Related
Most people here probably knows that the higher the CPU clock speed is, the higher voltage the phone needs. Which means higher clock speed results to more battery consumption. This is very simple logic, and sure, in real life practice this theory is proven to be true.
One method that is usually used to gain better performance while not necessarily waste more battery is by overclocking and in the same time undervolting. Because there obviously is a certain level of voltage needed to run a certain clock speed, the normal practice is reducing the voltage level to a bare minimum level where the CPU can still run alright while raising the highest clock speed possible. Reducing the voltage too low usually leads the phone to shut off because there isn't enough voltage for the phone to run.
By following the theories above, we can conclude that to achieve the best performance while still considering battery life, adjusting the proper OC and UV level is needed. This is obviously only talking about hardware affecting tweaks.
We now know that the main factor affecting the overall performance vs battery life turns to be the clock speed itself. Now here comes the ultimate questions.
1) How does the phone handle its clockspeed?
2) Does the voltage level change according to; a) the current clock speed the phone is running at, or b) the highest clock speed set/allowed the CPU to go?
3) Does the highest clock speed set (OC) leads to necessary higher voltage, or does the voltage accostumize itself to the running CPU level?
The most logical answer to number 1 would be that the CPU changes its clock speed according to whatever is happening and needs to be done to achieve the best performance. So the clock speed will go up when there's lots of tasks, and go down again when there's little or nothing to do.
Number 2 and 3 I can't explain, but I hope after someone with enough knowledge explains how voltage level works, we can have an answer to the following case;
IF two same phones clocked differently, one at 1ghz and the other at 1.5ghz run the the same relatively simple task for a long time, will the lower clocked one noticeably save/waste more battery than the other one? Or will they consume the same amount of battery because they would most likely be running at the same clock speed (say, at 200 ~ 600)?
Hopefully we'll have a better insight about overclocking vs undervolting
silentmelodies said:
Now here comes the ultimate questions.
1) How does the phone handle its clockspeed?
2) Does the voltage level change according to; a) the current clock speed the phone is running at, or b) the highest clock speed set/allowed the CPU to go?
3) Does the highest clock speed set (OC) leads to necessary higher voltage, or does the voltage accostumize itself to the running CPU level?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe one would have to set each speed & undervolt up together if one scales the speed. I just run mine straight up at 1300MHz/1325mV all the time & set up profiles for screen off, charging, etc. I get wonderful speed & battery life.
Example:
1300MHz/1325mV
1200MHz/1275mV
1000MHz/1175mV
/800/MHz/1125mV
etc.
Each phone is different due to the variations in manufacturing.
The only way to really optimise your phone is to try all of the various settings and combinations of voltage/speed.
Set the phone to a given speed, stress test and try decreasing the voltage until you get crashes / errors. Then raise the voltage one level (or 2 if you are a bit paranoid) and that is the stable voltage for that speed.
Rinse and repeat for all other speeds...
Then set profiles in setcpu / pimpmycpu accordingly.
Job done.
---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------
countrycoyote said:
I believe one would have to set each speed & undervolt up together if one scales the speed. I just run mine straight up at 1300MHz/1325mV all the time & set up profiles for screen off, charging, etc. I get wonderful speed & battery life.
Example:
1300MHz/1325mV
1200MHz/1275mV
1000MHz/1175mV
/800/MHz/1125mV
etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you could lower your voltages quite a bit - eg Mine runs at 1.4GHz at 1.2V
Ok my friend... so... having designed a circuit for a mobile phone myself, I'll try to explain quickly what's the deal (tradeoff) between frequency and voltage.
A CPU/GPU basically is made out of MOSFET's (transistors). Lots of them! They act like capacitors. They have to be turned on and off. At a certain frequency. So, basically they are capacitors being filled and emptied at a certain frequency.
In practice, a capacitor being filled and emptied at a high enough frequency can be seen as a resistor. A variable resistor in fact, as you can see (more or less) here:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_1.html
The thing is, the higher the frequency, the lower the equivalent resistance, because the amount of current keeps getting higher and higher. If the current value gets high enough the very tracks (you can think of them as wires) from the battery to the transistors start having a considerable drop in voltage (the resistance in these wires is supposed to be very low but it's not zero!). And if you have to much voltage drop on the wires the transistors don't get enough voltage to turn on/off.
So there you have it! That's the problem with overclocking. Voltage drop at the tracks (wires) because of increased current. You may also run into heat issues
Now, trying to answer your question, even at the same clock frequency a CPU that is processing stuff will use more energy than one that isn't "doing anything", because transistors aren't really changing state. But a CPU not doing anything at a lower clock frequency will waste less energy than another one not doing anything at a higher clock frequency, because energy is required to drive the clocking circuit itself. So it's very non-linear, you get the picture I hope
LarsPT said:
Now, trying to answer your question, even at the same clock frequency a CPU that is processing stuff will use more energy than one that isn't "doing anything", because transistors aren't really changing state. But a CPU not doing anything at a lower clock frequency will waste less energy than another one not doing anything at a higher clock frequency, because energy is required to drive the clocking circuit itself. So it's very non-linear, you get the picture I hope
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you for the detailed explanation!
silentmelodies said:
This. This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you for the detailed explanation!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're welcome!
Also, to complete the answer a bit more, lower voltage also helps with getting less energy consumption, because it takes more charge to "fill" a capacitor to, let's say, 1.3 V than to 1.1 V.
I'm sure this has been addressed already, but it seems to me that higher clock speeds could be ascertained through the use of modulation of the cores. By setting three cores with a full on/off modulation and alternating a single core to push data through the bus cache allowing data to stream unabated through the cores. In theory temperatures should remained in check through the use of proper modulation in much the same way high powered diodes are made to keep from burning. I'm sure through more optimized prefetching and possibly a background running defrag script, data transfer could made even more efficient.
prestige777 said:
I'm sure this has been addressed already...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course. I was just discussing this with my elderly grandmother as we planted tulip bulbs together in the garden. We decided it was probably way too much trouble for little to no actualized benefit.
prestige777 said:
I'm sure this has been addressed already, but it seems to me that higher clock speeds could be ascertained through the use of modulation of the cores. By setting three cores with a full on/off modulation and alternating a single core to push data through the bus cache allowing data to stream unabated through the cores. In theory temperatures should remained in check through the use of proper modulation in much the same way high powered diodes are made to keep from burning. I'm sure through more optimized prefetching and possibly a background running defrag script, data transfer could made even more efficient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually since there are five cores four of them could be modulated. For people who have no clue. The benefits of this would be twice the clock speed at the same or similar power of the stock speed. For example a processor running for one minute at 2600mhz modulation would use the same power as one running at 1300mhz non modulated with the same usage. This is because the processor running at 2600mhz is only on 50% of the time or for 30 seconds despite moving data for one full minute. By alternating cores you allow data to flow uninterrupted which would accentually make this act like a single core processor but at double the clock speeds.
When I bought Xperia T, after a while, I started to be a little disappointed with performance, autobrightness, discharging when playing, etc.
After some digging deeper into this problem, I have found, that cpu is throttled by temperature. And not only the cpu.
A few minutes of playing game, cpu goes to 800MHz, display brightness goes to level 100 (max. is 255), wall charger current is reduced (even when connected, it is discharging), radio power is reduced, etc.
Change it yourself:
Example:
xo_therm 14 -1000 380 20 NOTIFY CAM_NORMAL cpu_perflevel:1728000 charge_current_limit:0 usb_current_limit:1 modem_level0 lcd_brightnesslevel:240
xo_therm 14 = sensor step
-1000 = -100,0°C
380 = 38,0°C
20 = don't know (maybe some kind of sample rate?)
NOTIFY CAM_NORMAL = obvious (camera)
cpu_perflevel:1728000 = cpu frequency
charge_current_limit:0 = obvious (0 is 1300mA I think, 1 is 1100mA, 2 is 900mA, etc.)
usb_current_limit:1 = obvious (has impact on charging too)
modem_level0 = power of modem
lcd_brightnesslevel:240 = obvious (0 - 255)
Set the highest temperatures, with low enough frequencies and charging current values, to let phone cool down.
"gpu_perflevel" can be used too and there are some other thermal sensors in sysmon.cfg, which are also responsible for thermal throttling.
Disclaimer:
Each device is different and I am not responsible, if your device burns with some values from here.
Both CPU cores always on:
Echo 1 in /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu1/online and change permissions to 444. And if you want to prevent errors from log (and maybe some unwanted wake locks), rename /system/bin/mpdecision to something else or delete it.
what is temp at what cpu throttles (and other things)?
seems it is lower than other devices, something like 40C, i think my sgs3s was at 76C or similar.. not sure, will check later.
sgs3 was a very hot phone.
Sent from my Xperia T
You can see the temperatures in sysmon.cfg - xo_therm 400 500 = 40 - 50°C for example. Cpu temperature, not battery. There is no tool to monitor cpu temperature, but if you set your own frequencies, you can see with Cool Tool, how long it takes to the lowest frequency.
peetr_ said:
You can see the temperatures in sysmon.cfg - xo_therm 400 500 = 40 - 50°C for example. Cpu temperature, not battery. There is no tool to monitor cpu temperature, but if you set your own frequencies, you can see with Cool Tool, how long it takes to the lowest frequency.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks, will check. i am on cm10 and didn't notice throttling yet, but i will check now as it is ****ty if so.
Sent from my Xperia T
I have noticed the throttling but it doesn't affect the performance in my case, playing games and watching HD video are fine, just annoying when the screen suddenly does dim.
Sent from my LT30p using xda premium
@OP:
If you don't want throttling, uninstall Androids inbuilt Thermal monitor(No need to tell you the risk by doing that I guess).
Thanks for you valuable advice.
Don't think it would help as that file says 2nd core off values are hardcoded
Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 2
I think, that it works, because I tested it and I am using my own values.
Good thing I won't be playing games when my T will arrive
https://developer.qualcomm.com/mobile-development/development-devices/trepn-profiler
Stay Informed
Trepn Profiler is currently being redesigned. Sign up to be notified when Trepn Profiler is reintroduced.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Still? Damn how long do they take ? -.-
Here is the .apk of the old version. No idea how much works and what doesn't!
Hello,
Could it be some kind of default on your device ? or maybe the application ?
Cause I remember Qualcomm's communicating on their S4 being "cooler" than its opponents when under heavy load.
Can someone else confirm ?
What's strange is that the game you mention (Osmos HD, which I bought some time ago for my TF101) does not even use super high end 3D graphics etc etc ... maybe the perf drop could come much quicker with some cpu/gpu intensive apps.
If confirmed, it might even become a big "no go" on this phone for me.
Nickola
nickola said:
Hello,
Could it be some kind of default on your device ? or maybe the application ?
Cause I remember Qualcomm's communicating on their S4 being "cooler" than its opponents when under heavy load.
Can someone else confirm ?
What's strange is that the game you mention (Osmos HD, which I bought some time ago for my TF101) does not even use super high end 3D graphics etc etc ... maybe the perf drop could come much quicker with some cpu/gpu intensive apps.
If confirmed, it might even become a big "no go" on this phone for me.
Nickola
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've had this phone for a while now and I haven't had a bit of lag while playing any game I have. Everything seems fine except the sudden dimming of the screen when playing games. Don't let this put you off buying the phone, its a great phone
Edit: been playing Osmos HD for at least 25 minutes, I'm experiencing no such lag or performance issue. Only the dimming issue I seem to get.
Well, after some more investigation, I have found, that lags in Osmos HD are not caused by cpu throttling, but wifi disconnecting.
Playing the game is fine, but still, with default settings the temperature is going high and except the screen dimming, cpu goes to 800MHz, (1 core disabled on highest temperature), and phone is discharging even when connected to wall charger.
It seems to me, that the overheating is not caused that much by cpu, but gpu. It would be nice, if it could be tested somehow by lowering the frequency of gpu.
I wonder if the heating issues could be fixed with software patches. Given Sony's desire to incorporate playstation stuff, I find it hard to believe there is some sort of hardware issue.
Wish we could get some more samples to work with.
Sent from my HTC_Flyer_P512_NA using xda app-developers app
Just measured with my settings (in the room - about 23°C):
10 minutes of playing Osmos HD without charging = 62°C CPU temp
With one core running on 1350 MHz and LCD brightness value 150, it's not increasing anymore.
When charging, the temperature will go higher. I will test it too.
peetr_ said:
Just measured with my settings (in the room - about 23°C):
10 minutes of playing Osmos HD without charging = 62°C CPU temp
With one core running on 1350 MHz and LCD brightness value 150, it's not increasing anymore.
When charging, the temperature will go higher. I will test it too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried treppn profiler?
Anandtech says a CPU core draws around 450-750mW while gpu goes 800-1200mW!
Seems like 400mhz is a hard Task for an 225.
If you are still on ics maybe try jellybean? Perhaps project butter may more efficiently handle the gpu.
Maybe even make a list of "stress test" for people to try and see what the various results are.
If all else fails try undervolting the gpu and cpu.
Sent from my HTC_Flyer_P512_NA using xda app-developers app
Haldi4803 said:
Have you tried treppn profiler?
Anandtech says a CPU core draws around 450-750mW while gpu goes 800-1200mW!
Seems like 400mhz is a hard Task for an 225.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I tried trpn profiler provided by you, but there are limited options.
It looks like the GPU cannot handle this frequency.
Undervolting won't help anything, but lowering GPU frequency would help I guess. But this cannot be done without custom kernel, allowing this.
LegibleEel said:
I've had this phone for a while now and I haven't had a bit of lag while playing any game I have. Everything seems fine except the sudden dimming of the screen when playing games. Don't let this put you off buying the phone, its a great phone
Edit: been playing Osmos HD for at least 25 minutes, I'm experiencing no such lag or performance issue. Only the dimming issue I seem to get.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. I've been playing Speedball 2 and GTA3 mainly but I have played a few others too and haven't experienced any lag and no performance issues observed at all.
i heard that the huawei p9 has their unique overheat protection feature which if the phone gets hot the phone will lower its performance level. is there any way to disable this, my phone gets slow even if its not that hot. i cant play games for too long because it lags after a few mins of playing. i hope huawei makes this feature optional
rhaegon36 said:
i heard that the huawei p9 has their unique overheat protection feature which if the phone gets hot the phone will lower its performance level. is there any way to disable this, my phone gets slow even if its not that hot. i cant play games for too long because it lags after a few mins of playing. i hope huawei makes this feature optional
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not a unique feature of the P9, all the CPUs (meaning Desktops computers, Laptops computers, Phones, Tablets, etc.) and also all GPUs (Nvidia cards, AMD cards, MALI, Rouge, etc.), but in general all electronic components will lower their performance if they get too hot. This is called "Thermal Throttling". All components have a maximum working temperature, if you get close to that temperature you might experience glitches or artifacts, nothing permanent, but if you get past the Maximum temperature, you will experience heavy glitching and artifacting, crashes and heavy instability of the system, causing permanent damage too.
So to answer your question, no, you cannot disable the overheating safety feature, and there will also won't be an implementation of a switch for this feature, simply because it would kill your device.
The only solution is to better cool the phone, or reduce the heat, the first is not really a great solution, the second one would require downvolting/downclocking both the CPU and GPU, both of which require a Custom Kernel. As of right now, there are none, so you are stuck the way you are.
noki57oo said:
Its not a unique feature of the P9, all the CPUs (meaning Desktops computers, Laptops computers, Phones, Tablets, etc.) and also all GPUs (Nvidia cards, AMD cards, MALI, Rouge, etc.), but in general all electronic components will lower their performance if they get too hot. This is called "Thermal Throttling". All components have a maximum working temperature, if you get close to that temperature you might experience glitches or artifacts, nothing permanent, but if you get past the Maximum temperature, you will experience heavy glitching and artifacting, crashes and heavy instability of the system, causing permanent damage too.
So to answer your question, no, you cannot disable the overheating safety feature, and there will also won't be an implementation of a switch for this feature, simply because it would kill your device.
The only solution is to better cool the phone, or reduce the heat, the first is not really a great solution, the second one would require downvolting/downclocking both the CPU and GPU, both of which require a Custom Kernel. As of right now, there are none, so you are stuck the way you are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you for your response, but my p9 antutu benchmark score is 99k to 65k real quick when performing the 2nd try. isnt that too much? btw when i downclock my phone does it reduce the overheating but still give the same performance?
rhaegon36 said:
thank you for your response, but my p9 antutu benchmark score is 99k to 65k real quick when performing the 2nd try. isnt that too much? btw when i downclock my phone does it reduce the overheating but still give the same performance?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that is a huge drop, but mine behaves similarly. When you downclock your phone you reduce the clock of the processor, which means it needs less electricity to work, which also means that it generates less heat. But reducing the clock of the processor means reducing its performance too, so no, it wouldn't keep the same performance.
noki57oo said:
Yes, that is a huge drop, but mine behaves similarly. When you downclock your phone you reduce the clock of the processor, which means it needs less electricity to work, which also means that it generates less heat. But reducing the clock of the processor means reducing its performance too, so no, it wouldn't keep the same performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i havent seen any phone that lowers its brightness when overheating, but the p9 does this and then lowers its performance sometimes even if my phone isnt that hot, it looks like a feature to me but im not sure, i hope that this is really a feature cuz if it is, theres a chance to fix it
Most of your know about this problem. People complaining about phone heating, phone shuts down in the middle of gaming, heating while gaming with 90hz in all forums. But no one come up with the solution and Some even told us to send the phone to get serviced [yeah, but even then the service center will say that it is motherboard fault, which is the costliest replacement of all around 25k INR]
[NOTE: I want this to be heard by ASUS to release software update. If you are a moderator of any Asus forum or who could contact ASUS dev, share this thread with them]
First and foremost we have to understand what is causing the problem. And everyone who is facing the problem knows Its the Temperature causing the shutdown. But ASUS never implemented any Warnings to to the UI, instead they give active cooler to 256+ GB version, while leaving 128 GB owners stranded. I faced the shut down problem when updating to A10 around a year back.
Every time when I game outdoor on warm condition (around 30 degrees) and After few months of updates, it started to shut down very frequently. So I switched back and forth to custom ROMs and even to stock A9s.
Faced the worst embarrassment "Gaming phone shuts down in front of cousins who were playing in budget phone"
Finally my Gaming phone become a phone which cant game anymore.
Finding the real Problem:
After researching about android thermals and I even tried to stop the shutdown from happening to my device. But I failed and my device successfully shuts down when there is a chance.
I switched to custom rom and installed GCAM. On taking few photos, my phone died. After restarting and enabling the CPU overlay which shown the temperature and clock speed of CPU. Opened GCAM and took some photos the temperature rose from 40-65 degrees in an instant and it died and I noted all the CPU cores are ran at max clockspeed.
So, I switched back to stock rom, used Armoury crate to limit and limited the CPU clock speed of GCAM, Again same result phone died (like the custom rom Armoury crate displayed the max clock speed of 2.96 Ghz, though the app was being set to use lower clock of 1.92 Ghz)
After using and failing to limit CPU clock using kernels, It was conclusive that the temperature is not causing the issue, "NO_THROTTLING" of CPU does.
During heavy load on CPU like gaming or benchmarking, all CPU cores will run at high clock speed, which increases the temperature of CPU. To counterfeit this, the system applies slightly lower max clock speed to all its cores, makes the CPU to run at slightly lower clock speed. As the temperature increases the max clock speed will get reduced till it can no longer produces heat (auto cooldown) on doing work. Same applies for GPU. This is called throttling.
What will happen, when throttling doesn't happen? All CPU and GPU cores run at max speed which increase the temperature, when there is nothing to stop the rising temperature. The temperature rises further [A10's thermal management kicks in] and shuts the device.
During charging, the CPU temperature will be higher due to battery dissipating the heat, so when there is even slight load on CPU (background activities like downloading) rapid rise in temperature even for few milliseconds kills device.
Maybe none of the testing devices have this problem & none of the developer devices have this problem, but this problem does exist and I'm asking ASUS to release the patch for devices which lacks controlling CPU clock speed via Armoury create, and fix the device which doesn't throttle (thermal engine)
-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
Temporary Solution: Manually down clock the CPU and GPU
After so many failed attempt to apply lower clock to CPU, I found the location where the max clock speed file was located.
[I modified the file and put together in tasker (paid app to automate things) found my CPU finally throttled again]
I shared the values taken from asus thermal management applied those values and uploaded it.
Be careful, This might brick your device if used improperly, if that happens you might need to flash raw image so backup anything important. Don't point me the finger afterwards. If you are okay with that lets proceed.
We Need root access and root browser. If you have root access open any root browser and Extract the attached zip file
It has two folders and some files. CPU Reading folder has all the CPU max clock speed you can use to apply lower clock.
the folder contains 9 digit number like 295241178
First 3 number denotes max clock speed of Prime core i.e., 2.96Ghz
Next 3 numbers denotes max clock speed of Big core i.e., 2.4Ghz
Last 3 number denotes max clock speed of little core i.e., 1.78Ghz
for GPU First 3 number is the MHz of max clock (6750 is 675 MHz)
Select the clock speed you need
(lower number = lower clock speed = low performance = less heating
Higher number = high clock speed = better performance = more heating)
CPU has 9 different clock speed littleBigPrime combos
Gpu has 5 different combos
Applying clock speed
Replace the CPU file cpu_max_freq to the folder /sys/module/msm_performance/parameters
Replace the Gpu file max_gpuclk value to the folder /sys/devices/platform/soc/2c00000.qcom,kgsl-3d0/kgsl/kgsl-3d0
Replace those files and see if your device shuts down on gaming, if it does choose the lower value and repeat the process.
Everything should work properly now. It might not be great solution but it will prevent shutdown.
-x-x--x-x-x--x-x--x-x-x-x--x-x--x-x-x-x--x-x-x-x-x--x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x--x-x-x-x-x-x--x-x-x-x-x--x-x-x-x-x-
Im creating an app to solve this, which is in progress. Will update once everything is done.
por favor, preciso deste aplicatirvo!
venkatesh321 said:
Im creating an app to solve this, which is in progress. Will update once everything is done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you done making the app, cuz i really need it rn
its power ic related issue. throttling app is reducing the performance