Okay, so this is a doozy. I recently got a Droid3 to replace my original Droid. I've had it for less than 3 months. Its been rooted using Pete's One Click Root for this entire time without any issues.
Last week the following symptoms manifested:
1) Most applications, including system applications, force close constantly.
2) I'm usually unable to run any applications, including the Market.
3) What applications are having issues is not consistent.
4) The phone will reboot itself randomly, sometimes constantly.
5) Sometimes after a reboot it gives me no service and has the "Touch Android to begin" screen again. The phone is completely unusable when it does this, and the only fix is to pull the battery and then its back to its previous state.
5) Any changes made to the phone do not survive a reboot.
This last one is the real kicker. I can go through, uninstall every application I've ever downloaded but if you restart the phone or it restarts itself they will all return. This goes for everything on my Internal Storage. The SDCard seems unaffected...
I tried the SBF trick here from rootzwiki. (can't link since I'm new)
This did not work. How it failed might be important:
1) The primary method (psouza4's) acts like its successful but doesn't actually do anything.
2) RSDLite method will fail in step 3 (mbmloader.bin) every time, no matter what fastboot file I try to use.
3) After doing RSDLite I had the "flashboot flash failed" error and the phone was unusable. I then tried psouza4's method again and my phone has reverted to the same broken state it was in when I started.
So I'm not at all sure what I can do here. Since the bootloader isn't cracked yet I have no means to load another ROM. The only method I can find for Droid3 is through a Marketplace app that, on the rare instances I can install it, force closes immediately!
Any advice or ideas at all would be nice.
As for what started this, only two things happened out of the normal phone usage:
1) My girlfriend tried to text me a picture for the first time (of some chairs she wanted to buy for those curious/suggestive ) which never got to me initially but when it finally did after the 4th attempt I was never able to download the image.
2) I put a PDF file on the Internal Storage. Its one I've had for years and its just some manual I needed mobile and I don't have a laptop. Confirmed its malware free as far as any software can tell.
Working theory is I unplugged my phone from the USB too quickly after uploading the file but I don't know for sure. Nothing else was done unless Verizon had a OTA update that would break a rooted phone (guessing not since no one else seems to have this issue anywhere).
Again, any help someone can provide would be excellent. I'm going to have to load up my broken Droid in the mean time. Keyboard doesn't work and the touchscreen is failing but it can take calls more reliably than my Droid3 currently!
Cowmonaut said:
Okay, so this is a doozy. I recently got a Droid3 to replace my original Droid. I've had it for less than 3 months. Its been rooted using Pete's One Click Root for this entire time without any issues.
Last week the following symptoms manifested:
1) Most applications, including system applications, force close constantly.
2) I'm usually unable to run any applications, including the Market.
3) What applications are having issues is not consistent.
4) The phone will reboot itself randomly, sometimes constantly.
5) Sometimes after a reboot it gives me no service and has the "Touch Android to begin" screen again. The phone is completely unusable when it does this, and the only fix is to pull the battery and then its back to its previous state.
5) Any changes made to the phone do not survive a reboot.
This last one is the real kicker. I can go through, uninstall every application I've ever downloaded but if you restart the phone or it restarts itself they will all return. This goes for everything on my Internal Storage. The SDCard seems unaffected...
I tried the SBF trick here from rootzwiki. (can't link since I'm new)
This did not work. How it failed might be important:
1) The primary method (psouza4's) acts like its successful but doesn't actually do anything.
2) RSDLite method will fail in step 3 (mbmloader.bin) every time, no matter what fastboot file I try to use.
3) After doing RSDLite I had the "flashboot flash failed" error and the phone was unusable. I then tried psouza4's method again and my phone has reverted to the same broken state it was in when I started.
So I'm not at all sure what I can do here. Since the bootloader isn't cracked yet I have no means to load another ROM. The only method I can find for Droid3 is through a Marketplace app that, on the rare instances I can install it, force closes immediately!
Any advice or ideas at all would be nice.
As for what started this, only two things happened out of the normal phone usage:
1) My girlfriend tried to text me a picture for the first time (of some chairs she wanted to buy for those curious/suggestive ) which never got to me initially but when it finally did after the 4th attempt I was never able to download the image.
2) I put a PDF file on the Internal Storage. Its one I've had for years and its just some manual I needed mobile and I don't have a laptop. Confirmed its malware free as far as any software can tell.
Working theory is I unplugged my phone from the USB too quickly after uploading the file but I don't know for sure. Nothing else was done unless Verizon had a OTA update that would break a rooted phone (guessing not since no one else seems to have this issue anywhere).
Again, any help someone can provide would be excellent. I'm going to have to load up my broken Droid in the mean time. Keyboard doesn't work and the touchscreen is failing but it can take calls more reliably than my Droid3 currently!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can say a couple words to describe my reaction.. OH ****. Your phone seems to have too many problems to be software related. Try to flash back to stock 5.6.890 and get a new phone.
Sent from my DROID3 using XDA App
Hmm, I guess for the mean time I'll just have to keep trying to get the Marketplace ROM Manager to install and launch. Should be a way to install straight to the SDCard that doesn't have problems.
Thinking it over, my Internal Storage may just have a bad sector... Yeesh.
Have you tried formatting /system in mounts and storage in CWM? Then reinstalling a fresh rom on top?
Sent from my DROID3 using xda premium
Negative. I didn't have CWM installed (stock ROM just rooted for certain apps) and apps are usually crashing now.
I'll give that a shot though. Sometimes I can use an app so maybe if I'm persistent...
and to verify, you are using the verizon droid 3 xt862? Are you on 5.5.959 or 5.6.890 (or possibly 5.7.894)?
Yea can't get any new apps to run. Interestingly, the camera app seems to crash the OS at the moment.
I think I'm going to have to try to RMA...
MrJudylicious said:
and to verify, you are using the verizon droid 3 xt862? Are you on 5.5.959 or 5.6.890 (or possibly 5.7.894)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its running 5.6.890. Unless I'm mistaken its the xt862. I've only had it since September.
well as long as root isnt showing and the /system hasnt been changed from stock rom, it should work. i do find it bad that rsd didnt work. i wonder if you were trying to flash the .959 sbf on your .890 system? I would def try again to sbf and wipe data/cache through stock recovery after that using volume buttons (android!)
Well, that's kind of the problem. Changes don't survive a reboot so i haven't been able to unroot the phone. I double checked and the file was the .890 flashboot. Wiping data/cache literally does nothing.
Is there a way to format this offline, from a PC? Going to try some more Google searches...
wiping data/cache should erase all of your saved data and force you to *228. Make sure USB debugging is on, set usb to Charge Only, try petes motorola tools to unroot but using RSD 5.5 fastboot .890 found http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1255198
MrJudylicious said:
wiping data/cache should erase all of your saved data and force you to *228. Make sure USB debugging is on, set usb to Charge Only, try petes motorola tools to unroot but using RSD 5.5 fastboot .890 found http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1255198
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) How do you unroot with Pete's motorola tools? Is it a different version than the one click root? Cause that's how I rooted my phone in the first place but it doesn't seem to have an option to unroot...
2) The link for the flashboot file gives a 404 error. The attached .RAR only has the .XML file.
Any place else I can get that version?
just enter stock recovery by holding down the x key on the keyboard when you boot up and wipe data
Edit: srry didnt read the full post
jellydroid13 said:
just enter stock recovery by holding down the x key on the keyboard when you boot up and wipe data
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you read the original post, that doesn't work.
Okay so I had an outdated version of Pete's tools which is why I didn't see the unroot option. Mine is the older one that was a batch file, not a application.
Got that sorted out and it still doesn't work. Seems I may have some permissions issues:
Code:
> su
> /system/xbin/su
> mount -o remount,rw /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system
> if [ -e /data/local/12m.bak ];
> then
> rm /data/local/12m.bak
> fi
> exit
> exit
[email protected]_solana:/$ su
exit
exit
exit
Permission denied
sh[email protected]_solana:/$ /system/xbin/su
Permission denied
[email protected]_solana:/$ mount -o remount,rw /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system
mount: Operation not permitted
[email protected]_solana:/$ if [ -e /data/local/12m.bak ];
> then
> rm /data/local/12m.bak
> fi
[email protected]_solana:/$ exit
(success)
That's part of the ADB log. There are a lot of other permission denied messages, which is a little comforting. The only thing I could think of that happened is permissions didn't get set right when Internal Storage was unmounted from my PC.
Since I can use ADB to access the shell, how can I format /system on the droid3? I can't seem to find the correct root name to use.
Cowmonaut said:
Okay so I had an outdated version of Pete's tools which is why I didn't see the unroot option. Mine is the older one that was a batch file, not a application.
Got that sorted out and it still doesn't work. Seems I may have some permissions issues:
Code:
> su
> /system/xbin/su
> mount -o remount,rw /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system
> if [ -e /data/local/12m.bak ];
> then
> rm /data/local/12m.bak
> fi
> exit
> exit
[email protected]_solana:/$ su
exit
exit
exit
Permission denied
[email protected]_solana:/$ /system/xbin/su
Permission denied
[email protected]_solana:/$ mount -o remount,rw /dev/block/mtdblock3 /system
mount: Operation not permitted
[email protected]_solana:/$ if [ -e /data/local/12m.bak ];
> then
> rm /data/local/12m.bak
> fi
[email protected]_solana:/$ exit
(success)
That's part of the ADB log. There are a lot of other permission denied messages, which is a little comforting. The only thing I could think of that happened is permissions didn't get set right when Internal Storage was unmounted from my PC.
Since I can use ADB to access the shell, how can I format /system on the droid3? I can't seem to find the correct root name to use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried to root manually? Here are the original instructions vulnfactory.org/blog/2011/08/25/rooting-the-droid-3/
[edit] I guess I miss read that you are trying to unroot.
try http://rootzwiki.com/topic/4370-sbf-droid-3-fastboot-files-55959-and-56890/ but you cant go from .890 back to .959! no idea about mounting, sorry.
MrJudylicious said:
try http://rootzwiki.com/topic/4370-sbf-droid-3-fastboot-files-55959-and-56890/ but you cant go from .890 back to .959! no idea about mounting, sorry.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the reference to Rootzwiki I made in the original post, doesn't work sorry.
Using ADB I mounted /system as rw and tried to manually remove certain apps. Once I re-mounted they were there again. So something is preventing me from making real changes to the Internal Storage.
Cowmonaut said:
That's the reference to Rootzwiki I made in the original post, doesn't work sorry.
Using ADB I mounted /system as rw and tried to manually remove certain apps. Once I re-mounted they were there again. So something is preventing me from making real changes to the Internal Storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have superuser permissions.. In the ADB shell your command line should start with a # indicating superuser permissions.. you have a $
ChaoticWeaponry said:
You don't have superuser permissions.. In the ADB shell your command line should start with a # indicating superuser permissions.. you have a $
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where do you get that idea?
When I do this manually:
1) I'm running the command prompt as Administrator
2)I'm launching into adb using the command "adb shell".
3) First thing I do is type in "su"
4) second thing I do is approve "unknown" in the superuser app on account of it never remembering I already did that.
5) I use the command "mount -o rw,remount -t yaffs2 /dev/block/mtdblock4 /system"
6) I use the "ls" command on /system/app and find an .apk to uninstall (not all my apps seem to be installed in this location either...)
7) I use the "pm list packages" command to find the rest of the files for that .apk
8) I use "rm <filename>.apk" followed by "pm uninstall <whatever that developer chose to name things>" command to fully uninstall.
I should note on my phone at this point it disappear from the application list.
9) I use the command "mount -o ro,remount -t yaffs2 /dev/block/mtdblock4 /system"
10) I use the "ls" command on /system/app to confirm and voila, the apk file is back!
The app doesn't show up in my app manager until I reboot the phone. Changes to /system and /data are not persisting and I have no idea why.
I can't seem to unmount them either so I can't format via ADB...
I bought a tab S2 about a month ago to replace my HP touchpad i've had/been using since the firesale about 4 yrs ago. At the time of purchase, I discovered really quickly that lack of custom roms on the S2 at that time was to much of an issue, and I returned it.
I am however seeing an alpha of CyanogenMod for the tab S2 that's looking pretty close to usable. Given that the tab is also on sale this week, i'm very much inclined to repurchase it, however, question: Does cifs/smb mounting remote filesystems work with the tab s2 rom that was posted?
You can do that on the stock S2 with many different apps in the Play Store. ie. ES File Explorer, Solid Explorer, AndSMB
nrage23 said:
You can do that on the stock S2 with many different apps in the Play Store. ie. ES File Explorer, Solid Explorer, AndSMB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct me please if i'm wrong, but those applications just allow me to browse remote filesystems from the application itself. They don't smb mount them. It's the cifs.ko file i'm missing (which i'm assuming is included with cm12?)
The cifs.ko file would have to be done via a kernel module based on what I seen from other devices. I do not know if it is included in CM kernels or not.
Did you or anyone get cifs working?
I understand it may be possible to compile a cifs.ko and insmod it.
I don't know how possible that is but whilst I'm googling how to compile I thought I'd see if anyone had done it.
Cheers, Guy
I got CIFS mount working on my 710 by installing Neked_Nook_MM-710-V1 and my fork of @engine95 mm kernel which has the cifs module enabled.
Hi thanks for the reply
I don't suppose you have any tips or suggested posts/ guides I could use to recreate your setup?
I guess I could figure out how to get neked nook flashed based on the guides but the fork of the engine95 Kernel that includes cifs..? I can see a post about the permissive kernel by engine95..
Is your device fully functional and stable now?
Thanks a lot,
Guy
Neked nook is very stable. My tab s2 has not crashed so far with that rom, and my custom kernel. I have attached my boot image. This is a fork of engine95 kernel with just cifs module added. This kernel only works on MM.
Extract boot.zip and flash boot.img via twrp(boot image) or fastboot.
You can use the attached cifs manager to mount your smb/cifs drives on android as a directory.
I am only able to mount it to /mnt/drive. I could not get it to mount to /sdcard.
Awesome thanks
I use cifsmanager on a Chuwi hi12 that i've rooted, it already has the cifs modules and permissive kernel so I am able to mount the shares almost wherever I like - and I use cifsmanager to poke 1TB of satellite images into the map folder of my mapping app on the SD card. But I don't know if cifs was in the kernel (chuwi is on lollipop) already or part of the rooting process, would love to recreate the setup on my samsung as its a far superior device.
I'll give it a go this weekend, really appreciate you taking the time to upload the files you used.
Cheers,
Guy
Hi Currowth,
I know life is too short to help each noob, but can I trouble you for another pointer?
I used the full image of Neked Nook MM v1, and the boot image you provided, and the tablet is working great, and if I cat /proc/filesystems I can now see cifs listed....but..
I can't mount any cifs shares - to anywhere, including /mnt/drive. I get the mount failed Mount: I/O error.
(I think my process was along the lines of: ODIN to cf-autoroot (i'd actually done this a while before starting this thread so including in case its relevant, as i dont know if there is an issue with a /system or systemless root?) then I ODIN'd TWRP on, took a full backup with TWRP and then wiped data,cache, system etc and flashed Neked Nook on, booted into NNook, then went back to twrp and put the boot image you provided on.
Any help greatly appreciated.
If it means anything I'm not trying to watch Batman in bed, I'm trying to put together a repeatable solution for me and my overland traveller friends so we can take huge amounts of map and satellite image tiles completely offline when we're driving our landrovers, toyotas etc across deserts where sat navs or road maps are useless.
thanks again,
Guy
*Edited to add i've been googling the crap out of the mount i/o error, tried a patched version of cifsmanager, tried copying the apk to the system/apps folder and changing its permissions before reinstalling.. no joy
Looks like it can be a root issue. This is what i flashed to get root. "BETA-SuperSU-v2.74-2-20160519174328"
try to install busybox also and try again.
If that does not work:
Can you try to run this in adb shell as root?
mount -t cifs -o username="username",password="password" //smbpath/dir mnt/cifs/dir
replace "username,"password", and smbpath/dir
Guy009 said:
Hi Currowth,
I know life is too short to help each noob, but can I trouble you for another pointer?
I used the full image of Neked Nook MM v1, and the boot image you provided, and the tablet is working great, and if I cat /proc/filesystems I can now see cifs listed....but..
I can't mount any cifs shares - to anywhere, including /mnt/drive. I get the mount failed Mount: I/O error.
(I think my process was along the lines of: ODIN to cf-autoroot (i'd actually done this a while before starting this thread so including in case its relevant, as i dont know if there is an issue with a /system or systemless root?) then I ODIN'd TWRP on, took a full backup with TWRP and then wiped data,cache, system etc and flashed Neked Nook on, booted into NNook, then went back to twrp and put the boot image you provided on.
Any help greatly appreciated.
If it means anything I'm not trying to watch Batman in bed, I'm trying to put together a repeatable solution for me and my overland traveller friends so we can take huge amounts of map and satellite image tiles completely offline when we're driving our landrovers, toyotas etc across deserts where sat navs or road maps are useless.
thanks again,
Guy
*Edited to add i've been googling the crap out of the mount i/o error, tried a patched version of cifsmanager, tried copying the apk to the system/apps folder and changing its permissions before reinstalling.. no joy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for coming back Currowth,
Ok my SuperSU from the original cf-autoroot was 2.46. I assumed I needed to remove that so I ran the unroot function and then used twrp to flash the version you linked to, after reboot SuperSu is at 2.74.
Unfortunately i have the same I/O error.
I also ran adb root from my win10 machine and tried the manual mount command as you suggested - it returns I/O error also. Initially it said 'no such file or directory' so I manually created the dir, with the name the same as the share dir, in /mnt/cifs.
command output
255|[email protected]:/ # mount -t cifs -o username=admin,password=admin //10.10.10.254/Public1 /mnt/cifs/Public1
mount: No such file or directory
255|[email protected]:/ # cd /mnt/cifs
[email protected]:/mnt/cifs # mkdir Public1
255|[email protected]:/ # mount -t cifs -o username=admin,password=admin //10.10.10.254/Public1 /mnt/cifs/Public1
mount: I/O error
One other thing, in the NNook image thread, i see it says make sure you 'ODIN M' first. I'm embarrassed to say i don't know what that means!
update in mean time: i started again, based on doing all the flashing whilst rooted with the older supersu. So i've unrooted, rooted with your beta_xx linked above, wiped system, cache, data and dalvik, flashed the Neked Nook full MM V1 ROM, booted into that, then back to twrp to flash the boot.img you linked above, installed busybox, the linked cifsmanager, tried to mount, then updated supersu as recommended in NNook thread, rebooted and tried mount again but no joy, always getting i/o error.
just for further info, the shared folder does work on my chuwi with cifsmanager, so hopefully that is not the issue. Before I re-did the ROM and the boot image, i installed paragon ntfs and was able to successfully mount an NTFS formatted SD card into the /mnt/cifs/public1 directory.
interestingly cifsmanager couldn't create the directories under /mnt, but i was able to create them manually and then get an IO error. I changed permissions on the /mnt/cifs folder and now it can create the directory when attempting to mount but still gets IO error.
i'm beyond my depth, guess it feels like cifsmanager is either not working or not got permission - or something i've done prior to the NN and kernel flashes has caused an issue.
Its starting to feel like a lost cause. You know better than me - if this is the end of the easy flash-type fixes to try, perhaps I should just throw in the towel.
Thanks again for your help Currowth, you're a gent
I just did a clean install to replicate you issue, but was not able to reproduce it. 'ODIN M' means that install a marshmallow rom first via ODIN. If you already came from a marshmallow ROM, you can ignore it.
The steps i took to ensure that i am was able to get cifs were the following:
First i installed "Neked_Nook_MM-710-V1.zip"
Next I installed "BETA-SuperSU-v2.74-2-20160519174328.zip"
Last i installed "boot.img"
I did this all through twrp.
Reboot, dont setup knox if it asks you to.
Try to do a wipe, then reinstall the following and try again.
Guy009 said:
Thanks for coming back Currowth,
Ok my SuperSU from the original cf-autoroot was 2.46. I assumed I needed to remove that so I ran the unroot function and then used twrp to flash the version you linked to, after reboot SuperSu is at 2.74.
Unfortunately i have the same I/O error.
I also ran adb root from my win10 machine and tried the manual mount command as you suggested - it returns I/O error also. Initially it said 'no such file or directory' so I manually created the dir, with the name the same as the share dir, in /mnt/cifs.
command output
255|[email protected]:/ # mount -t cifs -o username=admin,password=admin //10.10.10.254/Public1 /mnt/cifs/Public1
mount: No such file or directory
255|[email protected]:/ # cd /mnt/cifs
[email protected]:/mnt/cifs # mkdir Public1
255|[email protected]:/ # mount -t cifs -o username=admin,password=admin //10.10.10.254/Public1 /mnt/cifs/Public1
mount: I/O error
One other thing, in the NNook image thread, i see it says make sure you 'ODIN M' first. I'm embarrassed to say i don't know what that means!
update in mean time: i started again, based on doing all the flashing whilst rooted with the older supersu. So i've unrooted, rooted with your beta_xx linked above, wiped system, cache, data and dalvik, flashed the Neked Nook full MM V1 ROM, booted into that, then back to twrp to flash the boot.img you linked above, installed busybox, the linked cifsmanager, tried to mount, then updated supersu as recommended in NNook thread, rebooted and tried mount again but no joy, always getting i/o error.
just for further info, the shared folder does work on my chuwi with cifsmanager, so hopefully that is not the issue. Before I re-did the ROM and the boot image, i installed paragon ntfs and was able to successfully mount an NTFS formatted SD card into the /mnt/cifs/public1 directory.
interestingly cifsmanager couldn't create the directories under /mnt, but i was able to create them manually and then get an IO error. I changed permissions on the /mnt/cifs folder and now it can create the directory when attempting to mount but still gets IO error.
i'm beyond my depth, guess it feels like cifsmanager is either not working or not got permission - or something i've done prior to the NN and kernel flashes has caused an issue.
Its starting to feel like a lost cause. You know better than me - if this is the end of the easy flash-type fixes to try, perhaps I should just throw in the towel.
Thanks again for your help Currowth, you're a gent
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks Currowth I will try and give it a go tomorrow
Just a thought, are you booting into Android after each step, or doing all the flashing in one twrp session then doing first boot once all items are flashed?
I flashed them in one session without rebooting.
Hi Currowth, I've had a breakthrough!
I re did the NNook/root/boot image in the order you advised.
I have been using a patriot node WiFi disk enclosure, that works with cifs manager on my other tablet. Today I was working away from the WiFi disk so I made do with a windows pc to provide a shared folder. After setting cifs manager up I was able to mount the share under /mnt, but not to any other location. I got back to my WiFi disk, and that continued to give an io error!? So windows worked but the patriot didn't. Weird. I'd ruled the patriot out as it works on my 5.1 lollipop tab.
So I continued to mess around... I had stumbled across another app called mount manager by Ryan conrad (I don't have the link but I have the apk) which has more noob-friendly options and found if I used the ntlmv2 option I could mount the patriot into /mnt !
I did try to get it to mount to other locations and although it succeeded in the app, the mounted folder was empty.
As my app - Osmand+ has the option to manually specify it data folders I created a 777 permission folder for it under /mnt, and then mounted the patriot containing my satellite images into the appropriate empty tile folder.
Working solution!!! If a little messy.
Thanks so much for your help, the Samsung s2 is about 400% faster and more practical than the other tablet so really happy
I don't know why android devices are so limited by manufacturers when the OS is capable of so much, but that's a different conversation haha
A follow up on this in case it is useful to others...
Using /mnt was a bad idea. /mnt is mounted / built on a system partition as a mount point for other file systems or devices (how I have explained it to myself). So anything you add here as a folder gets destroyed when you reboot.
So, I installed my osmand app to /data/osmand and then used a root terminal to run "chmod -R 777 /data/osmand/" to set permissions to 777 on that folder and all subfolders.
After doing this I was able to get mount manager to mount my cifs share into an empty subfolder in the apps folder tree.
I initially tried changing permissions on /data in case it was needed for folders further down the tree, but it was not needed - which is just as well because again, /data is mounted at boot with 771 permissions, so changes 777 back to 771 after reboot. To change that would involve unpacking the boot image in order to edit the init.rc file and then repacking. I didn't bother it was not required.
If anyone wants mount manager, Google 'ryan conrad mount manager' and take your chance with the apk sites, can't remember whigh site I used!