managed Nook Color, but everything from the lower levels says they're perfectly happy with it.
Consider me /signed as well

The amazon tablet WANTS a bad name(nook color mentioned)

I was reading a post in the general section of xda, about the best 5 phones, it referenced an article, and I saw an article about the amazon app, and will it succeed..(I must have ADD)
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Will...the-Amazon-tablet-before-its-launched_id20870 Will-developer-anger-at-the-Amazon-Appstore-kill-the-Amazon-tablet-before-its-launched
I wasn't really liking how amazon seems to be doing things, but look at this snippet specifically and tell me what you think..
"My feeling is that the Amazon tablet will be an extension of the Kindle. At heart, it will be an e-reader, but an e-reader with benefits. Amazon has learned from the Nook Color. Consumers want a full screen e-reader with apps and extra features, but Amazon doesn't want to foster the rooting community that has sprung up around the Nook Color. Amazon, like Apple, wants to control the experience, and this means giving consumers what they want, but it also means likely alienating the more tech savvy crowd. However, given that the Amazon tablet will be based on Android 2.x, the tech savvy crowd was already most likely alienated."
Why WOULDN'T they want a community of people spreading the word about how awesome the device is? Look at the kindle.. an overpriced device made of cheap parts, something that could have done more(mind you I own one).. but it was pretty good at the limited things it did.
Why upgrade to something that can REALLY do something?
Anyways, here is my comment/rant I am posting, but I am curious what the community they are talking about thinks. Would you buy their device if they purposely don't want us SPECIFICALLY to be able to enjoy it for what it COULD do?
My comment:
This one phrase does it for me, "Amazon, like Apple, wants to control the experience, and this means giving consumers what they want, but it also means likely alienating the more tech savvy crowd."
I am one of those people that bought a nook color, and has it doing every awesome thing that it has the hardware to do, and doing more than you'd ever think you could have it do.
That said: The problem with apple and anyone who uses them as a model.. they want to control what the device can do, so they can sell you another device in the near future. Sure, you had to jailbreak the iphone, but the original phone that couldn't record video COULD in fact record video. The iphone 3g COULD record video, but the 3gs can record hi-def, the only qualifying selling point(besides harddrive) of the device. Oh wait, a jailbroken 3g can record in the SAME QUALITY. At my old job working at a university I had to jailbreak iPads to do video out because the apple representatives said it couldn't.. they were surprised when I showed them what it can do in the classroom as soon as I got around their limitations. I am quite sure the iPhone 4 and the iPad 2 are capable of many things they DON'T do, but CAN do.. and that they will sell you a new device soon that will.(Lets fill more landfills for no reason) Hell, I had ios4.1 on an original iphone, something they said the iphone 3g couldn't do.(Now I am ranting I think)
Each release of newer device from apple was NOT an improvement in a big way, but a controlled release of a single or few features they wanted you to be able to do. Intentional limitations purely in software. It is one of the BIG reasons why I stopped buying iPhones.. to make it do everything it COULD do, I had to defy what the manufacturer didn't want it to be able to do.
If amazon does this, I don't see this as being a success.. it is the same idea as someone micromanaging. Sure, it CAN be comforting to have someone come in and tell you every little detail of what to do so you don't have to think -- unless you don't have a problem with THINKING.(This is the concept that I think constantly spawns a sheep argument)
Android, simply put, is open source. Even if a manufacturer doesn't want the phones software altered, the NATURE of the software is that it CAN be altered. You can buy an android phone/tablet, and KNOW that if the hardware can do it, and there is a community around the device, the software will allow it. This is how I stream movies, play games(meant for the tegra only devices), have a newer operating system than most android phones, and so much more.. all for 250 dollars. I didn't want a camera on a tablet. I don't want another data plan. Just something a little more comfortable.
Anyways, successful devices are the ones that can accomodate the less tech savvy in ease of use, WITHOUT stepping on the toes of those who know how to make it do more. Why should they? The new samsung galaxy s 2 has no bootloader, a great thing for those of us who want to push the limits of the beautiful hardware rather than have a device that just sounds better.. and a device like that will be embraced by any who want it because no one is trying to keep them away-- and why would they anyways?(Sheep again)
I really don't know how this could be said unless they really think all customers truly are sheep:"Amazon, like Apple, wants to control the experience, and this means giving consumers what they want.." If amazon is trying to become apple part 2, I really am done with them.

My first reaction to your post was confusion. You really buried the lead there
*IF* I read you correctly (and the article), you are asking why Amazon would want to make it impossible (or at least very difficult) for developers and enthusiasts to extend the capabilities of the mythical Amazon Tablet.
The article refers to lessons learned from the Nook Color, but I'm not sure Amazon has learned the same thing from the NC that modding enthusiasts have. We appreciate how fundamentally powerful and inexpensive the NC is. Amazon (as well as Barnes & Noble) see a high end ereader as expanding the reach of their core business... selling books.
I think the fallacy of the article cited is that they think Amazon is trying to emulate Apple. I don't think they are. They are trying to emulate Gillette and Schick. Sell the razor cheap and then make your money on the blades. Or the updated model of printers and ink. Same thing.
It is in Amazon's best interest to limit the scope of activities and applications on their tablet for a couple of reasons. They don't want the Nook app running on their tablet and they don't want to have to support a whole gamut of problems that will come with pushing the hardware to its limit.
They do on the other hand want to give the majority of their customers what they want. The Ipad and the Honeycomb tablets hitting the market are setting the bar higher and higher, so they have to respond with enough features to stay competitive.
For a mass marketer (like Apple, B&N, and Amazon) that means being selective and slow. Being an early adopter can be painful.. both for users and vendors. They are just trying to maximize their profits and this is the best strategy for that.

Honestly, I don't see Amazon really locking it down that much unless they want to cover their rear end on trying to make it hard as can be getting their DRMed ebooks off the device.
BN makes money on each NC sold (AFAIK) so even if somebody (like me) buys one just to have a tablet, they still make money off of it. Whether somebody uses it as is or converts it to a CM7 tablet is really of no consequence to them. If anything, they are more than likely to buy into the BN ecosystem I think. You've already bought a tablet so why not buy their dedicated ereader if you find that reading on the NC is a little worse than you imagined.
I mean, I own both a Nook (1st ed.) and a NC. I appreciate their openness in regards to their products (not only being able to load CM7 but also their openness in respects to formats and everything else with their eink readers) and will continue to support them over Amazon or the like, even though I really like Amazon.

I think Amazon is trying to take a little from both Apple and B&N. B&N has looked the other way while the development community opened up and enhanced the Nook Color because I think they were simply interested getting something out there that would set them apart from the Kindle and sell books. Yes, they have an app store but I do not think that was a priority other than to say they have one. Amazon sells far more than books so they want to make money in the app store as well. On top of that, Apple pretty much kicked them out of the app store unless they paid the toll. Not having a tablet to make up for that sent them rushing to copy B&N. B&N got it right the first time and I don't think they are worried that people are going to root the device and start using the Kindle app. I have both but I have yet to buy a single Kindle book. Since they are both priced about the same, why would I need to? I just bought my wife a NC so now we will share books. And, she may be perfectly happy if I leave it stock.
One final comment: I have not now nor will I ever buy an Apple product primarily because I do not like being controlled and locked out of my own device.

You're ranting about Amazon this, Amazon that, but you're referring to an article which is about Amazon. It's not from Amazon.
So will Amazon try to limit the openness of its tablet? Maybe. Has Amazon said anything to this nature? Dunno, but it's not in this article. This is all third party speculation.

khaytsus said:
You're ranting about Amazon this, Amazon that, but you're referring to an article which is about Amazon. It's not from Amazon.
So will Amazon try to limit the openness of its tablet? Maybe. Has Amazon said anything to this nature? Dunno, but it's not in this article. This is all third party speculation.
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Actually, I was ranting about Apple.

khaytsus said:
You're ranting about Amazon this, Amazon that, but you're referring to an article which is about Amazon. It's not from Amazon.
So will Amazon try to limit the openness of its tablet? Maybe. Has Amazon said anything to this nature? Dunno, but it's not in this article. This is all third party speculation.
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Well, the article is about the Amazon appstore problems and only incidentally about the tablet. Any discussion of the tablet has to be speculation until the product actually is released.
The appstore seems to be actively hostile to developers and just there to get people onto the other Amazon pages.
There is speculation that it's there to support the tablet in a closed ecosystem, but I think it's just a side benefit (to Amazon).

I guess the real question isn't is this sensible business practice so much as would you support companies that literally go out of their way to make the things that we do like we have with our nook colors.. Some of that article isn't speculation, they have refused googles market application, and there are plenty of things that can be surmised from that that isn't speculation.
Companies used to be happy selling widgets, but now it has become popular for companies to sell widgets that COULD do more, but they limit what it can do so they can sell more widgets. It hurts progress of all kinds because it is the intentional slowing down of progress, just to profit more. If they want to sell you a new product, they should make a product that is ACTUALLY better than the previous ones.

Silentbtdeadly said:
If they want to sell you a new product, they should make a product that is ACTUALLY better than the previous ones.
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The product Amazon would be selling with the tablet wouldn't be the tablet itself.
Why would Amazon want to make a generic do all tablet? How does that fit into their business model? How would they compete with the well established "generic" tablet makers?
Amazon is a web store, they want to get people into their store. Otherwise, Amazon would have no reason or no business making a tablet in the first place.
Barns and Noble didn't make the Nook because they wanted to make an Android tablet or because they wanted to make an e-reader, they made the Nook so people would buy books from them.

joenathane said:
The product Amazon would be selling with the tablet wouldn't be the tablet itself.
Why would Amazon want to make a generic do all tablet? How does that fit into their business model? How would they compete with the well established "generic" tablet makers?
Amazon is a web store, they want to get people into their store. Otherwise, Amazon would have no reason or no business making a tablet in the first place.
Barns and Noble didn't make the Nook because they wanted to make an Android tablet or because they wanted to make an e-reader, they made the Nook so people would buy books from them.
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Yea well, then they shouldn't have their webstore on those generic tablets, because why would someone buy their less-than-tablet if other tablets that probably don't cost much more can do it just as well, or better because there are so many apps those OTHER tablets can do.
I guess the way you put it, they should get out of the electronics business all together if they can't compete with what other devices do. Their best bet would be to put out a device that people want because it is BETTER than other devices, but make sure their software is on every device.. I mean I doubt it will come out at a semi-affordable price like the nook.
Any way I look at it, and everything I heard, I still think it is bad and sad ways of trying to make money.. because they are doing the minimum they can in every scenario to deserve money.

What companies like B&N and Amazon are trying to do is completely different than what companies like Motorola and Samsung are trying to do. They have completely different aims in their product goals. One side is trying to lock you in to their market and the other is trying to make a general purpose functional device.
Although I do have a feeling that I am wasting my time here...

joenathane said:
What companies like B&N and Amazon are trying to do is completely different than what companies like Motorola and Samsung are trying to do. They have completely different aims in their product goals. One side is trying to lock you in to their market and the other is trying to make a general purpose functional device.
Although I do have a feeling that I am wasting my time here...
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Unless you can explain what makes them think they can market devices like that AND be able to compete against devices that can do all of that and more.. that device would have to be incredibly cheap for someone to buy it, plain and simple. I will say, if the nook color could only read books, I would have regretted buying it, because for a little more I could have gotten a device that can do the same things and much more.
I don't see how they could compete against the competitors if they go about it that way, I don't think it is possible. "Their" market would have to have far far more to offer than all of the things already out. Our society is all about putting more functionality into one device, creating universal devices, not specialized ones.

Silentbtdeadly said:
Unless you can explain what makes them think they can market devices like that AND be able to compete against devices that can do all of that and more.. that device would have to be incredibly cheap for someone to buy it, plain and simple. I will say, if the nook color could only read books, I would have regretted buying it, because for a little more I could have gotten a device that can do the same things and much more.
I don't see how they could compete against the competitors if they go about it that way, I don't think it is possible. "Their" market would have to have far far more to offer than all of the things already out. Our society is all about putting more functionality into one device, creating universal devices, not specialized ones.
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I think you are missing Joe's point. B&N already had a Nook reader, but it was barely holding it's own against the Kindle reader. B&N then decided to come out with a better, color reader that could handle magazines and other color periodicals, something that the Kindle cannot do. On top of that they added basic tablet features such as email and web browsing as well as an app market to further distinguish it from the Kindle. It was not intended to be an iPad killer. However, through the hard work of the development community it has morphed into just about a full blown tablet, minus the mic and camera. At the time a new Nook Color was $250 while an iPad was twice as much as were most other tablets. The Nook Color was created to sell more books, magazines, newspaper subscriptions and some apps directly from B&N. Thankfully, B&N looked the other way when people started to root them. I guess they realized that once they got the NC into our hands, we would still probably use the Android Nook app and continue to buy books from them anyway. Since books are generally the same price as as Kindle books, I have and will continue to buy mine from B&N. I even got my wife one in a one day sale last week for $180 so we can share the books. She may decide to leave it stock since ti meets her needs already.

cincibluer6 said:
BN makes money on each NC sold (AFAIK) so even if somebody (like me) buys one just to have a tablet, they still make money off of it.
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Can you back that up with a source? I've been wondering about this for a long time, since I bought my NC only to use it as a tablet. Living in Germany, I couldn't buy B&N books even if I wanted to and that fact always bugged me a bit, since the NC obviously is so cheap because they want you to buy books.
I don't want to be ripping off a company that makes such awesome devices

Actually, there has been much debate over B&n making any real profit on the device.
Looking the main components:
1024x600 7" IPS Panel (not cheap)
TI Omap 3621 (eBook version of the 3630, featured in the Droid X)
512MB ram
8GB memory
4400mAh battery
As it is, the "cheap" tablets that are close in price, are not close in specs. Devices that ARE close in specs, are commonly more expensive.
At this point, i suspect they may be making a bit of money, but not much; and several months ago, i have no doubt that the nook was costing them, and that they really did rely on book sales (basically free money) to offset the losses.

Divine_Madcat said:
Actually, there has been much debate over B&n making any real profit on the device.
Looking the main components:
1024x600 7" IPS Panel (not cheap)
TI Omap 3621 (eBook version of the 3630, featured in the Droid X)
512MB ram
8GB memory
4400mAh battery
As it is, the "cheap" tablets that are close in price, are not close in specs. Devices that ARE close in specs, are commonly more expensive.
At this point, i suspect they may be making a bit of money, but not much; and several months ago, i have no doubt that the nook was costing them, and that they really did rely on book sales (basically free money) to offset the losses.
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I agree, it's most commonly estimated that the Bill of Materials for the Nook is around $200. Add in all the other overhead involved in marketing, supporting and shipping a product like this and you come to see that their profit margins are razor thin. Compare that to the iPad's BOM of $260 and you come to see that tablets like the iPad and the Nook are playing at very different games...

[Q] Motorola or play store?

Hey guys, what is the difference in ordering from the play stor vs motorola ie shipping, warranty etc. Going to try and order Wednesday a 64gb white and would like to get different opinions. Thanks

Good luck. I would try direct from Motorola.
It is the very definition of insanity to sit on a computer and hit refresh hoping for a chance to have the privilege of sending a corporation large chunks of money. Google has been doing some type of social experiment just to see how insane people actually are. I fell prey to this insanity and wasted literally hours attempting to give them my money. Not again. If they begin normal sales I may purchase one but then again I am thinking no corporation who does this sort of thing actually deserves my money. I may look elsewhere. I pulled out an old Note 1 and realized what a great device it was so the Note 4 is looking more attractive to me, even though I like/liked the original concept of Nexus and have purchased every Nexus device that came out. But if I do get one it will be direct from Motorola.

That'll teach 'em. Google still gets your money.
Sent from my VS980 4G using XDA Premium HD app

trickster2369 said:
That'll teach 'em. Google still gets your money.
Sent from my VS980 4G using XDA Premium HD app
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It is not about "teaching" anyone. It is about putting up with bulls***.

It's up to you, really. The warranty is exactly the same (It's Motorola's warranty in both cases). Google, historically, has been better about replacing defective/damaged units, but Moto has Moto Care, which is one of the cheapest accidental damage warranties out there. At this time, it doesn't look like you can buy Moto Care for a Play Store model, but that may change (and you can always get the slightly more expensive one from Fair Trade). Also, Moto's site is infinitely easier to order from right now, and they offer a payment plan, unlike Google. On the flip side, Moto charges you immediately, whereas Google only places a hold on your credit card, and doesn't actually charge you until the unit ships. Speaking of shipping, Moto ships via FedEx ground only, whereas Google offers UPS Ground, 2nd Day, and Next Day shipping options.
Pros and Cons either way. I chose Google, because of my past experiences with their replacement policies, but many people swear by Moto, so I think you'll be happy either way.

jt3 said:
It's up to you, really. The warranty is exactly the same (It's Motorola's warranty in both cases). Google, historically, has been better about replacing defective/damaged units, but Moto has Moto Care, which is one of the cheapest accidental damage warranties out there. At this time, it doesn't look like you can buy Moto Care for a Play Store model, but that may change (and you can always get the slightly more expensive one from Fair Trade). Also, Moto's site is infinitely easier to order from right now, and they offer a payment plan, unlike Google. On the flip side, Moto charges you immediately, whereas Google only places a hold on your credit card, and doesn't actually charge you until the unit ships. Speaking of shipping, Moto ships via FedEx ground only, whereas Google offers UPS Ground, 2nd Day, and Next Day shipping options.
Pros and Cons either way. I chose Google, because of my past experiences with their replacement policies, but many people swear by Moto, so I think you'll be happy either way.
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Ok that's what I wanted to know, thank you.

Can't will just buy insurance through the carriers? Verizon, Sprint, etc

Evidently no MotoCare for Nexus 6
https://forums.motorola.com/posts/1b06206026
In the motorola forums they said that they will not be offering Moto Care for the Nexus 6.

bsteiner36 said:
https://forums.motorola.com/posts/1b06206026
In the motorola forums they said that they will not be offering Moto Care for the Nexus 6.
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That's also been refuted several times by Moto reps, including specific pricing ($85 for 2 years). At this point, it's really a guessing game, since no REAL information will come out until the Nexus 6 is actually launched. With Moto, if you didn't/can't order the extended coverage at purchase time, you can call with the device information once you receive it. We'll know for sure once people receive their devices and attempt to add coverage.

jt3 said:
That's also been refuted several times by Moto reps, including specific pricing ($85 for 2 years). At this point, it's really a guessing game, since no REAL information will come out until the Nexus 6 is actually launched. With Moto, if you didn't/can't order the extended coverage at purchase time, you can call with the device information once you receive it. We'll know for sure once people receive their devices and attempt to add coverage.
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Also just found this, sorry if re post, make sure and read the entire feed. At first glance it gives you the impression that moto care will not be offered, then it goes on to say it is not offered right now, but will be.
https://twitter.com/MotorolaSupport/status/531497697937985537

chrisg1548 said:
Hey guys, what is the difference in ordering from the play stor vs motorola ie shipping, warranty etc. Going to try and order Wednesday a 64gb white and would like to get different opinions. Thanks
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From my personal experience I would order from the Google Play Store. Their customer support is amazing (surprisingly) and they gave me a replacement Nexus 5 at no charge because I had set a dumbell on my screen and it smeared everywhere. It was rooted/ unlocked and they could've cared less.
I've been lurking on the n6 forum because I want one but they are hard to comeby at the moment, and I am waiting to see what ATT does with theirs, if they will have ATT bloatware and so on.

mistahseller said:
From my personal experience I would order from the Google Play Store. Their customer support is amazing (surprisingly) and they gave me a replacement Nexus 5 at no charge because I had set a dumbell on my screen and it smeared everywhere. It was rooted/ unlocked and they could've cared less.
I've been lurking on the n6 forum because I want one but they are hard to comeby at the moment, and I am waiting to see what ATT does with theirs, if they will have ATT bloatware and so on.
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Thanks for the advice, as far as I know all models from the carriers shouldn't have bloat ware, not 100% sure.

Isn't it cheaper to order through Motorola? Free shipping and people are reporting the tax is cheaper too.

PS.