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Hello,
I'd like to build an AA-battery pack for loading my diamond on the go. (I know there are LiIo-packages on the market with high capacity, but I prefer standard AA-cells)
I've built one for my Loox 720 a few years ago but had the problem, that loading was terminated after the voltage of the package dropped slightly below 5V. It is not so easy to build a package with a standard voltage-converter because of voltage-dropping with too few cells or heat-production with too much cells.
But perhaps the diamond continues loading, even when the voltage drops by - for example 1V, so this would not be an issue anymore.
Sadly, I'am not a specialist on this things and even if the Diamond can handle lower voltage I'am not sure if it can probably do harm to the LiIon-Battery or the electronics within the diamond - don't know, if this is possible with too low voltages.
Perhaps somenone can help - I think a working AA-package for the diamond could be of interrest for other users.
Many thanks in advance!
Regards:
Token42
Take a look at the USB Charging Spec - available here - it clearly defines the operating limits that devices (and chargers) should comply with.
In your case your device would be acting as a dedicated charger (you should put a 200ohmn resistor across the data lines to tell the Diamond that's what you are) and so you should aim for >4.75v for charging currents <0.5A and >2.0v for currents >0.5A. The Diamond will control the current draw and given you're using a battery you have no control over the stability of the minimum voltage - the voltage/capacity curve will be dependent on the type of battery.
Assuming the Diamond is compliant with this spec then it be happy working within the above tolerances. Indeed, in practice you may find it will work beyond them (the charging is controlled within the device hence it can refuse to charge if it is out of spec).
Mathew
MJNewton said:
Take a look at the USB Charging Spec - available here - it clearly defines the operating limits that devices (and chargers) should comply with.
In your case your device would be acting as a dedicated charger (you should put a 200ohmn resistor across the data lines to tell the Diamond that's what you are) and so you should aim for >4.75v for charging currents <0.5A and >2.0v for currents >0.5A. The Diamond will control the current draw and given you're using a battery you have no control over the stability of the minimum voltage - the voltage/capacity curve will be dependent on the type of battery.
Assuming the Diamond is compliant with this spec then it be happy working within the above tolerances. Indeed, in practice you may find it will work beyond them (the charging is controlled within the device hence it can refuse to charge if it is out of spec).
Mathew
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Many thanks Mathew! This sounds good - if I've understood you correctly I can use lower voltage with batteries able to output high currents. Even "normal" AA-cells should be able to output much more than 0,5A - this seems to be only relevant for USB-ports, so I should be able to go as low as 2V and I'am out of problems. In this case I even not have to build an adapter by myself but can use any cheap "emergency-loader" from shops. (If the resistor should be neccessary, I can add it to the package)
Do you mean, the shop-packages have this resistor built in allready, and can it be dangerous for the device without it?
p.s.: Sorry - I've allways said "loader" - I mean "charger", of course.
Token42 said:
Many thanks Mathew! This sounds good - if I've understood you correctly I can use lower voltage with batteries able to output high currents.
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In theory, yes, at least to stay within spec. However, the Diamond might not be as tolerant as the spec demands/allows so it's more a case of suck it and see.
Even "normal" AA-cells should be able to output much more than 0,5v
- this seems to be only relevant for USB-ports, so I should be able to go as low as 2V and I'am out of problems.
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For the spec, yes (although I'm not sure what you mean about USB ports - you are one as far as the Diamond is concerned) however the Diamond battery is 3.7v and, assuming no DC-DC converter, you'll have to stay above that to get any decent rate of charge.
If you are using alkaline batteries then you pay the price with a sloping discharge curve - the voltage drops almost linearly with consumption. This is why lithium batteries are being used in such charger packs because their voltage remains relatively flat and they have a high capacity. Rechargeable NiMH cells would also be a good choice, particularly at higher charging currents.
Edit: They say a picture speaks a thousand words - here are some discharge curves so you can see for yourself.
In this case I even not have to build an adapter by myself but can use any cheap "emergency-loader" from shops.
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To be honest I'd just buy a ready-made one anyway! Ideally one with a voltage regulator inside it so you can load it with practically any batteries you like.
Mathew
MJNewton said:
To be honest I'd just buy a ready-made one anyway!
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Yes of course - in this case it is the wisest thing to do - particulary for me.
The reason for me to build my own one for the loox was, that the stock one did not work, (or only for a few minutes, because the loox seems to be very pedantic with the voltage). I have to admit that my own one did not worked too, cause of to much heat-production of the converter.
Seems to be a lot easier with the diamond.
Thanks again!
Why not strip down a car charger and add a few AA cells, all the electronics are already there, I'm pretty sure you could use a variety of old phone car chargers, why not check your drawers.
uniqueboy said:
Why not strip down a car charger and add a few AA cells, all the electronics are already there, I'm pretty sure you could use a variety of old phone car chargers, why not check your drawers.
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If the diamond really accepts voltages between 3,6 and 5V a car-charger is not neccessary and very ineffective. A pack with 4*AA NIMH would be enough.
Regarding my Loox: I would need at least 10*AA, about 6 of them only to feed the charger. And the problem with voltage-drop is not solved.
How efficient is the charging process? I mean if you charge a 900mah lion battery with a 1.5ah nimh battery will it do it, I thought about 90% of the energy you put in is lost in the internal chemistry, which wouldn't give you more than about a 15% charge.
uniqueboy said:
How efficient is the charging process? I mean if you charge a 900mah lion battery with a 1.5ah nimh battery will it do it, I thought about 90% of the energy you put in is lost in the internal chemistry, which wouldn't give you more than about a 15% charge.
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Good NIMH-batteries have 2000mAh or more. If you use a LiIon-charger you have the same probs with internal chemistry. If one would loose 90%, no one would by any type of external charger. If you mean the chemistry of the AA's, no one would buy AA's anymore.
With a 2000mAh AA-pack, I think you get about the same charging-result as with a 2000mAh LiIon-charger. But you can put into the AA-pack batterys out of any supermarket in the world.
Token42 said:
Good NIMH-batteries have 2000mAh or more. If you use a LiIon-charger you have the same probs with internal chemistry. If one would loose 90%, no one would by any type of external charger. If you mean the chemistry of the AA's, no one would buy AA's anymore.
With a 2000mAh AA-pack, I think you get about the same charging-result as with a 2000mAh LiIon-charger. But you can put into the AA-pack batterys out of any supermarket in the world.
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And get what charge% from 0 could you get?, I'm suggesting you would need heavier duty D cells or more to get a full charge, you don't get out anywhere near what you put in.
uniqueboy said:
And get what charge% from 0 could you get?, I'm suggesting you would need heavier duty D cells or more to get a full charge, you don't get out anywhere near what you put in.
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Youre right, of course - it's not very effective, but not (or not much) less effective than a same size LiIon-package. Probably its only a personal habbit of me to prefere AA-cells. My first PDA was a Psion 3c, the second a Palm-derivate. I liked it very much, to be able to put any AA-cells into this devices.
Most effective way is to swap the device-battery - its my oppinion too. But as long as you can't find LiIon-packs in differnt standard-formats for every device everywhere and they are not building wall-plugs into trees, I find it somewhat nice to have the ability to use AA's or A's.
LiIon have better charging/dicharging-capabilitys and are lighter and smaller, but this does not mean normal standard-cells are totaly crap in comparison, they have developed too.
I would recommend it, when not every device on the market would use LiIon-Batts, perhaps even not swappable - not every device has to be ultra light and ultra small, for me it does not matter so much, if an external charger is somewhat bigger and heavier, if it gives me much more flexibility and is cheaper in long-term usage.
This is for kernel devs only. The patch itself is useless to those who do not/can not compile their own kernel.
This patch allows one to force AC or USB charging for any charger. It also provides additional security when connecting to public charging stations because with either force AC or force USB mode on, USB transfers are disabled, protecting your data.
Fast charge can be toggled by issuing:
echo 1 > /sys/kernel/fast_charge/force_charge_mode
Slow charge:
echo 2 > /sys/kernel/fast_charge/force_charge_mode
and off:
echo 0 > /sys/kernel/fast_charge/force_charge_mode
Plug your phone into the charger AFTER toggling the desired mode.
In addition I have created a toggle fast charge widget that may be used to toggle fast/slow charge on and off right from your home screen:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.incredicontrol.fastchargewidget
I have not yet implemented the three way toggle into incredicontrol (free), but I will be. I have to change it to support slow charge also and haven't yet gotten the chance to. I will be implementing it when I get the chance though so you guys have a convenient free way to toggle also.
For the widget (or any fast/slow charge toggle) to work, you MUST be running a kernel that has this patch implemented.
As a good gesture to support a fellow dev, I ask that if you implement the patch into your kernel, please link to my widget as one means to toggle it. You are of course free to provide other ways to toggle it as well if you so desire.
Kernel devs, if you would like to test the widget yourself to confirm its working, and for convenience of testing, please contact me and I will provide you with a copy. You must show that you are a kernel dev though (i.e. link me to your kernel post so I can match your username).
Good luck have fun!
http://www.incredikernel.com/wp-con...r/download.php?id=o2x_force_fast_charge.patch
Here is the neoblaze kernel (stock froyo/gb, not AOSP) patched with the mod so that you guys can test. I will not be supporting anything regarding this kernel except the charging mod itself!
http://chad0989.dyndns.org/mirror/o2x_fastcharge_test_neoblaze2.zip
Sounds interesting even though i dont own a car!
langhaardack said:
Sounds interesting even though i dont own a car!
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Its not necessarily just for car chargers, that's just the easiest example. It can be used with any charger that is detected as USB. Some powered hubs for example can easily put out 1A but would still be limited to 500mA by the phone. The patch will allow you to toggle force AC mode on/off via an app or widget.
Ya i got that but the only usb-charger besides the outlet that i use is my laptop, and i use it only for transferring files. still a great idea!
In other words. If you will be using USB port and cable as current source, The specification asks for Data + and - to be shortcut. And normally phone detects it and also the fifth sense pin and then high current charging must kick in. (although our LG phone uses also it to enter download mode)
If you use the widget and enable high current charging, you'll fry out your motherboards USB port probably...
Another warning. If someone has read about Lithium Cell charging methods AVR based documentation for example. Such high current charging decreases your battery cycle life. So consider those facts first of all!
And those with car chargers... especially cheap ones... in most of these devices are SMD LM317 or LM7805 etc family inside... it will dissipate [email protected]=7W so these sticks will fry out and also blow up despite it can deliver 1.5A - the catch is with proper heat sink.
So So So... dear coders... consult your hardware guys before acting for the good deeds... the cons are more than the gain.
Ferrum Master said:
In other words. If you will be using USB port and cable as current source, The specification asks for Data + and - to be shortcut. And normally phone detects it and also the fifth sense pin and then high current charging must kick in. (although our LG phone uses also it to enter download mode)
If you use the widget and enable high current charging, you'll fry out your motherboards USB port probably...
Another warning. If someone has read about Lithium Cell charging methods AVR based documentation for example. Such high current charging decreases your battery cycle life. So consider those facts first of all!
And those with car chargers... especially cheap ones... in most of these devices are SMD LM317 or LM7805 etc family inside... it will dissipate [email protected]=7W so these sticks will fry out and also blow up despite it can deliver 1.5A - the catch is with proper heat sink.
So So So... dear coders... consult your hardware guys before acting for the good deeds... the cons are more than the gain.
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Absolutely not. It would have no negative effects on your battery at all as the current isn't increased beyond what it is for AC charging.
Also you notice nowhere that my recommendations were for using it to charge from a motherboard. Despite that, the current pulled from the board is ultimately limited to the fuse at the port. Even if a device successfully tries to pull more than the board can provide (which the board won't put out anyway), the PPTC will cut off power to the device.
So So dear hardware guys, please read before jumping all over someone.
chad0989 said:
Absolutely not. It would have no negative effects on your battery at all as the current isn't increased beyond what it is for AC charging.
Also you notice nowhere that my recommendations were for using it to charge from a motherboard. Despite that, the current pulled from the board is ultimately limited to the fuse at the port. Even if a device successfully tries to pull more than the board can provide (which the board won't put out anyway), the PPTC will cut off power to the device.
So hardware guy, how about you read before jumping all over something.
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Then please why I have to repair broken motherboards that Ipad2 have fried a lot? Why? Because they are cheap mate, and fuse is the last resort. And No current limitations aren't implemented there...
I said once again. This 0.5A setting is the most green one, as many manufacturer use as a law!
The fact that some make a PR and tell our device charges faster doesn't overthrow simple chemistry and physics. Ok it will work. Charging the cell with higher current, raises temps and other chemical emissions and it deteriorates faster! So the philosophy is simple for them, the user will kill its battery faster in order to buy a new phone eh? Nice!
Ferrum Master said:
Then please why I have to repair broken motherboards that Ipad2 have fried a lot? Why? Because they are cheap mate, and fuse is the last resort. And No current limitations aren't implemented there...
I said once again. This 0.5A setting is the most green one, as many manufacturer use as a law!
The fact that some make a PR and tell our device charges faster doesn't overthrow simple chemistry and physics. Ok it will work. Charging the cell with higher current, raises temps and other chemical emissions and it deteriorates faster! So the philosophy is simple for them, the user will kill its battery faster in order to buy a new phone eh? Nice!
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Click to collapse
I agree with you that it shouldn't be used to charge from a motherboard, although many have taken the risk without issues.
Essentially it is a software version of the charging cables with bridged data lines ("charge only") that many buy and have no issues with. I'm just bridging the data lines in software so to speak. The current draw is never increased beyond the phone's spec. The most important thing is that the end user knows the source they are drawing from is capable of providing the current.
I do appreciate your concern for the community and desire to educate everyone. We need more people like you around.
So with that, each individual can make an informed decision on their own. If anyone is still interested in the mod, shoot me a PM if you want to test.
Yup, there isn't much math to be done here.
Higher current means higher temps, and O2X already has trouble with temps as it is.
However, to each his own, and as long as people are aware of what they're doing there is no such thing as too many options... although me personally I would stay away from this one.
EDIT: Wait... so you're saying that O2X charges at 1A when connected to a wall charger and at 0.5A when connected with USB? I get the point now. So you only risk damaging the motherboard, and not the phone.
I'm guessing it would be more interesting for O2X users to do the opposite! A 'Force USB charging' because from what I see a lot of people get SoD while charging their phones overnight and this might fix it
What do you say Chad? Would you be interested in implementing this feature? I think I would use it!
chad0989 said:
I agree with you that it shouldn't be used to charge from a motherboard, although many have taken the risk without issues.
Essentially it is a software version of the charging cables with bridged data lines ("charge only") that many buy and have no issues with. I'm just bridging the data lines in software so to speak. The current draw is never increased beyond the phone's spec. The most important thing is that the end user knows the source they are drawing from is capable of providing the current.
I do appreciate your concern for the community and desire to educate everyone. We need more people like you around.
So with that, I guess each individual can make an informed decision on their own. If anyone is still interested in the mod, shoot me a PM if you want to try.
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Yes, you have to set up proper warnings! Because there are always American(no offense) like users who will try to dry their own cat in microwave, because it wasn't prohibited in instructions . They will accuse you with headlines - you didn't say... etc - I know it from my personal work.
This is also usefull for my USB 3.0 ports am i right =D??
Sent from my MI-ONE plus using xda premium
LarsPT said:
I'm guessing it would be more interesting for O2X users to do the opposite! A 'Force USB charging' because from what I see a lot of people get SoD while charging their phones overnight and this might fix it
What do you say Chad? Would you be interested in implementing this feature? I think I would use it!
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+1 for force 500mA mode of this would fix the overnight crashing and massive overheat that follows. I don't know if the problem is related to the current level during charging though.
owain94 said:
This is also usefull for my USB 3.0 ports am i right =D??
Sent from my MI-ONE plus using xda premium
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Your are now showing off?
Ferrum Master said:
Your are now showing off?
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Shhhtt :$
Nah just asking
LarsPT said:
I'm guessing it would be more interesting for O2X users to do the opposite! A 'Force USB charging' because from what I see a lot of people get SoD while charging their phones overnight and this might fix it
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Vadonka and spica come here right now!!
OTF pack idea!
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda premium
forcing usb charge mode sounds like a really good idea
Verstuurd van mijn LG-P990 met Tapatalk
For so many years of using rechargeable batteries, I haven't been a fan of post-purchase "fast charging". But then again, I live in a tropical countries so non-air-conditioned room temperatures come quite warm (especially since we're entering summer now).
I must say that I love the "force USB charging" idea though. I rarely get those, but, it's another troubleshooting possibility for the many users encountering charging/overheating BSODs.
salisbury_steak said:
For so many years of using rechargeable batteries, I haven't been a fan of post-purchase "fast charging". But then again, I live in a tropical countries so non-air-conditioned room temperatures come quite warm (especially since we're entering summer now).
I must say that I love the "force USB charging" idea though. I rarely get those, but, it's another troubleshooting possibility for the many users encountering charging/overheating BSODs.
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also if you charge the battery faster the battery life will be worse then if you charge it slow
so fast and a bit worse battery life
or fast it slow and a bit better life
you can really feel those difference if you live in a country where it is quite hot
you can try it yourself
charge one day using wall charger and charge next day using computer usb you will feel the difference
owain94 said:
also if you charge the battery faster the battery life will be worse then if you charge it slow
so fast and a bit worse battery life
or fast it slow and a bit better life
you can really feel those difference if you live in a country where it is quite hot
you can try it yourself
charge one day using wall charger and charge next day using computer usb you will feel the difference
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Jep Owain is right... I remember old times at my work 6 years ago Nokia 8800 (RM-13), it had a tiny battery and it was the time when chargers changed from impulse type from transformer core types... so with the older slow charger the battery held for 15-30% more. (I suppose the battery is hot, and then the voltage is also artificially higher and in reality it isn't charged to its maximum).
But as I said, don't overdose with it especially with car chargers and motherboards. The phone will be fine. Battery should be changed after a year anyway... it costs for me $10 anyway...
Ferrum Master said:
But as I said, don't overdose with it especially with car chargers and motherboards. The phone will be fine. Battery should be changed after a year anyway... it costs for me $10 anyway...
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Lucky guy. The O2X battery costs roughly US$ 30 here.
So you guys are saying you get an SoD if you charge overnight on AC, but not on USB?
Reading through the battery driver it looks to me that if the battery gets too hot, it swiches to USB charge current, if it continues to be too hot, the charger turns off so I wonder if your issue is somewhere else. Anyone try to record a log (cat /proc/kmsg > /sdcard/kmsg) overnight and see if you get any messages along the lines of:
[OVERHEAT]: Change Charger setting to USB mode
or
[OVERHEAT]: Deactive Charger
Hey all,
I've been experimenting with the rear 4-pin connector on the back of the droid 4 (pogo-pins for the inductive charging rear door)
Connected a current limited power supply to Gnd and Vin on the back of my Droid 4 (pin lower right = gnd, pin lower left = Vin) at 5.0V and I had charging occurring at a nice speedy rate. Screen showed charging, amperage was around 1500mA to start scaling down to 1300mA-1100mA as it reached full charge. It seems to pass through the Lithium Ion battery management circuity so appears to be a safe way to dump in lots of power. Obviously these pins are designed to pick up power from the rear inductive charging cover that Motorola produced, but I wanted to try just pure 5.0V power. It appears that it is not bypassing or defeating the battery temp/overcharging safety circuit but of course test at your own will in a safe environment. I personally noted that if the battery was 'warm' the charge rate was reduced to avoid overtemp. Also it would scale down as the on-screen-indicator showed it was reaching full charge.
I’m thinking of grabbing some extra rear covers and making up some drop-in charging stations or alternative inputs (like solar/etc.)
Nice to get away from having to charge on the USB Micro connector which appears to limit charging current and cause wear-and-tear.
This seems like a VERY good thing if someone was building an external battery pack that fit onto the phone (like the one for the iPhone)…you could power it on, charge via this connector, and shut it down whenever you liked. The power draw on the phone drops off massively once it is charged so if you started with a full charge, it could float the battery all the way to empty.
Time to experiment! My first build will likely be a drop-in docking station.
Again, for reference:
Bottom right (when viewing back, camera at the top):
Gnd is Lower Right – Nearest the microUSB connector
Vin is Lower Left – Opposite side from Gnd on the bottom row
Don’t hit it with too much voltage! I limited myself to about 4.8V and 1700mA max. I'd expect over-voltage on these pins could damage the battery management circuity and fry the phone. I was using a good regulated supply with meters.
Cheers,
This is awesome, thanks for this! Might have to play with a cover and done batteries at some point... Please let us all know how your experiments go!
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using xda app-developers app
I like the idea of an expanded battery very useful.
I have a small solar cell + battery to charge my phone by USB already.
That is bad ass. Post some pics of your first prototype
Sent from my DROID4 using xda premium
Great news, thanks for your time, man.
Just wondering but do you know what the other 2 pins are for?
I got one with a broken usb port for parts and am now wondering if I could use this to build a fix.
Most any (not all) Li-ion battery is rated for at least a 1C charge rate. So with a 1785 mAh Li-ion battery you should be able to safely charge at 1785 mA. The trade off is the faster you charge it the more you reduce overall battery life. For example (not real numbers) if the expected life of the battery is 500 charges (a charge is the amount of current to charge the battery from it's nominal voltage to fully charged and has no correlation to how many times you plug it into a charger) then charging it at 0.75C might increase it's life significantly to 750 to 1000 charges.
Note: the stock wall wart is speced at 850 mA at 5.1 V output (very odd that voltage...).
Brandon314159 said:
Nice to get away from having to charge on the USB Micro connector which appears to limit charging current and cause wear-and-tear.
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More likely it's the power supply. Most all PC usb ports put out 500 mA at 5.0 V. Most (USB) wall warts are rated at 1000 mA at 5.0 V.
What has me worried is that the phone appears to overcharge the battery to something like 4.317 V or even 4.351 V... I'm hoping this is just an error in the phone/app voltage reporting, but then again it could just be the way they get that 1785 mAh capacity from the battery. Overcharging the battery in this way could well be safe and would have the effect of increasing it's capacity, but it will significantly reduce it's life as well. You would not expect a Li-ion battery to be charged over 4.2 V and preferably something like 4.17 V
Can you use those pins to directly measure the battery voltage? I was going to measure mine directly to compare with Battery Monitor Widget reporting but decided I didn't want to remove the sticker from the back of the battery and I couldn't get a reading from the push pin contacts.
Quick7135 said:
What has me worried is that the phone appears to overcharge the battery to something like 4.317 V or even 4.351 V... I'm hoping this is just an error in the phone/app voltage reporting, but then again it could just be the way they get that 1785 mAh capacity from the battery. Overcharging the battery in this way could well be safe and would have the effect of increasing it's capacity, but it will significantly reduce it's life as well. You would not expect a Li-ion battery to be charged over 4.2 V and preferably something like 4.17 V
Can you use those pins to directly measure the battery voltage? I was going to measure mine directly to compare with Battery Monitor Widget reporting but decided I didn't want to remove the sticker from the back of the battery and I couldn't get a reading from the push pin contacts.
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- You cannot use those pins to measure battery voltage as they are an input to the charger... IE they do not tie directly to the battery. You would have to watch the battery voltage at the screws for the battery flex-cable mount.
- There are lots of notes about the battery voltage being 'high' by peoples viewpoints. If you search around, someone explains the difference in chemistry that the Droid 4 is using and that it does have a higher Vmax during bulk/absorption charge levels. I believe the summary was that it is a non-issue. They aren't trying to 'cheat' the battery into higher voltage for more cap...it's just simply how that chemistry wants to be charged. You'll have to google around to find it.
I am curious to see what sort of 'external' packs I can come up with and likely would limit my charging rate to 1200mA or so just to keep things 'happy'. I got slapped pretty hard over at droidforums by an admin and my post removed for this same info...glad to see the community here is more accepting of my discoveries. :cyclops:
-Also, the other two pins are data lines...not sure if In/out compatible but one is Batt Temp and the other is Communication (for determining battery type). The phone doesn't like having these pins futzed with (can cause reboots/lockups) so there is clearly something on the other end...but sounds like the protection is weak regarding input into the processor/etc.
Once I have my phone near a camera, I will photo my connection method/mods (no direct soldering in-case I have to warranty the phone for other issues). That gave me 6" pigtails of wire that I have hiding behind my cheap-o case right now waiting for proper connections (I exited through the speaker hole on the stock back cover).
Brandon314159 said:
I am curious to see what sort of 'external' packs I can come up with and likely would limit my charging rate to 1200mA or so just to keep things 'happy'. I got slapped pretty hard over at droidforums by an admin and my post removed for this same info...glad to see the community here is more accepting of my discoveries. :cyclops:
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which mod did this to u? what reason did he give to do that to u? just want to know... cuz that sounds really uncool
myfishbear said:
which mod did this to u? what reason did he give to do that to u? just want to know... cuz that sounds really uncool
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I don't wanna get anyone in trouble or piss peeps off. PM me if ya want more details.
It was pretty uncool, all things considered.
Oh well, happier here already!
you know what u should add is a resistor and a on/off toggle for safety
Brandon314159 said:
- You cannot use those pins to measure battery voltage as they are an input to the charger... IE they do not tie directly to the battery. You would have to watch the battery voltage at the screws for the battery flex-cable mount.
- There are lots of notes about the battery voltage being 'high' by peoples viewpoints. If you search around, someone explains the difference in chemistry that the Droid 4 is using and that it does have a higher Vmax during bulk/absorption charge levels. I believe the summary was that it is a non-issue. They aren't trying to 'cheat' the battery into higher voltage for more cap...it's just simply how that chemistry wants to be charged. You'll have to google around to find it.
I am curious to see what sort of 'external' packs I can come up with and likely would limit my charging rate to 1200mA or so just to keep things 'happy'. I got slapped pretty hard over at droidforums by an admin and my post removed for this same info...glad to see the community here is more accepting of my discoveries. :cyclops:
-Also, the other two pins are data lines...not sure if In/out compatible but one is Batt Temp and the other is Communication (for determining battery type). The phone doesn't like having these pins futzed with (can cause reboots/lockups) so there is clearly something on the other end...but sounds like the protection is weak regarding input into the processor/etc.
Once I have my phone near a camera, I will photo my connection method/mods (no direct soldering in-case I have to warranty the phone for other issues). That gave me 6" pigtails of wire that I have hiding behind my cheap-o case right now waiting for proper connections (I exited through the speaker hole on the stock back cover).
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Very excited to see those photos. I can't imagine your post getting removed for that sort of information, that is a shame... Hardware mods are just as much fun as software mods, imho! Plus, they have the added bonus that there is a slight risk of explosion, something I err, enjoy
Brandon314159 said:
- You would have to watch the battery voltage at the screws for the battery flex-cable mount.
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Drat. I really didn't want to peal off the sticker... heh, maybe I could just punch through it with the needle probes and only leave 2 tiny holes .
There are lots of notes about the battery voltage being 'high' by peoples viewpoints. If you search around, someone explains the difference in chemistry that the Droid 4 is using and that it does have a higher Vmax during bulk/absorption charge levels. I believe the summary was that it is a non-issue. They aren't trying to 'cheat' the battery into higher voltage for more cap...it's just simply how that chemistry wants to be charged. You'll have to google around to find it.
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I have done a lot of googling and failed. I'm skeptical that I can't find any "new Li-ion chemistry". The only thing I did find was a pointer to an Anandtech article where the writer said he "heard" they were using a "new Li-ion chemistry" ... with no references or cites. In any event I agree it is mostly a non-issue for most everyone else. I figure they have it all designed for some target duty cycle -- probably about 1 year? maybe 2? Thing is, I plan to keep my phone for 4 or more years like all my past smart phones. The difference this time is that the battery is non-removeable (yes, I know it can be done with tools and some risk). I was hoping to find an app that would interface with the battery management and allow a configurable threshold for the "fully charged" cutoff. With a charging cutoff at about 90% I should be able to triple the life of my battery.
sigh... sorry for the hijack (but there isn't much on the actually battery operation, even around here).
Quick7135 said:
I was hoping to find an app that would interface with the battery management and allow a configurable threshold for the "fully charged" cutoff. With a charging cutoff at about 90% I should be able to triple the life of my battery.
sigh... sorry for the hijack (but there isn't much on the actually battery operation, even around here).
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drain the phone and charge it up in charging mode with the stock charger. this will calibrate your battery so it will charge to 100%
myfishbear said:
drain the phone and charge it up in charging mode with the stock charger. this will calibrate your battery so it will charge to 100%
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He wants to make it so it ONLY takes charges to 90%, to extend the duty cycle of the battery. Honestly, I would just not worry about it, and replace the battery as necessary.
Sent from my Amazon Kindle Fire using xda app-developers app
I put my reply over on this thread that you created, which seems to be more on-topic:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1856514
Cheers!
podspi said:
He wants to make it so it ONLY takes charges to 90%, to extend the duty cycle of the battery. Honestly, I would just not worry about it, and replace the battery as necessary.
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You're probably right but I'm not clear on the risks of damage to the hardware when prying out the non-replaceable battery.
Brandon314159 said:
I put my reply over on this thread that you created, which seems to be more on-topic:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1856514
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Thanks. and I do apologize (again) for the interruption here. It won't happen again.
Quick7135 said:
You're probably right but I'm not clear on the risks of damage to the hardware when prying out the non-replaceable battery.
Thanks. and I do apologize (again) for the interruption here. It won't happen again.
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I'd think you'd be at higher risk of damage playing with the software/firmware interface that controls battery charging than doing an actual battery swap.
It appears to be pretty easy: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motorola-Droid-4-Teardown/7759/1
No worries on cross posting...just figured better to keep it all over there where there is already a few replies on-topic.
Cheers,
BTW noticed today that the phone says "Charging - Connected to an inductive charging mat" when you connect up power to the back.
I will try to get a shot of the connection when I get home.
My USB port broke... would you think this would charge a completely dead battery.. thank you kindly for your time...
update this will charge a completely dead battery... took an OEM charger cut it open used the red and black... worked perfectly...
why do they call it common sense when only a few people have it...
EDIT:
Do the following at you're own risk.Even though it works for me and there is no logical reason it wouldn't work for you.
My wife got a new L7 couple of Weeks back and i have been paying with it every now and again.
As the battery on the OB is experiencing bad drain lately i thought to look for replacement. Tried other battery with no luck and than last night thought what the hell i will try the L7's battery.
Hell yeah ! Fits nicely ( but the OB battery had to be filled a bit to fit in the L7 , just in the right corner about 1mm on 1mm).
Now to the nice part. As it is a new battery the self drain is gone.
And it is 1700mAh
Although i will have to return it to my wife as she is gonna be in a shock as her phone is gonna be dead before tonight The big question for me is is the L9 battery the same size and would it fit as well .
I forgot to mention with the original battery the current drain is about 1% every 2 minutes .
But this is due to me using the phone a LOT. At least one and often two charges a day for year and a half so long gone the 300 charges which are supposed to retain 90% of the original charge.
can you take a picture of your p970 backcover battery?
Here goes the pics, sorry about the delay.
P.s. Pics are from the old trusty s8500 aka wave. L7 camera is crap
So L7 battery is 3.8 volt our p970 battery is 3.7 volt.Cant it be any damage on main board?
Wouldn't think so. As both mobiles work fine with swapped batteries
And during charging voltage is way higher anyway. Remember 5 volt charger
That's a nice find! Good job! Might buy a genuine L7 battery...
ogremount said:
My wife got a new L7 couple of Weeks back and i have been paying with it every now and again.
As the battery on the OB is experiencing bad drain lately i thought to look for replacement. Tried other battery with no luck and than last night thought what the hell i will try the L7's battery.
Hell yeah ! Fits nicely ( but the OB battery had to be filled a bit to fit in the L7 , just in the right corner about 1mm on 1mm).
Now to the nice part. As it is a new battery the self drain is gone.
And it is 1700mAh
Although i will have to return it to my wife as she is gonna be in a shock as her phone is gonna be dead before tonight The big question for me is is the L9 battery the same size and would it fit as well .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice info, thank you!
I am glad to share
But as for the L9 looks like different shape and contacts positions
Thanks gor info:thumbup:
sorry for my bad English
So is it safe despite the voltage difference?
So far so good. One day use and it is great. 4 hours + screen time compared to 2.5 (again worth repeating my original battery is degraded)
I even find data connection working better, but that might as well be fruit of my imagination.
Best part is my wife hasn't caught up yet .
George Jetson said:
So L7 battery is 3.8 volt our p970 battery is 3.7 volt.Cant it be any damage on main board?
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Yes. Don't use it. Just because something fits doesn't means it is supposed to work. For instance I am pretty sure if I try I can fit my phone in my mouth. Is that good? NO!
You won't notice it short term but long term it will bite you and Lg can refuse warranty if it's damaged due to incorrect use.
xonar_ said:
Yes. Don't use it. Just because something fits doesn't means it is supposed to work. For instance I am pretty sure if I try I can fit my phone in my mouth. Is that good? NO!
You won't notice it short term but long term it will bite you and Lg can refuse warranty if it's damaged due to incorrect use.
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super correct , if this was the deal lg simply would have included it at least in the models of today , but the main board will suffer on long terms of use :good:
Actually my neighbour is using razor xxx batery in his phone and that's half volt higher than his original battery.
The problem for the main board is not the voltage itself but the incoherent amperage and power consistence, and this battery is lg made so complies to their standard.
Again remember that the phone runs ok on charger which happens to be 4.8 volts without battery inserted.
*First post edited*
ogremount said:
Actually my neighbour is using razor xxx batery in his phone and that's half volt higher than his original battery.
The problem for the main board is not the voltage itself but the incoherent amperage and power consistence, and this battery is lg made so complies to their standard.
Again remember that the phone runs ok on charger without battery inserted.
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Of course it's not the voltage itself, but the increased voltage causes increase current and that increases heat output and that does damage your phone.
Try this yourself.
Create a two circuits with a two identical light bulbs. Use a battery one battery that is 1.5 Volts and use another thats 3 Volts. Which do you think will burn out quicker?
And the fact that it's 1700mAh doesn't necessarily mean it gives longer battery life it might just mean that it has a higher current output.
You can use that battery if you want. I wouldn't.
xonar_ said:
Of course it's not the voltage itself, but the increased voltage causes increase current and that increases heat output and that does damage your phone.
Try this yourself.
Create a two circuits with a two identical light bulbs. Use a battery one battery that is 1.5 Volts and use another thats 3 Volts. Which do you think will burn out quicker?
And the fact that it's 1700mAh doesn't necessarily mean it gives longer battery life it might just mean that it has a higher current output.
You can use that battery if you want. I wouldn't.
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It's 0.1v of diference, I don't think that could break the phone or something.
lean7 said:
It's 0.1v of diference, I don't think that could break the phone or something.
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The heat output of the CPU is directly proportional to Voltage squared and since the change in temperature is equal to the Heat Ouput minus Heat Disipation the result will be a lot hotter than you think. The hotter it runs the higher the resistance in the circuits the more power you have to us to keep it running stable. Can you see why even a small difference in voltage makes a big difference.
Hello.
With Current Widget I measured voltage during charging... In 100% it is over 4.35V what is, I think overcharged, because Li-po or Li-ion have max voltage 4.2V per cell. I have rooted phone, but stock ROM and stock kernel. Can rooted firmware change charge specs. or this is way how SONY damaging their batteries so people have to buy every year/two new phone or new battery?
Thanks for answers.
It's 0.15V of difference, it do not hurts or anything. Sony do not plan to ruin your phone. You are just paranoid on Stock Rom...LOL...
I'm working with Li-po batteries in RC planes and I can tell you, that 0.15V overcharged can significantly decrease life of your battery. But it is easy way how to increase capacity of battery, but it is very bad way.
So, those limits are controlled by Kernel, yes?? And when I flashed different FW to root my phone, it didn't changed kernel, so I probably has stock kernel?? Thats the main question for me, because with previous experiences I rather stay at stock kernel and stock ROM before flashing anything custom.
Peppyk said:
I'm working with Li-po batteries in RC planes and I can tell you, that 0.15V overcharged can significantly decrease life of your battery. But it is easy way how to increase capacity of battery, but it is very bad way.
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Ok, also you should know that the test where you get from that 0.15V can be non Right.
Peppyk said:
So, those limits are controlled by Kernel, yes??
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Don't know.
Peppyk said:
And when I flashed different FW to root my phone, it didn't changed kernel, so I probably has stock kernel??
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Yes.
Peppyk said:
Thats the main question for me, because with previous experiences I rather stay at stock kernel and stock ROM before flashing anything custom.
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You can stay on Stock Rom and flash a Custom Kernel, for that you have to Unlock Your Bootloader, and play with the settings or anything to undervolt the charging, but I think is not that simple.
On more than one occasion I've seen you post and give horrible information, in most cases, very wrong because you don't know any better. If you don't know something, DON'T COMMENT ON IT.
0.15V is a big difference when it comes to batteries as small as ours. In a car battery, sure, 0.15V isn't that big of a deal, it's less than 0.01% of a difference, something that can naturally occur with impurities in the lead/acid components, magnetic shift or hitting a speed bump too fast. However, on a battery the size that's in our phones? That's a 3% difference. 3% variance is MASSIVE in relative sizes.
I'm not saying don't help anyone, but don't fake answers in hopes someone clicks your thanks button.
On topic:
In the past, have you flashed a 3rd party kernel at any time, for fun or testing, or for daily driver use? (Even if you're stock now)
How are you plugging the device in - USB port on a computer? USB port on the side of a surge protector? If it's a computer port, is it USB 2 or 3?
Are you using the stock charging block and stock cable that came with the phone? A 3rd party solution like Belkin, etc.?
If you have access to one, plug into a car cigarette lighter, either Sony or 3rd party, do you see a change in the overcharge values? What about a magnetic charging cable?
Have you opened up the phone and tinkered with anything?
Just going out on a limb here but have you checked the app is actually accurate!!
Peppyk said:
Hello.
With Current Widget I measured voltage during charging... In 100% it is over 4.35V what is, I think overcharged, because Li-po or Li-ion have max voltage 4.2V per cell. I have rooted phone, but stock ROM and stock kernel. Can rooted firmware change charge specs. or this is way how SONY damaging their batteries so people have to buy every year/two new phone or new battery?
Thanks for answers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only way you're going to be sure if that voltage is accurate is if you use a multi meter, apps only read what the phone reads and outputs, which isn't always accurate, try getting CPUZ HW monitor for your computer and check your 12V rail, you'll find that it's nowhere near accurate whereas other apps will give an accurate reading, with this being the case there is no way of knowing which one is accurate and which one isn't, a multi meter is the only way. But in all fairness you're probably going to be using your phone for around 2 years so with that in mind does it really matter?
dladz said:
The only way you're going to be sure if that voltage is accurate is if you use a multi meter, apps only read what the phone reads and outputs, which isn't always accurate, try getting CPUZ HW monitor for your computer and check your 12V rail, you'll find that it's nowhere near accurate whereas other apps will give an accurate reading, with this being the case there is no way of knowing which one is accurate and which one isn't, a multi meter is the only way. But in all fairness you're probably going to be using your phone for around 2 years so with that in mind does it really matter?
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Thank you.
eclyptos said:
Thank you.
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Lol you are most welcome sir
Wiltron said:
On more than one occasion I've seen you post and give horrible information, in most cases, very wrong because you don't know any better. If you don't know something, DON'T COMMENT ON IT.
0.15V is a big difference when it comes to batteries as small as ours. In a car battery, sure, 0.15V isn't that big of a deal, it's less than 0.01% of a difference, something that can naturally occur with impurities in the lead/acid components, magnetic shift or hitting a speed bump too fast. However, on a battery the size that's in our phones? That's a 3% difference. 3% variance is MASSIVE in relative sizes.
I'm not saying don't help anyone, but don't fake answers in hopes someone clicks your thanks button.
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Click to collapse
Take it easy dude, on more than one occasion i've seen him give perfect advice and to keep things real i've seen mods and elite developers make bad decisions and give bad advice out because they simply thought they knew, give him a break eh! Theres ways of saying things to people if you have a problem, like not doing it publicly, if you voice your concerns properly then no harm no foul, personally if you'd have just said that to me i'd be annoyed.
Just a heads up.
And as i've already said about the voltage offsets which have been talked about, in all fairness it's a negligent difference and won't matter in the overall scheme of things.