Database Develop

Water resistance and warranty ?

Found this interesting piece on Sony's website:
"In compliance with IP5/7 and IP5X, Xperia Z is protected against the ingress of dust and is water resistant. Provided that all ports and covers are firmly closed, the phone is (i) protected against low pressure jets of water from all practicable directions in compliance with IP 55; and/or (ii) can be kept under 1 metre of freshwater for up to 30 minutes in compliance with IP 57. The phone is not designed to float or work submerged underwater outside the IP55 or IP57 classification range and should not be exposed to any liquid chemicals. If liquid detection is triggered on the handset or battery, your warranty will be void."
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It's obvious they will void your warranty if you leave the covers open and damage your phone. But what happens if one of the covers starts leaking due to, i don't know, being old and losing its rubber seal's tightness ? Clearly, it is not designed to be used in a shower etc, but rather survive accidental contact with water - but still, if it's IP rated it means we should be able to do it, or just "wash" our phones if they get dirty - goodbye cleaning cloths.
All water-resistant devices are very tricky if we look at warranty conditions. I'm just wondering how will Sony handle this one - is it possible to tell if the phone was damaged because the user screwed up, or because the water resistance failed somehow.
Have you guys had any experiences with IP-certified devices before ?

Akiainavas said:
Found this interesting piece on Sony's website:
It's obvious they will void your warranty if you leave the covers open and damage your phone. But what happens if one of the covers starts leaking due to, i don't know, being old and losing its rubber seal's tightness ? Clearly, it is not designed to be used in a shower etc, but rather survive accidental contact with water - but still, if it's IP rated it means we should be able to do it, or just "wash" our phones if they get dirty - goodbye cleaning cloths.
All water-resistant devices are very tricky if we look at warranty conditions. I'm just wondering how will Sony handle this one - is it possible to tell if the phone was damaged because the user screwed up, or because the water resistance failed somehow.
Have you guys had any experiences with IP-certified devices before ?
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+1
Anyone?
sent from Giant Killer Galaxy Note 2

Sv: Water resistance and warranty ?
Interesting thought there. Sony is going to have a tough time when the inevitable cases of warranty come up. It'll be nearly impossible to determine, where the fault lies, say tur covers get bad over time.. Unless they dry it up, and test the waterresistance of the covers.. But who knows.. They might just declare it void at will.. Lot of companies tend to do that..
Sent from my SGPT12 using xda app-developers app

lol yall think they are actually going to cover water damage?? yall are crazy
there is no way those flaps are going to hold for 2 years strong if you open and close them everyday to charge your phone....people would just be claiming water damage warranty every few months just to get a new phone....i dont see sony shelling out $700 phones because there is no way to tell if the flaps are open or closed during the time of water damage they are always going to say its your fault and not honor the warranty and you really have no way of arguing with them....
they are clearly stating your warranty is void in the case of water damage for a reason....waterproof or not you wont be getting a warranty replacement if the water does actually mess the phone up
i would never get this phone wet on purpose....

djq said:
lol yall think they are actually going to cover water damage?? yall are crazy
there is no way those flaps are going to hold for 2 years strong if you open and close them everyday to charge your phone....people would just be claiming water damage warranty every few months just to get a new phone....i dont see sony shelling out $700 phones because there is no way to tell if the flaps are open or closed during the time of water damage they are always going to say its your fault and not honor the warranty and you really have no way of arguing with them....
they are clearly stating your warranty is void in the case of water damage for a reason....waterproof or not you wont be getting a warranty replacement if the water does actually mess the phone up
i would never get this phone wet on purpose....
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I will sue Sony for that as I have decided that I will hardly open those flaps..always use dock for charging and m already always use bluetooth headsets !!
sent from Giant Killer Galaxy Note 2

djq said:
lol yall think they are actually going to cover water damage?? yall are crazy
... they are always going to say its your fault and not honor the warranty and you really have no way of arguing with them....
they are clearly stating your warranty is void in the case of water damage for a reason....waterproof or not you wont be getting a warranty replacement if the water does actually mess the phone up
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maybe in the country you're living in.
djq said:
i would never get this phone wet on purpose....
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if sony would act the way you said, then it doesn't matter if you got your phone wet by purpose, accident or waterproof failure

[Q] [Problem]My Z3 doesn't recognize the earphones after taking photos underwater

I'm having lots of troubles with my Z3 after taking some photos under water
thou that i didn't go deep or for along time ...
now the device doesn't recognize the earphones ... and before it dose that the sound was very low BTW , the rotation sensor is not working too,
can anyone tell me what to do to get my phone to normal again plz :crying::crying:

Use a dryer or just dry up the phone. As per Sony's website about water usage it says it may take up to 3 hours of drying for the earphones/speakers to start being useful.

It seems you have voided your phone's warranty by taking photos underwater and taking the phone "completely" under water. Also none of the Z phones are meant for under water shooting either videos or photos.
The IP rating of your device was achieved in laboratory conditions in standby mode, so you should not use the device underwater, such as taking pictures. Do not use the device to take photos while performing any type of activity underwater, including diving or snorkeling.
Drying times will vary depending on the environment, but the process may take up to three hours. During this time, you can still use all the features that do not rely on the speaker or microphone – you can take photos, check your email or send text messages without a worry.
Do not use a hair dryer to dry any wet parts.
http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/

rdosti said:
It seems you have voided your phone's warranty by taking photos underwater and taking the phone "completely" under water. Also none of the Z phones are meant for under water shooting either videos or photos.
The IP rating of your device was achieved in laboratory conditions in standby mode, so you should not use the device underwater, such as taking pictures. Do not use the device to take photos while performing any type of activity underwater, including diving or snorkeling.
Drying times will vary depending on the environment, but the process may take up to three hours. During this time, you can still use all the features that do not rely on the speaker or microphone – you can take photos, check your email or send text messages without a worry.
Do not use a hair dryer to dry any wet parts.
http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/
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i thought is was a feature of the device to take photos underwater ...
It's been 3 days now and the earphones and the rotation sensor still not working
Please tell me if there is anyway to fix that ... i need the earphones to work even more important then rotation

rdosti said:
It seems you have voided your phone's warranty by taking photos underwater and taking the phone "completely" under water. Also none of the Z phones are meant for under water shooting either videos or photos.
The IP rating of your device was achieved in laboratory conditions in standby mode, so you should not use the device underwater, such as taking pictures. Do not use the device to take photos while performing any type of activity underwater, including diving or snorkeling.
Drying times will vary depending on the environment, but the process may take up to three hours. During this time, you can still use all the features that do not rely on the speaker or microphone – you can take photos, check your email or send text messages without a worry.
Do not use a hair dryer to dry any wet parts.
http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/
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Thanks a lot for posting this! This phone and Sony's warranty are turning into a solid joke.
In the ads, have people jump into the water with the phone recording media, but refuse to cover this under warranty! Makes me angry.
Sent from my E6553

I agree.
I don't believe too many customers are not dunking their phone enough otherwise this would have been a class action lawsuit by now.

I have had my Phone submerged in water to take test Photo, never in a lake or a sea tho.
In the quickstart guide that came with it, it says, do not use charger or headphones if the socket is wet or similar.
Sent from my E6553 using XDA Free mobile app

On the website it says don't "completely" submerge it at all else it will void your warranty. How clear enough is that

rdosti said:
It seems you have voided your phone's warranty by taking photos underwater and taking the phone "completely" under water. Also none of the Z phones are meant for under water shooting either videos or photos.
The IP rating of your device was achieved in laboratory conditions in standby mode, so you should not use the device underwater, such as taking pictures. Do not use the device to take photos while performing any type of activity underwater, including diving or snorkeling.
Drying times will vary depending on the environment, but the process may take up to three hours. During this time, you can still use all the features that do not rely on the speaker or microphone – you can take photos, check your email or send text messages without a worry.
Do not use a hair dryer to dry any wet parts.
http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/
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rdosti said:
On the website it says don't "completely" submerge it at all else it will void your warranty. How clear enough is that
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Please stop posting false information!
a) You do not void your warranty if you completely submerge your Sony Xperia Z2 / Z3 / Z3+ / Z3v / Z4 in fresh water up to 1,5 meter and up to 30 minutes. The website you linked is talking about bath water which has a much lower surface tension because of the shampoo, shower gel, etc. you used and a lower surface tension makes it much easier for the liquid to enter the phone.
b) You do not void your warranty if you take photos or videos while your Sony Xperia Z2 / Z3 / Z3+ / Z3v / Z4 is completely submerged in fresh water and as long as you do not use any hardware buttons (power, volume, camera). The website you linked talks about non-fresh water.
With the waterproof Xperia Z3v, you can take pictures with the best smartphone camera while swimming in fresh water for up to 30 minutes. You can even dive down to 5 feet with it. Just remember that all the covers for the micro USB port, the micro SIM slot and the memory card slot must be firmly closed.
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http://www.sonymobile.com/us/products/phones/xperia-z3v/features/

With the waterproof Xperia Z3v, you can take pictures with the best smartphone camera while swimming in fresh water for up to 30 minutes. You can even dive down to 5 feet with it. Just remember that all the covers for the micro USB port, the micro SIM slot and the memory card slot must be firmly closed.
Do you even read what you copy and paste from a website or do you just like arguing for the fun of it ?
Please Reference: http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/
You can dive down, but not use the phone in active mode. You can swim (swimming is not taking under water videos) with it.
In fact it is a marketing page very well written without mentioning what you can't do because thats exactly what it is for - marketing and selling ! You need to find the right page to get the warranty details as well as "waterproof allowed and not allowed".However the link I have sent on another thread you tried to disturb with wrong information - clearly instructs what not to do , which indeed can void your warranty.
Please get your facts straight before insulting or disrespecting a fellow member. On another thread you have tried to sell an app. Are you planning to take responsibility for any damage to anyone's phone by giving them wrong advice. If you want, go over to Amazon.com and look at under water cover reviews and even reviews about any of Z models where customers as well as cover sellers have discussed this in detail as well.
You are wrong. It clearly mentions it should not be "fully submerged period".
http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/
Forgot "the features". You need to check the water proof warranty details. Features is all marketing crap. Ask the support center. Do not guide people wrongly without checking or call the support team!
You attempted to give wrong information here as well :http://forum.xda-developers.com/xperia-z4/help/how-underwater-camera-usage-video-photos-t3181236
Which I promptly replied with sentences from the Sony Website Page all about waterproofing for all their devices, not just any one or two.
Anyways to summarize the details:
From the Sony website (Basic Care section) :
1. "The IP rating of your device was achieved in laboratory conditions in standby mode, so you should not use the device underwater, such as taking pictures. Do not use the device to take photos while performing any type of activity underwater, including diving or snorkeling."
2. "Do not expose the device to seawater, salt water, chlorinated water or liquids such as fruit drinks, liquid detergent and vinegar."
--- So there goes any thought of using it in chlorinated water too.
3. Warranty, repairs and customer service
It’s important to know that your warranty does not cover damage or defects caused by abuse or improper use of your device. Also note that compatible accessories, including batteries, chargers, hands-free devices, keyboards and micro USB cables, are not waterproof and dust protected on their own.
4. If the device is "accidentally" exposed to non-fresh water, such as chlorinated water from a swimming pool, always rinse your device off using fresh water.
Notice: Accidentally and not "On Purpose".
From the Website (refer to the last point)
"Taking photos and movies in wet surroundings. Remember not to use the device underwater. If you accidentally get the device wet with non-fresh water, wash the device with tap water."
Again all you need to know is clearly and publicly available on their website.
http://support.sonymobile.com/in/dm/waterproof/
I have asked Sony Service center and they have clearly mentioned you can't submerge it and if there is any water damage, it will "NOT" be replaced for free.
If anyone has a story about getting away with a free replacement - go ahead and let us know
---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------
By the way if you really want to go to the link YOU Mentioned, it does not mention you should take photos UNDER water. It just says you can take it with you. There is no mention of submerge in the link you provided.
Better yet just called Sony Service center and ask them. Genuine ones will tell you that indeed warranty is void if you mention to them even by mistake you took it under water and used in actively or submerged it. Doesn't even matter what water it was if it was not on standby.

Just in case someone plans to diss the Indian support saying it doesn't know anything or the website... UK has the similar information available on it's website (I'm certain USA has a link too similar to this)
http://support.sonymobile.com/gb/xperiaz3/dm/water-and-dust-resistance/
Though I have noticed only the Asian websites are up to date (or perhaps loaded with more) with detailed information, which is strange. The UK data lacks a lot of points mentioned on the Asian websites regarding details of waterproofing, etc.

The Galaxy S9 Is IP68 Water-Resistant — Here's What That Really Means

The day has finally arrived — Samsung has unveiled the Galaxy S9 and S9+. Apart from minor upgrades, the two might not appear to be much different from last year's S8 and S8+, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. One feature that hasn't changed is the Galaxy's IP68 water-resistance rating. That's a great score, but it begs the question — what does that number really mean?
First of all, if you don't know what the IEC 60529 is, don't worry — it's a standard put out by the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, which is basically a test with set rules and regulations. A device is then assigned an IP rating for resistance to dust and water in accordance to its performance on the test. To quote the standard itself:
— National Electrical Manufacturers Association said:
This standard describes a system for classifying the degrees of protection provided by enclosures of electrical equipment for two conditions: 1) the protection of persons against access to hazardous parts and protection of equipment against the ingress of solid foreign objects and 2) the ingress of water. The degree of protection against these two conditions is designated by an IP Code.
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While "IP Code" really stands for "International Protection Marking," most nowadays refer to it as "Ingress Protection." All that really means is how well protected a device is against dust and water.
Speaking of dust and water, those elements are not weighed together into one grade. In fact, the number assigned to a device — the one that appears after the "IP" prefix — are two individual ratings. The first number denotes how "dust-proof" the device is, or how well the device protects against dust and solid particles, while the second reflects its "waterproofing," or how well the device keeps water from entering and damaging the sensitive electronic parts inside.
Samsung's latest Galaxy devices both earned themselves a rating of IP68 in the IEC 60529 tests. While a very high score — higher than the 2017 line of iPhones' IP67 — these phones are not waterproof, just water resistant.
IP: The abbreviation of "Ingress Protection," the rating system for a device's dust- and water-resistance.
6: An IP rating's first number represents a device's dust protection rating. A "6," although smaller than the S9's second IP number, actually means the device is completely dustproof. Good on you, Samsung!
8: Water resistance is denoted by the second number of the rating. An "8" shows that the S9 devices can be fully submerged in water as deep as 1.5 meters for up to 30 minutes. For reference, the iPhone X, which scored a "7," can be submerged for 30 minutes at 1 meter deep.
So, what does this mean for you? If you accidentally drop your new phone in your toilet, get caught in the rain, or spill a tasty beverage on it, you shouldn't panic. However, you shouldn't push your luck — going swimming with an IP68-certified device isn't foolproof, and the chemicals you find in a swimming pool or the saltwater of the ocean might not mix well with your S9. Our advice? So just be careful.
You see, while the IP Rating claims a certain level of protection against water and dust, it doesn't take in account chemicals or particles that you might find dissolved in water. Saltwater and chlorine can hurt the finish of your S9, and even damage the rubber protection that gives your phone its IP68 rating. While it's certainly tempting, we'd recommend you not plunge underwater with your phone in-hand. It might be fine, but if it's not, you could be on your own.
You see, while the IP Rating claims a certain level of protection against water and dust, it doesn't take in account chemicals or particles that you might find dissolved in water. Saltwater and chlorine can hurt the finish of your S9, and even damage the rubber protection that gives your phone its IP68 rating. While it's certainly tempting, we'd recommend you not plunge underwater with your phone in-hand. It might be fine, but if it's not, you could be on your own.
It all comes down to your warranty coverage. While we don't know yet about the S9's policy, with the S8, Samsung includes a limited warranty that covers manufacturer defects for one year, battery issues for six months, among other things. However, soak your S8 to the point of damage? You've voided your warranty.
That changes if you opt-in to Samsung Premium Care, a monthly-subscription coverage that extends the boundaries of your warranty by leaps and bounds. If you take your S8 for a swim, the device will be completely covered, even if the components inside fry before you dry. You get up to three cases of accidental damage per 12 month period, though, so the fourth time you lose your Galaxy at the bottom of the pool, it's like you never had coverage to begin with.
In short, what you've heard about the S9 is mostly true — the phone stands up well against the elements. While spills, grime, and accidental submerges shouldn't be cause for concern, we'd still warn against diving deep with your S9. It doesn't matter if the phone is IP68 or IP67 — if water touches the wrong parts, you could be in trouble.

Quick question related to that. Can I take it in the shower or something?

Paradoxxx said:
Quick question related to that. Can I take it in the shower or something?
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Here's Samsung's official word on their IP68 rating and the Galaxy devices: http://www.samsung.com/au/pdf/IP68.pdf
Personally I won't ever put my device under any water at all. Sure, it's water resistant, but if you ever drop, or bump your device, that could be enough to put a TINY little micro leak in the water seal, allowing water into the device. And if that happens, bye bye device, bye bye warranty.
I've never understood people who take their phone into the shower to be honest.

the_scotsman said:
Here's Samsung's official word on their IP68 rating and the Galaxy devices: http://www.samsung.com/au/pdf/IP68.pdf
Personally I won't ever put my device under any water at all. Sure, it's water resistant, but if you ever drop, or bump your device, that could be enough to put a TINY little micro leak in the water seal, allowing water into the device. And if that happens, bye bye device, bye bye warranty.
I've never understood people who take their phone into the shower to be honest.
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It's be to be able to change songs in the shower. That's my only usage

Paradoxxx said:
It's be to be able to change songs in the shower. That's my only usage
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U can use in shower yes.
But maybe Touch dont work.
You have to remap your Volume Buttons (e.g. long press for next song)

Xperience Z said:
U can use in shower yes.
But maybe Touch dont work.
You have to remap your Volume Buttons (e.g. long press for next song)
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I have Bixby remapped to skip to next song. I wouldn't even turn on the screen probably aha. But whatever, it'll stay outside and that's fine as well

Paradoxxx said:
I have Bixby remapped to skip to next song. I wouldn't even turn on the screen probably aha. But whatever, it'll stay outside and that's fine as well
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You could also remap your volume button.
Long press or Double Press to Skip
And you can take it in the shower...no Problem.

Xperience Z said:
You could also remap your volume button.
Long press or Double Press to Skip
And you can take it in the shower...no Problem.
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Did you ever do take it there ?
Cause they mentioned that it should be still water, and there's quite a splash going in a shower

Every day. It's doesn't matter if its splashing water or still water.

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Waterproof After Repair?

My screen has a small scratch. Are there issues with waterproofing after screen repairs?

IF repaired by a samsung AUTHORIZED/CERTIFIED center, the water resistance should be equal, just consider that water resistant is not the same as water proof, the note 8 is just water reistant as per IP68 standard

I read that water resistant is not on repaired phones by Samsung on here a person was complaining about his repair

I would be very cautious round water if your device has had any hardware repairs done to it. As the water resistance protection may have been weaken or completely damaged during the repairing process.

iceepyon said:
I would be very cautious round water if your device has had any hardware repairs done to it. As the water resistance protection may have been weaken or completely damaged during the repairing process.
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Yes, but the really important fact around the water resistance is, that in the end, Samsung DOES NOT repair/exchange any device damaged by water in any case, they build and test their devices according a strict IP68 standard, As they have no way to verify if a water damaged device was subject to abusive or harsher conditions beyond those stated by IP68, they will refuse warranty
So, the wiser thing to do is, avoid getting your device wet, splashed or submerged, even if never repaired before, it is water resistant, yes, but just in case...
But that is just my opinion

Note 8 user
I've found that the IP68 rating is a formality as the devices internals are built to withstand 200 psi of water for very limited time. Included in my testing I went to the beach and used my phone in the ocean (speaker is not internally water proof and will get soaked or sand internally and will need to dry/ be cleaned out or replaced). Studying the internals of these phones the main issue with waterproofing is the cleanliness and age of the O-rings as well as the quality of aftermarket screen/ adhesive. There is no reason why any repair shop that does a good job would make an originally water proof phone leak while using Samsung manufactured or supplied parts.

Question how long can stay underwater the phone?

Hello,
I am thinking to purchase it, and I was wondering how long can stay underwater.

luckypiglive said:
Hello,
I am thinking to purchase it, and I was wondering how long can stay underwater.
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Years, maybe centuries
Who knows!

Depends, do you want it to work afterwards?
But seriously, the S21 series is IP68 certified. That means that it will survive in 1.5 meters of water for at least 30 minutes.
Someone tested their S21 in a fish tank (so, less than 1.5 meters) and it lasted for 15 days before dying.

bitpushr said:
Depends, do you want it to work afterwards?
But seriously, the S21 series is IP68 certified. That means that it will survive in 1.5 meters of water for at least 30 minutes.
Someone tested their S21 in a fish tank (so, less than 1.5 meters) and it lasted for 15 days before dying.
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yes, ofcource, I live in an island and occasionally I work on a boat as part time, and I want to take pictures in the water or on the boat and I must be sure that even if it sinks for some time or I drop it that will survive.
Lol it lasted 15 days? I wont sink it for so long.

luckypiglive said:
Hello,
I am thinking to purchase it, and I was wondering how long can stay underwater.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How long is a piece of string? answer follows below...
One point rarely discussed is what KIND of water?
IP68 certification testing is conducted using clear water with no contaminants or additives.
Submerged in drinking water or in a river and the phone will most likely match or exceed the IP68 ratings.
Sea water (salty), swimming pools (chlorine) or water containing soap/detergent/chemicals.... that is a totally different scenario and even short exposure could shorten lifetime of the device... even if effects are not immediately noticable on the day.
Finally, I read somewhere that IP68 ratings are for a NEW device. Rubber-seals etc will degrade over time so a whereas a new device should survive 30 minutes in up to 3m of water, repeating the test in 12 months, perhaps 10 minutes submerged in clear water could cause irreperable damage.

dezborders said:
How long is a piece of string? answer follows below...
One point rarely discussed is what KIND of water?
IP68 certification testing is conducted using clear water with no contaminants or additives.
Submerged in drinking water or in a river and the phone will most likely match or exceed the IP68 ratings.
Sea water (salty), swimming pools (chlorine) or water containing soap/detergent/chemicals.... that is a totally different scenario and even short exposure could shorten lifetime of the device... even if effects are not immediately noticable on the day.
Finally, I read somewhere that IP68 ratings are for a NEW device. Rubber-seals etc will degrade over time so a whereas a new device should survive 30 minutes in up to 3m of water, repeating the test in 12 months, perhaps 10 minutes submerged in clear water could cause irreperable damage.
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Yup these are all good points.
The IP68 certification is only under 1.5M of water. If you are on a boat in the ocean, and it drops to 10M or 15M then there is going to be greater pressure on those seals. Should it be fine? Yes, but it's really luck of the draw at that point.
If you want a phone that is made for the elements find one that is ruggedized and has more water protection - these are usually bulkier. Or, use a case which should add some water protection to it.
These are high technology electronic devices, which don't usually play well with water.

DO NOT USE THE PHONE UNDER WATER!
Unless money means nothing to you because you own too much land on the island you live. lol
The phone is made to survive in water if an accident happens. But using a 1300 euro phone for water pics is just a bad idea. Especially in sea water.
Get a go pro or something and enjoy a worry free adventure.

The only question you need to ask yourself is when it goes in the water, and does not survive is if you can/want to afford to replace it?
Water damage is NOT covered under warranty, regardless of rating.

luckypiglive said:
Hello,
I am thinking to purchase it, and I was wondering how long can stay underwater.
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Click to collapse
30 minutes but that's 30 minutes longer than the warranty allows. They say the phone can be submerged but the warranty does not cover it. Every phone out there that can be submerged also comes with the caveat it should not be.

I use mine all the time underwater to record video in my pond and when snorkeling in saltwater. I've never had an issue on this one or any other S lines.

I have used it a couple of times underwater but they state water RESISTANT. They ship it tested as water-resistant so if the moisture sticker is triggered they will state the phone has suffered damage to its integrity and not covered by warranty. They do not recommend you use it underwater and they do not state It is waterproof.
If I was going to use it underwater more often I'd probably get one of those zip bags for using pone underwater.

lywyn said:
I have used it a couple of times underwater but they state water RESISTANT. They ship it tested as water-resistant so if the moisture sticker is triggered they will state the phone has suffered damage to its integrity and not covered by warranty. They do not recommend you use it underwater and they do not state It is waterproof.
If I was going to use it underwater more often I'd probably get one of those zip bags for using pone underwater.
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ohhh thanks! I didn't think about it!